Discussion keeps the worldturning.
This is RoundTable. You're listening to Round Table withmyself,Hayoung.
I'm joined by Dingheng in the studio and Josh Cotterell on the line coming up ready to flip tradition on itshead, meet the daringyouths, say Idon't, to long traditions of giving red envelopes atweddings.
A small but mighty group of young folks in Shenzhen challenge the norm of stuffing red envelopes withcash.
And as fashion retailthrives, a wide-do multi-brand boutique face an uphill battle to capture Chineseconsumers'hearts.
Are changing shopping habits and online competition reshaping the future of boutiqueretail.
If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in a futureshow, whether it be about something that happened in the news or something you've been wonderingabout, you could email us of Voice Memo2,eZFM,aroundtableatfoxmail.com.
And also you can always find a previous show on your favorite podcast platform at Round TableChina.
Now, aroundtable, as we continue today'sdiscussion.
It's rare to come across Chinese weddings that don't expect giftmoney.
And there are a few who dare to tell thecouple.
I wish you all thebest, but no redenvelope.
Gift money seems to be the elephant in theroom, a topic everyone's uncomfortablewith, yet few dare to confrontdirectly.
Recently, a young woman born in the 2000s from Shenzhen declared on her socialmedia, which at moments that she will not partake in the age-old practice of giving gift money at friendsweddings.
Her bold move has sparked a wave of discussion online with a small group of fearless youths who have actually followedsuit, who are challenging the norm by rejecting the tradition of stuffing redenvelopes.
How rare is thisDingheng?
Because inChina,well, it is kind of tough to dothis.
Yeah, I think on onehand, we do see this kind of sharing of their experiences on social media and generating a lot of or sparking a lot of onlinediscussion.
That's oneaspect. But I think the bigger picture is these acts of so-called resistance against the social tradition still remainlimited.
So I think it's still pretty rare because I thinktraditionally, a main starting point of giving gift money or a rent envelope during a wedding ceremony is that your relatives and your friends really come together to help reduce or jointly undertake the financial burden of holding a wedding ceremony because that's been costly under anycircumstances, whether it's the ancient period or the modernperiod.
Butreally, I think as time wentby, such a good intentioned practice has become more socially complicated because it has become deeply entrenched in our social norm and becoming deeply associated with other things like a social connection and phase which can bereally, really exhausting sometimes for individuals to dealwith.
Josh, are you familiar with thisidea?
Is it something that you've only encountered after arriving in China in attendedweddings?
Yeah,well, I've only been to a couple of weddings inChina, but it wasn't too surprising to me because I was already familiar with the red packet culture and I assumed that at an event as serious and significant asthis, that there probably would be redpackets.
I was quite surprised at how specific the amountwas.
So when I wentthere, there was a specific amount that everybody was expected to give and that was quite surprising to me becauseusually, because in theUK, people do give gifts at weddings usually and sometimes people even give a list of items for people to choosefrom.
But, and I guess there is a specific amount of money attached to all of thoseitems, but at the sametime, having a very specific amount that everybody has to pay seemed a bit surprising to me because ofcourse, how does one know how much money each person has to spend at thatmoment?
Right? It can be quitedifferent.
Well, you kind of know your per capita GDP of your region or I mean jokingaside,Josh, is thatnumber?
Okay, judging from yourtone, was it a little bit much more than youanticipated?
No, it wasokay, but it was just a bit of a shock to me that I was suddenly being asked for that money to attend thewedding.
But it wasfine. Imean, I wouldn't say it wascheap.
Youknow, it wasn't cheap atall.
It was more than I'm getting paid for this particular show rightnow, butstill, youknow, it wasn'toutrageous.
It was probably the amount that I would spend on a very nice wedding gift forsomebody, I wouldsay.
Yeah,see, whenever you mix goodwill and this isokay, a very important occasion for this person you know and mixing all that withmoney, with the financial aspect ofthings.
And then it just gets a little awkward and complicated in ourminds.
Andalso, when they're hosting thiswedding, yougo, you attend the ceremony and then you're there toeat.
So I feel really bad for getting into sort of a nitty gritty ofexpenditure.
Butyeah, sometimes the way I think about this is how close am I to the bride and groom andokay, how much might this dinner or lunch cost and really how close are we and what about the social expectation and the social expectation that's kind of the standard of the amount of money you're supposed to give and that you kind of ask around a little bit and gradually you kind of just know and then you do a little bit of a mental calculation and then nowadays people don't always arrive withcash.
You kind of just give beforehand via wechat or youknow, the digital payment way and that's how you doit.
Yeah, I'm sure you have some thoughtsabout, youknow, just kind of the complexities of this gift money givingculture.
