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Hi, I'm Amy Bernstein, HBR's editor -in -chief.
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Welcome to the HBR idea cast from Harvard Business Review and happy new year.
I'm Curt Nagish. High standards, attention to detail, self -control.
These are qualities that lead to success in many fields, right?
Well there are also aspects of perfectionism.
If we're being really honest, many of us take pride in our perfectionistic qualities.
After all, they probably have helped us excel in school and in our jobs.
Our guest today says perfectionism can work for some of us some of the time, but it can also cause a lot of mental and physical harm for us in the longer run.
Ellen Hendrickson is a Clinical Psychologist at Boston University's Center for Anxiety and related disorders, her new book is How to be Enough, Self -Acceptance for Self -Critics and Perfectionists.
Her research, clinical and personal experience will help us understand where perfectionism comes from and how it can affect our work and lives.
She'll also explain how we can shape these learned behaviors to find healthier and more sustainable ways to live and work.
Ellen, thank you for joining me.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.
I want to start by asking you what drew you to write an entire book about perfectionism?
And did you also know that it would never be done by doing so?
So there are two reasons I wrote the book.
And one, I have to admit, is personal.
I wrote this for me.
If my previous book about social anxiety was the book I needed 20, 25 years ago as a college student or young adult this is the book I need now.
You're probably not the only one in this.
probably not the only one, I'm guessing.
The second reason however is because I think there is a bit of a silent epidemic of perfectionism that's happening.
Nobody comes into the Anxiety Specialty Center that I work at and says, Ellen I'm a perfectionist, I need everything to be perfect.
Instead they come in and say, I feel like I'm failing, I feel like I'm falling behind, I have so So many things on my plate and I'm not doing any of them well.
I think that's because perfectionism is a little bit of a misnomer.
It's not really about striving for perfection, it's about never feeling good enough.
It's not a clinical diagnosis, right?
Correct, it's not. It's not a diagnosis in and of itself, but it definitely can lie at the heart of a lot of diagnoses, like social anxiety, OCD, eating disorders, some kinds of depression.
It's a cross cutting factor across many kinds of diagnoses.
You make it sound bad.
It's a term that gets thrown around a lot and you can't say it critically of somebody but you can also say it as a good thing, if they're perfectionists.
They do good work. What does it actually mean?
Can you define it for us?
Sure, it's everybody's favorite weakness, right, in a job interview.
What's your biggest weakness?
I want such a perfectionist. So there are some researchers who would disagree with me but there are some who would absolutely agree with me that perfectionism can be good.
And that's when we strive for excellence, we do good work for the work's sake, we have high standards, we care deeply, we work hard. So that is healthy perfectionism.
It's the opposite in that sense of mailing it in.
Right, exactly, exactly.
And at the heart of perfectionism is a personality trait called conscientiousness, which is the tendency to be responsible, to be diligent, to work hard. I like to say it's the world's least sexy superpower, but it is.
If you're going to choose a personality trait, it's the one to choose because the psychologist, Dr. Angela Duckworth, who's better known for her work on grit, has a lovely paper showing that conscientiousness is one of the biggest predictors for both objective and subjective success in life.
Where it can tip over into unhealthy perfectionism or clinical perfectionism is when we start to do something called over -evaluation.
And now we're getting into the work of Drs.
Rauhshafran, Zafra Cooper, and Christopher Fairburn, when they were colleagues at Oxford University.
Over -evaluation is when we start to conflate our self -worth with our performance.
So forgive my grammar, but it's when I did good means I am good.
and so there, we start to base our self -image or our self -esteem upon striving to meet personally demanding standards.
You used the word epidemic before.
And then in the book, you say that perfectionism is on the rise.
There's some research from 2019, like long -running research, confirming that.
Help us understand what causes it and why it's becoming more prevalent.
For sure, yeah. So this is the study you mentioned is the work of doctors Thomas Curran and Andrew Hill, and they indeed looked at 27 years of data and found that over those years, perfectionism is increasing.
