Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbinspodcast.
I'm so glad you're here with metoday.
It is such an honor to spend some time with you rightnow.
And I just want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that will help you create a betterlife.
I think that's super cool and I love spending time withyou.
If you're a new listener to the Mel Robbinsshow, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcastfamily.
I'm MelRobbins. I'm on a mission to empower and inspire you with tools and the expert resources that you need to create a betterlife.
And one thing that can really trip you up is having to deal with a difficultperson.
Imean, just think about what a pain in the rear end itis.
Because all it does is take one person who's abrasive or mean or negative or has a short temper to ruin yourday.
Imean, don't even get me started about some of the jerks that are on planes thesedays.
Infact, just a couple daysago, I was coming back from a trip with ourson,Oakley.
And this guy sitting behind us and a woman standing in the aisle broke out in a screamingmatch.
And the woman went and took a swing at theguy.
And she ended up hitting myson, Oakleyinstead.
Luckily, the woman not only missed the guy that she was swingingat, but she merely just grazedOakley.
And that's when MamaBear, Mel Robbins jumped up and waslike, allright, that'senough.
You two calm down enough ofthis.
Andboom, theydid.Now, the thing about strangers being difficult is that when the fight is over and everybody comesdown, it's easy to shake them off because it's astranger.
And you're going to walk off the plane and you're never going to see that personagain.
But what if the difficult person is your mother or one of your kids or your boss or yourex, they're longgone, but you still have to see them all the time because you guys are co-parenting your kidstogether.
Oh myGod. Or the difficult person is yourpartner.
Imean, cutting this person out of your life isn't anoption.
And when you walk off theplane, they're going to followyou.
So the questionis, how do you keep your mindsetpositive?
How do you keep yourgoals, yourpriorities, your happiness front andcenter, and not let a difficult person in your life rockyou?
Well,today, you're going to learn from a renownedpsychologist, professor and best-sellingauthor.
How to stay in your power and yourpurpose, no matter who you have to deal with in yourlife, or what mood they happen to be intoday.
Andboy, ohboy, are you going to lovethis?
And all those difficultpeople?
They have noidea. What's about to hitthem?
Aidsmelt. Andtoday, our expert is going to give you and me permission to take a critical look at the people surroundingyou.
As much as I hate to admitthis, you and I both know there's a lot of toxic behavior that we both have to deal with in our day-to-daylife.
Whether it's someone who'spassive-aggressive, or they give you the silenttreatment, or they speak to you in a disrespectful tone of voice for they're constantly erupting because they can't deal with theiremotions, or someone who makes you feel like adormat.
Well, our expert today is going to teach you how to not only deal with thesesituations, but also how to heal from the damage that they can causeyou.
So whether you're dealing with a friend whose behavior istoxic, or you're reeling from the impact of a narcissisticex, you're going to get thetools,tactics, and decades of research from the world-renowned expert and clinicalpsychologist,Dr.
RomaniDiversala. The title of her newest best-selling book is It's NotYou.
And she's also the host of the hitpodcast, NavigatingNarcissism.
Now, I absolutely loveDr.
Romani. And I want to tell you a little bit about her and the impact that she's made on my life before we hop into theconversation.
Now, I first met her years ago when she appeared as an expert on my daytime talkshow, and she has taught me absolutely everything that I needed to know aboutnarcissism.
Before I metDr.Romani, I didn't know anything about thesubject.
I just knew that I had this person in my life who was extraordinarily difficult because they have a very narcissistic personalitystyle.
And what I've learned fromDr.
Romani has not only helped meheal, has not only helped me heal from thissituation.
It has helped me have extremely healthy boundaries with thisperson.
And it has been night and day in this relationship eversince.
Here are some of the top three things that I have personally learned fromDr.
Romani that have helpedme.
Numberone, narcissism is a type of personality that can be especially difficult to dealwith.
Because somebody with this personality really does believe that everything is aboutthem.
The second thing that I learned that helped me a lot is understanding that the person that's like this wasn't born thisway.
See, a narcissistic personality is developed because of childhood trauma or because of a parenting style where the parent makes the child believe that they are better than everybody else that they areentitled.
You know people likethis.
And the third thing that I learned from her is that a narcissist willnever,ever,ever, ever change because they don't wantto.
And that's kind of a hard thing toaccept.
And it's why you need to focus on changing how you deal withthem.
And that's the single biggest takeaway that I have learned fromDr.
Romani. Which is that for years I felt so much pain around difficult people because I thought I was doing somethingwrong.
And I also being a reasonable person couldn't understand why would this person act thisway?
Why wouldn't they change when they can see how much this hurts me when I'm asking them to dothings?
And it wasn't until she taught me that here I am hoping that a difficult person would change that hope was actually keeping me fromchanging.
Holycow,Dr. Romani flipped the script on me and she's going to do the same thing with youtoday.
And she is here with thetools, decades ofresearch, and takeaways that have made her one of the leading experts on narcissism and difficult personalities on theplanet.
She is going to tell you exactly what you need to do when you're dealing with somebody that's verydifficult.
And do me a favor as youlisten.
Will you please be generous in sharing this episode with people that youlove?
Anyone in your life that's dealing with a difficult person they've been complaining to you aboutit, or you're seeing it happen and it bothers you whether that somebody at work or you think they're definitely dating anarcissist, send them thisepisode.
Because it will not only give them the resources and expert counsel that theyneed, but it will wake them up to the reality of the situation that they'rein.
And that is the single greatest gift that you could givethem.
Already, youready? I know Iam.
So let's jumpin.Dr.Romani, thank you for hopping on aplane.
Thank you for flying across country to be here withus.
InBoston, I am so excited to see youagain.
It's so wonderful to see you everytime.
SoDr.Romani, where I want to start is on the topic of yournotebook, it's notyou.
And the world needs this book because there's so much information out there that you can find about how to spot a narcissist what narcissismis.
But when you realize you're dealing with somebody who'snarcissistic, whether it's your parent orheaven, forbid somebody that you're in a relationshipwith, why you realize there's almost no information to help you deal with anarcissist.
Why isthat?Yeah, youknow, it'sfunny.
You say that because it even when I think back in the making of thebook,listen, we go online that it's almost like it's more sexy content to talk about the why the why do they dothis?
Why do they dothat? What'sthis?
What are the five signs of identifying anarcissist?
That's that that's sort of the hotcontent.
But the problem is is that it keeps digging people into ahole.
Onceagain, we're more fascinated bythem.
Then we are with not only how this is affectingus, but who arewe?
Because we had to hide our selves in order to stay in theserelationships.
And this idea of the tale of the hunt is always told by the hunter and never thelion.
Yes, it is that the hunter always gets to tell thestory.
And it's in the story ofnarcissism, even in the annals of mentalhealth, books aboutnarcissism.
I've always went about thenarcissist.
This new book is not about thenarcissist.
This time it's abouthealing.
As I putit, it's the tale of the hunt told by the lion and not thehunter.
It's time to talk abouthealing.
It'sinteresting. You use the wordhunt.
It feels verydeliberate.
Yeah. And so as you're listening toDr.
Romney in this conversationtoday, I would love for you to set the table more about this proverb of the hunter versus thelion.
So that the person listening can locate themselves inside of thatdynamic.
I think the proverb goes sodeep,right?
The tale of the hunt is always told by the hunter and never the lion is that there isa,there's, it can feel at the mostextreme, like a very predatoryrelationship.
Predatory in the sense of they're stealing your sense ofself.
They are making you exist forthem.
And it is such aseamless,quiet, gradual transition that when you finally look up andrealize,whoa, I am entirely living in their psychological service and to appeasethem.
You'relike, how the heck did thishappen?
Because I was actually a pretty autonomous person before I met thisperson.
I knew who Iwas. I'm not even sure who I amanymore.
That's what I mean by thehunt.
They in essence are hunting your sense ofself.
They are taking it and using it in theirservice.
And that's why that that proverb had suchmeaning.
And we always talkabout, it's always the hunter that gets to regale everyone with theirtale.
Let me tell you how I did this and let me tell you how I didthat.
And I'm so heroic and I had to do this and this andthis.
But we don't really talk about the experience of what it's like even when we'restrong, like alion, to be stalked and staked out and cornered and despite all ourstrengths.
Because they're using very different weapons than our claws and muscles and all the things we've got to because they're using something as focused as agun.
They will take usout. That'swhy.
I'm processing what you're saying and thinking about relationships in my own life where I have someone in my life who has a narcissistic personalitystyle.
And I think there's a fundamental mistake that I'm sure everybodymakes.
I know I've madeit, which is presuming that everybody thinks likeyou.
Presuming that everybody loves like youdo.
Presuming that everybody has the same level of self awareness orintention.
And so you can be going about yourlife, thinking that the people in your life are otherlions.
Correct. And yet they are viewing you verydifferently.
That'sright. That's exactlyright.
I love that you're also picking a proverb that represents us as a lion because you'reright.
Lions are verystrong. And the message in yourbook, loud andclear, it's notyou, is also that it is possible to recover and toheal.
