Welcome to another episode of Goldman Sachs Exchange's Great Investors.
I'm Alison Mass, Chairman of Investment Banking in Goldman Sachs' Global Banking and Markets Group and your host for this episode.
Today, I'm very excited to be sitting down with Alan Waxman.
Alan is the co-founding partner, chief executive officer and co-chief investment officer at Sixth Street, a multi-strat private capital investing firm with over 115 billion in assets under management.
Founded in 2009, Sixth Street focuses on identifying the best relative risk reward across asset classes, industries and geographies.
The firm works as one team and partners with leading founders, management teams and companies to deliver creative and flexible long-term capital solutions.
Before that he was a partner here at Goldman Sachs, becoming a partner at age 31, and he led what was then called our America's Special Situations Group.
I'm excited to talk to Alan about his incredible career path, the opportunities for investors today and how the investment management business could change in the years ahead.
So, Alan, welcome to Great Investors.
Thank you for having me.
It's going to be fun.
I'm excited.
So good.
So I want to start by talking about your path into finance to begin with, before we even get to Goldman Sachs.
What interested you in coming into the finance industry?
The path for me to finance was not I was an international relations major in college.
And I graduated college with, I didn't have a job.
So I had 35 interviews, four of which, by the way, were different groups at Goldman Sachs didn't get called back once and that was our loss.
Yeah, it's all good and you know, built built some resilience.
But i ended up getting a job at a long bond manager called fisher, francis trees and watson as a client service analyst And really what that was.
The jobs would do stuff helping clients, but really what it was.
I was in the mailroom punching books.
So that wasn't that cool because all my friends were out, who all had jobs by the way before they graduated, and they were out looking, doing cool things, visiting companies, worrying about companies.
So I started studying for the CFA just to learn some basic finance principles and corporate finance.
And then I was coming on an airplane back from Texas and I met a former Goldman Sachs partner, Jody Lanassa, who was sitting next to me.
And we started talking and rapping and I started asking lots of questions and we built a relationship.
And he basically got me an interview at.
You know, I think it was one of the most exciting groups to come into in Goldman Sachs over the last 25 years, which was the predecessor to the special situations group.
But it was not a linear path.
It's just amazing how so many of these connections are just fortuitous.
You happen to be sitting next to him on an airplane.
So at that time, what was the mandate of the special situations group and how did that influence the type of opportunities that you pursued back then?
I think Goldman figured out very early that you know, starting really in 2001 2002, that that piece of change in the world was accelerating.
You obviously started with the internet, then it went to social media, then AI.
So the mandate was basically complete flexibility, but you couldn't lose money.
So we invested in real estate assets, infrastructure assets.
Direct lending, private equity.
We started a company from scratch which ended up being one of the second largest wind companies ever sold at that time.
So it was complete flexibility, but all with the principle of, again, diversified portfolio, yield.
We like to have a little bit of yield and we wanted that convexity.
And again, we needed to protect capital.
So you became a partner at Goldman in 2006 at the age of 31.
You were a great firm leader throughout the financial crisis.
So what did that period teach you about how capital behaves under stress?
And how did that shape your approach to risk return today?
The GFC had a lot of learnings.
It was about avoiding fiefdoms and silos.
Number one, number two is avoiding tunnel investing.
And I'll talk about what that is.
And number three is mismatched assets and liabilities.
So the first warning is, and this is something we learned at Goldman back in 2001, 2002.
But when you look at the people that lost a lot of money and made a lot of mistakes is they were in organizations where people weren't speaking to each other.
They weren't sharing ideas.
They weren't comparing relative risk units and return units.
There was just no collaboration.
And when things are going well, it's all good.
And you don't see the importance of teamwork and avoiding fiefdoms and silos.
But in GFC you saw a number of firms break down because people didn't talk to each other for whatever reason.
The second thing is tunnel investing.
And we saw this, and this is what really allowed us to navigate the GFC.
Because we're a multi-strategy private capital investing group.
We saw what was happening in housing.
It was just getting crazy, 105% loan-to-value loans.
The appraisals were... completely elevated.
There was clearly a ticking time bomb happening over there, particularly on the housing side.
And that allowed us to really manage risk and be very selective in what we did leading up to that.
We started seeing that And about October 2006.
There's a lot of stuff we missed because they obviously went on further.
