So, from our earliest days, we're taught to be humble.
Humility is good, we're told.
But what if it wasn't?
Or what if humility had its place, but it also came with a potential dark side?
One that potentially caused both us and those around us harm?
This is one of the rich topics that I explore in today's conversation with Joe Hudson, a co -founder of the Art of Accomplishment, sought -after teacher, and a legendary coach coach to CEOs and top leaders at companies like OpenAI, Alphabet, Apple, and so many others, Joe has this extraordinary ability to help you see what's been invisible in your life, to break free from self -limiting patterns and live with greater freedom and fulfillment.
It's kind of like he's that one friend who sees past the shields, even the ones you don't realize that you put up, then helps you lower them, see what's real, and walk back into a life that feels so much more connected and alive.
In this thought -provoking conversation, we drop into a profoundly liberating perspective on humility and authenticity.
One that just might challenge us to let go of the need to think less of ourselves and instead think of ourselves less.
Fully occupying our place in the world without having to shrink to make others feel comfortable or conform to some dysfunctional norms?
And Joe also shares some eye -opening insights on allowing and even welcoming difficult emotions without resistance on holding goals lightly to remain open to life's surprising solutions and the transformative shift of self -improvement to radical self -discovery.
So excited to share this conversation with you.
I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
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headspace so you know that moment when someone asks how are you and you automatically respond good without even thinking about it i started wondering what if we could actually mean it what do we say good even after decades of meditation practice i have found headspace brings something really special to my daily routine their evening wind down sessions have deepened my practice in ways that still surprise me and one of the things i love about headspace is how it meets you exactly where you are so whether you're brand new to meditation or have been practicing for years there is something for you.
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It's fun to be hanging out with a new friend.
You and I spent some time in the mountains yesterday.
Yeah. Hiking around, really enjoying ourselves.
And as we were talking, we're kind of going along and chatting a little bit about what we might chat about today.
And you teed up something that's been on your mind for a while now that I know you haven't really shared a whole lot about.
recently it's this sort of like thoughts around the notion of humility and before i try and even describe what we were diving into i'm going to turn it over to you because it's not what i expected within the first 30 seconds or so of you speaking right and we're going to dive into this so take me there i think the original thought process and humility for people and for me in in my experiences humility is thinking less of yourself and and then somewhere along the line there's this idea that came into my that it's not thinking less of myself but it's thinking of myself less like just literally
less thoughts about myself and now in my journey what's happening is this phrase was taught to me and I think it's from the I think it's from the Jewish tradition that humility is I think the quote is like taking your God -given place in the world and and that's been really hitting me deeply right now in my own journey of of there's a calling and you follow the calling.
Even if it takes you somewhere big or small, significant or insignificant.
And to actually have the moment of recognition that you hear the call and if you don't follow it, that it ends in pain.
And if you do follow it, even if it's not particularly the thing that you want to be doing, that it always ends up in some place where you needed to go some place that other people need you to go needs a not quite the right word but something like that so i mean it's so many curiosities around this um one so when most people think about humility me included yeah right the the thing that comes to mind is almost the exact opposite of something like a calling of of rising up, of saying, I'm here to do this thing.
And it's also, I own it.
There's some ownership of the process, the experience, and the outcome.
You know, this steps into a place where when most people think of humility, or at least me, I think of the opposite.
I think of the pulling back, the, oh, well, you know, it wasn't me.
It was something channeling through me.
It was everyone who came before me.
So it's a bit of a contrarian take on the concept.
Yeah. I think that the reason I said it in the order I did is because I do think it is an order of operations thing.
I think that there's a really important time to recognize that you're not responsible.
So, for instance, the way we think about ego typically is somebody who's like, I can do anything.
That's like big ego, right?
You've got a big ego.
But the way I think about ego is ego is anything that you use to define yourself in a limited way.
And so a lot of people can take an insult better than they can take a compliment.
So you can say to somebody, oh, you didn't do that right there.
Okay, well, what can I do about it?
But if you say, wow, you just changed my life.
They're like, yeah, no, that's okay.
It wasn't just me. There's this, I'm raising my hand over here.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And if you actually let that through, if you actually let a compliment through and you don't call the other person a liar which is basically what you're doing when you're saying no no no it wasn't that's not true if you actually let that all the way through it's in our course work i see it all the time is that that it dissolves people's ego it like it opens up so much energy for their system but there is a recognition of doing both things so for instance this morning i was on a call with some of the people i've been working with for a long time And we were doing this exercise of letting compliments
in, and we were looking at different ways to block the compliments.
And one of them was deflection.
One of the ways to block a compliment was deflection.
So somebody gave me the compliment.
My job was to deflect.
And they're like, your work has changed my life.
And my deflection was, it wasn't just me.
It was like all the teachers before me.
And as soon as he heard that, he saw, oh, that can be both a recognition of something greater than you, which is lovely, but it can also be a deflection.
For instance, if I look at any thought that I've ever had, I didn't choose any of them.
I never said, I'm going to choose to have this thought and then I had the thought, yet I call them mine.
I don't call them gifts.
I don't call them something beyond my control.
And the recognition that they are is a really really important recognition because it allows you to not be so in control or so responsible.
There's also a really important moment where you realize, Oh, I have choice.
I can control my destiny and I can choose to not have those kinds of thoughts, you know?
So both of them are really necessary.
The way that I think about it is that the hand is always like this.
Our hand is always like this.
For those who are listening, Joe just started with a closed head and an open palm.
Yeah. Both of them, if they're always like that, they're crippled.
And so you really want that flexibility.
And so there is a way to deflect humility.
There's a way to not be humble in the, it was all me.
And there's a way of not being humble in the, it really had nothing to do with me.