100%. Imean,Mel, I can give you hundreds ofstories,hundreds, if not thousands of people who have once the lights wenton.
I always say the lights go on and the gas lights gooff.
They'relike,oh, and then they getangry.
And then there's a lot ofgrief.
But they do take themselvesback.
Becauseremember, you're playing the wrong ground game when you're with thenarcissist.
You think they're going to noticeyou.
You think they're going to be proud ofyou.
You're looking for theirapproval.
Well, once you toss all that stuff to thewayside, and you're living in congruence with who youare, what matters toyou.
And learning who in your world are yoursupports.
People you can supportalso.
You have those reciprocal mutualrelationships.
The game entirelychanges.
I have had clients who have worked with for years and then don't work with themanymore.
And they'll reach back onside.
I wrote thebook. I made thefilm.
I fell inlove.Like, there are acttwos.
Infact, I would say it's much more likely thannot.
It's a slowprocess. And when you're in the middle of thestorm, you think it's never going to stopraining.
This book is really that weather forecast that I promise you itwill.
And even when you're in the middle ofit, there's things you can do to get yourself to that sunnyday, to your true sense ofself.
Well, I really relate to thetitle.
It's not you because I think the most predominant thing that I've seen for myself in being in relationships with people with a narcissistic personality style or in listening very closely to a friend or a family member who is in one is that you do think it'syou.
You think you're the problem or at least that's the way that Ithought.
That if only Iwere, youknow, a better of this or a better that than this person wouldchange.
And so understanding that it's notyou, that to me gives me a sense of hope that if it's notme, then maybe if I focus onme, I can heal fromthis.
That's exactlyright. And I think that too that the mistake is maybe if I'm a better job or a betterpartner, bettermother, betterworker, whateverbetter, youknow,writer, whatever that better is what one wants tobe, the error is thinking that it will changethem.
Atbest, what it might do is make you a better source ofsupply.
What do you mean bythat?
Imean, you use the example a lot of people giveme,okay?
Because we talk a lot aboutpartners.
Let's talk about parents for aminute.
Because even adult children are very much in the thrall of their narcissisticparents.
If only I didthis. I visited themmore.
I called themmore. I did thismore.
I did whatever it maybe,okay?
Then becauseremember, you're on a grail quest that anyone who's had a narcissistic parent everhas, that grail quest started inchildhood,right?
That's what's so kind of insidious about people who are still struggling with narcissistic parents when they'readults.
So you're still showing up with the finger painted picture when you werefour,saying, do you like mypicture?
Right now we're doing it with jobs and books and titles and look at my new house and look at my new car and look at thisbaby.
I can't hearyou.Yeah,great.
And they're still not breaking out of their sort of selfishhaze, which we don't equate withparents,right?
So what happens is thechild, the child of the narcissisticparent, modifies and shapes and tries to become what the narcissistic parentwants.
Morequiet, moretidy, better tennisplayer, bettergrades, more helpful around thehouse.
Sometimes or even the parentstherapist, they cheer the parentup.
Parents not cheering themup, by theway, but they are like the parent's lifecoach,like, youknow,everything.
Well, that's how you became a better source of supply as akid.
And a person has to do this as akid.
As achild, the child has no choice but to accede and give in to what the narcissistic parent apparently wants andneeds, basically subjugate themselves to the narcissisticparent, because it's the only way that child is going to get the absolute essential attachment needsmet.
That child needs a secureattachment.
And when that's not happening just because the parent is being a parent and the child has to modifythemselves, they will modifythemselves.
Because the child doesn't have the luxury ofsaying, my parents arenarcissists, so nothing I'm going to do is going towork.
They can't divorce theparent.
So they've got to modifythemselves.
That builds up a muscle in thechild.
And that muscle that gets built up in the child is that capacity to modifyoneself, to be what the other personneeds, to create anattachment.
So not only does that become a bad precedent once you startdating, because then you are putty in the narcissistic person'shands.
You're shaping yourself to suitthem.
You remain again in that way with aparent.
You continue to say whatever the equivalent of the finger painted picture is inadulthood.
And maybe I will show upmore, but it's neverenough.
And if you did live next door tothem, then they'll have contempt foryou.
Of why are you taking so much of mytime?
It's neverenough. And so what the person's trying to do in any narcissisticrelationship, including with aparent, is we think we're becoming better to changethem.
When we keep becomingbetter, we're just becoming bettersupply.
We're giving them everything theywant.
And what the narcissistic person wants is that we anticipate theirneeds, read theirminds, be what theywant, never be a source ofstress, prop themup, keep our needs and wantsquiet, andthen,boom, you're the perfect source ofsupply.
If you're raised by a parent that's narcissistic and conditioned in thatway, are you more susceptible to being in narcissistic relationships later inlife?
Youare. You definitelyare.
For no other reason that you've built this muscleup, that accommodationmuscle, as I callit,right?
There's a flexibility a person needs to have and develop if they have a narcissisticparent.
Otherwise, you're going to develop pretty severe mental healthissues, which does happen to a subset offolks.
But by andlarge, what wesee, survivors of narcissisticabuse, especially fromchildhood, are veryflexible, veryaccommodating, because they had to for survival reasons once upon atime.
Now, what I do not buy into is this idea that because a person has narcissistic parents or parents that they're more attracted to narcissisticpeople, that's not thecase.
What they're more likely to get is stuck in thatrelationship,right?
Narcissistic people are attractive toeveryone.
Charm,charisma,shiny,interesting,curious,confident,rescuable, whatever we need them tobe, they often are thatthing.
But once it starts getting darker and there's a lot ofdevaluation, the relationship becomes lesshealthy.
Healthier people may be able to muster up inthemselves,like, this does not feelgood.
Like, I don't likethis.
But the people who had the narcissistic parent are much more likely tosay,well,this, I know thisgame.
Right. I know how to dothis.
This is for yourparents.
It's pretty much allwrong.
The slide into the trauma bond ismuch, much moreseamless.
And it happens automatically becausethe,oh, I just have to bemore.
Gotit. Ofcourse, I have to earnlove.
That makessense. So as an expert on this topic and a practicingclinician, what are the signs that you have experienced narcissistic emotionalabuse?
Self-blame,self-doubt,confusion,anxiety, a sense ofhelplessness,frustration,powerlessness, problems withsleep, problems withconcentration, decrements or lack of self-care of anykind, feelingselfish.
If you do anything foryourself, being onedge, beinghyper-visual, and always ready tofix, feeling you need tobe, you have to change yourself to please otherpeople, a sense ofloneliness, a sense ofisolation, a sense that you'reweird.
That's just a shortlist.
Wow. And what is the first step if you're listening to this and you'regoing,yep, narcissistic parentsare,yep, I survived a narcissisticspouser.
I'm with one or I've been in a relationship with one and you'relike, I exhibit all thosethings.
Like what's the first step that somebody needs totake?
In order to start to heal from that kind ofdamage, you got to see it for what itis.
And so that takes us to the place of radicalacceptance,right?
Radical acceptance is the awareness that this is not going tochange.
Bythis, I mean theirbehavior, thesedynamics, this relationship is not going tochange.
Numberone, number two part of radical acceptance is thesethings, they do these hurtfulthings.
You radically accepting doesn't mean they're not going tohurt.
When somebody invalidatesyou, that you believe you loved or are supposed tolove, when they invalidateyou, when they insultyou, when they criticizeyou, when they shameyou, it willhurt.
So don't think that radical acceptance means that all of that goesaway.
Nor is radical acceptance magicpill.
It doesn't mean it's all going to getbetter.
It's not that you're signing off on theirbehavior.
It's not that you're agreeing with theirbehavior.
It's that you're you're leading into the understanding that this isit.
This is not going tochange.
And then the summit of radical acceptance is this is not myfault.
But I'mgreat. I'm glad when we can at least get the client tosay,okay, this is not going tochange.
Why? Because it takes away one of the biggest barriers tohealing, which ishope.
Holdon. Let me see if I understand what you'resaying.
Hoping that somebody that has a narcissistic personalitystyle, hoping that they canchange, that is the biggest barriers to youhealing.
Why? Because now your psychological resources are stillinvested, and the idea of themchanging.
So until we can get that off thetable, you are going to still have way too much of you invested in something that's never going tohappen, which means that there's not enough of you left to work on yourhealing, your process ofindividuation, your process of finally getting to live inyourself, rather than in service tothem.
Does that makesense? It makes a lot of sense because for decades with a particular person in mylife, I hoped that they wouldchange.
Yes. And I would twist myself in knots and show up differently and try a little bit harder and do this and do that and constantly think aboutit.
And what was always there in the background was the hope that things could bedifferent.
Correct. And it wasn't until I met you three yearsago, or four years agonow, and you said they are not changingperiod.
They're not even aware that they have this personality style and they don'tcare.
And there is nothing that you can do to changethis.
And when you saidthat, it was veryinteresting.
I could see it for what itwas.
It's almostlike, youknow, when somebody says aboutthemselves,well, I just am in the way that Iam.