But again, the whole idea of the tunnel, invest if you don't have the capabilities like we did, like we do at Sixth Street, where you can see a bunch of different ecosystems really understand what's happening.
It's really hard.
And you just keep doing things without recognition what's right in front of you if you were one of these ecosystems?
And then the last thing and there's also something that I learned from David Vineyard is he always talked about early in my career.
Crises never happen because of credit issues.
They happen because of liquidity issues.
And really what he's talking about is mismatched assets and liabilities.
And the thing with mismatched assets and liabilities, which there are a lot.
During the GFC you had hedge funds.
You know, You know investing long, borrowing short didn't work.
You obviously had a number of banks doing that.
But the thing about mismatched assets and liabilities, there's a pattern across all these crises.
But what happens is human beings.
They really remember when the crisis happens and right after it.
Then they kind of remember, then they don't remember, then they completely forget and then they keep mismatching assets and liabilities.
And that's generally.
You never know what ecosystem the mismatched assets and liabilities are going to be, but that's where the crisis is going to be.
I think they're just lessons of being a great investor, not only within your partner group, but also having your whole firm understand that.
That's why we talk about a lot of these lessons from 0102
GFC, obviously COVID.
There are a lot of lessons, but that's a pretty well patterned sort of recognition of how to navigate and also how to early identify where the next crisis might be.
There are a lot of lessons out of that financial crisis.
I remember our senior leadership at the time saying if we didn't have a culture of escalating things and elevation, who knows what could have happened to our firm.
I remember when I first joined Goldman Sachs and Hank Paulson, we went to this young leadership thing and he talked about the culture for a long time.
But one of the things he always talked about is you got to elevate risk early.
And that's something at Sixth Street, we talk about the same verbiage of that all the time.
It's like, otherwise you're just, you're kind of blind.
So getting your junior people, getting your middle level people to escalate things early bad news travels faster than good news.
And I think that's again.
That's being an investor, being a good risk manager and really just creating that culture.
And you have a culture of rewarding people for doing that, as opposed to you know people feeling they should stick things in the drawer and not tell people.
So I want to talk about Sixth Street.
What was the original vision and how has it evolved over the last 16 years?
We wanted to build a firm from day one that was built for the changing, accelerated piece of change happening in the world.
And it really started back in 2001, 2002 with the internet expansion, number one.
And number two is we wanted to build a firm because we thought this delivered the best outcomes for our investors of no fiefdoms, no silos, no politics, no BS, a bunch of people that are over themselves so that they can be good teammates.
And those are the two things that we set on doing from day one, purpose-built for that.
And really where that came from.
The idea of that and the foundation of that came from warnings I had here at Goldman during the 2001 2002 telecom bus recession back then for all the people that weren't alive for or lived through the 2001 2002 recession.
So I was an analyst, I was covering we covered all kinds of sectors, but I took an interest and all the fiber cables that were being laid underneath the soil in the US, underneath oceans which, by the way, is a lot of the backbone for data transmission today.
Hundreds of thousands of miles were laid.
And I remember very specifically thinking and actually talking about with some of my colleagues that the only thing that is constant is change, and the world is about to get a lot faster.
And by the way, that's only accelerated over the last 25 years.
But that really is one of the most profound learnings I had from Goldman.
That sort of created the idea of Sixth Street.
The second one is I was on, so our group forgot what it was called back at that time.
It changed names like five different times.
But we were on the 27th floor And because we thought at 85 Broad, this is at 85 Broad.
So the old building, 85, I still have, you know, lots of vivid memories.
A lot of my business childhood grew up there about what.
We were on the 27th floor and We had taken a view that just look, the internet was growing, but the capital we didn't think it would earn a return.
We didn't think it would lose as much as it did, but we didn't think it would make a return.
So we didn't do anything on the 27th floor.
And then on the 28th floor, they took a, again, really smart people.
They took a positive view and kind of made a pretty big bet.
And that was a really a microcosm at Goldman back then where there were a lot of fiefdoms and silos.
So there were at the time, going back to pre-telecom bust, there were 10 different, literally principal investing businesses, all investing off the firm's balance sheet.
Wow.
All run by different partners, none of them talking to each other, not sharing ideas, sharing relationships, comparing relative risk-reward, talking about value creation, sharing ideas.
That just didn't exist.