But to get a little more granular on that, there are three kinds of perfectionism.
There is self -oriented perfectionism, which is what you classically think of when you think of perfectionism.
That's when we're hard on ourselves.
Then there's other oriented perfectionism, which is when we're hard on people around us.
So often people close to us, like our spouse, our kids, our employees.
And then there is socially prescribed perfectionism, and that's when we expect others to be hard on us.
And that, so all, all three types are increasing, but that last one is the one that's increasing like a rocket launch. And their inflection point over the years I thought was interesting was 2005.
And that happens to be when Facebook was launched.
All humans react to the situations we're put in, and so when we're put in a culture or a company or a family or other group that demands that we perform and achieve and consume to ever higher levels to be sufficient as a person, of course we're going to respond with some perfectionism, but that makes sense.
And I think that's what's driving the rise.
Okay, well, let's talk about mistakes now.
How perfectionists handle mistakes.
I think a lot of things come bundled with that concept of overevaluation and that is that we tend to focus on flaws and details.
So we tend to zero in on the one frowning face in the crowd full of smiles.
I know I noticed the crumbs on the otherwise clean counter that no one else seems to notice.
We also evaluate things as all or nothing and so we will often set the bar for adequate at Flawless.
So, if we make a mistake, we screw up, we struggle, we flip from All to Nothing.
Okay, you asked about mistakes, so there that's where the All or Nothing evaluation comes in, because again if we set this bar for Adequate at Flawless, we are not allowed to make any mistakes either in Outcome or in Process.
So, when I say Process, I mean for example we might expect ourselves to focus like a laser beam all day long, and when we take a break or get distracted, as of course we're going to do because we're human, we've broken our rule.
We've made a mistake.
And now we've shunted ourselves from all to nothing.
So what we can try to do there is to make some room for mistakes.
And that's very different than what I think the traditional advice against perfectionism says.
Yeah, what is the traditional advice?
Yeah, I feel like the advice, like you have to lower your standards or stop when things are good enough, is a little bit misguided because either if we do have some over evaluation, if we see our performance as a referendum on our value, or it's just very important to us like our work or whatever, whatever we're doing is in line with our values and very important to us, we're not going to settle for subpar or mediocre outcomes.
I don't mind spending time on this.
Exactly. So with the over -evaluation, there if we're told stop when things are good enough, we're not gonna do that because that means that we are subpar or mediocre.
And just like you alluded to, if it's something we really care about, even if we're not equating our self -esteem with it, we were gonna want to do a good job.
It's something that is important to us.
So what we can do instead is to try to make some room for mistakes.
You made me think of a few things.
One is this idea of knowing something's good enough.
And I don't know if you saw that documentary with, is it just called Free Solo?
It's with Alex Honnold.
And in it, he talks about his mom and how she had these sayings when he was growing up, and one of them was good enough isn't.
Interesting. And I totally got that.
And you see how there's not room for mistakes in what he's doing, or maybe in the process, but not when he actually does it, right?
He's climbing up the side of a steep cliff with no protection.
And, you know, it's life or death at that point.
I don't know, you see situations like that and you certainly appreciate perfectionism.
Yeah, there's some situations where there are no room for mistakes, there's, you know.
You don't want the search interview like, alright, well, you know.
Good enough. A mistake will be a teaching moment.
Right, exactly. You don't want your pilot to make a mistake.
So, so there are definitely situations where there's not room for mistakes.
But I'll tell you a story about a client we'll call Julie who is a pediatrician.
And she's been doing this for 25 years by all accounts, she's an excellent doctor.
And one week she came into session and was just distraught because she had made a mistake.
A little girl had come in with some abdominal pain and she had diagnosed it as constipation and sent her and the family home.
Turned out to be appendicitis and she ended up at the emergency room.
It was fine, but Julie was beside herself and was saying things like, maybe I should retire early, I'm a bad doctor.
She was absolutely not willing to have made that mistake.
