You're listening to Roundtable, with myself, Hyung.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Yuxuan in the studio.
Coming up, some say your position in the birth order shapes your career, intelligence, and even personality.
But how much of this is science and how much is stereotype?
Let's explore the fascinating and sometimes contentious impact of birth order.
Where do you stand in your family lineup?
And does it matter?
And your voice matters, and we would love to hear it in our heart -to -heart segment.
Got a question? Something you're itching to share?
Fire up that voice memo and hit us up at Roundtable Podcast at QQ .com.
Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable Podcast on Apple Podcast Xiao Yuzhou and the podcast platform of your choice.
Now let's move on to the next topic discussion today.
Are you the first born child in the middle?
Or perhaps you're the only child.
Each comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages, of course.
But have you ever considered that where on the pecking order you're born may have an influence on your career prospects?
And there is research to support and debunk this theory.
And today we'll discuss it all.
So what do we know about the birth order of children and what difference that makes?
Yeah, so many studies conducted on this, and we're going to have a look at a handful of studies today.
Where are we, though, in this child order?
I am the youngest of three children.
And I'm the only boy.
So I have two older sisters, and I was the third and final child and the only boy.
That sounds like maybe you've had a pretty good childhood growing up.
Advantages and disadvantages?
Are you getting spoiled?
By two big sisters?
Listen, we're here to talk about studies related to birth order.
How about you? Oh, I am the only child.
I'm the only child, too.
Oh, two only children and the third and youngest.
Well, yeah, for those born in the 1980s and 90s in China, most likely, especially if you live in cities, then you're the only child.
Only child, got it.
All right, well, we'll hear these theories and then we'll see how they apply to us if we agree or disagree.
Like I said, so many studies conducted on the topic of what they call birth order effect.
And the birth order effect says that earlier born children receive a higher education and higher wages.
Comparing two siblings, for example, the greater the difference of the birth order, the greater the relative benefit to the older child.
Meaning if there's a large age gap between the two children, that's a bigger benefit for the first born child.
There was one study.
So we'll get into the studies now.
One study from Life Course Center.
And it suggested the advantages of first born siblings start really, really early in life.
As young as zero and up to three years old.
What they observed in that study was parents changing their behavior as the second or third child is born.
And what happens when those extra children are born is that there's a less cognitive stimulation to the children who are born later.
Does that mean they put less effort?
So this is how they kind of define that.
Cognitive stimulation is a very sciency term.
It's very simple. It means things like playing with your kids or reading with your kids or singing together.
Those things are the core components of early childhood stimulation.
Something they refer to as ECS.
And ECS can improve a young child's ability to think and communicate and connect with others.
So the suggestion from this study is that with each extra child that's born the parents spend less and less time on their early childhood stimulation.
On purpose? No. Not on purpose.
I mean, this explanation is really easy to understand.
According to their study, parental lessons from past experiences and also less resources.
Time. Energy. Think about that.
When your first child is born, you have nothing but time to spend with that one child.
You have nothing but money to spend on that one child.
But then the second child is born.
Well, automatically, your time is divided and your money is going to be divided.
Then your third child is born.
Your time gets divided even further and your resources get divided even further.
And that's why they say there's less attention paid to the second and third children.
That reminds me of a couple of social media sayings surrounding all these different platforms here in China.
One is along the lines of you raise...
Okay, these are probably parents of the born in the 1980s or maybe younger, I suppose.
So they say that they raised the first child, according to textbook.
And since 2016, Chinese parents eligible can have two kids.
And then I suppose for the second kid, they say, oh, you know, we've had the whole experience or the early experience already.
And then the second child, we Sanyang or go free range parenting and just let it be, because it's like you've learned that the baby can endure certain things and you don't need to shower all attention on it.
And also when you have two, your attention is divided.
So according to that theory, because of that shift in parental behavior, this sets the later born children on a lower path for cognitive development and even academic achievement later in life.
And those things can have a lasting impact even on their adult outcomes.
That's that study. So do you think that the first born advantage or premium is true or are there other studies that defy that?
Well, there are studies that support it saying that the first born child, the advantages start almost immediately here.
Here's another study from 2016.
This is from Scientific American, and they investigated when birth order differences appear and then how they evolve from birth to adolescence.