It was set up in a very siloed and fiefdom way.
And fast forward through the telecom bust, guess what?
Some of those groups did really well, and some of them lost a lot of money.
And at the time, people kind of said, this makes no sense.
And let's put all these 10 fiefdoms under one umbrella, from one.
That's going to create better opportunities, better jobs, relationship sharing.
It's just a better way to run a multi-strategy private capital business.
So that's what became the special situations group, right after the telecom bus.
But that learning of just you cannot be a multi-strategy private capital business with fiefdoms and silos.
You cannot be a multi-strategy private capital business if you don't have a culture.
That's just constant.
We call it tennis at 6th Street, constant idea sharing, relationship sharing.
Following back and forth.
Like we've been doing tennis and really since the last it's, all I've done is and that's a key word at Sixth Street is playing tennis with each other.
When we're interviewing people, the way everything happens, our processes, our incentive systems all are designed to be able to do just that, which is to be able to the skill set of comparing relative risk units and return units.
With no fiefdoms or no silos, that's literally what this firm was built for.
And that was true when we founded the firm.
Again, all learned here at Goldman, and that's true today.
So you were talking about your investment strategies, but you're known also for your flexible approach, especially through your TOW strategy.
So can you tell us how you've structured the firm so that you can, quote, go anywhere?
Sure.
So, just for your listeners, Tal is our 30 billion cross-platform investing vehicle that encompasses everything that Sixth Street does.
So across all our 10 asset classes, all our geographies, our 16 sector teams.
Like that is how.
So migrating to the best risk award.
Because our belief is that because the world's changing so fast, going back to what started at 102, you have a theme.
It's got a shelf life of 12 months to 36 months.
You have to constantly migrate, but that is sort of, what TAO is.
It's our $30 billion cross-platform investing vehicle.
And the idea of TAO was really about really three things.
We first started, and we really first started talking about this with our LPs.
They saw that we had a yield, What we had done at Goldman Sachs.
How do we recreate that in an LP ecosystem where the LP ecosystem at the time particularly 2009, and that's changed a lot was very siloed itself?
So you had your private equity team, you had your real estate team, you had your infrastructure team.
And in a lot of cases, they weren't really talking to each other.
So that was kind of the first thing.
How do we synthetically recreate the balance sheet that we had at Goldman with the flexibility we had at Goldman?
The second thing is that we studied when we were thinking about writing the business plan.
We studied the idea that a lot of GPs the reason why they had faltered is because they keep raising larger and larger funds irrespective of the opportunity set.
Because they can.
Because they can.
And by the way, it's a great point.
First time I met him.
First time I met him he said just because you can raise capital, doesn't mean you should.
If you want to be an investor first firm.
So that was the thing is that we wanted to set an architecture up where we didn't have that pressure.
We didn't want to feel that pressure to invest and want to feel that pressure to raise bigger and bigger funds.
But, and this gets to the third thing we're trying to solve.
We'd still wanted to be able to do billion dollar investments.
$3 billion deals and consistently underwrite those across our asset classes.
But if you have a 3 billion fund because that's the right size opportunity for your growth business, you're not going to put a billion dollar check in that.
So having Tal on top of all of our strategy funds, that enables an investor first architecture.
How does that work from an LP perspective?
Look, the LPs that invest with us.
They have the worldview that we have, which is and again, I'm just going to come back to it again because I think it's something our industry does not fully appreciate, which is the pace of change in the world is accelerating.
So our whole firm was basically built for that, and i think the lps that have invested with intel and, by the way, our whole firm, because all of our strategy funds, they're incredibly flexible man, it's like our real estate business the most and, by the way, i think this is one of the things that got the real estate ecosystem in trouble.
Real estate's very silent.
They have a multi-family fund or they have a hospitality fund, or they have this fund or that fund.
Our real estate, complete flexibility.
We can do anything.
We'll buy assets.
We'll lend you money.
We'll do pref.
We'll do joint ventures.
Single assets.
Complete flexibility.
Because that's where we think the alpha is.
So I think the world is sort of headed that direction.
But our LPs.
The ones that invest with us, they have that same worldview.
Literally one of our first meetings when I go back.
You got to remember when we came out of Goldman, where we had complete flexibility and you go to an LP system that's very siloed, and I'm explaining our strategy, they literally looked at us like we had three heads.