Because if you actually allow it in that it does have something to do with you, there's a a heartbreak a love that has to be accepted there's a an ego destruction that has to be allowed if you're going to really let it in i mean it's interesting also right because when you deflect you're essentially denying the person who might be offering you some praise some compliment yeah maybe thanks yeah you're denying them the feeling of it landing yeah like and And that's a gift for someone.
I mean, like Adam Grant talks about this.
There's all this research on what's commonly called the giver's glow.
We actually get a hit when we're generous, when we're kind, whether we say something, we give something, whatever it may be.
And when you deflect and you don't allow that to land, it's almost like we're unintentionally doing a little bit of micro harm to the person who's trying to be kind to us.
Yeah. So while we were doing this exercise with the five forms of resisting the compliment right there we had these five forms and while we were doing it I noticed I wanted to start giving backhanded compliments I wanted to start like not giving compliments because what's happening there is like there's people who really want to be seen really want to be appreciated and they're not getting it but every time they get it they don't let it in they're deflecting it so people don't want to continue to give it to them and so it's it's beyond just hurting them it's hurting yourself because you're setting
up an ecosystem where people aren't going to see you or acknowledge you or how give you those compliments and so it's a it's a double harm that happens and it makes people a little pissed you know hey I just gave you a compliment and you're just and you're spitting on it and a gentle spit but it's a spit you know yeah I mean we're wired in such weird ways around this stuff because there's like a a social code yeah that says well we're not we're kind of like supposed to answer that way in a way like that's you know like and in especially in different cultures you know australians tall puppy syndrome
you know it's like they're sort of it changes by culture too right and even family culture you know local culture whatever it may be it's going to change and and then as you're describing this i'm remembering i think it was snoop dogg who was like receiving like uh maybe maybe a Grammy or something like that.
And he got up and maybe it was MTV Music, whatever it may have been.
And he's like, I would like to thank me.
I mean, he goes through all the reasons why he wants to thank his younger self effectively for not giving up, for not listening to the news and all this stuff.
And it's like the exact opposite.
It's just like, not only am I going to let it land, I'm going to give it to myself and then let it land.
But your similar point about there's a difference between having it given to you and and receiving it is key and i meditate every morning and towards the very end i'll just do like a little micro version of a meta meditation like yeah yeah i'll say yeah um yeah like may you live with ease may be safe may be healthy yeah um may you feel loved and the reason i don't say may you be loved is because you may be loved yeah but if you're not allowing it to land, it kind of doesn't matter.
Yeah. So yeah, two things on that.
So the first one that hits me is you are being loved.
Like if you actually just pay attention, my experience of reality now is that like the whole universe is trying to love me and waiting for me to let my heart crack open enough to, to acknowledge that that's what's happening and when i really look at you know now working with tens of thousands of people i can almost boil it all down to like so much pain is just the fact that people aren't letting the love in so that's one aspect the other aspect that happens is one of the things our mind says if we let in the compliment or if we're if we're letting ourselves be the tall poppy one of the the things
is that we're scared that we're going to use that power to hurt people and so part of my job is to work with really powerful people and what I notice is that if a really powerful person hasn't let in the fact that they have done this that they are powerful that they are capable to really actually fully let it in then they're far more likely to get dangerous hmm taking a deeper into that yeah so you know you could take you know a famous person who's incredibly rich really successful and yet they're lying about video games about like how good they are in video games as an example so like what what is that what's
going on there and it's because they're trying to feed a hungry ghost that they're enough that they're capable that they're deserving of love.
They're trying to fill that ghost. But every time they're fed, they're not digesting it.
They're chewing it and spitting it out because they're not receiving the compliment.
They're not actually acknowledging God's intended place for them.
And so they'll think that it's a better place, maybe, to protect themselves.
Or they'll think they haven't done enough yet.
They're still catching up at 40.
There's all sorts of ways in which the mind plays a game, but all of it is not actually the acknowledgement of this is what's up.
This is what's real.
I have created a billion dollar business.
I am creating a technology that'll change the world and not very many people could do it.
And meanwhile, from the outside looking in, everything is astonishing, but the ghost is getting hungrier and hungrier and hungrier and starving.
Exactly. So they have to do more and more to prove to themselves that they're valuable or that they have control or that they have have influence and it becomes incredibly destructive.
And it's very, it's hard for a lot of my clients because most clients who want to work with me aren't, you know, in the part of their cycle where they're saying, you know, I'm not good now.
I got to drive like da, da, da.
They're in the people saying, Oh, I got to be really humble to protect not becoming that other person that I see.
And then for them to realize, Oh, this is part of doing the actual humble thing is to acknowledge it in a way that breaks your heart and that's the thing is it you can acknowledge it with a deflection yeah i'm a i'm a world -class teacher nobody can coach as good as me or i am one of the top one percent coaches and that's all like the way i'm doing that is deflection because i'm not letting it break my heart i'm not acknowledging that there is also a gift in this that is not within my control and so it's really both of those two things it's allowing both the personal and the non -personal and at the same
time which creates real humility because if you can dismiss it all your ghost is still hungry if you can't dismiss any of it you can't say it is all a gift and i am incredibly fortunate or that life is a dream come true that i never thought possible both of those things are necessary for the heartbreak which is the disintegration of the ego go so take me into the heartbreak side of this how do we allow it to break our hearts yeah so first just most people resist this idea of heartbreak like oh i don't want my heart to be broken my experience is that we run from that experience we don't want to
feel all the time right what we're actually so it's heart break is heartbreaking open and so what it's it's literally saying okay i have to expand my my ability to love has to expand to include this thing right i should work out more i'm chubby can i love that how much does my heart have to break open to expand to love that to love both the fact that i'm chubby and also to expand band to love the thing that's saying that i'm chubby and that requires just a like a crack in your system to do it as a matter of fact i'm sure somebody's listening to that like i can't i can't love that voice what do
you mean i'm sure a lot of people are listening to this and say like dude now you just totally lost me right it's like literally that voice has been in my head and i've been doing everything i can for all the waking hours of my life to try and snuff it out yeah i've been going to therapy to change its mind i've been trying to extinguish it because because that is the voice of harm, is the way a lot of people accept it.
