hey weirdos i'm ash and i'm elena and this is morbid This is Morbid.
What's up, Big Red?
You know, everybody, it's that time of year.
Yeah.
We got exposed to COVID.
We sure fucking did.
We had a COVID outbreak in the office.
Yeah, there's a lot of nasty things still going around right now.
So wear your masks if you feel so inclined.
Yeah, you should um and and be careful out there.
Yeah, because i feel like, wash your fucking hands.
Yeah, wash your goddamn damn.
If more people just wash their fucking hands, we'd be in much better shape.
Like i can't, i'm not even getting into it, it's true, just wash your hands.
You know, it's how.
Like you know, the black plague started exactly.
It washes its hands or it spreads disease again, exactly.
I have that sign in my, in one of my bathrooms.
That's where i got it from.
Yeah Um, but yeah, so there's still a lot going on in the world.
They still have not located Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy.
Um, and there's a lot of like stuff happening in the case, but also none at all.
Like it's very, very wild.
It's just a very interesting situation and it's really sad.
So i just can't stop looking for updates.
I feel so bad for that family and i hope that there's a good update soon.
Yeah, that's the thing i keep looking, being like oh, please tell me they that something happened here.
Also, just like give them answers, because it must be hell again not having any answer.
Yeah, I can't imagine that.
I'm trying to think of anything else that I can offer as a fun.
Oh, there's more signed editions of The Butcher Legacy that were just added.
We initially had like a big chunk at Barnes & Noble of signed editions of The Butcher Legacy.
Nice.
You guys gobbled them up and then people said, hey, I didn't get one.
And Elena said, I'll sign more.
And I said, girl, I got you.
She said, honey...
I said, give me more to sign.
So I got more to sign.
She said, what's a wrist?
Yeah.
What's a wrist?
She said arthritis.
Never heard of her.
Purple tunnel.
What's that?
Who knows?
And I did see like a couple of people were asking like are these really signed, like hand signed, or are they printed?
I guess, which would be like a big bummer.
They're hand signed.
I promise you that.
I feel like, does that happen a lot?
I don't know.
When I got the question, I was like, do people do that?
I wouldn't think so.
You just get like a printed version?
Kind of less cool.
It'd be kind of a bummer, I feel.
But no, these are hand signed.
I have a box literally right next to me right now.
I can attest.
I watch her sign many many many many, many tippins tippins, tippins a day, and i've just been.
I'm signing whenever i can, so go gobble those up.
You can pre-order them now.
The book comes out august 11th.
Gobble them up, but pre-order now so you can get your signed copy, because i love you and i want you to have your signed copy.
Hell yeah, brother.
Um, and you know what, if you don't want the signed copy or if they run out, go get a regular copy.
Just get you any copy that you can.
Pre-order.
You can go to butcherlegacy.com and you can pick where you can get it.
Indie stores are great.
All that great stuff.
Everything is great.
Just make sure you get a copy.
Yeah, just get a copy.
Pre-order that shit.
Or else you'll feel left out because everybody listening to this mostly probably has a copy.
Yeah.
So if you're listening and you don't have a copy yet, that's a little bit of a letdown for you.
It is.
You might not know what happens.
And we don't want that.
And you know, it's not too late to buy all three.
It's true.
It's not too late.
So you can always buy all three.
You can.
That's one.
You have free will.
Yeah.
You can buy all three.
It's a great use of free will.
I would say adult money.
You got it.
Use it.
Adult money.
This is what you use.
I can't take it with you.
So I always think that whenever I buy something crazy, I go, I can't take it with me.
Can't take it with me.
But I can take this book with me.
Yeah, you can.
Hell yeah.
Put it in your back pocket.
In fact, I went to Barnes & Noble the other day and I got reckless up in there.
Hell yeah.
I bought every book that Emily Henry has to offer.
You went into a flow state.
I went into a flow state.
I got this book, bunny that oh, i've heard a lot about that, i have seen everybody raving about that book and i've been wanting to get it and i like always look at it and i'm like i don't know.
I don't know, i bought it.
Yes, i thought you should, but first i'm rereading the butcher and the wren and i'm gonna reread the butcher game yeah, and then i'm gonna read for the first time butcher legacy and that's my, that's my reading list right now, and then i'm gonna definitely need to go back to a place of romance.
Yes, absolutely.
It's like a palate cleanser, But my goal, I got this.
I got them for both of us actually.
Oh, yeah.
Hold on.
I got these little book counter things.
Oh, yes.
And they come with four little cubes.
And I'm like, who's reading a thousand books a year?
I was like, who gets to four digits?
I was like, if you're getting to four digits, tell me your secrets.
Tell me how you do it.
Um, but hold on, let me get to my delivered tab over here.
But yeah there's, and you can get these little like charms, quote unquote, with them.
So i got elena a ghost and a candlestick yeah, it's so cute.
And i got myself a little teacup and a candle it was really cute.
So let me, they're adorable.
Let me find where i got them on the tiktok shop.
I'll send mikey the link to yeah, we can link it, because it is a fun little way to count.
I buy so much on the TikTok shop.
It's really sickening.
The TikTok shop has me in a chokehold.
Same.
A true chokehold.
Oh my God.
Okay.
So they're elegant designs, but the E in elegant, the first E is a three.
And they're a silver star seller.
Oh my God.
So yeah, I'll give this to Mikey to put in the show notes and get you a book counter, because it's fun.
And my goal for this year is to read two books a month.
I think that's a good goal.
Yeah, I'm trying.
And if I can do more, I'll do more.
Yeah, just at least.
But in January, I read two.
I need to get on my shit.
I just haven't had a lot of time to because... Well, you also write the books.
So it's hard to read the books and read the books.
It is hard to read, but it's necessary as well to read the books.
And write the morbids and say the morbids.
It's a lot.
There's a lot going on.
There is.
And I've been going through like final edits and all that.
So I think that now that that's, I'm through that, I can finally leisurely read.
But I'm still making my way through Fantasma.
There you go.
And I still love it.
I'm still having so much fun with that book.
I really, Kaylee Smith.
Kaylee Smith.
Fun fucking book.
I'll add that to my TBR.
Fun book.
It really like, I was like, wow, I want more books like this.
I wanted to spend even more time in Barnes & Noble last weekend, but there were so many people there.
I went on a Saturday.
Oh, fuck that.
That's your problem.
I didn't think about it at all.
