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If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit.
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Hey everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial.
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Crystal, thanks for joining us today.
I am so excited to be here, Kwame.
Yes, and we are excited to have you, my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Absolutely. Well, I tell people I do two things.
I do insurance, which is the unsexy part of what I do, unless you do it, it can be actually sexy.
And then I help women learn and grow into a career that they truly love that makes them overjoyed and happy and works for their life.
And the reason I started doing that is because I found a way to create a career through corporate work, through working at a law firm, to transitioning to insurance, to becoming an investor, an entrepreneur, and figured out how to make that work for my life and what I wanted and the vision that I had
for myself and really just exponentially bring happiness to my life.
And I am so big on wanting to help women do that as well and owning their worth and getting maximum value while doing that.
I love that. And also make sure you let the listeners know about your new course that's coming out now too.
Yeah. So I have been working on for the last three months, a course called SalaryWise, which will have the six part framework I called EarnIt to help women figure out where they're going wrong and how to improve their ability to promote themselves because I always say humble doesn't pay the bills, how
to get the market data that they need to put together the best package for themselves and how to change their mindset to really hone in on what is unique and amazing and all the skills they've cultivated to go in and get the big ask, whether it's at their same company or whether it's going out and making
a huge quantum leap to a new position because I just think that that is incumbent upon us that women really struggle with what is our value and how do we define it and how do we talk about that?
And once we can do that and once we collectively are actually doing that, I think we'll see that pay gap, you know, start closing because the data shows us on me over the last 30 years that the pay gap has not significantly changed.
It's not a very big gap for women under the age of 30, but as you get older, the pay crap actually increases.
And what I find fascinating about that and fascinating in a negative way is that our biggest earning years, and I say us humans, people in general in America, the biggest earning years are in your forties and fifties.
If the pay gap is actually getting larger at those times, women are missing out on millions and millions and millions of dollars and we've got to find a way to change that.
We have to find a way to dig deep.
And even if we aren't taught in our culture to talk about money or advocate for ourselves, we have to break out of that cycle because our lives and our retirement and our joy and life satisfaction are really depending on it.
I agree. And that's why the work that you do is so important.
And so I'm excited about the course and listeners, of course, we have a link to the course in the description.
So if you're interested, make sure you check out that that link so you can learn how to make this happen for you.
Because I think for me, one of the things that's so empowering about the way that you are approaching this is that you're giving people the tools, the mindset and the skill set that's necessary in order to create the life of our dreams.
But we have to understand how to actually get it done.
And a big part of that is your perspective on value.
And that's going to be our focus for today.
Just this word value.
And there's so many different ways that we can go through this because we have the psychological sense internally.
How are we valuing ourselves?
How do other people value us?
What is value as it relates to negotiation and what we're actually negotiating for?
So I think a fun way to start off this conversation on value is talking about some of the misconceptions that people might have about the term.
And so when you're coaching people and seeing people go through your your programs, what are some thoughts that people have about the concept of value that are a little bit askew?
Yeah, so I will say that the number one thing that I find I've talked to and I work with some men as well, but largely who I'm working with is women.
So a lot of what I'm going to talk about is more women centric.
It doesn't mean it doesn't apply to men.
It's just that my experience is more largely focused on women.
And the number one thing that women find with value is like, what is my inherent value and what value am I creating?
The question around what their value is the number one issue.
And if we don't understand our own value, how can we communicate our value?
How can we raise awareness to our value and how can we show others we should get paid for that value?
And it's a really deep conversation to think about and have and dive into the issue because I believe that it stems from us historically, women historically being caregivers and they're not being a monetary value that you can place upon that.
And then our current culture in America, it's not really one where it supports women that are caregivers.
It doesn't support women that are not that it's anti -supportive, but you just don't see there are commercials for that.
We're not applauding women who decide to stay home.
So if our nature are like basic nature is not valued in our culture, then how do we translate our working value into something that we can talk about and share with other people?