Absolutely. Yeah, and it is.
They're not wrong about it.
However, that which you resist persists.
And all of what you just described is resistance.
And it absolutely, some of it might be necessary, actually, because again, this is an order of operations thing.
And I'll go into that in a second.
But at the end of the day, yeah, you've been doing all that stuff for 20 years.
And guess what? It's still there.
so you're just doing the crazy thing by repeating something that doesn't work um my experience is that so i mean we have this week -long thing that we do which is all about changing the negative voice in your head and we get like a standard deviation change and in the positive direction less negative self -talk and we have looked at lots and lots of exercises exercises and experiments that one can run.
My experience is curiosity, far more powerful than management.
What makes it say it that way?
How does it feel in my system?
What's the somatic response?
What's its really good intention behind it?
What makes it manage me like an idiot?
What makes it manage me good and sometimes and not good?
There's so many questions and to really actually be attuned and listening to it that's that's one thing that really helps at some point you have to get really angry at it because it's really hard to love something that you feel dominates you or that you feel oppresses you if you have the feeling that something oppresses you then it's really hard to learn to love that but once you realize like oh you have choice you can dominate and not pay attention to it then there's this the space for love to occur but the biggest trick is just how you respond to it and so i'll give you a simple we could do
this right now if you want but you if somebody just closes their eyes and listens to the negative self -talk and every time it says something that's mean or that that you wouldn't say to somebody else or that you wouldn't say to somebody you love and your response is ouch ouch. Just sit there.
Sit there for 20 minutes and just say, ouch, every time it says something.
And what you'll notice is it just gets quieter and quieter and quieter.
Or you can say things like, oh, I see that you're really scared and I'm right here with you.
I'm not leaving you every time the voice says something.
So there's a thousand experiments that you can run about how how am I going to respond to the voice in the head?
And what you notice is the way that you respond to it, just like the way I respond to you creates a different relationship.
If I yell at you every time we're on a podcast, we're having a different relationship than if I'm, and so it's the same thing with the negative self -talk.
So if you have a thought that comes into your head, let's relate it back to humility.
Somebody's like, you did an incredible job with this project that you're working on.
Yeah. Right. My immediate response to them is, Yeah.
Well, it was just the team.
Like I literally just did like what I needed to do.
It's just, and then the self -talk that's going on in my head immediately is you're really incompetent.
You're riding on the coattails of everybody else who made this happen.
Right. And you have no business being here.
Right. Yeah. Right.
So like, and that's a voice that a lot of people have. Yeah.
Right. So your, your invitations are, what if you just sat there, let the voice in.
And every time it said that to you, ouch, ouch, that hurts.
Yeah. yeah give me some other yeah ways to respond and curious i see how scared you are and i'm right here with you uh you're absolutely right you're totally totally i hunt i cannot deny that i'm riding on the coattails of others and i don't belong to be here that it's all a gift i'm with you or hey how would it be to manage me a little bit differently or go fuck yourself i don't care like the modality is on monday i'm going to try to respond to it and i'm going to try this experiment i'm going to respond to it in this way and see how it reacts it's all about wonder still on tuesday i'm going
to react to it this way i'm just running experiments with it i'm learning to understand it the thing about negative self -talk generally it does self -improvement rather than self -awareness self -discovery and self -improvement is a lot less effective than self discovery.
So we've all been telling ourselves we should be doing something for a decade that we haven't been doing it.
We've all been telling ourselves, here's all the things that I have to do to improve that haven't improved.
Rather than being in self -discovery, actually trying to understand ourselves deeply.
And when you really understand yourself deeply, it just changes.
The same way that once I understand how to talk into a microphone, I speak into a microphone differently.
the way that once I understand a camera I don't need to tell myself be a better cameraman you know I just understand the camera and it's the same thing with ourselves we think that self -abuse is the way to have a better relationship with ourselves but it's actually self -understanding and we have all these fears of oh if I if I give up the self -abuse I'm just going to lie on the the couch and drink beer and i'm not going to do anything but what actually happens is you have all this freedom all this free energy because you're not working against yourself all the time you know you look at a three
-year -old they do not have negative self -talk and yet that doesn't usually happen until seven or eight and yet they do all sorts of stuff they learn all sorts of stuff they learn so much more in a year than we ever learn because they're not fighting against themselves themselves.
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I mean, the notion of elevating self -discovery over self -improvement intuitively lands with me.
Yeah. It's also, it's more interesting to me in a weird way.
Totally. I feel like so many of us have spent our waking hours in the process of fixing everything that we perceive has been wrong our entire lives.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, some people, profoundly different levels, but it's almost like the entirety of our lives.
It's like just incremental pursuit of improvement towards some sort of end where like, oh, like we quote made it.
We finally feel good with ourselves.
We got X, Y, or Z, you know?
Yeah. Rather than your invitation, which is like, what if you kind of let go of that?
And maybe if somebody's watching, listening to this, like, yeah, no. There are things I want to work towards.
There are things I want to change about myself.
there's things i want to accomplish or achieve right okay maybe if we say suspended just just for a window yeah like what would happen using your approach which is so we've talked about it we both are true believers and experimenting your way to things rather than trying to think them through you know what if just an experiment you didn't let go of that for life yeah but for for for a moment.
Yeah. For a little window.