And then I got there and I'm sorry.
There was a lot of kids there and I was like, shut the fuck up.
No, you got to go.
If you can get there during the week and i can't, a plus i can or at night yeah, oh my god, nighttime.
Barnes and noble is lovely.
I went a few weeks ago, just after christmas, on like a week night.
It was beautiful.
Yeah, it was beautiful.
That's really where it's at.
Yeah uh, and there's really no way that i can segue from that beautiful discussion of one of my favorite things in the world, which is books.
Yeah, to dennis nelson.
I couldn't really think of a good one either, but we did it.
Here we are.
Here we are.
We're back.
We're back to Dennis Nielsen.
She says this is going to be the worst part.
This is going to be rough.
The second, because we're going to do this in three parts.
The third part, you're going to be like, yay, because he gets caught.
A message from a UK listener.
And they were like, you said this is going to be a three-part series.
And I was like, no, this is going to be a three-part-a.
A three-part-a?
And they were like, in my worst Boston accent, I said no.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be so proper about it.
I know.
It's going to be a three-part-a, kid.
Hey.
And in part two.
Uh-huh.
We're going deep into the depths of the most hellish shit you can possibly think of.
Word up.
Let me get my fucking hazmat suit on.
Yeah, everybody get ready.
But don't worry, because I'm going to follow it with part three, which is going to give us some more hellish shit.
But it's also then going to end with some justice.
We love justice.
So we need that.
So we left you with Dennis beginning his killing spree.
He had finally done it.
He had shown that he has necrophilic tendencies as well.
And desires.
He likes to keep his victims around after they're deceased for a while.
Under the floorboards.
And I think he's called the kindly killer because he kind of, like, befriends his victims first.
Oh, okay.
And he does come off a little unassuming.
Yeah.
I haven't fucking Googled this fucker yet.
So on October 11th, just a few weeks after the bonfire that he did himself to get rid of Stephen Holmes' body,
Yeah.
After that bonfire, it was only a few weeks after that, that Dennis went out to St.
Martin's Pub, where he met and started chatting with a young Chinese college student named Andrew Ho.
Okay.
After a few drinks, Dennis convinced Andrew to come back to his apartment with him.
He promised him a large amount of money for his company.
He's a scary looking guy.
He is, but he came off, I'm assuming, I think.
No, he looks super normal.
He came off a little like nerdy and just kind of like quiet.
Once you know what you know about somebody, you can't unknow it, it's true.
So he promised andrew a lot of money for his company and at the apartment dennis poured two more drinks and the conversation turned to the subject of bondage.
Andrew informed dennis that he wouldn't mind being tied up or doing the tying.
Okay now dennis agreed but insisted that he wasn't interested in any sexual intimacy Okay.
He was just interested in the bondage part.
This struck Andrew as like a little strange, because he was like okay, this guy invited me back to his apartment.
He offered me money for my company, which in my experience leads to one thing.
Yeah.
But instead Dennis tied a cord around Andrew's feet and told him that he was afraid he might have come there to rob him.
Okay.
Once Andrew's ankles were secured, Dennis grabbed a necktie and wrapped it around Andrew's throat.
And he pulled it tightly and he just started admonishing him for going home with a stranger.
While he did this,
Oh, that's fucking gross.
Now, had Dennis not loosened his grip at the first sign of panic from Andrew, it seems entirely likely that Andrew would have suffered the same fate as Stephen Holmes.
Absolutely.
But he did.
He loosened his grip.
He saw Andrew panic.
He loosened it a little bit.
I don't know what the intention was there.
But in that instant, Andrew used the opportunity to like turn out of his grasp or get himself out.
He grabbed a candlestick from the table and hurled it at Dennis.
The chaos of all of this also gave him the opportunity to remove the rope from around his ankles and he ran from the apartment.
That's so scary for all that to happen, like, to get away.
Now, about an hour later, the police come knocking on Dennis' door because Andrew had reported the whole thing.
Yeah.
And that was, like, a big deal for him to, like, go and report this.
Yeah.
Because...
He was technically involved in a transfer of money for a company.
Which is illegal.
Which could get him in trouble.
Yeah.
But he felt it was that important and that serious.
Okay.
Well yeah, because somebody that does this to you is going to do this to other people, or likely has already.
And he clearly felt like he was going to go further.
Yeah.
Now, despite the complaint filed against him for assault, the police at Dennis's door seemed completely uninterested in what either of them had to say.
I'm like, huh, same police department that he worked for?
Yep.
Dennis told them that they had been drinking.
And while it was true he had placed a necktie around Andrew's neck, he insisted he'd only done so because he wanted to show him how dangerous it was to go home with a stranger.
You can't do that, though.
No, of course you can.
That's actually not allowed.
Like, truly.
So, after proving his point, Dennis claimed that he threw Andrew out of his apartment and that was the last time he saw him.
He was like, I was just proving a point.
And once I had, I told him to get the fuck out of here.
And it's like, that's not what he said.
I bet.
Now, given his personal circumstances and all that he stood to lose, Andrew decided not to file a...
Like a formal complaint against Dennis.
Without a complaint, there was nothing the police could do besides just question him.
But looking back at this, a lot of activists see the disinterest of law enforcement and the social stigmas around the gay community to have allowed him to continue killing people very much so yeah, that was very clearly a big part of this.
You mentioned it in part one.
It sounds a lot like the Jeffrey Dahmer case.
It really does, and it's like the same exact things played out.
Yeah, like this Andrew ran out of that apartment, he got the police and the police weren't real.
I mean, they I guess they questioned him, but that's really all they were interested in doing.
They didn't want to go any further.
And it's like maybe keep tabs on this guy.
Yeah.
Who's coming and going from the apartment.
You know, like who's going in the apartment and not coming out.
Exactly.
Just see what's going on.
Right.
But activist and writer Peter Tatchell wrote had they done a proper investigation and caught Nielsen, 15 victims might still be alive.
Wow.
Yeah.
15.
Yeah.
The close call with the police probably should have served as like somewhat of a deterrent to him.
But he also saw that he got away with it.
He did.
That's the thing.
And it should have, at least for a while, served as one, but it didn't do anything to stop him from finding another man to lure back to his apartment.
Just emboldened him.
Because like you said, he saw that he got away with it.
In early December 1979, almost a full year after the first murder and just a few months after the incident with Andrew Ho, Canadian tourist Kenneth Ockenden stopped into the West End pub for lunch.