So I think that is where it's really just difficult from the outset for women.
And then we are taught a lot of times, not specifically, this is like a subtle way that we're taught to be quiet and demure and good girls and yes, and light.
So standing up and demanding and asking and saying, I need this, I must have why, those are not things that we are taught to do.
And the third issue kind of culturally is that women, nobody talks about money that much first and foremost.
But secondly, women definitely are not talking about money, the value, what you're doing, the work you're doing, what value it has, whether it's in the confines of your job, the greater environment, your town, whatever it may be, we're just not talking about those things.
So I think the question is, how do I find the value?
How do I know what my value is?
It's not really, it's a big topic.
It's not really something that's to the side or on the periphery of what people are experiencing.
It is really front and center to what women are struggling with.
It's just how do I figure out what my own value is and then how do I communicate it to other people?
Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because it's really, really challenging and we have to fully appreciate this challenge as well, because if we are negotiating value, there's a lot of, it's almost like a quid pro quo type of thing.
You give me this, I give you that.
There's some way to ascertain the value that I'm bringing to the table and then we can try to reverse engineer some compensation for that.
But the scenario that you painted, that you brought to the table here is really interesting because the example of being a caregiver, everybody knows that's valuable.
How would we put a price to that?
We'll say, okay, you know, this is priceless.
Okay. That's a nice thing to say, but it makes it very hard to quantify too.
And I can see how that can translate to the workplace as well.
And when it comes to our ability to ascertain our own value and then communicate it to other people, where would you suggest somebody starts when it comes to figuring out how much value you bring to the table?
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Yeah, so the first piece is really the internal value.
And that can be a struggle for people if they haven't.
I was listening to Mel Robbins on a podcast this morning who talks a lot about mental and therapy type solution.
And so in some ways we have to get to that, right?
That's like a first starting point for some people.
Because if you've grown up in a family or your first jobs, your first, your college experiences did not create an inherent value with or a worth within yourself.
That may be the starting point for some people.
And I have worked with some women like that where you, they really had to do some deep work.
They may have also needed to go into some kind of therapy.
But we're not going to focus on that.
I am not definitely not a therapist, but it's understanding that we were born and first and foremost, everybody has a value.
Everybody has an inherent value that is not quantifiable, right?
To your family, to your friends, to your children, to all those around you, you have a huge value.
Find that, tap into that, and you really find that deep inner worth.
When it comes to our true work histories, we have to look at what have we done, what, how have we brought value?
Sometimes those are easy to identify in projects that you've managed, savings that you have accumulated for the company, sales that you have made, deals you have done, acquisitions, divestitures, whatever they may be, they can have easy to identify.
I used to actually joke with this, one of the tax directors that are working on the big construction project and he was negotiating tax advantages with the county and the city.
And I was like, wow, you're a money maker in some ways.
So those are easy to identify ways, but those aren't always the case.
You're a lawyer by background.
I'm a lawyer by background.
Lawyers are a cost to the company.
So how are you identifying places?
Once you start thinking about it, that's the first hurdle.
Then you can start working on identifying places.
What are KPIs that you can work on?
What are you doing so many contracts?
Are you working on so many invoices?
Are you touching a certain number of clients?
Are you making the lives easier of the people that are making money?
What are the things that you are doing that you can do better than somebody else or that is really a skill for you and start just writing it down?
It's not like a journaling exercise, but it's just like, what are the things that you're doing?
And when you start reflecting on that in a strategic and thoughtful and intentional way, it will start coming together for you on what the value that you are providing for your job, for your role, for your company.
And I think once you have a little arsenal, things that you have done and worked for, you will start seeing the value come alive for yourself.
Yeah, I love this. And so two main points here.
Answering the question, how have you brought value to the team, the organization, or whatever it is that you're negotiating with, whatever the entity happens to be, and then identifying how that value translates into KPIs.
I think that's really strong because you're making it concrete at that point.