And people in my life have alwayssaid,well, that person's male is just the way that theyare.
That's just who theyare.
I could never accept that that because I wanted it to bedifferent.
Correct. And you'reright.
It was the hope that it could bebetter.
The hope that this person wouldchange.
The hope that things could lookdifferent, that kept me trying somuch.
Even though I think deepdown, I knew that it wasn't going to make adifference.
That is a sad-assstatement.
Yes, itis. That hope that somebody else will change is what keeps us fromhealing.
Yeah. Do you agree withthat?
That hope got lifted foryou.
Do you feel like you're healingproceeded?
Yeah.Yeah. Once I understood the situation for what itwas, like I was so amashed in the situation because it had been going on fordecades, that I just couldn't even see the situation that I wasin.
But when I started to understand more about narcissistic personality styles based on you and some work with mytherapist, and I started seeing the behaviorpatterns, and I stopped making it sopersonal.
And I extracted what I wanted and all my feelings and just sought for what itis.
When thishappens, this person doesthis.
Like you can start to predictit, because you know it in terms of thepatterns.
Once I was able as much as I didn't wantto, and I think that's the other thing that we don't talk about a lot when it comes tonarcissism, is that you can understand allthat.
But if you still somewhere in the back of yourmind,go, but I don't want it to be thatway, you will forever be at the whim of thatbehavior.
And I wouldn't even say it's so much now that I don't want it to be thatway, is that I believe it could bedifferent.
Your situation I'm hearing from you is you don't want it to be thisway.
No. Youdon't. Thekey, the lifting of thehope, the radical acceptance is it can't to be any otherway.
That'spainful, because I do think that's probably why we do stay in theserelationships.
Using people's day because they think it canchange.
Well, you're theexpert.
Why do peoplestay? Imean, I can tell you why I've been in this relationship for a longtime.
But I think that that's part ofit.
And, but I think that even when hope gets lifted or takenout, radical acceptancecomes.
People still need to stay in the reasons for that are often things like practicalfactors,money,shelter, healthinsurance, familycourt, co-parenting minorchildren, not wanting to share custody with someone who's not up toit, but the courts don'tcare.
It could be duty andobligation.
It could be stigmas against divorce within a culturalsystem.
There's so many otherfactors.
And thechallenges, those factors are veryreal.
Even when they don't feelreal, like duty and obligation are still perceptions andconstructs, but they are veryreal.
It is challenging because to eradicate the hope and that this is how it's going to be and yet you always have to be init.
What happensthen? And this is the hardestpart.
Yousay, what's stepone, radicalacceptance?
What's steptwo? And this is the worst part of this whole process isgrief.
Becausegrief, when we think of the wordgrief, we think of someone who'sdied.
Someone dies and we havegrief.
They're no longer in ourlife.
We can't talk to them in the sameway.
There is aloss. They're not part of our routines in the sameway.
We think of grief is lostsometimes.
People will extend grief to break up or divorce or something likethat.
But it matters here more than I've ever seen the wordmatter.
Because not only is there aloss, sometimes it's a loss of arelationship.
Some people do walk away from theserelationships.
But what people lose when they give up thehope, when they go to radicalacceptances, they lose anarrative.
They lose a sense of afuture.
They lose a sense ofbelonging.
The hope is what was keeping this person going all theseyears.
And that's why even as atherapist, I don't just go in there and pull the hopeout.
The goal is to build a huge scaffold around the client before the hope gets lifted so that then the person can sit in that because the grief is monumental if doneright, healing done right means a cascade ofgrief, the likes of which you can'timagine.
Because it's a grief that never really goesaway.
You don't get a second crack atchildhood.
You don't get anotherparent.
A lot of these things don't get to happenagain.
And so you're having to live withthem.
These people have notdied.
Talk to anyone who's gone through a divorce from a narcissistic person who until the end will say they're still I've still attracted tothem.
They're still a part of them Ilove, but this was not good forme.
And I could seeit. And I saw it wasn't going to change and the hope wasgone.
And then that narcissistic person goes and meet someone new inside of the firstweek.
That'sgrief. Youknow, in the topic of hope and radicalacceptance, I think there's a bunch of things that you hopefor.
You hope for a behaviorchange.
You hope that there's something that you can do that will somehow make thingsbetter.
You hope to feelloved. And you also hope at times for anapology.
Let's talk about that because thatapology, there's two things that really make the grief worse and narcissisticabuse.
The first is the lack ofclosure.
Closure is that moment when it's a deathbedconfession.
It's the I hurtyou. It's the I should have treated youbetter.
You deserve more whatever it was some awareness that they did wrong byyou.
You're not going to getclosure.
Numberone, narcissisticrelationship.
But the second piece and this is whatreally, really harm survivors is the lack ofjustice.
It's notfair. These things feel incrediblyunfair.
The family continues to rally around the narcissistic person and uphold them and save the best seat for them at thewedding.
The friends of you as a couple still stay friends withthem, despite them cheating on you seventimes, including with someone youknew.
The work place just moves the narcissistic emotional abuser to another office and they getpromoted.
The narcissisticabuser, emotional abuser who left you finds a new person who's 30 years younger than you and gets engaged inside at sixmonths.
It doesn't feelfair. If you look at Judith Sarman's work on her most recent book on trauma andhealing, she really talks about how injustice is such an impediment to healing fromtrauma.
We can heal from trauma so much better if the story around it feelsjust.
I hate to sayit, but if the narcissistic personfails, takes atumble, gets a publichumiliation, it makes healing so mucheasier.
I'm so happy you brought this up because it makes me think of somebody in my life who went through a divorcegosh, close to a decadeago.
And she is still hung up on theex.
The ex was moving in a girlfriend to the family house 20 years younger almostimmediately.
Life-long friends now rallying aroundhim.
She to this day cannot get overit.
And I have always looked at the situation and thought like this was 10 yearsago, you're not that weak of a humanbeing.
You understandit. You know that this spouse has a narcissistic personalitystyle.
Your kids know that this spouse is a narcissistic personalitystyle.
You know that nothing is going to change and you just explain why she cannot let itgo.
Because it doesn't feel there's nojustice.
Because yousee, I would argue your friend is fully at radicalacceptance.
She does what he'sabout.
Nothing he does surprisesher.
Correct. But the peace and the cognitive dissonance created by them continually being rewarded andrewarded.
That is a huge barrier tohealing.
There's actually no sort of magic piece to the I've said in thepast.
Listen, the ultimate justice is that they still have to bethem.
But you knowwhat, tothem, if they're living large with their much younger spouse in the house and the money's comingin, they genuinely believe they'vewon.
And because the other person in the relationship had a full complement of empathy and kindness and goodness and they feel thewounds, the person who was harmed by the narcissist is hurt and carries that as a realthing.
The narcissistic person just merely found newsupply, which is all you were in the first placeanyhow.
And it feelsawful. And there is no quick fix to that except to identify it as aninjustice.
It's not a you need to get overit.
Oh, comeon. This that and theother.
It's this isreal. And it is and part of the radical acceptance process is how unfairly this narcissism thing plays out in the world atlarge.
It's why I do what I do becausefrankly, I'm tired of watching them get away withit.
And so peoplesay, comeon,Romani, you're not going to stop a bunch of tech billionaires and all that for and they're narcissistic selves from ruling theworld.
Isaid, that's never mygoal.
So I use the products that theycreate.
Right.So, but I'll tell you what I'm trying todo.
I'm trying to steer people away from relationships withthem.
They want to go out there and be the the the the the emperors of theuniverse.
Great. Thank you for making my life a little bit moreconvenient.
Please don't hurt otherpeople.
Like please stay away fromthem.
They're not relationshipmaterial.
They're make a fabulous appmaterial.
And let's just keep themthere.
Okay. Because this is they're not made forthis.
And so I think that it's really to keep people from getting theserelationships.
But the injustice piece is one of the single greatest bit thathope, hope and injustice hold peopleback.
And it can really make the grief a stumbling place towhich, youknow,again, the loss ofhope, the experience ofgrief, theinjustice, allfuel, one of the major fallouts of narcissisticabuse, which isrumination.
It neverfails. I always learned something fromyou.
I'm so grateful that you're here as you're listening toDr.
Romani. Aren't you grateful she's heretoo?
I want to take a short break so that we can hear a word from oursponsors.
They are bringing us this incredibleepisode.
It's yourcost. Don't you dare goanywhere.
We'll be rightback. Welcomeback.
I'm so glad you're here with metoday.
I'm your friend Mal and I'm here atDr.
RomaniDiversala. She is the world's leading expert and researcher onnarcissism.
We're talking about a brand new best sellingbook.
It's notyou. And we're talking about the new research in thatbook.
Let's talk a little bit about rumination because I think it's one of the most important things to understand about healing from narcissists to give you some relates to the friends you just talkedabout.
Absolutely. Rumination isa,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah,ah, can'tstop.
Thinking can't stopthinking.
Now here's where rumination getsinteresting.
One thing the research tellsus, even from the times of CharlesDarwin, we have argued that rumination has afunction,right?