Sitting at the bar, Kenneth started talking to the man next to him, Dennis Nilsen, who also happened to be eating alone that day.
The conversation must have been pretty good, because they spent the next several hours together and then Kenneth agreed to join Dennis for dinner at his apartment.
After dinner they went out to get a few bottles of liquor and then went back to the apartment to have a few drinks and just listen to some music.
Now, in Kenneth's presence, Dennis felt more relaxed and comfortable than he had in a long time.
He said
I guess Kenneth reminded him of his close friend from his days in the service oh, this guy's name was Derek Collins, his friend okay and he just kind of like went back to that time.
I think he really that was the only time he felt kind of like normal at ease a little bit, yeah.
But that said, the pleasantness of this whole night was offset somewhat by the frustrating and very disappointing knowledge that the next morning he was Kenneth would be headed to the airport to return to Canada.
It's like the knowledge that people have free will and get to leave when they want to.
And that's the thing.
It's like if you had actually had a great evening with him, you could try to connect with him and keep talking.
But it's also like I think he had that experience once before.
Was he engaged to the man?
They weren't engaged, but they were living together.
I think that's what it is.
It didn't work out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, with a mind that is healthy, you could understand that that happened, but it's not always going to happen.
But he's not a sound mind.
Now, in his recollection of Kenneth's murder, Dennis Nilsen said it must have been well after midnight.
All of a sudden, I was dragging him across the floor with a cord around his neck.
All of a sudden, you said?
I was saying, let me listen to the music as well.
He didn't struggle.
He was dead.
What?
So he just is like all of a sudden boom cord around his neck dragging him down, like saying let me listen to the music as well.
That was the part that I was saying, what?
Yeah.
Yep.
So he strangled Kenneth.
And when he was convinced that he was dead, Dennis removed his clothes and watched his body, as he'd done with his previous victims.
Then he returned him to his bed where he assaulted the body until he fell asleep.
Wow.
Yeah.
Now, a few hours later, Dennis cleaned up the mess in his apartment.
Then he moved Kenneth's body to a large cupboard in the kitchen, then threw away any evidence that Kenneth had been in his apartment.
And in the days after that Dennis periodically removed Kenneth from the cupboard and dressed him.
Oh, decomposition had set in a lot faster than in the case of the holmes murder.
So nielsen was basically required to, in his mind, to wash the body and apply makeup to hide the natural, like decomp wouldn't washing it, wouldn't washing the body, just make it worse.
It would not submerging it in water.
But he's trying to.
He's trying, Okay.
He would then pose the body in various positions around the apartment and take photographs.
Oh.
Yeah.
Okay.
In the case of Stephen Holmes' murder.
The body under the floorboards caused Dennis a lot of anxiety and was a source of dread, but also occasional excitement and arousal.
This time though, Dennis's.
You know the body of Dennis's most recent victim.
Excuse me, He became more of a – and I'm referring to it as the body because that's what he was using it as.
Right.
He wasn't looking at it as Kenneth anymore.
This is his body.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
I just don't want anybody thinking I'm like not treating Kenneth as Kenneth.
This was no longer who Kenneth was.
Right.
But, like I said with Stephen Holmes, like being under the floorboard, that to Dennis was like very nerve-wracking, very –.
It made him anxious a lot, but then he would take Stephen's body out and that would get him all happy again.
But this time with Kenneth, he was more of a playmate or a house guest to Dennis than anything else.
And I wonder if that's because he had shared more of a connection, one, when they initially met.
Like more time together.
And then two, he had already gotten away with this.
So he might have been more emboldened that nobody was going to come knock on the door and interrupt this.
So I can experiment a little more here.
Yeah.
Like at night, while he laid in bed watching television, he would often remove Kenneth's body and lay it across himself.
He found comfort in the weight of him laying there.
He was also beginning to show signs of deepening psychosis at this point.
I'd say so.
He said later, Dennis said later, I would sometimes speak to him as though he were still listening.
I would compliment him on his looks and anatomy.
And each time when he was done, he would just wrap Kenneth's body tightly in plastic sheeting and put him back under the floorboards of the kitchen or in the cupboard.
Okay.
Yeah.
Isn't it wild that, like while we're living our like Next to this, I'm going to call our lives like normal.
Yeah.
You're just like going about your normal activities and there could be somebody in the world doing this shit.
Yep.
That ever hit you?
Yeah.
Like that could be happening right now.
Yeah.
Just like...
Yeah.
We're going to go like get your kids ready for dance and somebody else is going to take a body out of their cupboard, dress it up and watch TV with it.
You have no idea what anybody is doing in any house that you pass by.
Do you know?
And you can't eat in everybody's house.
Oh no.
This show has ruined me because I drive past people's houses all the time.
Oh yeah.
And just think what the fuck could be going on in there.
What are they doing in there?
What the fuck could be going on in there?
Because odds are you drive past a lot of houses in your life.
Some weird shit's going down inside of them.
Absolutely.
You know?
Yeah.
Of course.
Of course.
When weeks passed though, without word from Kenneth, his friends and family started growing concerned.
Yeah, of course.
His mother Audrey, reported him missing to the Metropolitan Police Force in London and even flew to England to aid in the search.
Wow.
That's a mama.
Right.
But, just as with the case of Stephen Holmes, there was little evidence to indicate where Kenneth had gone.
Right.
Audrey Ockenden, his mother, said he seems to have vanished into thin air.
According to the press, the police at Scotland Yard were quote reluctant to get involved because Ken Jr had been missing for less than a month.
So much of the search fell to the family, who were unprepared and completely unfamiliar with the city and the country, which is awful that it fell on them to try to find him.
Kenneth's father said, I'll stay until something turns up.
We hope every day that there'll be some sort of information.
Oh, that's awful.
That's heartbreaking.
Like his family was just like, I'm not leaving until I find him.
How could you?
Yeah, months passed and the search continued, but nothing much came of it.
And despite having kept a very detailed diary of his movements around the city, kenneth's entries stop on the afternoon of december 2nd, right before he met dennis nelson.
That is haunting, and there was no indication of what happened or where he went that day.
Dennis kept himself company with Kenneth's body for several weeks, but eventually the cold space beneath the floorboards couldn't stop the natural process of decay, so he stopped taking Kenneth's body out of its hiding spot.
Okay.