And one of the things that I've recognized, a pattern that I've started to see is that sometimes it's easier for other people to see the value that you bring because it's almost like we can become blind to our value because we bring it so consistently.
We just assume that everybody does the same thing in the same way.
And so sometimes asking somebody, what value do I bring to the table is a great way to start to get an idea of how other people are seeing your value, which might lead to you increasing your own value, not in an inaccurate way, but with just more objective information that's coming from a different
perspective. Absolutely.
That is if you're really struggling to figure out, what is my value?
What am I doing because you're living it?
Or what I've seen is that some people are challenged in the fact that they see that their job duties are just that.
They're just duties.
They're not really value.
I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
Yes. But did you know that some other people are supposed to be doing those things, and they aren't doing all those things.
So the fact that you are doing your job, maybe you're doing it with a smile, maybe you're doing in a pleasant way that makes people want to talk to you.
Maybe people are bringing ideas or their problems to you because you're an ideation person.
I mean, think about the engagement that you have and the things that you're doing.
And to your point, there is going to be a lot more brought to the table.
And if you really are struggling, talk to some of your closest, either friends or your colleagues that you work with talk to regularly.
I think most people have some friendly people that they're working with.
What do they think are your strengths?
What are they see that you're doing really, really well?
And that might be a good starting point because if people have struggled for a long time to share their strengths and their worth and their value and what they're bringing, they may not see it when they look in the mirror.
And so getting some outside perspectives can be really, really helpful.
Yep. I love it. I love it.
And now let's keep on, let's stick with this theme of value.
Because one of the things that I know you've worked with people on is talking about expanding their perspective of value.
Because when you're, for instance, negotiating salary, sometimes people can't get just fixated on the number, just the salary, just the comp.
And so can you tell us a little bit about the value, I guess the benefit of expanding your perspective of what value actually is in these negotiations?
Yeah, absolutely. So when we're thinking about the value, and we're talking about people negotiating their salary, negotiating the full compensation package, I am quick to say, you are not the value of your salary.
It's important for people to understand they are a separate and distinct person from whatever their salary value is.
However, I do believe that to some degree, what you're being offered shows how the company is valuing you as an employee.
And that's a good indicator for you to understand, are they valuing you in the same way you feel you should be valued?
You want to have some alignment in those values, because if you are not aligned, that's where people start feeling unhappy.
And if you're unhappy with how you're being valued compensation wise, it's going to bleed over to the rest of the work you're doing into your overall happiness and satisfaction.
And that is not going to make for a really great life.
But when we talk specifically about what all you're going to be negotiating when it comes to a compensation package all in, there are a lot of different numbers besides salary.
I mean, salary is obviously the biggest, most important for most of us, because that is going to be what we consider to be like the guaranteed income to yourself.
But depending on what your job is, your bonus structure could be huge.
I've seen people where their bonus structure could be up to three times their salary, or more, you want to think about what are the benefits?
What are your health insurance?
Nowadays, health and wellness is so expensive.
You want to know that you're not going to be losing money.
If the cost structure of the benefits program is not similar to what you have, you could have long term stock incentives, which could make up a huge amount of your retirement or future.
One woman I was working with recently, we were talking about what her work life is going to be going forward.
And she would like it to be 52 to 54.
But her long term compensation in her stocks really vests heavily between 55 and 60.
So how much will you be losing out if you decide to exit working before that time?
So those are the main things, but you also have other things to think about like work remote, what are your working hours?
How much flexibility are there?
So there are multiple areas that you want to think about when it comes to the whole package of what you're negotiating.
And what I usually tell people is you can't focus on every lever, you can pull a couple of levers, but you cannot, when you're going into negotiation, you cannot go in with the expectation that you're going to have something that you're asking for on 10 different points.
That is not realistic or sustainable.
And so what are the most important things that you want to identify and what you want to negotiate on and pick one, two, maybe three, if you're in a really hard to place position.