Like literally we had a hard time.
An LP who had only done private equity or only done it from.
Because they'd say you don't fit in one of our baskets.
You don't fit.
So we had a choice to basically stay true to who we are as investors, which is this multi-strategy private capital, complete flexibility, migrating to the best risk word, thinking about the skillset of unitizing risk units and return units everything we had learned at Goldman Sachs or take the easy road and just raise one of these very narrow strategy, what we call tunnel funds.
And what we said, we made a decision.
We're going to stick to who we are.
And I literally used to say to people I said listen, because that was the question.
Every meeting we went to which we had a really hard time raising money in the beginning.
Every man went to, well, how do you do that?
And when I said, I said, listen, if you don't think we can do this, you should not invest with us.
Now that doesn't happen anymore.
Occasionally when there's like a new LP, I'll get that question.
I tell them the same thing.
Let's say, if you don't think we can do this, because this is all we know.
This is how we built.
Literally the purpose of our firm is to be able to do this.
If you don't think we can do this, you should not invest with us.
But all of our investors now, we have obviously a lot of LPs today.
They've all bought into this worldview.
And I think the industry itself is actually moving in that direction.
I think the days of...
You know the big personality or the smartest person in the room, or you can operate in tunnel funds or not have a lot of capability.
I think those days are given the pace of change in the world.
It's going to be really hard to navigate.
You know, you look at direct lending, direct lending.
Everyone said this is going to be the golden era. in 2022.
Really smart people.
But the golden era lasted 14 months.
What's the takeaway?
The takeaway is I think there's an underestimation of how quickly the pace of change in the world is.
And there's other examples for that.
So anyways, the LPs that invest with us, they share that worldview.
And I think there's an increasing amount of them that are coming to this view, because they're seeing it, they're feeling it, but that's how they feel about it.
So, with respect to the strategy, the Tao strategy, do you have a favorite investment or an example that epitomizes that approach?
Something you were able to do that you would not have been able to do without it?
There's not one investment, but I'd say there's a type of investment that's my favorite.
And the type of investment that is my favorite is when we're bringing 50 60 people across the firm different sectors, different asset classes.
And they're all working together.
So, early on in Sixth Street, one of the first things we did is we bought a portfolio from Lloyd's Bank 38 companies.
It had some debt.
It had private equity.
It had real estate.
Literally over multiple weekends, like 50 people all working together.
Credit Suisse, we bought a portfolio from Credit Suisse, about 200 positions.
A big principle of that thing is over a billion dollar portfolio.
Again, that one, because there's more positions, we had literally like 75 people working weekends.
We're all working together, sharing ideas, comparing relative risk units and return units, constantly doing it.
Love that.
Airbnb.
We had a team and US, Europe and Asia all working 24-7, literally around the clock, just handing over stuff to meet the timeframe for what the company needed.
And most recently, Edge Connects.
We had our power team, our data comps team and our real estate team, our infrastructure team, all working together.
Again.
So it's more of a type of deal than a favorite deal, but it's like when you see the true power of the firm and how our culture works in practice.
Those are the types of deals that get me most excited.
So looking across the marketplace, where are you seeing the most compelling opportunities right now?
I would say real estate and AI.
I'd say the most compelling opportunities, but also represent real risk.
I think just in general in real estate the whole, because of the vintages that got done between 2019 and 22, they're sort of stuck.
The recapitalization that needs to take place in the whole real estate ecosystem is massive.
Specifically look affordable housing.
I think this is a risk to society economy, political environment.
But affordable housing it's the biggest supply demand dislocation out there.
There's 7 million unit shortage of affordable housing units.
49% of the renters are cost burdened, so they're stressed.
And it's a real problem.
I think we can all agree everyone should be able to afford a house without being stressed with families.
And that's just too big a number for the number, just how big the housing market is.
So I think that's a real opportunity in affordable housing.
But there's others across the whole ecosystem.
But again, I think you got to have a clean portfolio, which fortunately we do, because we didn't do anything from 2019 to 2022.
We did about 10% of what we usually do in our real estate investing activity.
Because, again this goes to the power of sharing ideas and comparing relative risk units and returns is that the real estate from 19 to 2022?
It just didn't make sense, which is why we didn't do a lot.
I think our average investing was like less than $250 million.