Itdoes. What isit? The function of rumination is asolution.
Think on something long enough and you'll come to thesolution,right?
Okay,da,da,da,da,ah, gotit.
And then you do the thing and therumination,prize, and you feelbetter.
The problem with narcissistic abusesis,ruminate,ruminate,ruminate,ruminate,ruminate, nosolution.
Ruminate, nosolution,ruminate, nosolution.
So where many other ruminators are getting tosolutions, the narcissistically abused ruminator just keeps hitting the samewall, which fuels powerlessness and rumination without a solution isdepression.
Wow. So you see what'shappening, is that that's why the survivorslook, they lookdepressed.
When they come into a clinician'soffice, rumination is a central part of the depressionprofile.
Infact, youknow, Darwin and others have argued that all thatrumination, it actually leads the person to almost turn inward and becomes part of the sort of the process of trying to find solutions indepression, but it gets the personstuck, stuck stuck in thesystem.
I'm thinking about this person and they have isolatedthemselves.
Yeah,exactly. They are basically this oncevibrant, like amazing person is literally living avery, very small life is stuck in the thinking the last time I saw thisperson, she was thinking about what's going to happen at her daughter's wedding when the X springs a newgirl.
By theway, the daughter's not evenengaged.
And may never getmarried.
Right. But I'm saying you're exactly right because they're spinning their wheels in isolation on a problem that has nosolution.
So it becomesdepression.
So the tricky bit is rumination is a key part of almost every mental health issueanxiety,depression, you nameit, but it's it holds a unique spot for survivors of narcissistic abuse because they're going through something that most people don'tunderstand.
Even a lot of therapists don't understandit, but certainly their friends a lot ofpeople, like comeon, get overit.
Like he's a terribleguy.
You should be happier out ofit, but they don't feelhappy.
Find someone you can talk about this is about so many times until you actually let itout.
Probably the best place to do that istherapy.
I haveclients, Imean, I think of some of my clients and they'll over and oversay, I feel like aloser.
I'm telling you thisagain.
Isaid, you think you're telling me the samestory, but every time you tellit, you've actually put another piece of itdown.
I am hearing thedifference.
You'renot. And at every time they tell thestory, we're putting another piece of it down to the point where they finally releaseit.
Friends aren't always the best place to doit,right?
Because friends arelike, how long do you think aboutthat?
I've heard about this crap for 10 years and you're in therapy and this is an issue and it makes me profoundly sad to see that this X has movedon.
And it's veryhappy. Doesn't think about you at all other than to complain about anytime something with the kids and you are living in a mentalhole.
Right. And it's still living in service to thepartner.
So it's still notpulled, pulled themselves psychologicallyout.
This is really about pulling out all theconnections.
Do you know how like when you takelike, youknow, like you take wallpaper or something off awall, you leave all those stickybits.
You got to get in there and get all those sticky bitsoff.
I want to take a step back and talk a little bit about the definition of being a survivor of narcissisticabuse.
How would you describe someone or what being a survivor of narcissistic abuseis?
So a survivor of narcissistic abuse is the essence of survivor of a narcissisticrelationship,right?
They've experienced all the patterns we've already talkedabout.
Thedevaluing, theminimization, the gaslighting, themanipulation, thedomination, thebetrayal, thebreadcrumbing, all thatstuff.
Like beingminimized,devalued, allthat, thathappens.
Those are thebehaviors.
That's what narcissistic abuse is by theway.
It's the behaviors in therelationship.
Being chronically exposed to that and not understanding what the hell is going on leads to a fall out in theperson, theanxiety, thehelplessness, therumination, theregret, all thatstuff.
Okay. And so the person's experiencing all these negative experiences and don't want to keep feeling thatway.
Yes. It to be a survivor of a narcissistic relationship or narcissistic abuse is to have all these sorts of negativeemotional,physical,cognitive, even spiritual people who report a loss offaith, a loss of belief in theworld, a loss oftrust.
All of those things are byproduct of having gone through one of theserelationships.
And if a person is not taught what narcissismis, how it shows up inthem, what was happening in the relationship and above allelse, being coaxed into radicalacceptance.
These behaviors are never going tochange.
These patterns are never going tochange.
You can set a clock by thisperson.
Yearsago,well, I work with a client who was a tough sell onthis.
And I did something very unorthodox as atherapist.
The person would come in andsay, I think that this is going tohappen.
Isaid,no,actually, I think this is what's going to godown.
Shesaid, there's no way that that's what's going to go ondown.
Isaid, you want to make abet.
And so I at the time I had an office that was on top of like a coffeeshop.
And I was a pain in the neck from it was actually across the street down across thestreet.
It was verybusy, it was hard to cross thestreet.
So someone would bring me tea would be the greatest thingever.
Isaid, I make you abet. And if it goes down theway, I say it goesdown, you buy me a tea and you bring it to yoursession.
This is not how we're supposed to dothis.
I'm bored ofpsychology.
You don'tlisten. Doit.
So we didthat.Yeah. By the time I wasdone, she probably had brought me 60 cups oftea.
I think only once that I get itwrong, and I had to get the coffee once it was a bummer Idrove, but got 60 cups oftea.
So is that somebody who is so disconnected withreality?
No, it was theheck. It was thehope.
Here's where it gotinteresting.
And I'llalways, this is what tome, the more important part ofit.
And therapy andsaid, you knowwhat?
Thankyou. Thank you for the fact that a you this this entire therapeutic experience cost me hundreds more because of thetea.
But she said it was yourconviction.
She'slike, you already had the coaster out for thetea.
Like you were ready for that because I know she'd come in with thetea.
Shepersonally, she didn't tell meadvance.
The tea would showup. I waslike, and so shesaid, you were sosure.
And thatassuredness, thatconviction, it showed me this had to be apattern.
You weren't you weren't you didn't have a crystalball.
You weren't a futurereader,right?
You knew this as apattern.
Overtime, shesaid, I kind of knew it could be the otherway.
Like it's almost like shesaid, by the 60th cup oftea, I gotit.
Right. I sawit. And then was better able to predict what was going tohappen.
So my point in sharing that is that we we knowthis.
But the other person needs some they need a minute radical acceptance isn'tlike, here's what narcissismis.
And that's them and look at all these things thathappen.
Infact, one of the techniques I talk about in the book is something I affectionately call the Icklist.
And I say to theclient, need to make no moves in thisrelationship.
Nothing has tochange. But I need you to write it all down every time they dosomething.
And if you're not writing itdown, I'm writing it down inhere.
And I'm going to keepit.
And overtime, this list gets to the point where you'relike,oh, this is apattern.
And seeing it and writing makes it morereal.
What you said about hope isgenius.
Because with this particular example that I've just shared with this friend ofmine, I personally believe if I were to make a bet that she hopes they get backtogether.
Correct. And so if this is resonating with you as you'relistening, what I want toknow,Dr.
Romani, is if you're holding out hope that that parent's going tochange, if you're holding out hope that things could bedifferent, if you're holding out hope that this person that is narcissistic in yourlife, that somehow something is going to bedifferent, how do you start to dismantle this thing that you've been holding on to forever that keeps you completely amashed in this relationship and this fricking fantasy in yourbrain?
Part of it is the writing itdown.
I know it sounds like a strange thing tosuggest, but there's something very different because euphoric recalls are very realphenomena.
What is euphoricrecall?
What isthat? Euphoric recall is it's almost like a twist on what our minds usually don'tdo, but in narcissisticrelationships, people cherry pick the goodstuff.
But we did have a really nice time in Miami 10 years ago and they reallydid, we laughed so much at that TVshow.
We got sex was actually reallygood, euphoricrecall, pick the goodthings.
That's why writing itdown.
And writing itdown, people who watch the relationship and get the relationship just getting it all down because there's times you're not going to be able to get itdown.
I've helped a lot of clients write theseeglists.
I'mlike, remember that time you told methis?
And I remember the time you told me that and they'd keeplike, ohyes, Ido, I'm sosorry, yet I getit.
And so we pile it all up and you can't unsee itthen,right?
It's almost like looking at the 5,000 transgressions of somebody like you're going tohire, like you do realize if you bring themback, these are all the things hedid.
And each person will belike,yeah,no, wecan't, we can't bring this personback.
We can bring that the more we have thedata, that's one big piece to dismantling thehope.
There's another thing I can talk about this in the book is this idea of going into something I call going into the tiger'scage.
Okay? So when a client'slike,no,no,no,no,no, it's going to bedifferent.
RememberMel, a therapist is atherapist.
My job is never to be dogmatic andsay, absolutelynot.
If you dothat, I'llsay,okay, youknow, I'm always going to hold space with a client to feel safe to go try something and that there's nojudgment.
So we'llsay,no, I think it's going to bedifferent.
I'mlike,okay, so I couldn't be atherapist.
I'd belike, you stupididiot.
It is not going to bedifferent.
Like I literally want to reach out and grab my friend and strangle some senseunder.
I know that sounds like a very violentthing, but it breaks myheart.