I love that. I love that because one of the things that people might be experiencing is a little bit of overwhelm because they might say, all right, well, now that I have this more expensive perspective of value, now there's so many options that I can pull on when it comes to these negotiations.
But then at the same time, this should be really empowering and exciting because we're recognizing that there are so many options.
We can play around with this in so many different ways.
And the key is to know really what it is that drives you understand your core values, the things that are important to you.
But at the same time, understanding what's important to the other side and then trying to find opportunities for that interest overlap.
Where are those points of synergy where I'm bringing value, you're bringing value and we create value together.
That means more value for both of us.
Absolutely. And you can do that whether you're looking for a new job or if you're negotiating a promotion or just a straight raise in your current position.
And some of the compensation capabilities may not be presented to you.
So you have to ask.
And that's another thing that I think women aren't always aware of asking for, does this position offer any kind of bigger bonus potential?
Does it have the potential to get stock options?
And if you don't ask, you're not going to get, just like if you don't ask for that raise, there's a hundred percent likelihood that you're not going to get it because you did not ask.
So if they're not presented to you, you may want to ask to see the full picture.
And then remember, this is the most difficult thing for people when they're going in there and you're asking for something, you start conjuring up the feelings of the fear of rejection, the fear of judgment, the fear of failure that if I'm asking for something, if I'm putting myself out there in the way
that I may lose the opportunity or that it's going to be a resounding no, which feels really bad to some people.
And you have to remember that you want to know upfront, where does the value alignment come in?
If you can't get to a meeting of the minds, it's not going to be the long -term place for you anyway, because your feel your value is X, they see it as Y.
Don't lower your standards to fit to somebody else's box.
We have to stick with that.
I'm not saying that, you know, Kwame, sometimes there are occasions where somebody just needs a job and you've got to accept something that may be less than you think you're worth.
There is a time and place for that.
You have to be aware of if you're in one of those situations, but if you're not, if you have a good job, if you're fine where you're at and you're just looking to make a big move, knowing up front that they're not going to bring you to the level that you want.
It may not be the long -term play, right?
You're moving somewhere so that you can find better alignment.
And it's hard for people to understand until you start thinking about it, until you've experienced it.
I have been there. I can assure you this is a real thing.
80 % of the problems that people feel with their job are compounded if they are being paid what they feel they are worth.
They may not have thought about it.
They may not have identified.
They may not have pulled that number up.
They may not have asked for it or negotiated it.
But somewhere inside, they're feeling like, I am worth more.
They're not offering me more.
And that is bleeding over into everything that they're touching.
Once you start doing the work to get to where you're valued, the way you value yourself, you're just going to have so much more happiness and satisfaction in your job.
And so if it takes you three more months to find the right job, to negotiate the right amount, it always behooves you to wait.
I love it. Oh, that is powerful.
I feel like that last point could be an episode by itself.
This is really, really important.
And before we go, I just kind of want to put a bow on this too.
I want to focus a bit on the point of asking because it seems so obvious, but consistently we see in studies that this is one of the biggest barriers that people have when it comes to having these tough conversations.
And so a lot of times people might just say, well, people are afraid of asking.
So all they need to do is ask, okay, well, yes.
But there's something that's holding people back from doing that.
So with the time we have left, can you talk about some of those mental barriers that might be holding people back from asking for what it is that they deserve?
Yeah. And I'll start by saying to your point, it's a simple answer, right?
You can't get without asking.
It's simple. Just ask.
However, it's simple, but not necessarily easy.
And I always want, I mean, I just really believe that in life, like 90 % of the answers are simple.
They're right in front of us.
It does not mean it's easy, but once we accept and pull in and see that it is simple and we can get on the road to making the adjustments to taking the difficult path, to doing the thing.
And so what I think holds people back is number one, they have a belief that they're worth it, but they don't really, truly deepen their soul, believe that.