How about like right now, because that, so for instance, the idea is there's something wrong with you, but if you take this moment and you don't go into the past for evidence and you don't go into the future for evidence, I can only find evidence in this moment right now.
What is essentially wrong wrong with you and i'm asking you but i'm asking anybody who's listening like if you do not go to the past or the future if there's something wrong with you it would be wrong right now and yet if you look at what's essentially what is essentially wrong with you right now there's never an answer but what if there is give me an example um what if somebody everybody um is sitting here now they've just heard this question they're asking themselves okay so um what like in this moment not in the past not in the future like what what is wrong with me in this moment well um i
have incredible back pain yeah and how does that make you essentially wrong so it's it's essentially okay so yes there's discomfort in this moment for sure so let's tease that out a little bit more yeah because i think that can get confusing yeah you have back pain but that's not you you is the thing that you've been ever since the moment you came into existence until now if it's not that it's not you if it doesn't hasn't had to existed through the whole thing right i have a thought it comes and goes that's not me that's a thought i could cut off my arm i'm still here so it's not my arm it's like
what are you essentially is the question so yes i can have a sensation you know i could even say hey the problem is right now i want to kill myself and i would say that's future and that's something like what's right now so take me deeper into how this helps because there's going to be a thought bubble you know her listening into this and also say okay so interesting experiment yeah um maybe even interesting more broadly to say like what if i just spent time really discovering rather than trying to fix yeah um but if i do believe that there's something broken or if i'm dealing with a struggle
or a circumstance that i do want to be different yeah how does reallocating my energy to discovery rather than change make me feel the way i want to feel yeah so there's a whole bunch in that there's a whole moment in that so the the first piece is evolution happens whether you're telling yourself you have to improve or not an oak tree evolves when when is it perfect when is it good and when is an oak tree good enough when it's an acorn or when it's a sapling or when it's 100 years old or when it's 200 years old when is it good enough but yet evolution continues so in the question there's there's
this assumption that I have to tell myself I have to improve for evolution to occur rather than evolution just occurs.
A three -year -old doesn't have to tell themselves, I got to improve, I got to improve.
And yet lo and behold, evolution occurs.
So that's the first piece of it.
Second piece is how do I feel the way I want to feel is another big postulate in there, which is my question response is how do you enjoy feeling whatever you're feeling so i once sat with uh one of my teachers his name was adi ashante his name is adi ashante he doesn't teach anymore and and i was telling him what we were doing in our work what's happening we hadn't seen each other in years and we're having dinner somewhere and his wife and my wife and and i said He said, what's your work?
I said, a lot of our work is going from emotional management to emotional clarity, which is the loving acceptance of your emotional experiences without the resistance.
And so we're talking about one of those things, which is to allow the compliment, that feeling of joy in, but it's feeling of anger.
And he said, and he was a meditation, non -dual meditation teacher, and he said, that's 90 % of the questions I get.
How do I feel this way?
How do I stop feeling this way?
and that never leads anywhere good.
Instead, it's like, oh, how can I be excited to feel sad?
How can I be excited to feel heartbreak?
How can I be excited to feel angry?
That doesn't mean that I am taken over by it.
It doesn't mean that I've lost myself in it, but it's that.
So your question was if I want to feel a certain way and you're going to feel all sorts of ways in a day in this podcast if you're listening in our conversation we both have had a hundred feelings whatever it is will come and go those emotional experiences will come and go so I can't say that but as far as evolution as far as us continuing to evolve that happens the other thing that's a supposition in the question is that there's something wrong that somehow I have to be better to be good enough to be lovable to rather than oh I'm perfect as an acorn perfect as a sapling yeah and and I wonder
partly there's a there's a part of the supposition there also is that to live a good life we need to feel feel a certain set of feelings right not feel a certain set of feelings or at least maximize a certain set yeah and minimize or try and extinguish a certain set rather than saying you know what if a good life is allowing ourselves to feel the full sweep of emotion yeah and um just letting it all in yeah i was asked recently somebody was in a conversation and people were asking you like Like, how do you define mental health?
I mean, such a loaded question.
So how do you answer that in a way where you just don't step in it in some way, shape, or form?
But then it came to me right away was just, you know, for me, and again, I'm not going to postulate that this is right for everybody.
I said, for me, I think the way I would define it is the capacity to feel everything but not grasp to anything.
thing you know it's too like to cry yeah like when i'm when i'm heartbroken and to like not try and stifle it or feel it to um like laugh out loud around friends and to just to let love land to feel that gratitude like to yeah you know to feel grief to feel really sad yeah when hard hard things happen and, and not, not to, to allow it all in, to let it all in.
And also not to spend my entire life in any of it.
Right. Yeah. And, but we, like we had this sort of like Western overlay.
This is no, that's, that's not the aspiration.
Yeah. The aspiration is as much good as possible and as little quote bad for us as possible.
which is not possible yeah yeah there's all there's a whole bunch of weird things in that so the first one is just a neurological thing neurologically speaking a grand majority of our decision making happens in the emotional center of our brain so it's not so therefore clear decision making isn't being logical we're using logic to decide what uh emotion we're going going to feel so when a person who has that part of their brain damaged their IQ stays the same but it takes them like an half an hour to decide what color pen to use so if you think about just the clarity of decision making it it comes
from I'm happy to feel one way or another way and therefore I'll make a decision that's actually good for me rather than to feel one way or another other way because so many of our decisions are made to not feel like a failure or to feel loved or to feel at peace or to not feel like a loser and so so if you are happy to feel all that stuff then you make really great decisions as it turns out second thing is none of the feelings are actually negative or are really actually that uncomfortable the resistance to them is ungodly uncomfortable but if you are whoa i so enjoy feeling sad sadness changes
it's like there's a pipe and let's say let's use anger and so there's this channel of anger and if it's kinked one way it's nice shirt right and if it's kinked another way it's you son of a blah blah i hate you blah If it's kinked another way, it's, if you loved me, you would.