Yeah, because this very practice of a wedding gift giving is seen as a symbol of sayrespect, gratitude or goodwill to your friends orrelatives.
So break intradition, maybe sing as a little disrespect tophone.
Now, some people say this kind of practice might help foster a sense of community and solidarity among individuals reinforcing social boundsetc.
etc. But I personally tend to take this idea with a grain of salt with some skepticism because I think nowadays I feel like this layer of social meaning is gradually fadingaway.
It's notdisappearing, but it's gradually fadingaway.
Comeon. Let's face the reality simply because you have given gift money to a person's wedding doesn't necessarily lead to a better or closer relationship between you and thisperson.
ButDingheng, if you don't give the giftmoney, is it goingto, youknow, sometimes put an end to that closenessor, youknow, maybe a close relationship that you hope tofoster.
Yeah. Like the not giving is such a big risk that it'll be confronted with a negative response and therefore you kind of just go along with the tide itfeels.
Yeah. So I personally would feel like there is really no clear cut answer on this question of give or not togive.
You really need to have your own assessment case bycase.
Like how much you really care about the relationship was this couple or this person and also the issue of reciprocity if during your ownwedding, this person have give you a huge amount of money as agift.
Then you need to return the same amount of goodwill during this person'swedding.
Oh. Also it works the other way round and that's why once you get on thishorse, it's difficult to getoff.
That is Joshy looks soconfused.
Okay. Let meexplain.Okay.
Let'ssay, youknow, your dear friend gets married and you feel kind of compelled to allright.
I'll present a big fat red packet to myfriend.
And allright. After the bigday, everybody has fun wishing you guys happily ever after and years later when you getmarried.
And if you break fromtradition, then sorry to put it thisway, then your investment will never get a return and not everyone is willing to accept that because it's almostlike,okay, you've invested in this and you hope to reap the return when the time comes and see that is really unfortunate for those single people or don't want to get married or don't get married for some reason because you don't have that chance to get the reciprocal act inreturn, yousee.
Soyeah, people kind of go through these calculations more orless.
So what do youthink,Josh?
Imean, in yourcountry, peopleexchange, should I say exchange while giving the gift for a wedding is prettycommon.
Although it's not measured directly maybe in monetaryterms, but still you got to pay to buy that gift and to give it to theperson, youknow, it's not like it's completely free fromthe, youknow, monetary aspect ofthings.
Yeah. Imean, I think that there's a good point there and it definitely takes some of the pressure away from buying a goodgift.
I personally hate buyinggifts.
Imean, if I can find a goodone, Ilook,yeah, Imean, I'd loveto.
But in theUK, that'snot, that's not a thing atall.
I think it might even be considered a bit rude to not get some on a giftsometimes,right?
Because there's more thought put into thegift.
I'm not a massive fan of gift giving atall.
Just, justperiod.Don't, don't like gift giving atall.
I think that it puts too much pressure on everybody involved and it can often lead to money beingwasted.
And so inChina, this tradition means that not a penny goes to wastereally.
Well, at leastthe, the bride andgroom, the couple get to waste that moneythemselves,right?
And I guess thatit, it's much more of a sort of fair away into somedegree.
So I do get yourpoint. And I think that it is extremelyvalid.
But I would vote for just removing giftsaltogether, including money and physical inanimate objects assuch.
Okay. So it's just going to be the bride andgroom.
Mywedding, my wedding sounds like a rightlaugh, doesn'tit?
It's reallyfunny. Imean, it's great on yourpart.
You're spending all this money to host a big partyand, youknow, gathering so many of your friendstogether, friends and familytogether, but you don't anticipate anything of a financial contribution fromthem.
And did I get thatright,Josh?
Yeah, prettymuch.Yeah.
Yeah. Andactually, I think this is happening in China too with some youngcouples.
And it's not just like in the last couple ofyears.
I've attended these weddings too when it's been madeobvious, blunt to everyone in the weddinginvitation.
Youknow, please just bring your beautiful self to ourwedding.
And we are not accepting any gifts or giftmoney.
And I thought that was reallynice.
And also thesedays, sometimes thenewlyweds, they invite you just to a dinner or toa, to a meal kind ofthing.
Maybe there is a necessarily the traditionalceremony.
And it's just announcing to family and friends and those closest to themthat,hey, youknow, we're getting married and come andeat.
Havefun. And that'sit.
And if you really want to pursue that tradition of redpackets, I don't think anybody's going to say a firm no toit, but sometimes theydo.
And so there are different ways to doit.
Okay, last question to youguys.
Are you four or against this opting out of wedding gift moneycustom?
