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You're listening to life kit from NPR.
Hey everybody, it's Marielle.
On today's show, we're talking about friendship.
One thing I think is amazing.
about friends is that these are people you choose.
I mean, we don't choose our families.
Generally, don't choose our coworkers or the people we interact with at the grocery store, but with friends, it's like you go through your life noticing other people who you appreciate and admire, people who feel like kindred spirits.
And then you say, hi, can I keep you?
That's incredible, we love these people and spend time with them, not because we have to, but because we want to.
If you flip that idea on its head though, the fact that friendships are elective can make them feel fragile.
We kind of know that we don't quote unquote have to be here, and I wonder if that makes some of us especially tender to bringing up conflict because we know that this person can opt out the same way they opted in.
Danielle Byard Jackson is a friendship expert and author of Fighting for Our Friendships, the science and art of conflict and connection in women's relationships.
People are turning to Friendship to offer a sense of ease and recreation and fun, it can feel risky to ruin that by bringing up something serious and difficult and challenging.
But Danielle wants to encourage us to be more authentic with our friends to talk about the places we differ because we are all different but when we communicate openly with each other without judgment we can get closer and make space for more than one way of being.
Yeah full disclosure me and Danielle are friends.
And I feel like you've told me before, like I'm I'm struggling with texting or something like that.
And I really appreciate that because I'm just like, oh, well, I'm never going to take it.
And I've also not been the best texter with you too.
So I've also, like, I appreciate that we're both on the same page here.
That's Marissa G. Franco.
Yes, Danielle's friend and a psychologist, professor, and expert in human connection.
She says this advice about being authentic with your friends and willing to disagree applies to the seemingly minor everyday stuff.
and the more heated disagreements.
If you really take anything today from like what Mia Daniel says, I feel like one thing is like do not withdraw from your friend.
Just give them the opportunity for repair, right?
Cause you're afraid that the friendship's going to end if you bring up this issue.
But you guarantee that it will be end if you don't bring up the issue and you just withdraw.
On today's edition of Dear Life Kit, the series where reporter Andy Tagill asks experts your burning questions, Andy talks to Danielle and Marissa about how to communicate with your friends and deal with conflict in friendship.
After the break, your questions on a couple's getaway that one party is dreading, on how to stay friends after kids, and about what to do when your friend is texting you too much.
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Are we ready? Ready for our first question?
Let's do it. Okay Danielle, Marissa, thanks so much for joining us.
Let's do it. Here we go, question one.
Dear Life Kit. I don't like my friend's husband and now she wants us to go on vacation with him.
I have a friend that I love dearly, but a few years ago, she married a man that's hard to get along with.
He's cheap, rude to waiters, and throws full -blown tantrums when he doesn't get his way.
Before they got married, my friend and I would vacation together and always had a great time.
So it would seem like a natural extension to now include our partners.
However, I could not think of anything worse than spending my hard earned vacation time cringing at her husband's behavior.
Telling my friend I don't like her husband is definitely not an option.
But how can I turn her down gently without revealing my true reason why?
So, I think obviously it's hard when people reject us.
So what I tend to recommend is a boundary and an offering.
Um, and so saying to this friend, like, you know, I actually really miss the times that we would spend together and the times that we would go on vacation together.
And that was like so special to me.
And I know that, you know, now we're married and things have sort of changed, but like, I was wondering if you would be open to like revisiting that special time we used to have together.
Like, would you be open to going on a trip with just me?
If that's the alternative that you desire, if that's not the alternative that you desire, what other alternatives can you do?
Can you say? Oh, I don't think we'll be able to go on a trip together with you, but could we go on a day trip?
Maybe that's more passable or could we go to this restaurant together so we can all have some time to get to know each other and so don't go on this trip if you really don't want to go on this trip.
Absolutely not, but is there an alternative offering that you could provide which would make your friend feel less rejected, validate your investment in it and allow you to do something that you can tolerate?
Okay, so much good stuff in there.
Danielle, do you agree?
Is there a third option here?
Is there another way, is there another path here?
Totally agree. I was going to say the same thing about, you know, maybe highlighting what it is you desire instead of what you don't.
So the same thing. I miss girl time.
It's just not the same if it's not us.
You know, it can be playful.