Now, I get that her standards are high, she wants to do right by her patients, absolutely understandable.
and the flip from all -or -nothing, by making one mistake from, I'm a decent doctor to, I'm a bad doctor, was really noticeable there.
So what we did for her, was try to help her keep her sense of herself as a good doctor while making room for the inevitable mistakes that are gonna happen over a 25 -year career.
So there, rather than I'm a good doctor or I'm a bad doctor, We try to make a sense of, I'm a good doctor who sometimes has a misdiagnosis.
We can apply this to anything, like, I'm a good student who sometimes fails a quiz.
I'm a good presenter who sometimes bungles a presentation.
I am smart with money and sometimes make a bad investment.
I'm a good parent and sometimes yell at my kids.
So what we're doing there is trying to not lower our standards.
Again, we want to keep our high standards, but to make some room for the inevitable mistakes and struggles and problems of life.
You also write that avoiding mistakes can hold you back in your career too.
In order to learn something new or in order to learn a new skill, we're gonna make mistakes at the beginning.
It's unrealistic to expect ourselves to do everything perfectly, with ease, the first time.
So, if we really put a lot of energy into trying to avoid mistakes, means that we're going to avoid gaining new skills, trying new things, or we take only safe risks.
So, for example, if we've run a marathon and we want to challenge ourselves but we're afraid of making mistakes, we challenge ourselves to run it five minutes faster, so we end up taking only safe risks rather than actual risks that could help us move forward. Yeah, you might actually get better time by setting a goal that you don't meet than setting one that you can.
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So, let's go back in time a little bit.
You share two stories at the beginning of your book about two men who were both perfectionists in sort of similar creative work.
They managed their perfectionism, however, very differently and achieved kind of different outcomes in their life and work, both still very successful.
Could you take us through the stories of Walt Disney and Fred Rogers, and then help us understand how they managed their perfectionism differently and how that affected them?
Sure, yeah. This was really fun to research and write.
So both Walt Disney and Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers, they both were real Titans of childhood, both created, beloved entertainment, were quite perfectionistic, but they, like you said, handled it in really different ways.
So, with Walt Disney, you could very clearly see this over evaluation that at the very beginning, he was his movies.
That if people liked it, that means they liked him.
That means he was okay.
He wasn't a failure.
It's definitely managerial in his case, right?
For sure. From your book, I get the sense that he would have loved to have just created and drawn the whole movie himself.
Yes. But he couldn't.
He needed to hire, you know, hundreds of illustrators and engineers and all sorts of people to like, create color palettes, and he spent a lot of time like correcting and spending more and more money to like make it turn out exactly as much as he could the way he wanted.
In the end, he said he wish he could start all over and do it again because he sees some of the flaws in it.
He didn't, though, to his credit.
Like he did know that good enough was good enough at that point.
I think if the bank and the audiences wouldn't let him, he would have started over again though.
Yeah, I know he put just an exhausting level of work and precision.
Sometimes that was a little bit misguided.
Like he auditioned over a hundred and fifty young women for the role of the voice of Snow White.
His detail orientation was what we could call pathological, ironically, then he would worry that all of the corrections would suck the spontaneity from the film.
So he really evaluated things as all or nothing and couldn't trust the people that he had so carefully handpicked to take their project and run with it.
You just got to learn to delegate, Walt.
Exactly. Exactly. Whereas Fred Rogers, also high standards, had a real vision for children's television.
Also lots of hard work.
If it was for the kids, it had to be right.
His management, however, was much more collaborative.
He was much more focused on connecting with others, whether those were his colleagues, his guests, his fans, and there he certainly kept his high standards but really lived the values that he was taught by his mentor, Dr. William Orr of guided drift. And that meant, stay true to your principles and your values, but be flexible within that.
And he also turned out extraordinary work but maintained the connections that he made along the way.
Yeah, what I found interesting were the examples of where things just didn't go as planned on set and he would roll with it and turn it into a teaching moment rather than, you know, started over and have it have to be perfect.