Iknow, but this tiger's cage piece is I say tothem,okay, so cagecat.
Now we're far enough from thatcat.
You'relike, is that a cat or is that atiger?
Hmm. It's only one way to find out and they'llsay,no, I want to find out which one itis.
I'llsay, go and go in thecage, which means have theinteraction.
Think it's going to bedifferent.
Tell them that they'll tell them you're good news and think they're going to be happy for you or confront them onsomething, whatever itis.
And it pains me as a therapist because you know how it's going to godown,right?
And they go in andinvariably, like if it was atiger, what's a tiger green todo?
It's going to tear off your arms and legs and tear your throatout.
If it's akitten,well, you just got yourself a new littlepet.
Sometimes they go in and they have the difficultconversation.
I'd say one in a thousandtimes.
It's a littlekitty. They misjudge theperson.
More oftennot, I get this torn apart person and they'resaying, it's a good cup oftea,right?
You told me and I went in there and Isay, but this ismaterial.
So let's break itdown. Those kinds of almost real time analyses of these things are how we dismantle thehope.
Imean, it's almost like an addict in thatway.
Mal, how many times does it have to pile up before a person hits rockbottom?
It depends on theperson.
It depends on theperson.
I really trying to get the survivor to their rockbottom.
Rock bottom is where hope goesaway.
I love the Icklist. And one of the reasons why I love this idea of taking and writing down in the physicalworld, a list of all the things this person said or did or didn't do or whatever it was that gives you the gigantic Ick is that it's in black andwhite.
Correct. And I can see in my own life that when I think about another person who got into a relationship where there was a lot of lovebombing.
And the person they were dating came on way too strong and huge red flag for mewatching.
Obviously, where you're in the middle ofit, you're enjoying the ride as the person that's getting lovebomb, but then the devaluing started always and the lying started and the discarding started and then the love bombing comesback.
And I remember being in conversations with this person and they had zero recall of thedevaluing, but youknow, you're only focusing on thegood.
Remember the time they disappeared for threedays?
Remember the time where they denied doing drugs and now you're learning they're selling them toeverybody.
Remember thetime, youknow, like I'm all of thisstuff.
And I think having it in black and white is a really good strategy because I can even think about my own life dealing with somebody close to me of the narcissistic personalitystyle.
And how often I'mlike,yeah, but five years ago when this was goingon, they were reallygreat.
And they had a hardchildhood.
And I want to keep coming back to the hope piece because I do see how hoping that something's going to change keeps youtrapped.
Correct. And what other strategies are there for somebody that is listening sees themselves and islike, but I do hope theychange.
And it's hard for somebody like mebecause, youknow,Dr.
Romney, I'mlike, but anybody canchange.
Anyone can change a narcissistic person won'tchange.
Oh, that's a bigdifference.
Anybody can change a narcissistic personwon't.
Oh, that'sthings. And hoping that they will keeps youtrapped.
Right. And I think that that can't won't distinction becomesimportant.
But there'ssaying, you tell me they can'tchange.
They can'tchange. They can'tchange.
Maybe that's a languageissue.
I suppose anyonecould, but theywon't.
And I guarantee you theywon't.
You just have a way with words and a way of explainingthings,Dr.
Romney, that I soappreciate.
So one of the things that I also read about in your new book is this 12 monthcleanse.
And I want to take a short break to hear a word from oursponsors.
They allow me to bring this amazing information toyou.
It's yourcost. And when wereturn, we are going to jump into more on how youheal, how youthrive.
And she's going to cover this 12 monthcleanse.
Stay withus.Hey, it's your friendMal.
I'm so glad that you are stillhere.
I'm here withDr. RomneyDiversala.
And we are talking all things healing and thriving after being in a relationship with anarcissist.
SoDr.Romney, how can you address the kind of wounds that you have personally from surviving narcissistic abuse and still also like keep yourself from falling back into a relationship with somebody new that exhibits these behavior because I also read in your book that you're sort of more susceptible to this dynamic once you've been init.
If you haven't learned aboutit,right?
See, that's the big if it's like a lot of people might go unceasingly from narcissistic relationship to narcissistic relationship to narcissistic relationship because in all ofthis, they just think I'm just getting into bad relationships or I'm just meeting a lot of badguys.
I'mlike,no,no,no,no,no, this is aboutnarcissism.
And and it's narcissism isn't just about the personality of thatperson.
It's really about the tactics that they employ in a relationship and why they're so appealing and then why they're sodestabilizing,right?
It's both of those thingshappening.
Ifanything,Mel, I have to tell you people who have gone through narcissisticrelationships,right?
And then they're going back out there and considering dating again and all ofthat, theyovercorrect.
Now, here's one thingI, what does thatmean?
I'll tell you in asecond, let me let me lay out some groundwork here because people don't like the suggestion of about to make an I'm aware they don't likeit.
And I don'tcare. I'm going to make it and I make it all the days of mylife, which is what I call the 12 monthcleanse.
The 12 month cleanse meansnothing, nodating, nosex, no onlinedating, no flirtytexting,nada,nothing, oneyear.
And people arelike, are you out of yourmind?
I've been lonely for 10 years in thismarriage.
I haven't even really beentouched.
They've been touching everyoneelse.
Just notme. I want tofeel, now peoplesay, I was only with that narcissistic fool for sixmonths.
You tell mesix, Isaid,no, if the relationship is under ayear, then your cleanse needs to be for as long as a relationshiplasted.
But if it was even if it was 30years, 40years, oneyear, one yearoff, why youask?
Because it waslike, what is that going todo?
What we lose in these relationships isourselves, our entire sense of selfauthenticity, who weare, what we'reabout, ourvalues, ourjudgment,our,our, thiseverything, it'sgone.
It'sgone.Right? To build that backup, to figureout, do you actually like pepperoni on yourpizza?
Where do you want the thermostatsaid?
What do you like to watch onTV?
How many covers you want in theblanket?
That takes ayear. And I'm going for the easystuff, the pizza toppings and the TVshows.
It's when you're feelingsad, where do you want to takethat?
It's a year of figuring yourselfout, which most people neverdo.
And there are don'tlives, by theway.
And then you throw inthere, you're a Vanniversarydates, yourbirthday, withoutthem, theirbirthday, withoutthem,holiday,summertime, whatever itis, because every one of those scripts needs to be rewrittenover.
And you can't do it if there's already someone else inthere, praying upon and playing upon your tendency to want toplease, even if it's a healthyperson.
After thatyear, you've grown more accustomed to being withyourself, because the reflexive playis,listen, there's nothing that feels better than arebound,right?
I'm going to quickly go in there and have someone sendme, you're myqueen, nonsensetax, and I'm going to get overthis,no, you'renot, because tome, I understand that's a short-termplay, and that's going to feel really good for aminute, like the hair of thedog,right?
But what we need people todo, this is tome, is a lifelongplay.
You need to be comfortable withyourself.
And every client I could get through thatyear.
Andinitially, they looked at meincredulously, and Isaid,listen, I am not thepolice.
If you decide to go and have a relationship in these 12months, the only thing I'm going to say is this is going to prolong thisprocess.
The ones who listen got to the other end of that year andsaid, thank you somuch.
You'relike, now I'm so much morestable.
They're stillhurting.
They were stillstruggling.
But what they didn't do wassuccumb.
And what's happened is they're getting the most essential skill to heal from narcissisticabuse.
And that'sdiscernment.
Discernment,listen, think of it thisway,Mel.
When I look andsee, I readonline, I look how people live theirlives.
How careful I waslike, I'm using this specially sourced tea from a mountain top inNepal.
We're only virgin goats would ever go to have sex for the firsttime.
I'mlike, you went through that much damn trouble to get thosetealies.
And you are not paying attention to someone love bombingyou.
Like be as discerning in your relationships as you are about what you put in yourmouth, what you put on yourbody, yourgym, yourworkouts, everyone'slike,well, thiswellness, this is where wellnessbegins.
How you decide who comes into yourlife.
That'sdiscernment. And that's the skill you need a year off to start building thatmuscle.
I could not agreemore. I could not agreemore.
Can we talk about this kind of healing process inside afamily?
Because let's just say that it's not somebody that has divorced you or you've broken up with them and you're kind of grappling withthe,okay, I got to dismantle thehope.
Then I got to give up the fact that this just doesn't feelright.
They've already movedon.
And now that person's going on thetrip.
And that person is now friends with theirfriends.
And you get through all ofthat.
You recognize it's not going tochange.
You've spent youryear.
You've made yourIqlist.
You getit. You kind of can move onnow,right?
What if it'sfamily? What if it'sfamily?
And you are not going to cut the narcissistic family member out of yourlife.
Whether it's because that's just not the kind of parent you are if it's your child or it's not kind of like daughter or son you are if it's yourparent.
And every year comes around and it is that person'sbirthday.
And it is the holidaytime.
And that person is still in yourlife.
How do you cope with thegrief?
That's the word that yousaid.
Grief is a huge part ofthis.