You know, friendship is elective.
So you guys are friends, you have something special.
You don't necessarily have to enjoy each other's partners.
That's something they'd have to elect to do.
But I think just continuing to join each other because that's something special and it doesn't have to include others, And that's okay.
I like that, don't shoot on yourself, there's not a relationship escalator when it comes to your friendship here.
Do you agree with the letter writer that she can't tell her friend the truth about her feelings about her husband?
Is there any situation in which it is appropriate to tell your friend, if this is a really close friend, if this is someone you really care about, how you feel about their spouse?
Yeah. I mean, this is just general advice for giving people feedback.
Instead of making it about their characters, what are the specific behaviors that you struggle with, and what comes up for you when that happens.
Owning that, sometimes our reaction to someone is also based on our own triggers.
And so I might say that, you know, I think I struggle sometimes when he gets really angry, and he really gets upset, and I have my own issues around being exposed to anger, and that's like, why, this is really hard on me, and you can share some vulnerability about your own past experiences, and why this person is really triggering for you, too.
and so the more specific we can make it and the more vulnerable we can be by saying this is the past experiences that come up for me when this happens that make it really hard for me to you know come closer because of that because of how this person's acting then I think we make it less likely that our friend is going to be defensive.
Melissa Danielle, thank you so much for this.
Ready for question number two?
Let's do it. Dear Life Kit, my best friend and I are in our mid 30s.
We're both happily partnered off.
He doesn't want children with his partner and is constantly talking about how he hates when his friends have kids and it always ends their friendship.
I'm undecided about if I want children or not, but the other day he told me if I ever had kids it would be the end of our friendship because that would change everything.
I tried talking to him about it but he kept insisting that I would change and have less time for him.
It seems a little harsh to drop your friend to 14 years because they had a baby, but I believe him as he's done this with other friends.
I want to approach us again with him, but I don't know how.
Any advice? Signed, hypothetically hurt.
Okay. This is a painful thing, but I feel like we all have a ton on our plates.
Do we really have time to be upset with our friends about hypothetical scenarios, is my question?
Do we have time to be pre -worried or pre -mad?" Yeah, I mean, my suggestion here is to really, like, start with curiosity, like, this sounds like a place of pain for your friend, and so, can you just, like, try to understand more about why is this a friendship -ending thing.
It sounds like they fear that you're not going to have enough time or that you're going to reject them.
And I think the more that you hear out their experiences around this, this negative experience around this, the less volatile they become.
The other thing I would say is just offering that the care and impact.
When people are triggered, they tend to be self -centered because they're in too much pain.
They don't have enough capacity to see yours.
So can you say, I love you.
Our friendship is so important to me.
I would be so sad to lose you even if this does change how much time, like how much love I have for you, would never change.
And I would love to figure out ways to still be invested in this friendship.
And still make sure that like, I don't know, your needs are being taken care of, to the extent that I can do that, you know, when I have kids.
And I just want you to know, like, that would be a major loss for me.
And you know, I hope that no matter where our friendship goes, you would be open to figuring out a way to continue it because I really love you.
Yeah, absolutely. Daniel, I do think this is a very specific and very peculiar hurt our friend, hypothetically hurt, is experiencing, and I think there's a lot in the zeitgeist right now about the chasm that can form between friends before and after having kids.
It's a very real thing.
Initial thoughts, what do people often get wrong in the post -kids friendship conversation?
I mean it definitely sounds to me like an over -correction, right?
I've been hurt by friends before, they've pulled away when they have kids, they're totally distracted, they adopt new interests, they want to talk about butt cream and diaper cream and I have no interest and I just don't want to go through that again, and so hard boundary not gonna have friends with kids and I get that but what's interesting to me is that it's almost like this person is trying to avoid some sense of rejection where the friends do have less time and they do have new interests and they do have unpredictable lives and obligations that's true but if it doesn't come in this form a child
it can come in of any other form I can't you know so so it's like if our friendship changes in that way I'm done.
But this is one of those changes that is explicit that we can anticipate who knows what's going to happen that changes my availability to you in my interests, and things are going to change our friendships going to evolve.
And Dr. Francko spoke earlier around, you know, how there has to kind of be space for your, you know, autonomy and your decisions.