And we typically invest like two and a half to $3 billion.
So look, I think that's a risk, but also a real opportunity.
AI.
I think there's.
We love change in the amount of dispersion that's going to happen in AI.
Just good business models, not good business models across every sector.
Like we like that because it gets down to really the skill set of again bottoms up fundamental analysis, but also the skill set of comparing across a bunch of different ecosystems.
I think those two are, I think those are very issuing opportunities.
Yep, I agree.
So I want to talk about investing in sports, because you've been ahead of the curve in investing in sports.
For instance, you did one of the first NBA deals with the Spurs in 2021.
And you forged partnerships with both FC Barcelona and Real Madrid in 2022.
So what drove that focus and how has the opportunity set evolved?
Look, sports was always on our thematic radar.
Because sports teams, sports leagues good market position.
I think technologically, just the local to global, the fact that sports bring people together.
So it's always been our thematic radar, but it's never been actionable.
So it's never made it to our top 15 to 25 themes.
And when people don't show up.
That obviously had a big impact because of what was happening in COVID.
So that really started to open the door that there might be a change to allow for institutional investors to invest, which pre-COVID as an institutional investor, it wasn't really available.
So it wasn't really actionable.
And look, we didn't know.
We thought it would happen.
We didn't know.
And then all of a sudden, we started to hear that the NBA other leagues around the world and they were open to more flexible capital.
That's when we started to get focused and it sort of went up our thematic priority list.
And you know, obviously you mentioned the San Antonio Spurs literally which we've had a thesis on the San Antonio Spurs for a long time because Sixth Street, the original cultural foundation, a lot of the inspiration was from the San Antonio Spurs.
If you go to our first sets of all sites, we have a lot of quotes of Coach Popovich and things the Spurs say that just were real cultural inspiration about teamwork.
So that was always on our radar for that.
But also just because we had a view that San Antonio could be.
It's considered a mid-market team, but we thought because San Antonio and Austin were coming together, it could become a major market team over time.
So again, but it wasn't actionable.
It literally wasn't actionable.
And then all of a sudden COVID happened.
NBA changed the rules.
And, you know, that's when we cold call the Spurs, got in dialogue with them.
And that was one of the first NBA deals that were done.
The whole sports ecosystem, we were there early.
Now there's, I think, a lot more entrance.
I mean, it's every day I wake up and there's a new, new person raising a sports fund and there's a lot of people interested in sports.
Firms dedicated to sports.
It wasn't like that when we first started.
I think the way we're positioned, where we are trying to be the partner of choice for the best global sports brands in the world, and when you look at you mentioned FC Barcelona, Real Madrid We're partners with the Dallas Cowboys, New York Yankees, San Francisco Giants, San Antonio Spurs BSC, Boston Celtics, which is our most recent example.
We're positioned in a way where because we've had a thesis on not just sports but the best global brands in sports, because we think these are consumer opportunities, like our lens, that are local to global, enabled by technology.
That's kind of the way we position ourselves.
So we feel like we're in a pretty good position despite the fact a lot of people are coming in.
And then again going to very similar, like real estate.
The way we approach the real estate space was with complete flexibility, because that's how we think you keep loss rates low but also find the best opportunities.
That same philosophy we have, by the way, not just in sports and real estate, across everything we do, but in our sports space, every deal we've done in sports is different.
FC Barcelona, Meteorites, Real Madrid, Stadco, Bay FC, we control the team.
Boston Celtics, San Antonio Spurs, minority equity.
So again, everything's a little bit different.
The way we approach things, not only in sports, is that when we approach sports, a situation or a company, we're not going in there with a hammer.
Like we're trying to buy this or try to do this.
We go in there with a whiteboard and say, Hey, what are you trying to solve?
Let's get on the whiteboard.
Let's go through it.
So it's a very collaborative, like right brain process with, founders, CEOs, or team presidents.
And that's kind of the way we think about it in sports.
So look, I think the bottom line is the sports space continues to evolve and there are more entrants, but there's still.
The ecosystem just continues to grow.
And again, the one thing we learned during COVID is the value of live experiences.
And, by the way, if you want, one way to play AI is live experiences, because I can tell you with my kids, anyone else's kids, they're on the phone.
They value live experience so much more than we did when we were a kid, because it's a place of like to get off their screens and off their phones, stop picking up their phone 27000 times during the day, and they value them.