Those are all kinks in the hose.
But when that hose is not resistant, when you're fully allowing yourself to feel that anger, that anger comes out like Gandhi or Martin Luther King.
It comes out with boundary and clarity and dignity.
And so it's the resistance that's uncomfortable on these, all the emotions.
it's the resistance that's uncomfortable including the resistance to the compliment the appreciation if you actually let it in it's really pleasant it tickles but we're like no it's not me it was my teacher it's not me it's the team i have a quote that sums it up really well which is joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome.
And that's my experience, is that when you fully accept all the emotions and love them and can't look forward to them, welcome them, then joy just happens a lot more often.
And your ability to feel the joy becomes a lot deeper.
Which begs the question, how do you unkink the hose there?
And I guess maybe that cycles back to to a stance of curiosity.
Wonder is huge. Yeah.
Yeah. I make a distinction between curiosity and wonder.
It's arbitrary, but curiosity I just define as looking for an answer.
Wonder is just being a little kid about it.
And I find wonders more effective than curiosity.
And yes, lots of wonder expression.
Your emotions live in your body.
They live in your muscles.
Right now, Now, if I said to you, stop feeling, you have to constrict a muscle.
If you're going to completely stop feeling, you're going to constrict a lot of them.
That's why resisting emotions hurts.
That's why that's the uncomfortable piece.
Yeah. There's like a little somatic connection there.
Yeah, exactly. It's like everything's just tightening up.
So there is an expression that's necessary and a lot of wonder to really understand the emotional emotional system because we've been trained most of us have been trained our whole life not to feel what's that about don't cry it's because our parents didn't want to feel it and their parents and their parents and their parents like oh if i feel that i'm going to open up a bag of whoop ass on my life so i'm just going to push that down into this little corner of my body where it will slowly become cancer some version of you know um or i'm gonna push down the anger and be passive aggressive there's
it always ends up getting leaking out but it creates a lot of tension in the system and and the fear is that if i am really allow myself to be sad it'll last forever if i really allow myself to be angry it's going to destroy everything i love if i really allow myself to be scared i'm going to be incapable but it turns out if you really let yourself cry you feel better if you really let yourself get angry not at anybody meaning not not to control anybody but just have an experience out in the woods getting angry you feel more love you feel less like destroying your world and if you really allow
that sensation of fear through your system you feel very capable but our brains will tell us that the opposite because our brains don't get emotions emotions aren't logical our brains aren't supposed to get them i'm thinking also like the opposite is true too because a lot of times the story we tell us about quote positive emotions or the opposite like if i really allow myself to be happy that's gonna end and then i'm gonna be miserable if i really allow myself to love and be loved they're gonna leave me i'm something's gonna happen and then i'm gonna be devastated it's there when we like the quote
aspirational emotions yeah we tell the opposite story that's right that's right totally and and so so well seen and that's why typically what I notice when people are in the journey of emotional fluidity which is what my description for what you just said about allowing yourself to feel all the emotions and not be ruled by them is it's usually usually anger sadness first some depending like men in middle -class america anger is more accessible than their sadness and vice versa but um and you do that and then the fear and then the peace bliss joy love that actually happens in that order typically
you can't just jump to the positive things and actually have a full sensation of them yeah so it's like you have to there's there's almost like a pecking order yeah yeah there's a foundation that has to be laid and yeah but it also invites us to step into the stuff that we probably struggle with the most and it's because oh my god if i really let the love in i will be hurt i will be just stomped on and the answer is yeah and i can't wait to be stomped on because i have felt that before i know how much freedom is on the other side of that i know how much clarity is on the other side of that if you
can find a part of me that gets triggered i am stoked like great fantastic because that's exactly something i can't say about myself that's exactly the place that wants to evolve so yeah it's i'm very excited about it i'm excited to get triggered by somebody because it is more freedom for me and we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors If you love to travel, Capital One has a rewards credit card that's perfect for you.
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I wanted to even into that, but there's something I don't want to let go of before we just take that step, which is, if so much of this conditioning that says basically don't feel has been handed down through generations, often by parents or whoever it may be who you want to have a sense of belonging with, so you can conform to whatever the norms were that were taught to you, the family norms the local culture norms you know yeah um part of then saying okay so what if i actually start to allow myself to feel what if i get like what if i allow them to wonder around all this stuff all the feels
yeah embedded in that wouldn't there also be a potential and maybe this is one of the the restrictions that stopped us from doing it is that we're effectively rejecting um the the safety the container belonging that's been passed down to us through our our family or whoever it was yeah that's right where we want to feel safe and want to belong we want to be accepted you have to be seen and part of that was buying into this notion that okay so like you only feel a certain way or you don't feel that's how that's how we belong to each other Right, yeah.
So part of saying, okay, Joe, I buy into this.
I'll run the experiments.
Yeah. Is also saying, okay, Joe, I buy into this.
Maybe I'm going to actually reject or be rejected by those people who I really care about and they're still in my life.
Yeah, that is true.
There's no doubt about it.
But you're already rejected by them.
Tell me more. if i get sad they will reject me means they're rejecting you for who you are whether you're showing them or not showing them you're already living in a relationship where the love is conditional you can pretend to be something that you're not by not crying but then you're not loved the thing you're pretending to be is loved which is why you feel so unloved in your life not you particularly but you know what i mean but i mean probably me at certain points and probably almost everybody at certain points and probably a lot of folks right now joining us in this conversation, you know,
and it's, it's, that was me for a lot of my life.
I, I learned that I could be really good at being a chameleon.
I could walk into a room and a pretty good social awareness and understand like the culture of a room.