And I think that's why ultimatums don't really do well in relationships, because you are removing my sense of agency.
If I want to have children, I would hope as my friend, you're going to be there to be a witness to this transition in my life.
I'm a parent of a toddler myself, and I can't say I'm familiar with this exact scenario, but I can definitely relate to the strain parenthood puts on friendship and the amount of extra effort it takes on both sides to stay friends with people.
And even when you try, even when you really try, you can still feel like enough isn't enough.
I wonder any advice you have of therefore any parents and non parents stuck in that unsatisfied friendship limbo.
Well, I've been on both sides, I have two, so I have a six year old and a three year old, but I remember when my friends started having kids and I'll be honest, I remember feeling bored with their conversations, because we're trying to be a good sport, but you just don't have the same interests, and I can only go so far, right?
With this conversation, so I'm being polite, right?
I don't want to have detailed conversations.
Sleep training, cool.
Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, like, Come on, where's your cool?
Where's your edge? You know, I remember feeling a little left out, because I saw how they gravitated toward friends who could have those conversations.
And I couldn't offer that anymore.
And I remember feeling like, a little discouraged because what once came with so much ease to pick up the phone and say, Oh, do you want to swing by that new place tomorrow?
Now required so much mental labor and calculation.
Well, let me see if so and so can take the baby and then maybe and being discouraged by it.
I do remember all those things but it was worth it.
I can't imagine a world where that person is not in my life.
That's just what was required for us at the time.
And I would say now as a parent I'm grateful for friends who are patient and flexible and they understand.
And it also offers understanding to me as a person because being a mom is a part of to some degree, it's a part of who I am this is who I am.
So to have friends who can affirm that aspect of my identity is is really important Mmm, absolutely, okay last question.
Here we go Dear life kid.
I made friends with a neighbor about a year ago.
We became instant friends and have a lot in common I really enjoyed this person's friendship and company.
However, she texts me non -stop It starts with a good morning text every morning then constant messages about every detail of her day and then ends with a goodnight text in the evening.
It's too much. I wanna be this person's friend, so I don't wanna hurt their feelings, but I wish we could just catch up in person.
I don't need the daily play by play and good morning goodnight text every single day.
Sometimes I don't respond but it doesn't deter her.
It turns me off the friendship.
She's very sensitive and I know saying something will hurt her feelings.
I don't wanna end the friendship but she is driving me away.
What do I do? Signed, unsubscribe.
Well, you know, I hear this person really afraid of hurting their friend's feelings, which I think is a really beautiful thing.
They have a lot of empathy towards their friends, but consider that it will hurt their feelings a lot more if you end the friendship without giving them a chance to repair, right?
Sometimes you have to do what feels cruel to be kind.
And if you really take anything today from what Mia Daniel says, I feel like one thing is like, do not withdraw from your friend.
Just give them the opportunity for repair, right?
Because you're afraid that if the friendship is going to end if you bring up this issue but you guarantee that it will end if you don't bring up the issue and you just withdraw, so at least give it a possibility.
And you can just say, in offering a lot of affirmation, reassurance, hey friend, I really do enjoy our friendship.
I really love to connect.
I know that I can be really lousy at texting and I'm worried that hurts your feelings.
So would you be open to most of our connection happening in person, something like that.
Again, owning that this is a difference, there's nothing wrong with your friend, there's nothing wrong with you.
It's just a difference, and you're figuring out how to navigate it going forward.
Mm, that's a really nice and clear -cut solution.
I can read from this question that it seems like the friend previously has not been deterred from just not hearing back, if that doesn't really, if they don't really hear that feedback, like if the texting continues, if they're like, yeah, sure, I understand, you don't have to respond to me all the time.
And if we still get the barrage of messages.
Danielle, where do we go from there?
You know, maybe tell this friend, hey, sorry if I'm not responding as much as you like.
I actually prefer getting together in person.
I feel like I can enjoy people more when we're talking in person, and when I get messages throughout the day, it actually makes me really anxious.
And so catch up in person is kinda my thing.
So I'm letting you know that it's not just that I'm not going to text you back as much as you'd like.
I am letting you know what it does to me.
It actually makes me anxious to to get lots of messages.
So that's why I just really like to enjoy people in person.