Andalso, do you think this is going to become amovement?
However, side youchoose.
Yeah. Like I saidearlier,I, I don't have a clearanswer, but I feel like it's more of your personal assessment case bycase.
How much you really care about the relationship to thisperson.
And if it's aso, sorelationship, I feel like it's like an asset that if you makeinvestment, this asset will not become a better performingasset.
But if you don't do thisinvestment, this assets willdisappear.
So, so how to what extend do you really care about thisasset?
Well, I'd opt in right now because I don't want to stand out toomuch, especially given thatI'm, Imean, being a being a foreigner at thewedding, there's usually maybe only one or two of usthere, at least in my otherexperience.
So I would hate to stand out even more and belike, I'm not paying becauseI'm, youknow, they'd belike,oh, this foreigner coming here and breakingtraditions, youknow, I already stand outenough.
Anyway, that's being very self-centered of me to saythat.
Butyes, I wouldparticipate.
But as I mentionedbefore, not a big fan of wedding gifts or monetary gifts just in general forme, I think that it puts too much pressure on theguests.
And I'd be much more a fan ofjust, youknow, having a great big party and spending whatever money there is onthat.
Yeah. So whether this is going to become amovement, it may vary depending on factors such as generationalattitudes, societal values and the influence of socialmedia, in amplifyingvoices, advocating forchange.
And I have to say it's a very much welcome and maybe nessent change that is takingplace.
Comingup, fashion forward or fallingbehind.
We're delving into the complexities of multi-brand boutiques inChina.
Staytuned. You're listening to a round table withmyself.
How young I'm joined by Ding Hong in the studio in Josh Caterlale on theline.
Step into a multi-brand boutique or mychodian where curated collections from coveted labels await your discovery from timeless classics to the latest runwayssensations.
This multi-brand retail space is supposed to be a haven for fashionistas seeking unparalleled variety andsophistication.
Whether you are elevating your wardrobe or indulging andbrowsing, the type of boutique should deliver an unforgettable shopping experience celebrating individuality andelegance.
But inreality, rarely do multi-brand boutiques deliver on thatpromise.
And that partially explains why the business model doesn't work so well inChina.
Yeah, so basically I think this very concept of boutique store is essentially about buyers orconsumers, many of them couldn't just make ends meet and ended up inclosure.
Forexample, in January2023,Joyce, one of the oldest boutique stores in Hong Kong with over 50 years ofhistory, closed its store in Shanghai's biggest luxurymall.
That was basically the last remaining independent store of this brand here in the Chinesemainland.
And in May2023, another boutique store brand called Shoplink seized its businesses of manystores.
And now it has only one remaining offline store here in the city ofBeijing.
Yeah, and also Lane Crawford is associated with the Joycecompany.
And it's unfortunately closed one of its biggest stores in Beijing in Yintai Plaza a couple of yearsago.
But it's still got another really big storefront that is still up andrunning.
And I guess good luck to thesebusinesses.
ButJosh, apparently this business model or this concept of boutique stores of multiple brands originated in Europe and in England aswell.
And there are some really successful stories outthere.
And could you enlighten us with what makes themwork?
Yeah,absolutely.Well, as you mentionedbefore, boutique stores are really popular in Europe and in my owncountry.
And I think that there's various factors that contribute toit.
In theUK, for quite a longtime, there's been shoppingmalls.
And actually a lot of the original original shopping malls such asHarrods, which is one of the most famousmalls, department stores in theworld.
It is like a massive boutique storealmost.
It doesn't really feel like that when you goin.
It feels more like a department store because a department store basically being like a massive building where brands have their ownstore,right, withinit.
But actually a lot of these original big stores started out as sort of boutiquestores.
And people sort of expect this now in these countries because they can always just shoponline.
Imean, that's similar in China aswell, Iguess, but they can always just shop online if they want to get something better value or if they know theirsize.
But the reason that people go to boutique stores is tobrowse.
This is the word that is used often in the British Englishvocabulary.
I'm going to go to this village because they have nice boutique stores and I'm going to have abrowse.
I'm not going to buyanything, but you'll probably end up buyingsomething.
But people will literally go to all ofthese, youknow, very picturesque villages just to look around andbrowse.
And I guess it's just become part and parcel of Britishculture, youknow, in the same way that every culture has its quite strange and seemingly obscurethings.
Soyeah, boutique stores seem to fit inwell.
They also fit in quite well with cafeculture, tea drinking culture because tea drinking culture is usually something you'd maybe do on theweekend.
You'd go for awalk, browse somestores, have a cup of tea in the localcafe, maybe buy a postcard or somethingrandom.
I don't know what they sell inthere.