And maybe that's also a family or a group of friends or kids or a clique yeah you know and i could kind of scan the environment and sort of notice like this is how i would need to be yeah to quote fit in but in my mind it was to belong yes and i would i would sort of like form myself yeah into that person and then that that person like that i'm thinking to myself i'm oh sweet i'm i'm literally i can walk into any of these groups like this group this group this group this group and it's all good yeah and meanwhile i'm still lonely right because as you're describing i'm not actually in any of those
rooms yeah that's right yeah there's something there's something else about it that i find my experience is very similar to you i used to even dress in a way that i could blend in to as many i was like just neutral enough enough that I could flip into any situation in, in my twenties.
It was a really similar situation.
I think that the, the other thing about you're saying that, Oh, if I feel a certain way, then I'm going to be rejected in, in the society or in this.
I have a story about that.
My, first of all, if you have a young kid and you're really interested in this, there's Patty Whiffler has a book called listen and the organization is called hand in hand parenting.
it's so valuable it's just amazing work and i'm doing this which is basically being with your child as they're having an emotion and loving attention without trying to get them out of the emotion but this time it happens at a whole foods so i'm at a whole foods i got my two and a half year old just raging about wanting potato chips or some such thing i can't remember i'm containing her every parent is like immediately transferring to some public place where they're to that right right so but i am committed i am committed to allowing her to have her emotions and i'm going to be in loving attention of them
so she is having the full thing on the floor i'm on the floor of this whole foods and i'm just like i'm i got you right here with you i really hear you want the potato chips and we live in this little hippie town in northern california and uh i used to be be a hippie town and and and this little old lady hippie comes by she goes are you okay to my daughter and my daughter's like i'm just having my emotions and then she went like right back into it and so and yeah well like i didn't disintegrate i didn't get expelled from my town she didn't get expelled from her town that but the other thing that happens
is as emotional fluidity comes as you welcome all of it there's a short time where like if you're allowing anger for the first time you're going to get angry more often you let tears you're going to tears more often but that that arc starts going down all of a sudden oh my i feel anger and instead of yelling oh i have a boundary okay here's my boundary because i feel that i got that little bit of anger and i didn't repress it i didn't think i was bad i didn't wonder what did i do wrong because i'm angry i didn't wonder what did they do wrong because they're angry it's oh anger oh boundary oh hey
could we not do this this way oh sadness oh that's a longing can i i'll express my longing oh fear there's something i'm not taking care of myself so these things become signals signals and so you're not rolled over by the emotions and then it and then and you can get angry and you don't have to get angry at anybody you can go into the woods and get angry you can get angry in a safe place and it's weird because we're so scared of our emotions one of the things fear does to the brain is it makes us into binary thinkers and so we're scared of our emotions and it's either we are going to hold it
back or we are going to be taken by it we are either going gonna hurt somebody with it or we are going to hold it back instead of oh i can just express it in a way that's not shame -based and not bad for anybody easier said than done yep yeah no doubt it's like i can have long hair all i want so you're like well yeah um yeah and then you know like life happens um and and it's funny also right because i think um early days of meditation sort of studying eastern thought eastern philosophy you know i i think i interpret a lot of teachings as you know non -grasping lack of desire sort of like you know
like the ultimate the aspiration yours and aspiration is to basically um not attached to anything which i translated to To not feel anything.
Yeah. Yeah. Most people, I started meditating.
I meditated for whatever, seven years in a room most of my time.
And somewhere along the line, I realized I'm not meditating.
I am managing myself.
I'm not being with what is.
I am trying to create what is.
Total pain and suffering.
I thought I was meditating.
I was just torturing myself.
Yeah. I mean, so the imitation is really just like, what if we let it all in?
What if instead of, and I guess part of the curiosity for me here is like, do we have to let go of the aspiration to at some future point want to feel different or want our lives to be different or want something to like be changed in some meaningful way?
Do we have to let go of that?
Yeah. And, and just focus on like, Like what if I just allowed it all in right now in the moment and sat there in a place of wonder and said, okay, whatever it is I'm experiencing, huh?
Yeah. Huh. Can we hold both of those simultaneously or does the future aspiration somehow stop us from doing the work of opening to sensation and feeling now that will maybe at some point actually get us to the place we want to be?
Right. Right. So you don't have to do anything.
So that, that, that, that, that, that, but that's typically the way it works is we tell ourselves, oh, so now I see, I've heard that.
So I have to do this.
And in saying, I have to do it.
You're guaranteed that it's not going to happen or not, not going to happen easily.
Yeah, exactly. So that exactly.
So you're in fear, you're acting from fear, you learn slower.
That's, that's part of it.
Um, there is a nature part of the way that we evolve is because we our nature is to evolve and so of course we're going to have thoughts of evolution i'm i'm most mostly suggesting that the way to it is through wonder rather than through self -abuse or drive i i don't know how to let go of the call which is the call to evolve and And I haven't tried, don't have a particular want to try.
I don't see that it's painful or bad.
I often, however, don't have a specific outcome in mind or I'll have the goal, but it'll be very, very loosely held because my experience is my goals suck compared to what happens.
I did not in my 20s say, this is what i want my life to be like i had a very different vision of my life i am so grateful that that vision did not happen that this vision is so much better than i could have imagined that the solution set that you can come up with from the place that you are now is not even close to the solution set that you can come up with with a place where you have learned to love yourself a little bit more or or felt more emotional fluidity or any number of things.
So I hold the goal because there's a directionality to it, but I don't really hold on to that it's going to look the way that I want it to look because life has a way of looking a lot better than my preconceived notions.
