Today, I'm providing you with a treat. Today we're going to be talking to my very own father.
Michael Chamberlain, also known as Chamberlain Paintings on Instagram. also known as CP by close friends and family.
It's long overdue for me to talk to my dad because I don't think I would have a podcast without my dad.
It's very similar to what it sounds like when I'm talking to my dad on the phone.
You know, similar topics, similar... opinions, similar ideas, similar hypotheses Moral of the story is, it's long overdue.
And he only has one kid, and it's me. And I am a full-time job.
But he's also... an oil painter. He creates YouTube videos.
He's also a musician. singer, songwriter, musician.
He's one of the most creative people I know.
He's Easily the wisest person I know. And you're going to love him more than you love me and want him to take over the podcast. to be fucking heartbreaking.
Everybody's going to be like, oh my God, Emma, give the podcast to your dad.
And honestly- He deserves it. He's shaking his head off camera.
He's like, I don't fucking want that. So here is...
A conversation with my wonderful, wonderful dad, Michael Chamberlain.
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Things people love. So what do you want to know about me?
My God. I know everything about you, so it's easy for me.
I don't know. What? Yes, I do. I mean, I think in some ways, well, yeah, but yeah, okay.
So not to age you at all, but- No, it's fine.
There's... Not to totally expose you, but a lot has happened in your life thus far.
There's so many nooks and crannies. Like, I feel like I'm always finding out something new about your life in various ways. don't know, just like phases that you've had, et cetera.
What do you think is is the most important for strangers to know about you.
I would have to say, growing up in New Jersey, So living in New Jersey till I was 14 and moving to California, like in the summer after eighth grade.
I do like that I grew up back there. I do think that growing up back East, it makes me appreciate the West Coast more in a way.
Like I'm so... grateful for the weather and the beauty and that sort of thing.
But anyway, but there's a lot I love about the East Coast as well.
So I do feel like that's a big thing. And then I was like, I think another thing even though I'm like I've always been a creative person like I never stood out creatively Like I always took art classes and I always took was interested in stuff like that, but it's not like... I think even though I'm a painter for a living now,
I think most of my teachers, if they were told at the time, Oh yeah, by the way, that kid, he's going to be a professional painter someday.
They'd be like, what? No. There was always like the art star kids in class, the kids who stood out.
Totally. I was never one of those kids.
So I just love to make things and do things creatively, but I don't think I really...
Yeah, necessarily stood out. I went to San Diego State for two years, really enjoyed that, but then left early to play music, moved to San Francisco.
And there I kind of, once I started playing music and playing in bands, Then I started meeting other musicians and that's, and I lived, yeah, and I lived in the city.
Sorry, I'm laughing. Yeah. That's all right.
I'm used to it. I know. Well, you burp more than me.
Do I? Louder and louder. so natural that I don't even notice.
If somebody asked me, I'd be like, I don't think I ever You know, when somebody sneezes and they like make it super loud and you're like, that just didn't need to be that loud.
That's right. You do that with burps. Like, you burp so fucking big.
For theatrics? I must have got that from my mom.
Well it all goes back to grandma then. That's right.
Cause I'm doing it now too. I'm burping with my chest.
You know why it is? You know why? Because when I hang around with you, I drink sparkly water.
That's why. Yes, it's your fault, basically, is what I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, yeah, so... You moved to San Francisco...
To do music. Yep. Why don't you set that scene for everyone?
I moved back into the house that I that I grew up in in Foster City and But my parents were not there.
They both lived in separate places. So I lived in this house.
I was 19. My brother Kevin was 18 and my brother James was like, he was like 15.
We all lived in the house. by ourselves.
And we turned, I turned the garage into a, Like we went and got like insulation and whatever.
My brother, Kevin, you know, Uncle Kevin is a drummer.
I know. I know my uncle Kevin. Do you know uncle Kevin?
Yes, I know Kevin. Kevin was like, He dropped out of school after a year.
We were both back home at the same time.
Frat vibes. Yeah, so I was like, do you want to play drums?
Or I started playing. bass at that point and singing and then we brought in guitar players.
So we were kind of a trio. So we played in San Francisco and recorded songs.
And I played in a couple of other bands after that until I was about 30.
Am I getting ahead of myself? No, because my next question was... did you want this to be your job?
Like when you went into starting this band and you know, you took the risk to leave school?
Were you like, I want to be a musician. I want to... get signed with a label, like, this is what's happening?
Was that the vibe in the beginning? Honestly, these thoughts were happening at college.
I thought, what am I going to do? I could not see myself as being you know, sort of working in an office kind of thing.
And not that there's anything wrong with that.