This was a bit of a bigger study.
They involved 5 ,000 children in the United States.
And their findings suggest that birth order differences can start from zero to three.
That is exactly the same as the other studies results.
But they saw an effect on birth order on measures of the physical and social development of kids.
They increased slightly with age.
They showed up in a wide array of test scores, verbal test scores, reading, math, comprehension abilities as well.
So there are other studies that support this theory.
They explored in that one as well changes in the parental behavior when the second and third kids come along.
So those two studies, they support each other.
I understand, as you listed so many examples, and maybe parents will think, yes, we are experienced parents now, maybe we may not be raising a kid by the textbook, like.
But what I saw, all like I saw some of the Chinese TV dramas showing people how they raise kids.
Most likely, the first kid will be the one who have that kind of most of their educational or their resources that they can have.
And the second child, let's say the youngest one first.
The youngest one is the one that gets spoiled because the parents know that this is our youngest one.
We need to put most of our efforts on this kid.
But the second one is most likely the unlucky one because they can be, you know, they are wearing the shirts and clothes of the oldest.
Hand me downs. Yeah.
And then, but the youngest one is one that gets spoiled, so they will not wear the old clothes.
So the second one is always taking all of these burdens and pressures of their family and their taking responsibilities of, you know, going between the oldest one and the youngest one.
And it's funny because this is kind of a, you said those are Chinese dramas that are depicting this.
This is a worldwide thing.
It's been ingrained in us.
And that's what it says on the World Economic Forum website as well.
This is from 2015. I was digging around from year to year, from decade to decade to see if we could find similarities or differences.
And this is what it says on the World Economic Forum website.
We've all had it ingrained.
Oldest siblings are ambitious, responsible, overachievers.
Youngest siblings are creative rebels.
And kids in the middle, they get the worst of both, but they're pretty easy going.
So this is from the World Economic Forum website.
But there's one complicating detail and this leads us to our next study that we'll look at.
This is from the University of Illinois.
And according to their study, none of that seems to be true.
The number one child is ambitious, responsible, the overachiever.
The youngest child is the creative rebel.
In that study, they wanted to find out if there was any connection between being first born and becoming a leader later in life.
So what did they find?
Well, the link between birth order and personality, which is connected to becoming a leader, is virtually non -existent, according to them.
And they say that this study was the biggest in history.
They looked at 377 ,000 high school students, and they took into account their family structure and their birth order, their IQ, their displays of various personality traits like confidence and leadership and impulsiveness.
They even looked at their cleanliness skills or habits, which I thought was kind of interesting.
And while they did find differences between first borns and their younger siblings, true to stereotype, they have higher IQs and they tend to be slightly more conscientious or extroverted and agreeable.
They said that the differences, and this is the big finding from this study, the difference was so miniscule that you wouldn't even notice.
They came up with a number to describe the difference, 0 .02.
Now that doesn't mean anything to us, but they explained it like this.
If you put those two people next to each other and you talk with them, you would notice no difference whatsoever.
Okay, I'm glad there's this kind of study that exists as well.
And I suppose we're all a product of our time and also our own upbringing and the general climate that we grow up in.
And if you look at, let's say China, maybe in the 1980s, or let's say before the 1980s, I think this birth order story would have told, would have painted a very different picture.
For example, the oldest sibling being the ambitious and the overachiever or whatnot.
I see so many personal anecdotes as well as portrayed in movies and novels that totally defies that conclusion.
The big brother, the person or the big sister is often the biggest sacrificer of the family.
Because in our culture, when you're the oldest of the siblings, then you're kind of expected to, you know, if there's a big manto, a steam bun, you give it to the younger siblings.
You break it up and give it to them.
If there's something nice or there's like an opportunity and you have like three, four siblings, younger brothers and sisters who are waiting to be fed, you give the opportunity to them.
And for the oldest sibling, often you're told from the very beginning that you should minimize the self and then you give instead of receive.
So when I first saw this, these studies and Steve, you very vividly portrayed them to us, immediately I felt, wow, there is a big difference.
But maybe in today's modern society, we see a closing of that gap of that big difference because with more disposable income with parents who are more, who probably put in more thought when they have babies in today's modern society in China, then maybe they will think more about not making one kid
sacrifice for the other or whatnot.
