Talk to me about what's happened to plastic surgery over time.
Have we seen increases in it?
Have the types changed?
What's the context of people getting different looks?
The Kardashians did the VBL for a while.
Is that still in?
Now it is breast augmentation for Gen Z women.
So they are actually, boob jobs are very popular among that cohort.
I do think that's influenced by pornography, also labiaplasty.
I was just looking actually at a study a couple nights ago showing that women, Very many young women, feel self-conscious about their labia and are actually getting these procedures done, which is also influenced from porn.
And it, I mean, it's just crazy to me.
It makes me wonder, is that why people are not interested in having sex?
Same with guys.
Guys are getting filler injections into their penis for even sexting purposes.
Like they just want to look better.
That's so good.
George, my housemate, used to make this joke every time that we were on a plane.
It was the same, you know, someone, it's kind of like a dad joke, but he's not yet a dad.
And you know, those teeny tiny 175 mil cans of Diet Coke.
Yeah.
He would always say it's like I'd keep a hold of one of those and I'd go back and I'd take a dick pic with it in the background.
So it would make it look.
You know it's like oh, that's a 330 or a 355 mil pan, but i've kept, i've kept the airplane mini and that's.
You know comparatively, i should be doing that instead of getting the filler in their penis.
I agree, i agree, make diet coke mini, diet coke's great again.
Um so yeah you, i mean the labia, labiaplasty and the penis stuff.
It seems to be obvious that it would be influenced by porn.
But even things like I see news reports of women under 30 getting facelifts, getting upper eye lifts, right.
And, in my personal opinion, I don't think women that young need to be getting extensive work done because you do not have the signs of aging yet to justify.
What do you think they're trying to do?
Well, I think, um, if you look at say when women are the most fertile, it tends to be mid twenties.
So my sense is most women are trying to look like they're in their mid twenties.
So if you're older than that, you're going to try and look younger.
And if you're younger, you're trying to look older.
And so you're going to use, you're going to choose the fertile in the mid twenties, early to mid twenties.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I found out some really fucking uncomfortable data around when men are most fertile really young, it's really young, like illegal in some states, young and you go Really.
Which is just... I don't know.
We talk about women's biological clocks.
We never really think about... There's so much sperm, right?
Speak for yourself.
But there's so much sperm.
And you only need one.
They have a larger window, though.
They also have a larger... Like, men can still impregnate someone later on in life.
There are higher rates of chromosomal abnormalities, but the potential, Whereas for women it's a little bit more unforgiving.
But anyway, so you think...
I've seen, what is it, buccal fat?
Yeah, buccal fat removal, yeah.
The cheek fat thing?
What's that trying to achieve, do you think?
To look older, because you're removing the baby fat essentially in your face.
But what happens is as you get older, your face naturally loses fat, right?
And so you're going to look more gaunt.
You've overshot it.
Yeah, and then you might potentially need to use filler to...
So I got fat removal before I was 24.
And then after I was 28, I had to use filler to replace where I got rid of the fat.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean.
So I want to be clear, like I don't want to come down on men and women if they choose to get these procedures, because I understand, especially if you have a public facing job, there's a lot of pressure to keep your looks up and to look young.
But my concern is more so when it's really young people, or I would say even for men, who are doing this.
You really don't need to.
It is brutal.
I mean the Some of the young girls supposed to be young girls that I've seen videos of on TikTok.
These like 22, 23-year-old chicks and they look mid-30s or 40s.
With all of this work that's being done.
And I was thinking I was having a conversation last night about how the sort of ideal female form has changed, even with sort of relatively extreme cosmetic procedures.
So Geordie Shore, which was the British equivalent of Jersey Shore, that back in the day was a lot about fake tan.
Um, it was big hair.
Uh, it was almost pinnipy in a way.
There was tight suits too, weren't they?
That's because of, that's something else, but yes, that, that was sort of part.
I learned what chav was.
Chav, chav, exactly.
Well, look, be careful, right?
I, I, those were, those were my, no, those were my customers.
It's kind of like calling someone a hick.
No, it's not.
Okay.