In the months after this, Dennis carried on with life as usual until May 17 1980, when he met 16-year-old Martin Duffy, who was a runaway.
A few days earlier, Duffy had left his parents' house telling them he was just going to the library, but instead he hitchhiked to London.
The last time anyone had seen him was the day he arrived in the city and was detained by police for failing to pay a train fee.
Okay.
He had no friends or family in the city, so he spent four days sleeping in train stations, surviving on whatever food he could scrounge from the trash.
In many ways, he was kind of an ideal victim at this point for someone like Dennis Nilsen.
Yeah.
He came from a troubled home.
He had struggled with his parents since reaching his teen years.
He's not from this area.
Yeah, he's not familiar with this area.
He had been picked up by the police for shoplifting on several occasions.
And a lot of times he would stay out all night at the bars around the Liverpool area.
So this wasn't like immediately setting off alarm bells.
Yeah.
At one point, Martin's parents had become so frustrated with him that they had him committed to a residential facility for troubled adolescents.
And he received psychiatric treatment there.
After his discharge from the facility, Martin genuinely seemed to want to turn his life around, even managing to stay off drugs and maintaining a job.
That's great.
By all accounts, things were going well for him until April 1980, when he was picked up by police for fare evasion.
He was let go with a warning, but for whatever reason, that incident caused him to backslide into his old habits.
And on May 13th, he packed a small suitcase and left his parents' house for the last time.
When he ran into Dennis Nilsen on the night of May 17th, he was bordering on desperate silence.
He had no money.
He had no food, nowhere to sleep.
Oh, that makes this a million times more sad.
He was, I mean, quite simply and unfortunately, he was the perfect target at this point.
By the time they got back to Dennis's apartment, Martin was already exhausted and wasn't likely to remain awake for very much longer.
And so they sat on the couch and chatted.
But after just two beers, Martin said he was tired and wanted to go to sleep.
So Dennis offered him the bed.
A short time after that, Dennis crept into the bedroom and attacked Martin.
Nilsen later said, My God.
He said, I must have held him there for about three or four minutes.
That's a long time.
And out of nowhere, you just get up and strangle this boy?
This poor kid.
Once he was convinced that Martin was dead, he laid him out on the floor and undressed him, then carried him to the bathroom and placed his body in the bathtub.
After the last two murders, Dennis washed the bodies in the bathtub.
This time though, he also removed his own clothes and got into the tub and bathed along with his victim.
What?
Yeah.
When he was finished, he returned Martin's body to the living room and placed it in a chair where he could just admire it.
What the fuck?
He said, I talked to him and mentioned that his body was the youngest looking I'd ever seen.
That's absolutely disgusting.
That's a direct quote.
So he's a pedophile now.
Wow.
Necrophiliac, murderer, pedophile.
You can't get worse.
Initially Dennis kept Martin Duffy's body in the kitchen cupboard, but after two days decomposition had significantly disfigured his remains, so he placed his body under the floorboards and left it there.
In the days that followed, he threw away Martin's clothing, his suitcase and other belongings, erasing any sign that he had been in his apartment at all.
It's like he just disappeared.
Did he eventually burn Kenneth's body or were Kenneth's remains still under the floorboards?
He was still under the floorboards.
I'm wondering, like, is that apartment starting to smell?
I'm sure it is.
Now, when Dennis met Stephen Holmes at the pub in December 1978...
It's reasonable to assume he hadn't intended at that moment to murder him.
I think he just like didn't know what he was going to do.
Yeah.
Kind of thing.
But by committing that first murder, he had indulged his darkest fantasy.
I think at that point it was a fantasy to him, a dark fantasy.
But he made it.
But he didn't plan, I think, that one far ahead of time, you know?
But now he's premeditating.
But now he's indulged his darkest fantasy and there's been no negative consequence.
Yeah.
At all.
And if anything, there's been subtle cues to keep going.
Exactly.
You know?
Now, following that murder, he claimed he'd made a promise to himself the first murder, Stephen that he said he was never going to let that happen again.
Right.
And then he did three more times.
But just a few months later, he very likely tried to murder Andrew Ho.
And this is all to say that he might not have intended or even desired at the time, to become a killer.
But once he had done the first murder and gotten away with it, that desire and his urges and his fantasies,
It just overruled any moral qualms that he may have had with these acts.
And it just took him over.
Because he's not, I'm not saying he's insane, but he's not living in reality.
No.
Something is very off here.
Something's broken.
You know what it is?
He's just deeply entrenched in dark fantasy because that's all he's done.
His entire life is isolate and live in a fantasy world.
Now, over the course of the next six months, he would go on to murder five more men.
Only one has ever been identified of those five men.
Yeah.
That's horrible.
In August of that year he met Billy Sutherland, a drifter from Scotland who supported himself primarily through sex work.
Although he wasn't like Nilsen's other victims in a physical sense.
Like he was older, he was covered in tattoos.
Just different physically.
His background and marginalized status made him an ideal target for Dennis Nilsen.
Sutherland had a history of petty crime stealing to get by whenever he couldn't find work, and he rarely stayed in one place for long.
Sutherland met Dennis at a pub near Piccadilly Circus and the two men spent the night going from one bar to another until closing time.
Now, at the end of the night, Sutherland mentioned that he had nowhere to go.
So Dennis was like, hey, come back to my apartment.
Later, Dennis claimed to have no recollection of killing Billy Sutherland.
Interesting, because that happened with the last victim, too.
It's just like all of a sudden they're dead.
He only remembers that he quote strangled him from the front and that there was a dead body in the morning quote.
Okay.
Given how forthcoming Dennis was about his other crimes, it's likely he might actually be telling the truth here.
Okay.
Because I don't understand why just one he doesn't remember.
Yeah, why he's so forthcoming with some and not others.
I don't know.
A few weeks later, Billy Sutherland's mother reported him missing to the police and the Salvation Army.
But he was just one of hundreds of men who'd gone missing from London over the years, 41 of whom were named Billy Sutherland.
Wow.
Wow, that's actually wild.
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah.
Also given his lifestyle and criminal history, particularly sex work, the case wasn't given high priority, especially in that time period.
It's so shitty, but it happens so frequently.
It's that whole they consider them less dead.
Yeah, that still happens.
Yeah, absolutely.
And even if it had been, no one would have thought to look for him under the floorboards of Dennis Nielsen's apartment.