And maybe we'll see more of this.
Okay, we'll raise the first one by the textbook and we learn by our experience and the second one, or if the third one comes along, then we learn from our experiences and make it fair for the kids.
I think that's so crucial when you have more than one.
Yeah. The studies, when they talk about the fact that the second and third and fourth and fifth children in the family don't get the allocation of resources to them and that can hurt their studies in the future.
It doesn't mean, and they talked about this, it doesn't mean that the oldest child is predestined for success or to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.
And this is a very important thing I think for parents to take away from our chat today is that if you're looking at your first born child with higher expectations, that's not a fair thing to do because it doesn't, oftentimes it can work out that way, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it will 100
% work out that way.
Yeah. We listed so many examples that maybe there are some traits that three kids or these kids' personality may change according to their birth order.
And maybe, as you said, some counterarguments are arguing that this is not just not making sense at all.
But I think it is just based on their family background.
Of course, some family background are like, these parents are just subtly interesting their eldest child to take more responsibility to take care of their younger siblings.
And maybe some of their families just treat them equally.
So that is how these traits may differ.
But most likely what we're talking about is these youngest or the middle child and oldest one may have these kind of traits.
I'll leave you with one final study here.
And this is from 2020 from Science Alert.
And their research suggests that being a first born child, it doesn't have quite as much of an influence on career choices.
They focused on career choices in this study.
There was a lot of suggestion in research before that said the first child would be more of a leader, more of a CEO, more of a high level management position.
Those types of white collar careers.
But they studied 3 ,800 Americans over 50 years.
So this is a 50 year study.
And they found that, yep, there is a connection between status attainment and academic achievement with the first born kids.
But nothing connected to the type of jobs that people end up doing.
So that very popular idea that first borns are more scientific in their career choices, meaning doctors or engineers or things like that.
It's not necessarily backed up by data at all.
So if your first born child tells you that they want to be an artist or they want to pursue something creative, don't be surprised by that.
All right. And you shouldn't, don't you have examples of some really famous people who are actually the middle child?
So I suppose the mid child, middle child syndrome doesn't always work.
As we can see, that's also some analysis on the personality of these middle child, such as the some of the world's richest persons like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.
They are the middle children of their families.
All right. And we'll end there.
A birth order may influence us, but it's how we define ourselves within these roles that truly matters and can determine our own destiny.
Coming up, let's have a moment of heart to heart.
You ask, we answer.
Roundtable, heart to heart.
This week, who's got a question for Roundtable?
Hello, Roundtable team.
This is Mona, a longtime listener and huge fan of your show.
I've been following Roundtable, especially He Yang, for nearly a decade.
Your voices and hosting styles have been a source of inspiration for me, particularly when I need to lead meetings at work.
I have a question that's been bothering me lately.
I am preparing for a presentation and I am quite nervous about speaking in front of people, especially to foreign colleagues with Indian accents who speak very quickly.
I'm worried that I might not understand what they are talking about.
Do you have any tips for staying calm during public speaking and for better understanding for speakers with unfamiliar accents?
This is my first time reaching out and I am excited at the possibility of hearing your advice on ear.
When might I be able to tune in for your response?
In the end, I just want to say that it's amazing to reflect on how much you influence my speaking style and confidence.
Thank you for being such wonderful host and for inspiring me all this year.
Wow, Mona, first off, thank you so much for sticking with us for almost a decade.
Where have you been?
You deserve a loyalty card or something like that.
And I should be the one thanking you.
It's incredibly humbling to hear that we've had an impact on the way you speak and you think I suppose I mean I hope that's in a good way.
And now about presentation anxiety.
Believe me, even the best of us feel those jitters and a little secret here.
I'm always so nervous before getting on stage to host an event and even sitting in this chair hosting this show.
It took me years to sort of not feel like my heart is going to jump out of my throat.
And I can only tell myself to do my best.
So trust me, I've had my fair share of slip ups, some so cringe worthy.
I can't bring myself to rewatch the videos and just the thought that they're all on the Internet.
It just really bugs me.
But you know what? It always turns out OK and the world doesn't end and here I am still at it.
So I think the key is to learn from your mistakes, keep calm and carry on.