Yeah, exactly. There was one incident where, you know, he did his classic move of coming into the set and taking off his blazer and his dress shoes and putting on his cardigan and his sneakers.
Butting it up. But he buttoned up his cardigan and realized that the buttons were one button off.
And like I'd say that we've all been there.
Fred, we've all been there.
Exactly. And so everybody on the crew expected him to say cut and to start over, but he just rebuttened the sweater and said, you know, mistakes happened and they can be corrected.
So rather than doubling down on control like Walt Disney, he trusted his audience and his colleagues to roll with whatever happened.
Yeah. So, let's dig into these aspects of perfectionism, this sort of flexibility versus rigidity that you're talking about.
What is an inner rule book and how do we know if our own rules are too rigid?
Okay. Uncertainty drives anxiety.
Rules reduce uncertainty.
So rules reduce anxiety.
And those of us who are a little bit perfectionistic, myself included, again, I wrote this book for me, we orient to rules.
We like to know what the rules are so we can follow them.
And if we're doing a little bit of over -evaluation, that often can mean that if I am doing things correctly, that means I am correct, and this extends to situations where there are no rules and there we make up rules so we can follow those.
And that's not necessarily bad.
Think of the last big project you did.
I'm sure you maybe came up with a calendar of how to ship away at this.
Again, these are not necessarily bad things.
In fact, like having goals or having some structure can definitely lead to happiness and achieving those goals.
It's when the rules get rigid, arbitrary, or sort of mindless if we're doing sort of a generic idea of the right thing, rather than what is truly important or meaningful to us that can kind of get us into trouble.
So, how would you recommend that we learn to edit those, you know, inner rule books?
Find a way to allow some kind of Fred Rogers style flexibility.
So, I think we know that a rule is functioning as a rule when it feels a little bit coercive, a little bit obligatory.
So, I had a client who illustrated this perfectly because she said she was taught, through a combination of God and her mother, to be generous.
But that meant that she had to be generous if somebody on the street asked her for a dollar, if a neighbor asked her to babysit, she had to do it.
It was the very opposite of the spirit of generosity.
So it was functioning as a rule.
And what we can do there is try to shift over to values.
And values has become sort of one of those buzzwords that's hard to define like mindfulness or self -care.
But I think values are freely chosen.
They're never coercive or obligatory.
They're under your control, meaning they're not contingent upon anyone else.
So like being respected or getting famous is not necessarily a value.
Values are intrinsically meaningful, meaning you'd care about them even if no one ever knew.
So it's not performative at all.
And also, they're continuous.
You're never really done living a value.
So, like a pianist is never done practicing piano. A person of faith is never done practicing their religion.
and we are never done practicing our values.
And a value can be a concept, like a quality or hard work.
It can be a thing, like books.
It can be activities, like running or being outdoors.
It can be relationships, like connecting with your kids or being a loving partner.
So anything that is important, meaningful, purposeful to us, that is what we can run towards.
And especially when it's freely chosen, the quality of the experience starts to shift and it starts to feel less coercive, less obligatory, and more freely chosen.
Relationships are so important at work.
And you talked about one aspect of perfectionism which is where we are looking for it in other people.
How can perfectionism affect the way we show up with colleagues and how deeper relationships at work are?
I think other oriented perfectionism, where we're hard on the people around us, which can include our employees or our team, can often manifest as micromanagement or redoing our colleagues' work and we may be thinking, oh I'm just trying to help, but it comes off as this isn't good enough or I don't trust you.
And the effect that, that has on the team then is well if it isn't going to be good enough, why even try?
Very demoralizing. And people who are having an other oriented perfectionism moment are doubling down on some control, but the opposite of control isn't having your team spiral out of control.
The opposite of control is trust. It's trusting your team to take what they need to do and run with it, it's trusting them to do a good job.
So what if you suspect that you're managing a perfectionist?
You see those qualities, maybe you recognize them because you've dealt with them yourself, but maybe you just see that they're over -evaluating, being too hard on themselves.