I mean, it's funny, as you're describing that, what came to mind for me is I've had plenty of conversations with founders entrepreneurs really this is exactly what i'm going to build this is what i want to make happen this is yeah i have a very clear goal and there's all this mythology so if you don't have you know if you don't know what the target is like you know like there you're just never going to do anything that will get you there like you have to be crystal clear about what the end point is yeah and and and i've often said and there's data that shows what like okay so if you do have clarity
around that thing you probably are more likely to actually like achieve that that thing.
And there are different modalities to get there and different methodologies.
But the point that you're making, I think is just so prescient, which is A, is that thing worth wanting?
And B, what about the universe of a bazillion other possibilities that you're excluding without realizing it by saying this and only this, rather than, And what if I just allow myself to be really intentional about being and observing and being in a state of wonder and evolving and letting things in.
Yeah. And let that direct me.
Like how, you know, I tend to look forward and I'm a maker.
Like I just love to make stuff.
Yeah. But I do it largely.
I'm a weirdo in that like I'll write a book.
I'll spend two years writing a book.
My publisher shifts me a case of books like the first thing.
it's like you know like a case of like 24 hardcover books yeah and i'll just let it sit there in the box unopened for a couple weeks and i was like dude what meanwhile everyone's doing unboxings online and stuff like this and i'm like it was never about the like the thing yeah for me it was just about the experience of like how cool is it that i'm growing and unfolding and learning like um okay so like now there's a thing at the end of it awesome yeah um you know and but but the whole the whole idea of being really rigid about exactly how you want your life to unfold they're working towards the things
you want and the things you want to extinguish from it yeah um and that may actually get you closer to those things faster but does that actually but but But even if it does, you know, is that the life you're going to want to be living when you get there?
What have you completely ignored along the way by having the blinders on?
Yeah. I mean, if you've spoken to that many entrepreneurs, and I work with them, how many hit 45, and they're like, I got everything I wanted, but I'm fucking miserable.
Happens all the time.
I think that there is also a huge amount of wisdom to holding a goal.
goal meaning let's say i have a goal of reaching a million people not my goal by the way um or i have a goal of a thousand people well i'm gonna ask different questions how do i reach a thousand people i can go door to door and knock on a thousand doors so but if i'm trying to reach a million i'm gonna have a different so i think that holding that goal is and having clarity on it is really what makes visionaries in the fact that I define a visionary as somebody who's living in a world as if it already exists.
Gandhi existed as if he was a free man.
He existed as if India was free when they walked onto the salt mines and it was a half a million Indians and 20 security guards or whatever it was, a hundred security guards and they just walked and got beaten down four at a time that they were acting like free people they weren't acting like like subjects and and and so that if you can't see the reality you can't live as if that reality already exists and so i think that's the power of it you also can't catch the beauty if you're attached to it so it's like having it having that vision having that clarity but also being okay with the fact that life
is going to serve up something a lot better if you're if you're paying attention yeah and there's the tension right it's sort of like okay get crystal clear about that thing the vision of like how you want to be or what you want to participate in making happen yeah and at the same time you know you gotta hold it lightly to yeah exactly yeah you know um to allow serendipity to enter the experience yeah and wonder yeah and that's where the humility actually is no because if if it's not you doing it there's no vision and if it's not a huge gift then you're not actually you you're not seeing the serendipity
and so the to actually take your god -given place in the world and that it requires you to both see the serendipity which is a humility of this is beyond me and walk into it which is a humility of this is personal and i and it's me doing it it's almost like um um this shall be and who knows right totally totally which is and i agree with you i think a lot of people who do astonishing things in the world somehow hold like find a way to hold on to both of those and to let go of all of that at the same time yeah which sounds bizarre like if you're listening you're like my head is spinning right now
yeah i don't get this like how like and You and I love conversations like this, but I think sometimes people listen to it and they're like, but what do I do?
Yeah. Like what, like, okay, so I get that.
I'm kind of nodding along.
Some of these things really make sense to me.
Yeah. But what do I do with this?
Yeah, so the first thing in that question is it's pretty ineffective.
The question, what do I do?
Not entirely, but often ineffective because what it's doing is it's cutting off off the understanding oh i have this epiphany i if you're listening to this there's some moment where you're like oh yeah what do i do about it and so you're not letting oh yeah actually register in your entire system and and again so it's the idea is that you're doing is going to be more important than your understanding right so that's that's one of the things and so to to actually allow the understanding to wash over you is one of the best things the second thing that you and these are things you can do the other
thing you can do is just have gratitude for recognition like really allow yourself time to be deeply grateful for recognition that you have when you have it because that like deepens that washing over and deepens the understanding as far as the humility goes well there is the how to talk, how to react to the negative self -talk, that's some very good action that you can take.
Another great one is to allow yourself to feel a whole bunch of emotions.
We have something called emotional inquiry that we can give you a link to if you're interested.
And that's a really great way to feel into emotions with a lot of wonder.
So that's a great thing that can be done.