I'm glad you put it the way youdid, which is how do we cope with thegrief?
Because there's no getting rid of thegrief,right?
Every year when you or every month or however often you have contact with thisperson, even every phonecall.
The disappointment is experienced andnew, especially when it's a family member because not invariably these are people who have been around since you were achild.
So the anticipation that this is the time they're going tocare.
This is the time they're going to benice.
It's a constantrecalibration.
That's the only way I can put it is that you because what happens is there might be you have actually lovely people in yourlife, goodfriends, goodpartner.
And then you go to this family that is sounkind.
And then your even that vacillation between those two spaces can actually your friends can give you faith in human beingsagain.
And then you go back to your family and all that face goes away reallyfast.
And so part of it is something isdownright, justpreparation.
In thebook, it's called the Prepare and ReleaseMethod, which is you've got to prepare for theseencounters.
You can't go in colds like you're stretching for aworkout.
You don't justsay,well, I feel likeworking, I feel like running put on the sneakers in your business clothes go running down thestreet,right?
There's a process you stretch out yourmuscles.
You're going to crampup.
It's the same thing when you know you're going to see the narcissistic familymember, whether you see them every day or once a month or once ayear, which is you really sit down andsay, this year's going to be nodifferent.
This time's going to be nodifferent.
They have absolutely no interest in what I have tosay.
They're going to make it all aboutthem.
And many of myclients, infact, one of myclients, she said it beautifully when she said she plays narcissistbingo.
And the bingo is likeinvalidation,ding,gaslight,ding,ding.
Andlike, and shesaid, it's all I can do to not to hold back when I get five of them in a row to not saybingo, like you win and get yourself a present because it's all going tohappen.
So preparingyourself, you can almost turn it into a little bit of a chuckle like here wego.
And I haveto, I definitely do a lot of narcissists bingo and familysystems.
And I do have to catch myself from smiling because then people think I'm smirking or I'm lost mymind.
Like, why are you smiling rightnow?
Mostly it's because I got bingo and I bet myself a dairy queen on the way home that Iwon.
But as much as I'm making light of it is the preparation for what this encounter is going to belike,right?
Because it willhurt. And you will be filled with grief because thisperson, a parent was supposed to be aparent.
And you recognize in that moment the things that still you struggle with because that parent wasn't those things instead of beingsupportive.
They were invalidating on and on and on andon.
Right. And what that means then is the other book end to thispreparation.
You go throughit. But being prepared while it won't eradicate thegrief, it can sometimesmodify.
It can definitely bring it down a little bit and saylike,okay, that was what I expected it tobe, which means the other book and the release part is you've got to give yourself downtimeafterwards.
The best self-care you can do is after theconversation, not have a meeting books right in there or take a nap or take a shower or take a walk or whatever it is that you do to feel replenishedagain.
These have to be intentionalprocesses.
And when you treat it likethat, it puts the harsh glare onlike,yeah, this is nothealthy.
I however feel whatever duty-bound obligationbound.
There's other people in this family system I actually really careabout.
You have to keep plugging back into yourintention, which is why do I keep interacting with thisperson?
And whatever your reasonis, it'sfine.
As long as your reason'snot, because thistime, I think it's going to bedifferent.
Well, I love that distinction because you're basically just coming back to the very simple fact that the only option here is radicalacceptance, which is this is thesituation.
This is thesituation. There is no changingit.
And I may hope it's going tochange, but it's never going tochange.
And that's why I feel grief aboutthis.
You write about this in your newbook.
And I found it fascinating that when there is a narcissisticparent, there are typically roles that people tend to fall into in their family that kind of keep this dynamic proppedup.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
So anytime you havethem, the more dysfunctional the familysystem, the more we get put into theseconcrete, codified roles instead of having the flexibility of being able to be who weare.
So we're not stuck in arole.
And in our narcissistic familysystem, there's two classicalroles.
One is the goldenchild.
The golden child is the anointed eraparent, the one who can kind of sort of do nowrong, but is sort of the hope of thefamily.
And some families that sayfirst, it's ason, it's the eldest son because of whatever cultural issuesare.
Sometimes it's the child that most physically resembles theparent.
Sometimes it's the child that does the things that the parentwants.
They succeed at the sport that the parent wants orwhatever.
And maybe sometimes it's just a kid that's justhelpful, mindingme, the kid that mixesmoms,martini, whatever itis, it's that kid who is the best source ofsupply.
That's the goldenchild,okay?
And all other children will be compared against that child in any home that's not a single siblinghome.
But if it's sometimes there's cousins and others that might be compared to thatchild.
The second role that we always see in a narcissistic family system is ascapegoat.
This is the child that gets the venom of the narcissisticparent.
And is really that that's sort of more of the more the punchingbag.
I'd see the golden child's thepacifier, the scapegoat is the punchingbag.
And this is the child who may not look the way the parentwants, behave the way the parent wants is not doesn't do the things the way the parent wants themto, whatever it may be may actually be mouthy may call the parent out may challenge the parent maysay,well, how come you're not treating us better and that child will get the wrath of the narcissistic parent orparents.
The scapegoat role is nojoke.
Anyone who's listening tothis, who was the scapegoat as a child will say the wounds of that role stuck with them untiladulthood, they never feltsafe.
And it's a horrific role because the scapegoat a child will often see that other siblings and other people in the family system are being treated significantly better thanthem.
It's not like everyone's being uniformly abused that they are getting the worst ofit.
And that idea that others are that in in realtime, you can see that you're getting it worse than others can really do can really do a psychological number on aperson.
But the roles aren't just limited to those other roles include therescuer.
The sort of the rescuer sort offixer, if youwill, this is the kid who's sort of always trying to make things right they clean up afterdinner.
They make sure everything's runningwell.
They kind of take away all the stressors that could set off the narcissisticparent.
They're the one that almost feels anxiety while they hear the parents car come up the driverlike, we need to cleanup.
We need to clean up youguys.
Comeon, comeon, comeon.
It's a lot of that anxietyrescuers.
They tend to be rescuers well intoadulthood.
Like we got to make itbetter.
We got to make itbetter.
They tend to beappeasers.
They tend to be those appeasers in the family system throughadulthood.
The the the peacekeepers are sort of the diplomats of thefamily.
The rescuers are often doing things like let's clean up thepeacekeeper, thediplomat, these are the people that arelike,no,no,no, that's not what mommeant.
Mom didn't meanthat. I thinkmom, you were trying to tell you were trying to tell Billy that you you kind of likedit,right?
And they're constantly trying to get in there like some really hapless UN diplomat trying to make peace between countries who don't wantit.
And the peacekeeper diplomat child is always on edge like watching for so they never get to relax or always payingattention.
Then there's the invisiblechild.
Have a big enough narcissistic familysystem.
This is a kid that literally getsforgotten.
They may be veryindependent.
They may be veryquiet, but they're veryforgotten.
And oftentimes they're interest aren'tcultivated.
Sometimes they're not even picked up fromschool.
Like we're talking to that invisible and the laughing because that's myhusband.
And the final role is something we either call the truth teller or the truthseer.
It depends on how much they'retelling.
The truthseer, truth teller role can overlap with thescapegoat, but this is a very interestingrole.
This is the kid who gets it and seesit.
Even as young as five orsix.
They will see apattern.
And when they're little little and they don't know toinhibit, they'llsay, how come you saidthat?
How come you did that mean thing tograndma?
And that that that narcissistic person likes like the eye of Sauron andLord, they'll belike,what?
And that kid can go to scapegoat likethat.
Some truth seer kids don't say aword.
They just watch all of this and they're veryaware, acutely where there's almost like a a gift did feel to them in the sense of they're very aware of who the playersare.
It's so fascinating though because one thing we know about narcissistic people is they're very socially perceptive for how unimpathic theyare, for how selfish theyare.
They can read a room really well in the sense of how it affectsthem.
So if they sent someone has theirnumber, they're ontothem.
So that truth seer kid in a way is kind of in a position of risk because the narcissistic person parent can almost feel that child'scontempt.
Like the child is almost seeing like somethingcool.
And the kid may not even be sayingit.
It's a very subtledynamic, but I've worked with a lot of survivors who willsay, I knew this was amess.
And somehow my parent knew Iknew.
And that really put me in theircrosshairs.
Is it normal when somebody starts to wake up and see and accept the situation for what itis?
Is anger part of thistoo?
Oh heckyeah.Yeah, anger'sgreat.
Anger's my favoriteemotion.
Let me tell youwhy. Please because I also think a lot about the fact that if there is a parent that's narcissistic and your parents are stilltogether, there is also a parent that didn't protect you from thatperson.
That'sright.Right. So there's the end that's where we start getting into theweeds.
So why is anger so great for survivors because it's a mobilizingemotion.
It's an activatingemotion,right?
Unlike sadness or anxiety that can create a heaviness or even anapathy, anger is a let's goemotion,right?
But anger scaresus. And we think that anger is being a narcissisticemotion, but in fact the narcissistic people arerageful.
Notangry. Anger isgreat.