Youknow, I go in there and there's nothing that I need every time I go to thesestores.
It seems very strange tome, but my mum lovesthem.
She lovesthem.Yeah. I see what youmean.
And that kind of lifestyle is something or what you described as something I would like to have on my itinerary for thisSaturday.
ButJosh, I wouldn't go to that boutiquestore.
I would just go directly to whatever nice branded store it is and why go to this place where it'sgot,okay, youknow, a selection of different brands ofgoods.
Whereas you can go to the direct brand fashion powerhouse and enjoy very good service aswell.
So here's the question foryou,Dingheng.
What do you think is it that many boutique stores struggle to survive in the Chinese bustling retaillandscape?
I think the nature of the operation of boutique stores means that they have unstable businessmodel,maybe, because in order to strengthenmanagement, many high-end luxurybrands, they prefer direct sales network instead ofdistribution,right?
So they are not really that interested in terms of cooperating withboutiques.
Andsome, youknow, last well-known or the so-called second tier luxury brands or emerging brands for that matter are likely to cooperate with boutique stores because they want to use boutiques as a platform to increase people'sawareness, brands awareness or customerawareness.
However, once these brands come to a stage where they have become more well-known in themarkets, many of them will choose to withdraw from this kind of cooperation withboutiques.
Andalso, I thinkboutiques, there is a lower-profit margin because they actually have given up a large chunk of their profits for the sake of discounted sales in order to attractcustomers, but in themeantime, lower-profit margin also means less space forsurvival.
That's thereality.Also, I suppose they need to pay a licensing fee or some kind of distribution fee to the different brands just so that they can sell the goods in their retailspace.
And if you are a direct brandstore, then you don't need to pay so many extra fees on thatpossibly.
Also, in the multi-brand boutique businessmodel, the role of the buyer is paramount to the success of thestore.
Buyers are responsible for selecting the inventory that will be showcased and sold in the boutique and their decisions directly influence the store's brandidentity, customerappeal, and financialperformance, and has that brought incustomers.
Do customers see this as a reason to come to yourstore?
And I'm sorry tosay. It seems like theyhaven't.
That's not the case because althoughboutiques, they have more brands available in terms of the number ofbrands, but each brands have fewer options in terms of thesubcategories.
So it's pretty likely that you once you are really situated in thatstore, you really cannot find the right model or the exact right size that is the right foryou.
Yeah, maybe they only have one merchandise for every size and then it just quickly runsout.
Andalso, when you go to these boutiquestores, you immediately know quite clearly what isthe, Isuppose, the taste of the buyer and sometimes it does not align with yours and you just can't find the stuff youneed, the stuff youlike.
And I think that's a big issuehere.
So, youknow,Josh, given this predicament for these boutiquestores, do you think there's still a way to turn the businessaround?
Yeah, I thinkso. Imean, these boutique stores have a long history with fashionablecities,right?
If you go to any of the sort of big fashionable cities like Paris or London or Milan or evenShanghai, I wouldsay, is starting to get into those sort of top five big fashion cities in theworld.
You'll see a lot of boutique stores and they have successthere,right?
So, I think that they have to keep up to date and they have to sort of have their finger on the pulse withfashion.
And that's quite difficult to do because I think that's more about the overall environment of thatcity,right?
So, it's quite tricky if you're in a city that maybe isn't one of the most fashionable cities in theworld, which is let's faceit, mostcities.
So, I think that it's important to try to do something niche or just have your finger on the pulse of what's going on in your localarea, in your city and use it as sort of like a communityhub.
Easier said thandone, I am noexpert.
But from what I've seen in the cities where they're verysuccessful, this seems to be thecase.
Yeah.Josh, you say you don't knowfashion, but you know people and I think that is why what you've just said inspired meto,well, I need to share this example of my boutiquestore.
It's very small and now it's only maybe a quarter of the size of this room we are in rightnow.
So, it'stiny.But, youknow, with a superb eye for fashion and truly know what your customers want and know their size and preference and taste reallywell.
They're still room for building a business and my boutique fashion store is run by one lady and she's employed otherpeople, but it's just never worked because we only trust her eye and during COVID when we couldn't go to thestore, she could sell stuff on WeChat and because she knows your size and knows your preference and I think being able to really be in sync with your customers that way and provide them with your eclectictaste, there's still the possibility of building a small business which my boutique store owner does that and as she supports her family that way for more than adecade.
So, there's a tiny success story of a tiny boutique store that thrives thisway.
That brings us to the end of today's roundtable.
Thank you so much Dingheng and Josh Cotterall for joining thediscussion.
I'm heryoung. You can find us on Apple Podcasts at Round TableChina.