And hopefully people can pick up the subtext, which is girl, I'm getting you to stop blowing up my phone.
You know, and and you know, another theme is about having space for your preferences.
You know, remind yourself of what values you would say that you have in friendship.
Do you value honesty?
Do you value openness?
Do you value there being room for both people to have their needs met?
This is that. Like this is that in practice.
So it's super uncomfortable.
But this is you kind of pushing back to see is there space for me here?
Is there space for me to be in this friendship and say what I need to, as opposed to shrinking myself so that she's comfortable.
And I just know that if it were me and I were a person just blowing somebody up I would want that information because the last thing I would want is to make anybody in my life feel Overwhelmed or to know that they're they're they're stressed over how to let me know I would want that information and it's a chance for me to show them you are safe with me to tell me that information Whether it's texting or some other detail.
This is my opportunity on the receiving end to show you Okay, little awkward for me feel a little embarrassed but I hear you, say less, I got ya.
Yeah, it may be an opportunity for closeness.
I feel we're close enough friends that I feel like I could tell this to you.
And I really like the approach there, which is like, it's not you it's me.
Yeah, full disclosure, me and Danielle are friends.
And I feel like you've told me before.
I'm struggling with texting or something like that, and I really appreciate that, because I'm just like, oh, well, I'm never gonna take.
And I have also not been the best texter with you two.
So I've also like, I appreciate that we're both on the same page here, And I appreciate when people are upfront about their own style, like our phones are a middleman between us and other people.
And sometimes we think that middleman reflects who that person is but for some people it really does not.
Like they're neglecting us over the phone, but in person, we get their full attention.
And so I think it's really important to recognize when is the middleman reflect the person and when does it not?
Hmm. Oh, that's so good, she's always dropping bars.
I'm going to write that one down and put it on my wall.
It's so good. I mean, you assign meaning to things that people do and don't do.
Like the duration that it takes of going back and forth, you could assign meaning to that like, oh, she doesn't care.
She's not as invested.
She doesn't respect, you know what I'm saying to her, I'm not worthy of a response.
I do not want anyone thinking that it's just overwhelm or distraction.
So at least kind of reassuring that person that I see you I hear you you matter, I also struggle with this thing.
So I know it might strike up a certain feeling, but I need you to know, you know, what's really going on for me is, is, can be helpful, but I know the texting is a whole other issue.
Hmm, absolutely. Um, before we let you go, we ask every guest of your life kit for their best piece of advice.
If anyone has one to start, I will say I had lunch today, um, with someone who I was meeting in person for the We've been chatting on email that we met in person.
And she was talking to me about how she is experiencing more joy in her life because she's living a values aligned life, which I hear people say all the time, but she was talking about how she intentionally pauses to think about it, the choices she is making, whether it's to say yes to this email or to end the call for today and go home to the kids that along the way, she's training herself to think through her values.
And sometimes that's inconvenient.
Sometimes it's awkward.
Sometimes she's letting people down.
But it helps to keep her on track.
And I just really appreciated the reminder to not just go so quickly on autopilot all the time and to pause intentionally throughout your day, throughout your week to ask yourself if the decisions you're making are congruent with the values you claim to have.
And that's something that I've tried...
I'm gonna try to commit to moving forward because I saw the joy emanating from her and I want to try to be more intentional about that as well.
Oh Danielle that was so nice.
Thank you for that reminder.
I'm just thinking about one of my therapy supervisors who said anything unspeakable to you is affecting you and like to find time to spend with things that are unspeakable because I feel like this whole conversation has been about anything unspeakable to you is also affecting your friendships.
So that's so good. Add it to the wall.
That was reporter Andy Tagle.
Before we go, dear Life Kit wants to hear from you.
Do you have doubts about your romantic relationship?
Questions about compatibility or whether you're with the right person, write to us at npr .org slash dear Life Kit.
And for more Life Kit, check out our other episodes.
You can find them at npr .org slash Life Kit.
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This episode of Lifekit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider our visuals editor is Bec Carlin and our digital editor is Malika Garib.
Meghan Kane is our supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer.
Our production team also includes Margaret Sereno and Sylvie Douglas.
Engineering support comes from Kwesi Lee.
I'm Marielle Segarra thanks for listening.
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