There's nothing connecting him to him.
No.
Now, in the months after the Billy Sutherland's murder, Dennis's drinking continued to spiral out of control.
Which I'm sure only is making his fantasies and lack of touch with reality worse.
Exactly.
Now, during the day, he was able to maintain his employment and keep up appearances.
But at night, the alcohol blotted out all the darker parts of his personality.
That's the other crazy thing.
You have to think he's doing all of this.
He's getting this drunk and then he's just going to work the next day.
Going to work and talking to people while having bodies in his floorboards.
Because he's like a, he helps, he's like a job search consultant, right?
Like that's, what?
Like, what?
Now, between September and December, he would murder four more men.
All in more or less the same way as everybody else had been killed.
They would meet at one pub or another and after a few drinks, Dennis would invite the man back to his apartment where they would listen to music or watch a movie while they continued drinking.
Once his guest had been subdued or incapacitated from alcohol, Dennis would climb on top of him, straddle him, strangle him with a cord or a necktie.
And then when the man was dead, he would wash the body, spend as much time as possible before decomposition set in.
And after that happened he would store the body under the floorboards and set out to find a new victim.
He's just keeping everybody in the floorboards at this point.
It's wild.
And these victims.
When I say he killed four men, he killed five men.
They remain unidentified to this day unfortunately, or I would have given names.
Throughout this period, he started compartmentalizing in a way that allowed him to continue killing without hesitation and without interrupting his appearance of normality, which is like he could literally.
He's a very interesting case of compartmentalization.
Yeah, you can really put it over here and just be a totally normal person at work.
Yeah, like really scary.
He would later say i never thought of them again at work until i came home that evening.
That's how much he can compartmentalize.
I think he, some people, especially evil people or people that are deeply, deeply fucked up.
They can literally separate parts of their brain, I think.
And they can just put it over here and it's not there.
I once had a therapist told me I was really good at compartmentalizing.
I mean, trauma can make you really good at compartmentalizing as well.
Even to like, like I know that I'm going to compartmentalizing, but to that degree, like I can't.
I can't imagine compartmentalizing that.
I'm extraordinary at compartmentalizing.
Like not to toot my own horn, I don't think it's necessarily always a good thing.
No.
No, honestly, in fact, a lot of times it is a detriment.
A lot of times it's very bad.
I'm really good at it.
Yeah.
And I think it's just some brains can do it.
Some can't.
But I think to this extent there needs to be some deeply, deeply fucked up parts of you that allow you.
Because I can compartmentalize things that I think.
Well, a lot of times compartmentalizing is tied in with survival.
That's the thing.
It's like I can compartmentalize to be like, you know what?
That's not helping me be productive here.
So I'm going to put it over there.
Same here.
Yeah.
He's compartmentalizing evil deeds.
So he can continue on in this dark fantasy, but still be part of day-to-day society.
Exactly.
Which is crazy.
To go to work and not think about the bodies under your floorboards.
I can't conceive of that.
That's wild.
I can't conceive of that.
But I can't conceive of anything he's doing.
No, exactly.
There's such different species of human.
You know what I mean?
There's such a different subsect of human.
It's so funny.
I meant to mention this earlier, when we were getting our nails done the other day and we were watching that video about the climber the guy who just recently climbed
Alex...
He just climbed that skyscraper on Netflix.
Let me look it up really quick.
Hold on.
But I was just thinking when they did that MRI on his brain and they saw that his amygdala doesn't respond to fear like a typical amygdala actually does.
I really do think it would be so fascinating to do more MRIs on serial killers, because if this person, who's literally just very interested in adventure and climbing their amygdala, were that certain way there's got to be some part of a serial killer's brain or, like a person like this, their brain, that does not fire, like a typical brain fire.
Yeah, you know, i also thought that was really interesting to watch.
I did not think i was going to be interested.
I was actually.
I'm not gonna lie.
His name is alex honnold.
I was literally talking shit about it before we started watching it.
I was like i why would i watch that?
Yeah, couldn't stop.
Yeah alex, what is it?
Honnold honnold?
He climbed like a skyscraper in tempe, tempe.
Yeah, i was like it begins with a t?
Um.
He like free climbed it.
Yeah, with like no rope or anything.
It's honestly it was live on netflix and john and i remarkable thing we turned.
I know we're going off on a tangent right yeah, but this is what you come for, But I can't help it.
This is how my brain works.
But John and I were turning on something.
Oh, we were turning on Frankenstein on Netflix, I remember.
And I opened it and that was on the homepage.
It was like live when he was actually climbing it live.
And I was like, what is this?
And we were like, let's just see it for a second.
And we were like, we're not, this is crazy. we put it on we watched it till the end i had to watch him get to the tippity top it's i was fascinated by it he did it in less than two hours and it's uh no ropes it's called taipei 101 it's a taiwanese skyscraper and it's the 11th tallest building in the world but highly recommend watching it was very interesting it was really good and then i actually do want to finish it we didn't get to um the documentary the documentary i'm trying to find what it's called it i think it won an oscar recently Isn't it called like Free Solo or something?
It's about Alex free solo climbing El Capitan, which is one of the craziest rocks.
Free Solo, good call.
Free Solo, yeah.
But that part where they do scan his brain, I wanted to bring it up on the pod because I do just think that's really fascinating.
It is.
And I think we could really get somewhere.
Yes.
And, you know, maybe we could possibly treat serial killers someday if we figure out what in their brain is going wrong.
Or if we could stop them before it could get to a certain point.
Maybe you can start, Because the whole point that we just want us to get to sometime is to get to the point where we are stopping them before it even.
Gets to a point where it even starts becoming an issue like recognize it when they're a kid and be able to treat that ahead of time.
So it never becomes even slightly in fruition.
Yeah, like there's got to be something different.
Yeah, because Dennis said once he was in his apartment it was like he was in an entirely different world.
Interesting.
He would leave that day job and it was totally different world.
It's wild.
He said, I remember being thrilled that I had full control and ownership of this beautiful body.
I was fascinated by the mystery of death.
Which, like, cool, you're fascinated by death.
That's okay.
Go to the body farm.
Go do something good with it.
Like, go do something that can help people.
Or, like, what are you doing, sir?
You're killing people.
Like, he wants complete dominion over somebody else's entire existence.
Yeah, it's very Jeffrey Dahmer.
Ask the.