And when something isunjust, anger is what we shouldfeel.
Like this is notokay,right?
And anger is a stage ofgrief.
So anger and grief very much gotogether.
So let's assume that you've got a narcissistic parent and a non-n narcissisticparent,right?
Because some people have two narcissistic parents and all I can say is that I promise there's a special partner of heaven forthem, but more often thannot, it's a narcissistic parent and a non-n narcissisticparent.
And this gets complicated because what many people will say is I'm very aware of the suffering that my non-n narcissistic parent did endure attimes.
They werehumiliated, they wereembarrassed, they werecriticized.
The real agony is the sense of abandonment that the child feels by that non-n narcissistic parent thinking like you were theparent.
It was your job to keep ussafe.
And for an adult in that situation it becomes a very complex set ofemotions.
Whatever that case maybe, sometimes people will say I get why they didn't fight back and I get that they were going through their ownthing.
And then there's often a sense of guilt at being angry at the non-n narcissistic parent for not fighting harder forthem.
And then an a sense of anger for feeling abandoned by thatperson.
So when you combine anger and guilt and empathy into ablender, it is one of the most difficult to swallow smoothies you are ever going to taste in yourlife.
What do youdo? I may be seeking personal advicehere.
When the narcissistic parent has died and now they are the golden person and the way in which the narrative about that person is being told publicly is just so glowing and sowonderful.
And you see the surviving parent waxing on and on and on about the narcissistic one and you're sitting there going that's nottrue.
This is an interesting kind ofconundrum.
And in some ways when the narcissistic person isgone, systems are often now willing to sort of hold them up because I think everyone's collectivelyrelieved.
So they get to kind of maintain this false narrative of now I can talk about them glowingly and I get to lookgood, which makes you wonder how much of that narcissism infected the entire system because you get to talk about the dead person like they're cool but because they're dead and they're not going to be able to keep bothering you and you get to seem like a great grieving person and you're sort of filling the grief role as it were of being the grieving widow or widow or whatever it maybe.
Now different people will approach thisdifferently.
Some people will say well now that that person's gone I'm going I'm going to speak my truth and I don'tcare.
Others will feel as though maybe this isn't the time because this person isgone.
It's going to be different in every system but that that complicated series of reactions after the death of a narcissistic person who had emotionally or otherwise harmed you is it's not an easy one and a lot of people say well now they'regone.
This is going to beeasy.
I like no I mean there's going to be some maybe pragmatic relief that you no longer need to deal with them and work around them but now the rest of the system is going to not going to have the same kind of clean series of reactions you do and so it gets messy and I think that it's giving yourself space to have the complex grief that a narcissistic law springs to be intherapy.
When people will say do I confront the family it's back to the tiger's cageokay.
What may happen is anytime you confront anyone in a narcissistic family system and just because a narcissist is dead doesn't mean this is still not a narcissistic familysystem.
The roles are still held all the toxic patterns are in place they don't just disappear with the narcissisticperson.
Well that's a huge point that you think because now the relationship is over or the person is dead that all of the wreckage no now you're just dealing with the homage to the narcissist in many ways is that the family system stays exactly thesame.
Oh thatsucks. It reallysucks.
Well because I'm also thinking about the example of that I'm sure so many of you listening can relate to which is you have children with anarcissist.
The relationship ends and you not only have to deal with that sort of sense of this isn'tfair.
This person has moved on everybody's rallied aroundthem.
All is forgiven I'm sitting here holding the bag I you know whether it's the hope or I won't allow myself to grieve but then your kids have their own relationship with thisperson.
That'sright. What are strategies that you can use when you are in a system that is still active whether it's because you share children with somebody or because you're part of a family system where there's been narcissisticabuse.
How do you protectyourself?
Part of it is the radical acceptance that the system is still thesystem.
Right that the narcissistic person in a way has sort of if you will infected the system in a way and that those roles roles keep us comfortable in a way they keep ussafe.
That's why dysfunctional systems call for roles because they create a sense of of either safety ordefinition.
I don't know that the scapegoat role keeps someone safe but it's very clear roleright.
So it's the radical acceptance that those things are going topersist.
Then there has to be again an intentional self exploration of how do I want the people who remain in the system to remain in mylife.
If you are co-parenting and you have adult children with a narcissistic person with whom you're no longer in a relationship don't ever gaslight your kids but also don't proselytize themeither.
What does that evenmean?
It's not your job to convince your kids that their other parent isnarcissistic.
It's actually notokay.
If they come to that awareness themselves they can shareit.
You don't want to jump on it like yeah isn't either worse but like that's a lot to takein.
Do you want to talk aboutit?
This may not feel the safestplace.
Like I hope you do get to exploreit.
How can I be a support to you as you figure thisout?
Because it's noteasy. You know though I would imagine in that scenario that if you're somebody who feels like this isn't just and your adult kids come around and they finally come to you and saymom, dad's anarcissist, you'reright.
Your first reaction is going to befinally.
You know what Imean? Like you're going to say something that's not you will because that's the justice you're lookingfor.
Correct. It is the justice you're looking for but you want to tread lightly because your kids feel loyal to their parents even their narcissisticparents.
And they're testing thewaters.
Don't think they're coming in here to say your comrades andarms.
They're testing thewaters.
And if you're tooenthusiastic, you may be viewed as aproblem.
But like if theysay, you knowmom, I'm sosorry.
We never made this easier foryou.
It is soclear. He isnarcissistic.
We went on this ski trip with him and his newgirlfriend.
Oh mygod. And then again at the highest highest level of functioning you'dsay, I mean do you want to talk aboutit?
Do younot? I understand if you don't feel comfortable aboutit, but it's alot.
I hearyou. I getit. By saying I getit.
That's really code foryeah.
And then I'mhere. But you can have that justice withinyourself,Mel.
It doesn't have to be a justiceparade.
Well, I just feel like this is something that's incrediblyrelatable.
Even though this is not like validated by a scientificstudy, you basically feel after decades of doing this that one out of every five or so people display this narcissistic style ofpersonality.
So if I think about the fact that50% of relationships are more end of indivorce.
And I think about the number of people listening that are recognizing that they may have been married to somebody likethis.
Once you deal with your own radical acceptance and you give up hope that anything's going to change and you accept the situation for what itis.
And you stop looking for justice and you are in your own healing and you're using the tools in your newbook.
I would imagine that any parent listening would love to know the best way that they could accelerate the healing of their children fromthis.
How do you show up both for yourself and for the kids that are being impacted by thatparent?
So here's one thing to alwaysremember, nobody walks away from a narcissistic parentunscathed.
It's notpossible. No matterwhat, if a person has had a narcissisticparent, it will negatively affectyou.
Now in theextreme, obviously it'd be things like complextrauma.
Some people with narcissistic parent become narcissisticthemselves.
We might see things like addiction and response tothat.
The vast majority of people who had narcissistic parents develop significantanxiety.
Anxiety,self-doubt, socialanxiety, youknow, all the stuff that goes withthat.
Am I doingenough? Am Ienough?
That's sort ofthing,right?
But we'll put that in the bucket ofanxiety.
So if you are co-parenting in thatsituation, your kids will beanxious.
That's afact.Okay, that's numberone.
So let's startthere. Number two is don't try to fixit.
I think that the big mistake that we make with our kids is we try to solveproblems,right?
We are not their lifecoaches.
We are not their efficiencycoaches.
We are theirparents. And sometimes they're mad atus.
They're mad at us for having found this person and having kids withthem.
And they're never going to be able to put it in that manywords.
So there are times we will be these children's punchingbags,right?
We have different tolerances forthat.
Some behaviorsacceptable.
Some isnot. But it's to be that place where youkids, if they start talking aboutsomething, it's not how can we fixit.
It's how are youfeeling?
And then you cansay, how can Ihelp?
And it might be just tolisten, youknow, every kid's different in thesesituations.
And mel in the most tragic telling of thisstory, sometimes your kids ally with the narcissisticparent.
I know many people in the situation where they've lost at least one adultchild.
Narcissistic parents love bomb their kids when they'readults.
And when they come into a youngadulthood, now the narcissistic person has made their ownsupply.
You're it's pretty quite remarkable forthem.
And the one thing a narcissistic parent will often do if they've got it is usemoney.
I'll pay yourrent. I'll get yourapartment.
I'll get you acar. And depending on thekids, some kids don't fall forit, but somedo.
And they may feel a loyalty to thatparent.
They may feel sorry for thatparent, but they also may be calculatingthemselves.
And if thatother, if the narcissistic co-parent is somebody who is willing to say terrible things about the otherparent, then you might have lost thisbattle.
And I think that's a very unique situation whenpeople, because you might have multiplekids.
And some of your kids still have a relationship withyou.
And some of them have gone over to the narcissisticparent, but people only have one or twokids.
And they've all allied with that otherparent.
That is something that some people say they may not ever be able to fullygrief.
You said that the grieving part of this is the hardestpart.
So what are the tools that you can use to help yourself grieve when you are recovering from a narcissisticrelationship?
Numberone, recognize it as aloss.