The other thing that can be done is to you let me think of a way to put this which is um you can notice that you are not you can literally uh one way to do it is to notice that no thought you've ever had is yours and literally spend an hour noticing like i'm not deciding to have any of these thoughts but the thoughts are arising the other way to do it is somatically go to back to where the source of the thought is describe that for me like what do you mean by that it is not a good way to describe it but if you sit down in a chair and you just watch your thought come up go back to where it came
from so we can just do that for a minute we all have tons of thoughts so first a thought will come up in 30 seconds you just somatically go to where that thought arose from we say somatically are you saying where do i feel it in my body yes yeah the physical sensation of where that thought came from and and how does it help me do it for a long time yeah i think it's great i think it's great i my and my response would be do it and find out because here's one of the things that i've learned is that when i discover something so my i had huge authority issues when i was younger and because i have authority
issues i didn't believe any teacher i couldn't really allow for teachers in my system for a long time but i really wanted to learn so i would listen and then i would say hey let's test it out let's see if they're right so i would test everything and in that process test and everything what I realized is I would do something I do an experiment and it would quote -unquote work oh my gosh if I loved my emotions wow they changed that the resistance was gone and oh my gosh and I but then I started loving my emotions to get rid of them and it stopped working so what you discover is that oftentimes when in self
-discovery if you're you're doing something to change your emotional experience it stops working or if you do something to get you somewhere it stops working if you're meditating to get somewhere it is far less effective than if you're meditating just to enjoy the hell out of meditation and so if i give like the destination of this thing what i'm scared will happen is that somebody will hold that destination in their head and not discover what happens naturally right which kind of to be it's the whole point of it exactly yeah yeah yeah um there's a certain faith amount of faith yeah that comes
with this invitation certain humility yeah yeah early in the conversation you you also brought up this notion of calling yeah in this context in the context of humility tell me more about the relationship relationship at some point there was a recognition that if i didn't follow the calling it was really painful it's very hard for me to describe what exactly calling is so if this is frustrating for somebody i totally understand um but i there's a knowing that oh this is what i meant to do I might not want to do it I might rail against it but there's a knowing that this is the thing that I'm supposed
to do and then I realize if I didn't do it because I don't want to do that it always was got more and more uncomfortable until I did it and when you realize that then there's a choicelessness in it you don't get the choice of doing this thing or not doing this thing you get a choice of having to be more and more uncomfortable or not having to be more and more uncomfortable and there's really no choice there's really no choice in that and when you recognize that then that's a deep form of humility because it's it's a choiceless life hmm folks aren't gonna like that well they sure aren't and and i
think it's like and for good nice of determinism in a lot of ways yeah it's not quite it's not quite the same way meaning meaning, that's a great, great thought process.
So it's not quite the same way because you can't get to the place of calling until you realize you do have choice.
So until you realize, until you realize like, oh, I can shape the world into what I want to shape the world into, at least somewhat that I can say no to my boss, that I can not accept this abuse from my husband, that I can And not live in a societal standard that I'm supposed to live in, that I don't have to follow this career path.
And I don't have to have 16 kids or 2 kids and 2 .5 kids at this age and live in this kind of a house.
Until you realize that you actually have the freedom to do what you want, you can't even be aware of the calling.
And then there's a place where it's, oh, it's all a gift. it's also necessary to get to to to get to the place where it's like oh this is a calling so when the calling comes and you see it and you understand it it includes all of that it includes oh i'm being called to go and take action and do something in the world which is going to require my determination and it's going to require my my showing up in a way that's uncomfortable for me sometimes sometimes it doesn't and it's also going to require the recognition that it's you're not responsible for this that it is a gift and all of that requires
a humility to get to the place of i have a choice but i don't really have a choice that the oak tree doesn't really have a choice the dog doesn't really have a choice and i get we do have choice so it's like again it's It's holding the dichotomy both at the same time.
It is holding the empowerment of choice, and it's holding the faith of non -choice.
And if we can't do both of them, then our little personalities are entrenched and digging in, which is not the humility.
Do you feel like we all, if we allow this space, If we acknowledge that in so many ways we do have choice, we have agency, which sort of seeds the possibility of something resembling what we might call calling to emerge.
And as you said, if we can't even get to the fact that we have any sense of agency or choice, then there's no space and understanding calling to emerge.
words like we can't because that would imply agency yeah that's really well said you know um do you believe that we all have that thing inside of us because i think a lot of people are probably saying themselves because i don't know what it is i'd never know what it is i'm in the 40s 50s 60s 70s whatever it may be yeah maybe you're younger um maybe i just don't know maybe Maybe that's for other people.
Then you wouldn't walk.
That's the first calling, one of the first callings.
Reaching, understanding where your hands are.
These are all the calling.
This is like the natural tug of evolution.
It is the thing that allows the birds to know where their migratory paths are.
It's the thing that allows an oak tree.
I get emotional thinking about it.
it it's a thing that allows the milk the the oak tree the acorn to know how to become an oak tree and respond to the light it is it is our birthright we just have to create a ton of resistance to stop it which is where most which is what we do it's how we live yeah and it sounds like the way you're describing also so is you don't necessarily you're not really describing from and tell me if i'm getting this right like we're all born with one singular calling and like our like it's this one thing and like that's it it's like no there there could be a myriad of ways that we're called in different
contexts different seasons different ways different parts of our lives right and and like it's it's not just this one universal thing it's just like it literally we're being whispered to all the time yeah all day every day for the entirety of our lives and and part of the work is to create the space to hear the whispers right and you can only hear it now like sometimes i get an idea where it's headed but it's generally like this right now this thing is clear i have to do this thing right now and so i see people get lost a lot looking for their purpose or their calling as if it's an abstract thing
and then i'll know what to do from this point forward it doesn't work like that it's you know what to do this point forward because you took the next step on the path yeah i don't know what to do at the fork until i get to the fork i love that um feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well in this conversation so in uh in this container of a good life project yeah if i offer up the phrase to live a good life yeah what comes up be yourself the authenticity of you is the good life thank you you're welcome pleasure to be with you hey before you leave if you love this episode safe bet
you'll also love the conversation we had with bernie brown about vulnerability courage and leadership transformation you can find a link that episode in the show notes this episode of good life project was is produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields.
Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young.
Christopher Carter crafted our theme music.
And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
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I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter.
Because that's how we all come alive together.
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
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If you're a lineman in charge of keeping the lights on, Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing, which is why you can count on Grainger for professional -grade products and next -day delivery so you have everything you need to get the job done.
Call 1 -800 -GRAINGER, click grainger .com, or just stop by.
Ranger, for the ones who get it done.