I would be very interested, and maybe we should do it at some point, to compare and contrast the two of them.
Yeah, because they seem to have the same desperate need to keep so, because Jeffrey Dahmer said the same thing.
He said, I just wanted them to stay.
Right. to or not.
That's the important thing.
Like I don't care about a person's autonomy.
I don't want them to have autonomy.
Like Jeffrey Dahmer tried to create zombies.
That's what I was actually just going to bring up.
And I don't, I mean, morally in part two, does Dennis Nielsen ever do that?
He doesn't go full Jeffrey Dahmer.
So I guess that's the contrast there.
But I wonder even what that is about, where it's like Jeffrey Dahmer almost wanted to make these people alive again in a certain way.
Whereas Dennis Nielsen is just happy with Well, he likes to turn them into dolls.
Dolls, yeah.
Which is a similar... It is similar.
Pathology in a way because, regardless of what, It's a different mechanism or pathway that they're taking to get there.
But either way, they want to end with complete control of the person.
Right.
One of them is just trying to make it so that they're more able to be animated.
There you go.
And then Dennis is just saying, well, I'll just put them where I want to put them.
Right.
That's how I'll have control.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, I think we would find more comparisons than contrasts.
I think so.
But in September 1981 Dennis was returning home from work when he spotted 24 year old Malcolm Barlow.
Like many of Dennis's victims, Barlow looked very young for his age and he led a very difficult life.
Both of Malcolm's parents had died when he was young, and he was raised in a rotating selection of foster homes and residential facilities.
That's awful.
In addition to cognitive and developmental disorders, he also suffered from epilepsy, which he generally lacked the capacity and resources to manage without any help.
Yeah.
Which is so sad.
That's tough to manage with help.
Yeah.
Uh, he, he wasn't really able to maintain employment for very long.
So he would have to turn to sex work to get by a lot of times.
And sometimes he would.
He would just like he was kind of desperate for money most of the time and desperate to like get by and just get food in his mouth and shelter at times.
So sometimes he would go as far as like blackmailing the men he slept with in order to extort money out of them.
It's just part of like a whole con thing.
Yeah, it's pretty common.
Yeah.
Now on the morning of September, I'm not saying it's okay.
No, not good.
That happens.
It was part of like that craziness.
Yeah, it's like desperation.
On the morning of September 17th, Dennis left his apartment for work, and he'd only made it a few houses down the street when he came upon Malcolm Barlow.
He was sitting on the sidewalk with his back against a stone wall.
Dennis stopped to see if he was all right, and Barlow explained that the pills he'd taken for his epilepsy had made him dizzy and his legs had given out beneath him.
Dennis helped Barlow to his feet and brought him back to his apartment, where he fixed him a cup of tea and called for an ambulance.
You might be seeing why he's called the kindly killer with these kind of things.
The ambulance came a short time later.
And once Barlow had been taken away, Dennis went to work and thought nothing more of this incident.
It's really weird that like empathy was shown there.
That's the thing.
Like that's not.
He's a strange cat.
He's a strange cat.
Don't even call him a cat.
Get out of here.
The next day, when Barlow was released from the hospital, he returned to Dennis' apartment and sat down on the steps to wait for him to return from work.
When he arrived home, Dennis was surprised to see him sitting there, assuming he would still be in the hospital, but he invited him inside.
That evening Dennis made dinner for both of them and they just sat on the couch together watching television, drinking rum and coke, just hanging out.
After two drinks, Barlow passed out.
Dennis slapped him in the face, thinking he was having another episode and he would need to call an ambulance again.
But instead, he just sat in the chair thinking about what he should do.
Okay.
Until that point, Dennis's murders had been definitely psychosexually motivated.
Yes.
For sure.
And again, very loosely planned.
Yeah.
You know, like kind of sloppy, kind of just of the moment.
Yeah.
But in the case of Malcolm Barlow the murder was not planned and it wasn't really motivated, like by anything sexual whatsoever.
It was really just like in Dennis Nilsen's mind that he presented an inconvenience for him.
Oh.
For the second time in two days, this stranger had, according to Dennis, interrupted his life.
And here he is again needing to possibly provide emergency care for someone he didn't know.
This is according to Dennis.
Yeah, of course.
I take back what I said about empathy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And given the events of that day, who's to say Barlow wouldn't be discharged from the hospital and show up at Dennis's apartment again and start the cycle over again?
Again, this is according to Dennis.
Yes, yes, yes.
This is where his wild mind goes is not, oh, I helped this guy and I did a good thing.
Right.
And then this guy showed back up thinking I'm a safe place because I did that for him and just wanted to hang out for a little while.
He's like, no, now he's just going to rely on me.
Yeah.
So instead of calling the ambulance or police to have Barlow removed from his house because he's still not sure if he's having an episode or if he just passed out, Dennis made the deliberate decision to go to just get rid of him.
He said later, putting my hands around his throat, I squeezed tightly.
I held that position for about two or three minutes and released my hold.
I didn't check, but I believed him to be now dead.
So with Barlow now dead, Dennis put him in the cupboard where he'd stashed all the others.
And then he returned to the couch.
He finished his drink.
And went to bed.
Wow.
Just that casually.
It's interesting too, because I don't know if I'm right here, but that's the first time he's manually strangled somebody.
Yeah, it seems like he's using like a necktie or a cord.
Yeah, so it's interesting that he was like irritated beforehand and then manually strangled.
That is an interesting little difference.
Yeah.
So by the time he put Barlow's body in the cupboard, Nilsen's apartment had become so crowded with dead bodies that he needed to do something about it or risk his neighbors catching on to what was happening.
That's how many bodies were in his apartment.
I'm surprised it could even get past a certain point.
Like that we're only now reaching that point.
Well, it was in the colder months the decomposition had been stalled.
Right.
But with the warmer weather, the bodies under the floors started decomposing at a rapid rate.
And with that process came the inevitable orders and bugs.
Oh, no.
Yes.
He had tried to hide the evidence of death by covering the bodies with deodorizer spray and insecticide.
But those did very little to mask the obvious.
Not insecticide.
Further complicating things was the fact that just a few weeks earlier, his landlord had informed him they were going to be renovating the entire building and were asking everyone to move out.
At first Dennis resisted, but when the landlord offered him a good sum of money to leave before the end of the lease, he happily accepted.
Okay.
Okay.