And Steve, as well as you shouldn't, I'm sure we'll give you more tips on how to stay calm and keep carrying it forward.
What do you think you should?
Yeah, as he said, actually, I am still having that kind of anxiety before every show, to be honest.
And I think the pressure comes from also for Mona, I think I was I suppose that your pressure comes from you're afraid of, you cannot speak perfectly.
So what I want to say is that you don't need to sound like or act like a native speaker to be effective, you know, aim for clear pronunciation and simple sentence structures.
And it's more important than your audience understands you than that you use complex vocabulary or grammar and also practice regularly by, you know, rehearsing aloud.
Also recording yourself and engaging in formal conversations to build your confidence is a way to train you to be brave enough to speak publicly.
And a mirror practice practice is a way I think.
Oh mirror mirror practice.
Practice in front of the mirror to work on your body language and your confidence, something like that, and about the accent.
You know, spend time listening to a variety of English accents, especially the ones that in your work you can find videos, podcasts and movies featuring these accents to get familiar with their rhythm and intonation.
I think accents is something that people may care the most, but it is just inaudible there and it can appear to anybody.
And yeah, just stick with it.
Yeah, I understand, Moda, because if your teacher was, say, from North America and all of your study was on North American English in that style of pronunciation or conversely, if your teacher was from the UK or Australia and all the media content you studied was from the UK or Australia or Scotland or wherever,
then you become familiar with one particular type of accent.
All it takes is getting used to a different type of accent.
So the more you speak with your coworkers, the more time you spend with them, the more familiar.
And I think this would happen very quickly.
You'll become familiar with their style of speaking and you'll be having an easier time understanding them.
There's no one correct answer or one correct accent in English.
There's a ton of different accents and they all work for sure.
In terms of your fear of public speaking, I'm going to give you maybe a piece of advice that doesn't seem to make sense in the beginning.
I think you have to care, but only to a certain degree.
I think there's a balance between caring and not caring.
And what I mean by that, if you're caring so much that it's affecting your confidence or your ability to give a presentation, sprinkle in a little bit of, you know what, it's just my work.
I'm going to do my best.
And beyond that, whatever, I don't care.
Not too much of the don't care, but also not too much of the care.
If you can walk that fine line between caring and not caring to me, that's striking the perfect balance of giving a great presentation and feeling confident and sounding confident when you're speaking those words to your audience as well.
It's easy to be afraid of people, particularly when people are staring at you.
But if you sprinkle in that, I don't really care if they're staring at me.
I don't really care.
I don't know these people that well.
They're not my friends and family.
A little bit of that attitude will take you a long way.
Yeah. And also, I think that also applies to the conversations with your coworkers.
You should not be afraid of asking for repetition if you don't understand them.
Just it's OK and politely ask them to repeat or rephrase.
Just say, I'm sorry, could you say that again?
And it's totally fine.
Yeah, exactly. And shows that you care.
Yeah. And just bear this in mind, everyone's too busy wondering if their socks match to notice if you're nervous.
So people don't care that much about what we do.
Although when we see, oh, they're looking at us, then.
That's so scary. But actually, they're all just thinking about other stuff.
Maybe. I'm sure they're listening to your presentation, Mona, but just not as.
Yeah, not as critical, not as critical as you may think they are.
And certainly practice, practice, practice, practice some more, because knowing your topic, getting organized, knowing what you're going to speak, even if you sometimes maybe get off track.
But if you know the material so well and then you'd be able to continue doing it and pick it up just at ease.
And I think that all really helps.
Yeah. And by the way, Mona, we look forward to your next message in twenty thirty five.
Send up more messages than one every 10 years of listening to Roundtable, please.
Yes. And well, certainly, I hope our show will have that longevity.
Yeah. And that's only with the support of our lovely listeners.
We love hearing from you and we appreciate your thoughts if you enjoy what you hear or have a question or topic you like us to dive in.
Don't hesitate to reach out.
Just shoot us an email or voice memo at a roundtable podcast at QQ Dotcom.
We can't wait to hear from you.
And that brings us to the end of today's show.
Thank you so much, Steve Hatherly and Yushuan for joining the discussion.
I'm Hae Young. We will see you next time.