It's one of my favorite things to do with my son and my family is go to musical concerts, because I think the value of that is worth so much more than it was when we grew up.
You've said that culture is a key ingredient to your success.
How do you define culture at Sixth Street and what does it look like in practice?
Culture is not a key ingredient.
It is the ingredient.
Culture is everything.
And, by the way, if you were to say what's the biggest antidote to this world we're living in the pace of change, accelerating.
The biggest antidote is culture teamwork, working together, because if you're not talking to each other, sharing relationships, sharing ideas, you're not going to be able to recognize a change and adapt to it and be dynamic for it.
So by far and away, like, it's everything.
The way we define it is first thing is I think sometimes people just throw around the world culture.
It's like an abstract thing.
Culture is not an abstract thing for us.
Culture is in the reason why our culture exists. is to be great investors.
And our belief is that you cannot be a multi-strategy private capital investing firm if you don't have a strong culture, because otherwise you have fiefdoms and silos.
So it is literally, our culture is key to our investing philosophy.
And that's why we were so intentional about it from day one.
When we define culture, It's in, by the way, you could talk to anyone at Sixth Street and they'll tell you the same thing.
It's one team, no fiefdoms, no silos, people that are over themselves.
Like, if you have an ego and you're not over yourself, you're not going to be able to be a team player.
It's people that celebrate each other's successes.
It's people that when there's problems, they don't point the fingers at each other.
It's like you run to problems together.
We call that. face the tiger.
So culture is all those things.
And it's also about when counter-cultural things happen in your firm.
You don't let them sit, you address them head on.
Culture is everything.
And all those things and again, it's just Our view is, and it's been from day one is that that's what allows us to be a multi-strategy private capital investing firm delivering for our LPs.
And that's why we talk about it until we're tired.
Have you made mistakes hiring people, bringing people in?
And how have you dealt with that?
I would say definitely have made mistakes.
I'd say early on we made more mistakes because we're trying, you know, new firm, our cultural wasn't set, but it's what you do about it when you make a mistake.
And what we do about it.
And this is anyone, no matter.
You're the most profitable person at the firm, the best investor at the firm.
Like, if you're not on sort of the team page, the one team page, the get over yourself page, you're not going to last very long at six straight.
And it probably sends a very positive signal to the rest of the people at Sixth Street.
Again, it creates a certain type of person that wants to work here.
And again like, if you're a me me, I person, or you have to be the superhero, or you have to go into a room and show everyone else where you are.
Great.
You're just.
Not a fit for us, but you could do great somewhere else.
But that's at Sixth Street.
That's not going to work.
That's great.
All right.
So we like to end these sessions with a lightning round.
So we're going to run through a couple of questions.
Just get a quick answer.
OK, so what was your first investment you ever made?
Goldman Sachs, I think 1999, buying a bunch of radio and TV loans out of a failed bank called Amoresco in Dallas Texas, where I met my friend and current partner at Six Street, Stephen Pless, who was the best developer.
Great developer of talent.
Therefore, a great first investment, regardless of how it did.
It did pretty well.
Good.
What do you think your personal greatest strength is as an investor?
It's something I learned from reading one of my favorite books, 13 Days, JFK.
It's one of my favorite books in college and something I saw, David Vineyard, our friend practice, which is the ability to watch very smart people debate a certain issue, a certain topic, with conflicting opinions, sometimes with emotion, and watching that whole process play that skillset.
I think that to create the best judgments on a systematic basis, I think that's.
That's something I've learned from that book and I learned from David Benyer.
Yeah, that's a superpower.
So what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Easy.
Face the tiger from my dad, which is...
Life is hard.
You're going to face hard things.
It's how you do when you face those hard things that will define you.
That's awesome.
So where do you spend your time out of the office?
It sounds like you're a big sports fan.
Sports fields with my kids, dance recitals, and as much time surfing as I can possibly do.
I didn't know you were a surfer.
That's a fun fact.
And then finally, what are you most excited about in the world right now?
Definitely AI, but it's also the thing I'm most scared about.
Okay.
So Alan, thank you so much for joining me today.
Thank you for having me.
So thank you all for listening to this episode of Goldman Sachs Exchange's Great Investors, which was recorded on September 3rd 2025.
I'm Alison Mass.
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