That just wasn't like, I felt like, I've always been a creative person.
I've always loved music. It would be so ideal if I could actually make a living With music.
And at that point, the only way to do it was to be like a rock star or whatever.
Mm hmm. And the channels to do that, like the ways to do that at that point were pretty limited.
And it was basically how to get a record deal.
I mean, spoiler alert. You didn't get the record deal.
No, no. But why? But no, no, no. Yeah. It's either...
You didn't want a record deal. or nobody gave you a record deal.
Those are two very different sort of outcomes.
So I'm curious what happened so the first thing that happened was like that did turn me off was that somebody in the industry came and saw us and was like, really like these songs and like you're singing, but like,
Would you consider adding another guitar? or doing whatever and I was sort of really resistant to having any kind of pressure to change in any kind of way.
And they were actually cool. I said, you know, I...
I want to work on it with the guys that I'm working with.
Cause being that Kevin's my brother and I was like, I just, we want to work on this.
And they were like, okay, well, they were going to be patient.
But that kind of thing where I started thinking... you know, having to make changes or putting pressure on us to change.
And I felt that. And I, we did, we, cause we, Then in the practices, we started trying to conform to what it was, which I don't even remember what the things they were talking about then were, but it already started to creep in and And then that caused like, you know, pressure or it changed the vibe of the band too.
Yeah, and I wasn't experienced enough not to let that happen because I'd, you know...
But it was all a great experience. But again, and then part of that was, and then I started playing in other bands and and with older guys that had actually done touring and had record deals and that sort of thing.
And, hearing the stories it didn't sound glamorous at all so then so at the age of 30 i i pretty much stop playing in rock bands, you know, or like But I still kept playing.
Yeah. For you, it sounds like music... Before you left college and you started the band with my uncle Kevin and some other dudes.
Right. Before that point, music was a hobby for you.
You just enjoyed it. And then it was like, okay, wait, maybe this is my job.
And then it went back to just being a hobby again.
Yeah, but well, you know, the other thing too is I think that when you're 19 years old and you're looking at like I'm gonna have to support myself.
I gotta... I think that there was so much... Like, I was so...
I was really afraid. I think it's normal.
I think about that now. I thought about how am I going to make a living?
There was no sort of business thing that attracted me.
It's a terrifying time. Yeah, and I just thought, this is it.
I got to go for this because this is something I love and whatever.
And in a way... And that's something that I, as a painter now, I'm going to paint for a living and I have for 10 years now.
It's something I've had to kind of wrestle with there as well.
When you do something that you love creatively But then you start doing it for a living.
You have to make sure that the job portion of it doesn't take over and kill the joy.
And that's something that is a delicate balance to do that.
I feel like in some ways when I had my bills paid by something else like i was working for dhl as a courier in san francisco and And even though I didn't make a ton of money, I didn't make that much, but I was frugal.
And at least all my basics were covered.
I just felt like I can just be creative for fun.
And it's much more enjoyable not to have that pressure to sell it.
And so I do think that, you know, If the money comes as a result of just you doing what you naturally do, then that's a gift and that's great.
But I think with a lot of creative kids and a lot of creative people, I mean, the reason you start is not to become famous.
I mean, maybe with some kids. But I think most of them...
Like most of the kids I know are most of the people now that are either young people that I paint with or older people or whatever.
It's kind of all the same. They started out as a way to...
It just calmed them down or it made them... It just was their sort of... you know, like their happy place or it gave them joy to make things and be creative.
And I think That is where it started. So...
I think that that's something that I had to sort out as well.
And so for me to be creative, It was like, I can't give that up.
I need to have that as my, that's what makes me happy.
And that's more important than anything.
And so, yeah, so to have another income... that takes some of that pressure off is really, allows you to do that.
And so I would recommend that. Most people expect someone who... goes into art as a profession to be like a child prodigy.
That's definitely not your situation. So how long had you been painting before you were like, well, maybe...
Maybe this is my job now because this is kind of my only option.
Yeah, yeah. So I started painting in 2003
And so I remember it was easy. Even before I painted, I was 38 years old.
I didn't have any art experience at all except for what I had like say in school, just that I would take art classes because I liked it.
So I started painting at the age of 38, 2003.
And then I was like, okay, I'm not ready.
And so I worked for another, I think it was six years.
Maybe more than that. I think it was like 2013 when I quit my quit everything and just was painting.
Well, you know the underlying theme, I feel like, of your career is... and this is so rare, is that Every career move you've made has been about your happiness and your wellbeing.
You've never made... A career choice. based on money, which is interesting.