So again, it's creating that repetition for ourselves to talk about the things that we've done to promote ourselves, whether it's even just talking to your spouse or your friend, you know, if you don't feel comfortable like going into a group team meeting and saying, I did this, look how amazing I am.
I killed it in this conversation.
I booked five appointments with clients or whatever it is, then, you know, share it with your spouse, share it with a friend, get comfortable bragging about yourself.
Okay. If you're not going to pat yourself on the back, who's going to, and when people see that you are happy and excited about what you're doing, they're going to take that and they're going to share it around the organization and that filters up to the higher levels.
And so when you're valuing yourself in the way that you want to be valued and sharing the things that you've done, then it allows other people to celebrate and share with you.
I think that is the biggest thing, pulling people back from asking because they just haven't totally bought in themselves.
And if you don't buy in, how are you getting somebody else to see your value and your worth and go to bat for you?
If it's a budgetary constraint, how are you going to have somebody go to bat for you if you don't truly believe it in your heart and soul as well?
So you've got to believe it and you've got to, you know, find a way, do the mental work, put together whatever kind of template of a Bragg book that shows you.
And then you've got to own that and you've got to allow other people to celebrate you too.
The other thing is I really think it's hard for people to accept that they may be told, they may get a no.
And what does that mean?
And that feels really harsh to some people, even though people like me who just go out and ask for what they want.
It's not that I don't have any feelings.
I definitely get my feelings hurt when people tell me no, even now talk about this, sometimes about my husband, we talk about trips and 90 % of the time, the first time I bring up a trip, he's going to say no.
And it's always going to hurt my feelings.
But at the end of the day, I'm going to keep asking because I know it's what I need.
I know it's what he needs.
I know it's what we need to do together.
So I keep asking, but you have to practice that you have to get out there and ask.
And people have this fear of rejection that it just really is hard for some people.
And so the more that you practice asking for something and you get adjusted to that rejection, and then you reshape it, sometimes it's not just a rejection.
What information am I taking away from this?
What have they told me?
Maybe there's something, maybe it's not today.
Maybe it's in six months.
Maybe I need to take some feedback.
What was I missing in sharing with them?
It's all the things that like, when you're talking about a negotiation, all information is good information, right?
I'm taking it in, I'm synthesizing, I'm filtering it through how can I come back to the table later and ask for more.
But I think it's that fear of rejection that really holds people back.
And then to another degree, it's a fear judgment.
I have to see my boss.
I have to see my boss's boss.
What are they going to think about me that I was asking, who do I think I am?
It's these kind of thoughts that people start having in their own minds and talk themselves out of just doing the thing, which is going in there and making the ask.
Don't talk changing your own version of yourself by changing the thoughts that you're having about yourself, because the thoughts that you have becomes actions, it becomes words, and then it becomes feelings that other people have towards you.
You are projecting these things, even if you don't think you are.
Oh, that's good. I love this.
And again, we have to recognize the internal game because they can listen to this podcast and know exactly what it is that they need to say.
But if we don't address what internally is holding us back from putting these tools into action, then we're not going to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done.
So, Crystal, this was great.
Really, really appreciate you coming on the show again.
And before you go, can you please just give the listeners a shout out, let them know about the course and how they can get in touch with you?
Absolutely. It's going to be, it's called salary wise.
It will be launching in the next month or two.
It will be an amazing six part for people that need more.
I do some limited one -on -one coaching with people who really want to take it to the next level, but the course is built out to be super comprehensive, like every single thing you need, plus all the tools.
I'm talking mindset, work, meditations, the full thing.
We've got comparison tools so that you can take an entire job offer and compare it to other job offers.
It's got everything you need.
And if you want in, we also have, I'll be talking about it more on my newsletter.
And then I always talk about this and so much more giving away a ton of content, a ton of tips, and often even have jobs to share with people on LinkedIn.
I am at Crystal Ware with Strategist.
Love this. Crystal, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better.
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I'm glad to have you and I will see you in the next episode.
I'll catch you later.