Those were my, me too, but those were my customers for a very long time.
Um, it was fake tan.
It was, um, big boobs, maybe augmented, maybe not.
Brows too, very specific eyebrows.
Very painted on, sort of aggressive brows, big hair, tight dress, short dress, right?
I love that.
Just to be clear, I'm not making fun of it.
That aesthetic?
Yeah.
Strong aesthetic.
Yeah.
Great early 2010s aesthetic.
And the guy's equivalent.
I think up until probably about five years ago we were a little bit delayed on.
The guys thing was sort of big muscles, not so concerned with height, fake tan plunging V-neck neckline, tight jeans, expensive watch thing.
Jeans?
Yeah, maybe.
But so what I was trying to do this conversation I was having last night, which is so interesting.
I was trying to work out What was being signaled then and what's being signaled now.
Okay.
And I think what's being signaled now is a more extreme version of that by both men and women.
So the male thing, it's all about formidability now.
It's the over-exaggerated, handsome, Squidward.
Yeah. cheekbones and the jawline.
It's the height, the height.
But it's a lot less to do with, I'm not really seeing anyone talk about tan all that much.
Not even seeing if you look at- Dark brows are really big for guys.
The most popular looks, maxes.
Aren't that concerned with muscularity, extreme muscularity, in the way that it would have been 10 years ago?
10 years ago, it would have just been get as wide and as muscular as possible.
That's not quite the case now.
And then with the women it is.
Both of them are basically caricatures of the most sexually dimorphic physical traits right,
It's Fischerian runaway, I think it's called.
Where...
The stag deer that's got antlers so big that he can't lift his head up and he dies.
The peacock that's got such a ridiculous tail that he gets caught with the first second.
There's a predator around.
But he did some great boning on the way out.
That seems to be what's happening with men and women now.
It's just the next evolution.
It's more extreme limb lengthening surgery, the brows, the cheekbones, the mandible surgery, all that stuff.
For women especially, I think it can also be the equivalent of showing off an expensive handbag.
So instead of saying, here's my designer bag.
Here's my designer titties.
Or, you know, my lips or whatever.
Like, I have a man who will pay for my surgery and make me look like this.
It's a good argument for why I've heard about why women have long nails and long hair.
It's just fucking impractical.
It is itself a status of wealth and luxury that not only can I maintain them, but I have a life that requires so little hard labor that this hair and these nails and this makeup I mean female intersexual competition is just like fucking endlessly interesting.
Like shoes and bags, exclusively intersexual.
I do not know the difference between whatever you're wearing and something that was one-tenth the price and something that was a thousand times the price.
I have no idea.
But women do.
Women know.
And if you're in a relationship, it's basically a.
My man is so invested in me that he spent however much money on this thing.
So like, don't think, don't even think about going there.
Which is why I also think that women tend to go a little bit overboard in some cases with the work done, as a way to signal that they have the money and the resources or man that is paying for it.
Because usually when you think of plastic surgery, men don't like plastic surgery, typically.
Men, they don't like it in women because- What's the data there?
It masks their underlying health and fertility, right?
So if a woman can turn back the clock in terms of aging, signs of aging, or appear more attractive than she naturally was,
Maybe maybe you don't mind so much, but from the conversations I've had with men, men tend to not really like plastic surgery.
I agree.
I agree.
I mean uh, I saw this tweet after the Grammys that fucking ripped and it was men love Sydney Sweeney and hate Sabrina Carpenter.
Men, uh, women love Sabrina Carpenter and hate Sydney Sweeney.
And, um, The explanation that I saw, I was so fascinated by it.
I thought it was, and it seems to be pretty accurate.
I don't know that many guys that like, I love Sabrina carpenter.
And I don't know that many women that love Sydney Sweeney.
That's funny.
I've seen this.
I mean, I think they're both pretty, so I don't know.
I guess I'm like one of the odd ones need to be more judgmental.
Um, the ex best explanation that I saw was that Sabrina carpenter her physical presentation is basically gay and female coded.
Huh?
And Sydney Sweeney is sort of low maintenance natural male coded beauty, um less sort of curated in that sort of a way.