What can you do to help them break that cycle?
Yeah, absolutely. So I think what we can do as managers or leaders is to model the type of work that we want to see.
And so that might include being a little vulnerable and showing that you too make mistakes but that they can be corrected.
It might be setting limits on the hours in which you do email, so it doesn't bleed over into midnight.
I think it's important not to tell the employee to lower their standards or stop when things are good enough, but I think rather than taking something away, what we can encourage them to do is to add on some questioning.
Is this really what I need to be spending my energy on?
Is that fifth draft really doing something?
Is is rehearsing the presentation for the 15th time, actually improving the presentation, or is it just reducing your anxiety?
Something else we can do is when we're evaluating their work to really keep the focus on the work, as opposed to on them.
Yeah, we've covered some of the nuances of perfectionism.
What does the research tell us about what happens to perfectionists in the long run?
A lot of people will mellow as they age, but people with perfectionism tend to burn out.
Life does not get easier for perfectionists, and that's because if we set unrealistic standards, we're not going to meet them a lot of the time, and as we rack up failures, not, which we can define as not meeting standards, again and again and again, we start to feel like failures, And so as people with perfectionism age, we can get less diligent, sort of more unstable, and are certainly prone to the disorders that I mentioned before like depression or OCD, eating disorders, social anxiety, et cetera.
Did this happen for you?
I mean were you ever at risk of not mellowing out?
Oh for sure. I found a paper that I thought was, the title was just spot on.
It said perfectionist at 20, work -life problems at 40.
And I feel like a lot of people can probably relate to that.
No, but I, I did go through sort of a personal burnout and for me, it mostly manifested physically.
I got diagnosed with the GI problem.
I went through like five rounds of physical therapy, when I work with clients who come into the clinic.
Sometimes that manifests relationally, like their marriage is in trouble, or they haven't talked to a lot of their friends for a long time.
it can manifest at work that they spend a lot of time procrastinating or otherwise avoiding trying to reach their unrealistically high standards or being afraid to make mistakes, being overwhelmed at all that they've expected themselves to do.
And so it can, ironically, manifest as not doing well at work when that is exactly what they want to do.
Yeah, so a lot can backfire.
Yeah, what lessons do you take away from your own experience with that?
Yeah. I think common advice for people who are really hard on themselves is to go easier on yourself or to have some self -compassion.
I was taught, as a therapist, that self -compassion, actualized, was talking to yourself like a good friend.
And so, I think, for people who struggle with perfectionism, sure, if talking to yourself like a good friend works for you, absolutely do that.
But, much easier than that, I think, is self -compassion can also be actions.
It can be letting yourself linger over your coffee in the morning.
It can be letting yourself stand under the warm spray of the shower for a few minutes on a cold morning.
But it can also be not doing all the things that you expect of yourself.
It can be actions, but it can also be inactions, or letting yourself off the hook for some of the more personally demanding things that you expect of yourself.
So, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
That we, as people with perfectionism tend to default to gut renovations, or total overhauls or new year, new you, but really we just need some little tweaks.
And being 5 % less hard on ourselves, 10 % kinder to ourselves, let ourselves make some room for those mistakes, but retain that positive view of ourselves.
That can make all the difference.
a little bit of self -compassion, a little bit of flexibility can go a really long way.
Ellen, this has been really wonderful.
Thank you so much for having me.
That's Ellen Hendrickson.
She's a clinical psychologist at Boston University.
Her new book is, How to Be Enough, Self -Acceptance for Self -Critic and Perfectionists.
And if this episode is not enough for you, we have more, more than 1000 episodes and more podcasts to help you manage your team, your organization, and your career.
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Thanks to our team, senior producers, Mary Du and Anne Sanny, associate producer, Hannah Bates, audio product manager Ian Fox, and senior production specialist, Rob Eckhart.
Thank you for listening to the HBR Idea Cast. I'm Curt Nikish.
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