One night in late September 1981, just a few days before he was moving out of the building on Melrose Avenue, Dennis Nielsen removed the bodies from their hiding spaces one by one and dismembered what was left of their remains.
A relatively easy process, given how much time had passed in the decomposition.
Once that was complete...
He carried the remains out to the bonfire in the back garden, where he disposed of Stephen Holmes' body, and burned what was left of his victims in a roaring fire.
In order to disguise the smell of burning human remains... I was going to ask that.
He threw an old tire into the pit, hoping the smell of burning rubber would ward off any questions.
Oh, I feel like that would make it even worse.
It absolutely did, but he could just say it's the tire.
Okay.
Now, in October, Dennis left the apartment on Melrose Avenue and moved into a small attic apartment on Cranley Gardens.
You might remember that from part one in London's Muswell Hill neighborhood.
The layout and location of the apartment immediately presented a problem for Dennis because it had no private garden and was an attic unit.
So there was no space between the floorboards.
Ah.
It is maybe because of those factors that Dennis would ultimately wait several months before committing another murder.
Yeah.
It wasn't like he didn't think about killing in this time.
Like, that wasn't like he just was like, you know what, I'm not going to be that person.
And he even came pretty close one night in late November.
On the afternoon of November 23rd, he met 19-year-old Paul Nobbs, a student of European Studies at a local bookstore.
They chatted for a short time before Dennis invited him back to his apartment for dinner and he agreed.
Mm-hmm.
It's only 19.
Oh.
Oh, no.
The next morning when Nobs woke up, he was very hungover.
I'm actually surprised he woke up.
He made it through the night there.
So he staggered to the bathroom and when he looked in the mirror he saw he had a deep red mark around his neck and some bruising.
Oh.
Though he had no recollection of what had happened or what could have caused the injury.
So he was likely drugged.
Yeah.
Before leaving, Dennis gave Nobs his phone number and told him he should go see a doctor because he looked terrible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
Okay.
Okay.
Now.
Maybe his inability to store the body somewhere in the apartment prevented Dennis from fully murdering Paul Knobs.
It's crazy, though, to think that obviously he started strangling him and stopped at some point.
The fact that he stopped is not something we come across very often.
No, and the way like how deep that was and how like intense that was, he obviously stopped and started a few times, I think.
That's probably why he took so long to recover, because...
I wonder like lack of oxygen to the brain and all that.
Yeah, that's really scary.
He probably, it's awful.
But this might be why Paul Knobs lived is because he had nowhere to store his body.
Right.
Which is horrifying to think of.
Like that's the only reason.
So if he had somewhere to put you, you were going to be gone.
But whatever the case, Dennis' little pause on moratorium on murdering people wouldn't last very long.
In early March 1982, Dennis was drinking at St.
Martin's Lane when he saw a face he recognized from the pub a few months earlier.
Like many of Dennis' victims, John Howlett had a long history with the police and, after being kicked out of his parents' house at age 13, he'd struggled to support himself, frequently resorting to petty crime.
How do you cook a 13-year-old out?
It makes me so sad.
It really does.
Dennis met John at the pub in December, not long after he moved to Cranley Gardens, but he didn't invite him back to his apartment that night that he had met him.
At St.
Martin's Lane.
John pulled up a chair next to Dennis at the bar in order to drink, but when the bartender took too long to return, John suggested they leave and go find somewhere else with better service.
Dennis agreed, but rather than find another bar, he was like let's go back to my apartment and I can make us some dinner.
So they went back.
But around 1 a.m.
John excused himself implying that he was going to the bathroom.
When he failed to return.
After 10 or 15 minutes, Dennis went to look for him and found the man asleep in his bed.
Oh.
Because remember, he's been kicked out of his house since he was 13.
Yeah.
He probably doesn't have a whole lot of places to stay.
He's probably just tired.
Yeah.
And also I think there's a very high likelihood, with how fast these people are passing out, that he's drugging them.
So Dennis roused him and suggested he call a cab to take him home.
Yeah.
And John said, no, thank you.
And he was like, I'm too tired to leave, which does suggest drugging.
That's Dennis Nilsen's version of events too.
He's like, I tried to get him to leave.
Yeah, I wasn't planning on it.
Like Malcolm Barlow, John represented a change in Dennis's pattern.
Although he had picked the man up at a bar, it seems like he had no interest in engaging in sex with him or killing him, which is two of the things he usually wants to do when he picks someone up.
Right.
In fact, according to him and according to all accounts, he had tried to get John out of the house a few times that night.
And John's refusal to leave and inability to leave is what I think it was.
Yeah, straight out refusal, right?
Um, it is, according to dennis, so profoundly irritated him that he ended up for the second time.
Really, that we can point to killing out of pure anger.
Okay, other than his usual motive, according to dennis, he said i went to the armchair and under the cushion there was a length of loose upholstery strap.
I wound this material around his neck.
I think i said it's about time you went.
Oh, When he says I think I said it's about time you went.
Think about that in your head how fucking scary that is.
Yeah.
This man is about to strangle you and saying, I think it's about time you went.
That's just so, like, gross.
It's so scary.
Yeah.
He said.
Using all of his strength, he pulled hard on the strap as he straddled John, causing him to wake with a shock because he's asleep when he did this.
For the most part, Dennis's victims were younger than he was and generally smaller in stature.
Uh-huh.
So he liked that.
He wanted to easily overpower them.
John Howlett, on the other hand, was a former military guardsman and was obviously larger and more powerful than Dennis.
Dennis later said he fought back furiously and partially raised himself up.
I thought I'd be overpowered.
Oh, no.
Holy shit.
My God.
Dennis left his body hanging over the edge of the tub and then just returned to bed and went to sleep.
What?
These are the parts of these stories that like Like, obviously killing another human being is unthinkable, but then, like these strange aftermaths are the things that really get me.
Like he just finishes his dinner or his drinking.
And he just leaves him hanging over the edge of the tub and then just gets in his bed and goes to sleep.
Meanwhile, I actually can't sleep on my right side because if I do, my back is to like an open space in my room and I'm like too afraid of the unknown there.
And this man's just going to sleep with a dead body that he just killed in his bathroom.
Yeah.
Like I'm afraid of ghosts in my home.
Yeah.
And this man is just doing that.
I can't go to bed with a full sink of dishes, of dirty dishes.
You know what?
That gets me.
I applaud that.
Yeah, like that gets me.
I applaud that.