And uh, that low maintenance thing sort of seems to come across.
But yeah, I think the reliable signal of uh fitness, uh cue that's being sort of hidden by by lots of plastic surgery is so true.
And I get the sense.
I get the sense that um the lux maxing community for men is doing the same thing.
I was going to ask you about that.
Like, what are your views?
Because I, when I write about this, I get a lot of young men who get upset at me and say like you don't understand, right.
This is why you this is the.
This is the time for the fucking patriarchy to step.
In writing.
As a woman, sit down, let me mansplain to you.
Um, what do I think?
I think I have a really fucking, I think this is an interesting time.
My advice to guys is just work away, get rich, honestly.
Get rich.
Don't worry about all the taking the hormones to make your bone structure.
I would say get rich, get popular.
Looks are important, but you can make some pretty good changes just by becoming more diligent.
What I would say about the looks maxing thing is what guys seem to be optimizing for is formidability.
So they're optimizing for the sort of things that other men respect, not that women are attracted to.
So other men would.
If you look at most guys that have looks maxed and put them in front of women, I wonder whether women would find them more attractive.
So it's intersexual competition again.
Or whether men would find them more formidable.
I think that more men would find them more formidable than more women would find them more attractive.
Because most women are not looking for their guys to be hyper, hyper masculine like that.
There's even some evidence to suggest that women prefer a slightly feminized face with a masculinized body.
And not super jacked either.
No, not super jacked.
But they want average face or sometimes actually slightly feminized face with masculinized body.
But all of the guys are just pushing toward heavier brow, deeper jaw, stronger cheekbones.
But do you know the David Putz study that he did about when he brought people into the lab and got women to rate attractiveness and men to rate formidability?
Remind me.
So fucking good.
So photos of guys shown to women and men.
Women were asked to rank how attractive do you think this man is.
Men were asked to rank how likely do you think it is that you could beat this other man in a fight.
One year later, they brought the men from the photos into the lab and asked what their sexual success had been over the last year.
And the female ratings of attractiveness had basically zero predictive power for their sexual success.
But the male ratings of formidable.
Were very predictive.
Wow.
So, even though what I think is happening at level one this is like the Epstein files at level one, where he didn't kill himself is Lux maxes are optimizing for.
Formidability, because they're disregarding women, and it's intrasexual competition because I just want to mug other guys.
I just want to be better than other men.
Level two Epstein's still alive and playing Fortnite in Israel is actually by pursuing formidability.
They may end up closing their eyes and throwing the dart at the dartboard and hitting the bullseye of women actually finding them more attractive than if they'd tried to pursue attractiveness as the main outcome.
But this is again, this is working theory at the moment.
Yeah.
I mean cause.
I could see that in terms of tattoos, there've been studies to show that men, when they get tattoos, it actually is more so about scaring off their male rivals, because some women like tattoos but not all do.
And some women actually are turned off by tattoos.
So it's more again, like you said, of scaring off and beating your rivals than directly attracting women.
But I also wonder if it's that these men are projecting onto women their preferences.
So men care more about looks and youth.
I wonder if, when you look at say, marriage or marital satisfaction, whether men find their wives attractive has a greater correlation with their marital satisfaction than whether women find their husbands attractive.
So I wonder if these young guys are projecting onto women, thinking that women care so much about looks, when it's actually that's what they care about in their partners.
Oh, it's a failure of cross-sex mind reading, using their own assessment criteria and saying you must think the way that I think I'll do more beautification.
Well, Mac and Murphy's got this great idea where he talks about how the increases in male beautification are to try and offset this inability to get hypergamy to work.
That men have realized that because they can't win socioeconomically, They might have to turn the vanity mirror around in an attempt to out-beautify their socioeconomic lack.
Yeah.
Especially when they're young and they're just starting out in their career and they're thinking okay, how do I attract women?
I don't have the money yet.
I don't have the resources.
Well, I can just get really hot.
There's worse theories.
There are worse theories.
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Ooh, a tasty morsel of a clip there for you.
Well, the full episode is available right here.
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