And infact, the person going through this kind oflosses, I think it's on the level of morecomplicated, even than the loss of adeath.
So it's the giving yourself grief takestime.
When we have a grief laid inloss, like adeath, wemourn.
We think of the Tibetan 49days.
We think of sitting Shiva for loss for people who observe the Jewishfaith.
We think about the various ways it shows up indifferent, in some cultures in South Asianculture.
We can't touch each other in a certain period of time after there's been a loss in thefamily.
You don't go to atemple.
You don't share foodtogether.
So it's always going to bedifferent,right?
But those rituals ground us inloss.
There are times when we're allowed to press the stop button on the clock and attend toourselves.
We don't build that time in when it's this kind ofgrief.
So a person has to take that for themselves and build in that kind oftime.
As I'm thinking aboutthis, the grief has been really helpful as a concept for moving through a narcissistic relationship because it allows you to engage in radicalacceptance, give up the hope that it's going tochange, and to accept it for what itis.
And tome, being able to grieve that either your parent wasn't who you wanted or deserved or your spouse wasn't who you wanted ordeserved, to me feels like a mentally healthy response to a situation like this versus the bashing of what's wrong withme, what's wrong withme, which just makes you feelworse.
Correct. But what happens when you get stuck in that kind of rumination of why was I sostupid, why didn't I see thisbefore?
Why didn't I move onearlier?
Do you have tools for how you get overthat?
That in a strange way could be a little bit easier is it's almost like somebodysaying,well, why didn't I know the answer to this examquestion?
I'mlike,well, because it was never taught toyou,right?
Younever, it was nevertold, we don't teach us in highschool.
Who's going to teach youthis,right?
Your parents didn't teachyou.
High school didn't teachyou.
College didn't teachyou.
Imean, I guess now with the advent of things like YouTube andstuff, peopleare, youknow, people might get it thatway, but some people don't even know what it'scalled.
So we're talking about a relatively recent phenomenon that people are understanding what this thingis.
So how were you to knowit?
Every single person around you is tellingyou, forgivethem.
They didn't meanit. This is who theyare.
They didn't mean it when they saidit.
That's what everyone around you issaying.
And then the narcissistic person themselves issaying, I never saidthat.
You'recrazy. There's something wrong withyou.
You make a big deal out ofeverything.
You're toosensitive. If those are the two sets of voices coming atyou, how the hell would you have known what thiswas?
It'strue. And I feel like a first class jerk now because I have been in situations where even though I've been the victim of narcissisticabuse, I've looked at other peoplethough.
I've beenlike, what's wrong withyou?
Can't you seethis? Why are you still worrying aboutit?
So I apologize to those of you listening that I did thattoo.
Because you'reright. If you don'tknow, how are you going toknow?
But now youdo. So let's talk about the grieving process for those of us that choose to stay in a family system or in a relationship with somebody who we are veryclear, has a narcissistic personalitystyle.
We have acceptedit. We have given uphope.
But how do wegrieve? How do we protectourselves?
What are the tools that we need to be able to remain healthy and separate in a situation where we've accepted thereality?
That would gas about50% of people in narcissistic intimate relationships stay inthem.
So let's talk about the staying for some is more common than theleaving.
So keep that inmind. But then so numberone, people don't think this is grief because you're init.
It isgrief. So treat it assuch.
Because what's been taken fromyou?
You've losthope. You've lost the idea that there would be a somedaybetter.
You recognize that your childhood was amess.
You recognize the lost potential withinyourself.
I think to me the real tragedy that I see with many clients who go through this is theysay, had this beendifferent?
Had I had a parent who saw me clearly who actually stepped out of their selfish haze long enough to sort of seeme.
I would not be 45 in figuring stuff out in life for the first freakingtime.
That at 45 they feel behind all theirpeers.
I wouldn't have been in three wreckedmarriages.
It's not that they're saying they were in that people were takingresponsibility.
Like I made themess. I recognizedthat.
But my god if I'd been given the righttools, it's like somebody whosaid,oh, I tried to build a house and all I had was a glue gun and astapler.
I'mlike,yeah, now there's this thing called a drill and all this otherstuff.
But you recognize that holycrap, there are all these tools that some peoplehave.
And I still try to make a horse race ofit.
There's asadness. So I think that people are grieving the loss ofthemselves,really.
If you know David Kessler'swork, the loss has to be gonethrough.
There's no rushingthis.
What I love about David's work is he talks about the meaning and purpose we derive meaning more than anything from the process of grief and the same applies in narcissistic relationships because I say this to every survivor of narcissisticrelationships, mygod, you are tougher thanhell.
Sobasically, everyone else was running a marathon just on the flat ground and they sent you on the wrong path and they put this weird 400 pound back back on you andsaid,oh, the marathon goes uphill and you still finish themarathon.
No, you didn't win or get amedal.
Oh mygod, you finished and that there's atoughness, aflexibility, aresilience, adiscernment, acleverness, a knowing that survivors of narcissistic abuse have unlike any clinical population I've ever worked with in mycareer.
They'refantastic. I say this is a survivor myself and I have so muchgrief, mel over how late in the game and still struggle withyou.
So it's some nice things to me today and more often than not I've put myself down and I made a joke aboutit.
But I don't know that I'll ever get to a place where I'll ever fully valuemyself.
Part of my journey of grief is recognizing that I'm never going to get there and instead I say every day I'm going to wake up and I'm going to fight the good fight and I feel privileged to get to do what Ido.
But there are holes in me and some days I grieve those holes and some days I embrace thoseholes.
I could not do what I do unless I had gone throughthis.
That to me feels like a gift fromGod.
That I was given thisgift.
I was given a voice that every generation ofwomen, before me and myfamily, nevergot.
Narcissism is endemic in patriarchalcultures.
So I think tomyself, you could have either sat there and felt bad for yourself or say you've been given an opportunity but myGod, myheart, I didn't know the number of ways of heart could bebroken.
But thereare, you have noidea.
Like there isways, hearts can be broken that are diabolical and I had experienced a lot ofthem.
Didn't know how to get into an adultrelationship.
And so and I still show up into a lot of these narcissisticrelationships.
I am tired and that's what a lot of survivorssay.
But what comes out of this grief is that some days are veryhard.
Many days aregreat. There are lots of dark nights of the soul but I finished the marathon even though someone threw that backpack on my back and set me on the uphilltrack.
Well, here's what I want to tell you that the moment in time that you learn this is the moment in time when you're ready to hearit.
And do something aboutit.
Exactly.Right. And as much as this is a very dark and heavytopic, you have in your newbook, it's notyou, practicaltools, tremendous research and a huge message of hope that first ofall, it's notyou, you're not theproblem.
The second that you practice radical acceptance and you accept it for what it is and you allow yourself togrieve, which means you are finally giving yourself the validation that you deserve somethingelse.
I think there's not only a huge opportunity for what comes next foryou, but I feel very hopeful that the louder that you get and the more people talk about this and share yourwork, the more opportunity there is for people to break the chains of this and their family systems and to do thework, to heal from this kind ofabuse, to recognize it when it is happening in yourlife, to protect yourself from it and tothrive.
No, I absolutely believethat.
And that's what happens in the healing process is that the survivors of narcissistic abuse aretransformed.
You don't allow your sense of self to be stolen the way it had tobe.
This does not mean you cut yourself out from everyone in yourlife.
It's that when after youheal, as youheal, when you show back up into these spaces in yourlife, you show up knowing who you are and through thisprocess, all of you will become truth seers and you'll navigate your life in a very differentway.
Dr.Romani, on behalf ofeverybody, thankyou, thankyou, thank you for beinghere.
Thank you somuch,Mel, thankyou.
You areextraordinary.
I always learn something from you and I feel hopeful and empowered and equipped to continue on myjourney.
And I want to make sure that I tell you that in case no one else tells you that I believe in you and I love you and I believe in your ability to take the tools that you've justlearned, heal yourself and create a betterlife.
Let's dothis. I wish you like Shay is directing like a 747 overthere.
So behind theblind, this is a747.
Controlpanel, you know what I'msaying?
Yeah, let me just get my hair up here because it'll flopdown.
Allright. You guysstart,okay.
Allright.Dr.Romani, ohno,go, you takethat.
I waslike, what am I going todo?
I felt like I had like still had a shoplifted.
Oh,sorry. What do I do withthis?
You do where weare. We're going to wait and it's known todo.
You take thetime. With the world-renowned expert inresearch,Dr.
Ramonoli,Jesus. Let me go back up a minute that I keep seeing the most inthe...
Holdon. Say thatagain.
Wait, what am Idoing?Oh, oh mygod.
Okay, youready?Okay,gotcha.
Okay. Thankyou.Oh, and one morething.
I know this is not ablooper.
This is the legallanguage.
Youknow, what the lawyer's right and what I need to read toyou.
This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainmentpurposes.
I'm just yourfriend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of aphysician, professionalcoach,psychotherapist, or other qualifiedprofessional.
Gotit?Good. I'll see you in the nextepisode.