I will have trouble going to sleep knowing, because I will think about that dirty sink full of dishes and I'll be like I'm going to have to do that tomorrow and I can't do it.
I can't do it.
John's the same way.
This man is going to bed with a young man who he just brutally murdered, his body hanging over the side of the bath in his bathroom.
I just can't, my brain will not wrap around human beings.
And I mean, lately I feel like in the world right now, my brain is struggling with humans lately.
Like I'm just sitting there being like, I don't understand how people are like this.
Like I don't understand how as a species, we are this fucking horrific.
Like I really can't.
And I don't get how some of us aren't.
But some of us are.
I'm like, where did that come from?
That's what I mean about the brains.
That's the thing.
Yeah, I don't know.
Because how are we so different?
I don't ever want to think that anyone has the capacity to do this.
And unfortunately, a lot of people have the capacity to do this.
That's the thing with so many people have the capacity to do this.
And it's really scary to think about when you really deeply go down that road.
A lot of men have the capacity to do this.
Yeah, this is just.
I also think studying the difference between men and women's brains would be interesting.
Oh, yeah.
Just because, obviously, women are killers.
But, like, there are women killers, but there are so many more male killers.
Of course.
So it makes you wonder, is there something in a man's brain that is more likely to set off?
Yeah, like, what is it?
And like do i don't know?
You know yeah, it just.
It just brains man, because you could like it's like killing someone is such a something you can't wrap your brain around.
You just can't like snuffing out someone else's life.
No, i actually i have dreams sometimes where i've killed somebody, or i find out that i've killed somebody, and i like feel the guilt in those dreams of like how am i supposed?
Like i nightmares, how am i supposed to go?
How am i supposed to go on?
And like i, I can't believe I've just done that.
But then it's like the smaller, like relatively, like in comparison, acts of like, leaving the body in your apartment while you just go to sleep, that I'm like that shit is up a register.
Because it's next level.
Because it's just like what?
And now you're just going about your business?
Yeah.
I just don't, or just going to sleep with a dead body in your apartment?
I can't go to sleep if I like think I've been rude to somebody throughout the day.
The guilt I feel for like the smallest interaction versus snuffing out someone's life, I can't imagine.
Or like being in the Lizzie Borden house.
Knowing that people were murdered in those rooms, I was so fucking scared of being in those rooms because I'm like, and that was from like a billion years ago.
Somebody was killed in this room and they are no longer there.
Yeah.
Like physically there.
And neither is the person who killed them.
And I was so freaked out just to be in that.
I was like, oh, my God.
Yeah.
They're here.
No, me too.
And these people are just going to sleep with a dead body in the room.
Yep.
They just have no fear response.
It really is.
I'm like, what is your amygdala doing?
Like, I got to know.
I don't know.
It's in the amygdala and it's in so many other places too.
I think actually a fun bonus episode idea would be to look at the different parts of the brain and what they're responsible for and how it relates to crime and decision making in general.
That's a good bonus episode idea.
Yeah.
It's horrifying.
Now no longer able to hide the body in the cupboard or under the floorboards again, because he's in that little attic and he couldn't dispose of it in the garden.
He dismembered John Howlett's remains and wrapped them tightly in plastic.
And then he placed them in various discreet places around his apartment.
What?
Yep.
Also not knowing what else to do with the rest of John Howlett's body, he flushed the organs down the toilet and other small pieces of flesh.
He also boiled John Howlett's head, hands, and feet.
Okay.
Yeah.
I remember how part one opened.
Yep.
So Dennis Nilsen's first set of murders committed at the Melrose Avenue apartment had all seemed to go more or less according to how he had planned them, or barely planned them, I guess.
But beginning with Malcolm Barlow's murder, right before he left the apartment, He appeared to have been becoming more erratic and impulsive.
Yeah, frenzied.
He was killing not out of some kind of pathological need to.
He was just doing it when the opportunity presented itself.
Yeah.
And this is going to prove to be his undoing.
That's good.
And we're going to end part two right there.
Okay.
Um, because I, I can't really talk about any more dismembered parts right now.
Okay.
And I'd like everyone to sit with that one and just know that he gets caught in the next part.
He does get caught, and we are, he does.
He takes a.
He takes some more lives before he gets caught, but he does get caught.
I didn't expect that.
Yeah.
All right.
Yep.
This is the cutest fun fact I've ever heard in my life.
And now I love knowing this.
Dogs tilt their heads when you speak to them to better pinpoint familiar words.
You know that I know that.
I am obsessed.
I try to get Dolores to tilt her head when I talk.
They are actively listening to you when they do that.
I'm obsessed with that.
This is from science focus and it says your dog is tilting its head when you speak to pinpoint where noises are coming from more quickly.
Yeah, this is done to listen out more accurately for familiar words such as walkies and helps them better understand the tone of your voice.
If a dog doesn't tilt its head that often as those with shorter muzzles might, it's because it relies less on sound and more on sight.
Yeah,
I'm obsessed with that.
You know where I heard that?
Tell me.
The girls watch this show called Brain Child.
I probably mentioned it on here before, but if you didn't hear me mention it, it was on there and they loved that fact.
They'll tell you that fact all day long.
I'm surprised they haven't.
Brain Child is a great show on Netflix for your kids to watch.
By the way, if you're looking for something,
Is that the one where they did that hearing test and it showed that older people don't hear certain frequencies and you and I literally crashed the fuck out.
Yeah, i crash.
I remain crashing out about that.
Yeah, i was not in a flow state, but no, but brainchild really good for kids.
My kids love it.
They've learned a lot of cool, like science stuff.
Yeah, they're always telling us cool facts.
I'm obsessed.
I love that fact.
If i speak in a higher pitch, dolo always does that and i'm oh, now i know what's happening and i love it so much.
I love that.
I love dogs and i love cats and i love the animals.
I love them.
I'm gonna be one of those old ladies with like a fucking like farm good, like shit.
Tons of animals.
Let's go, girls.
I want to be all right.
Well, i'm obsessed with that.
I'm obsessed with you guys.
Wash your hands, don't kill people, don't do anything, don't spread disease.
Um, and fuck ice, Yeah.
All right.
We hope you keep listening.
And we hope you keep it weird.
But not so weird that you keep people in your apartment that don't want to be there anymore.
No, let people have autonomy.
Let people out of your apartment if they'd like to go.
Gosh darn.