I feel like we're all so programmed to be like, We just need to make as much of it as fucking possible.
And you are the complete opposite. you find your fulfillment so genuinely in creative endeavors and living a good life that... the way that you make money is so secondary.
And that's just such a rare thing point of view well I think that You know, I did think about that a lot.
When I left school, I read a lot. Because I was not a good student.
But a lot of the books I read, I don't know, there was a lot of philosophy in there about like, making life choices and things like that.
And I think the thing that I really... wanted was I valued freedom more than It seems like there's a trade-off.
It's like, okay, you can... have a lot of money or now that it's possible that both like a lot of money and freedom and obviously having money, can make you free.
But if you're in my case, I just felt like, If I'm frugal and careful, then I'm getting fulfilled by these up by the freedom and the things that I have, like, like, like uh and i did a lot of stuff like you i don't know if you remember when you're little like i taught sailing for seven years you know and There was a little money there, but not much.
But what an experience. I learned so much through that whole thing.
And then obviously music and painting and all these things and all the social interactions and friends that are associated with those things just made... It made it so that life was... satisfying and rich in that regard.
And so that's why it's like, I know you probably remember, um, it was kind of a fun challenge.
Like when you were little to like, it's like let's go on a cafe crawl okay Today's budget, three bucks.
Yeah, we would go to San Francisco and he'd be like, okay, so picture this.
No, it was under five. Okay, yeah, under five.
You'd be like, we're going to go have a total day.
Yeah. It's going to be totally fun. Right.
But we're not... but we're spending $5, so when we go to the cafe, we're gonna say, okay, Can we just grab a bottle of water?
Or can we just have a glass of water? Because you weren't even drinking coffee.
I know, so I'd like get a glass of water.
Like you'd get like a black coffee and I'd get like a glass of water and we'd be like, yes!
I know, I know, I know. But we had fun and it was totally great.
And those habits still... they still kind of exist.
You know, most everything I do doesn't cost very much. it is a trade-off and it's a choice you have to make, you know, like, yeah.
I mean, it's, It is. And it's not for everyone.
No, it's not. Well, I think... I mean, there's a dark side to it too.
Like, I mean, I'm going to be honest about it.
There's been, there were several times There were several times in the process where I thought, you know, like... In the process of what?
Well, of like... this journey as being a professional painter.
There were times where I thought, where I'd run out of money or come really close.
See, my philosophy with money was always like, If I have a buffer in my account, I don't even look at my account.
But then there's this gut feeling like, I think I need to look.
And then I'd be like, oh, how bad is it?
And one time I looked in there It was bad.
It was really bad. What was it? It was like $1.67.
And this was not that long ago. And I was like, what are you doing?
What are you doing? I didn't sleep like the whole night.
I was just like, in a panic. And I thought, what am I going to do?
And that's when I, how old was I? 15, 14.
I don't know. 13th? You were literally already a YouTuber.
It was not that long ago. Oh. Do you remember?
What? Actually, do you remember when you came up?
There's a video where you come up surprising my dad on his birthday.
Child, I was broke, okay? I knew this. Did you?
Yes. No. Cause you came up and you were like, so what I did was so today, I mean, maybe some of the people have seen your video, the video.
So here's what happened. So like the days before that, I was like, what am I going to do?
And then I thought I'll throw my own show and I'll like make postcards.
Oh, your own art show. show. My own art show.
So I asked Grammy Pat, I was like, can I...
Can I use your house? Like I'm going to put hors d'oeuvres and I'm going to send out invites and invite people.
I've got to sell some paintings or whatever.
And Grandpa Bob was really helpful. He like took a stack of the postcards.
You know, he's like, oh, I'll hand them out.
And he did, he handed out cards and he's like, You know, he's so social and everything.
Talks to everybody. And I sold like... $4,000 worth of paintings and I'm like, I'm back in the game.
He's back. Those times where I was like against the wall, kind of like that were so good for me. but arguably self-inflicted.
It's fascinating because, you know, It's like you could have gone and gotten another job.
You know what I mean? But you... No. Like you hit $1 and you said, Instead of saying, like, I need to go get another job that's more stable because all creative industries are completely... completely unstable and you never know what next month is going to look like.
It's just fascinating that you through another show instead of going and getting another job.
Would you consider that behavior reckless or would you consider that Intuitive?
What is that? I mean, I guess it's entrepreneurial maybe.
Because it really is. That's true. And I think, too, if you're going to be successful as a creative person, You have to be as creative about how you make your money as you are with your art.
And that's where YouTube came in. That's why I was interested in YouTube, obviously.
You've been making YouTube videos since YouTube came out, but it was different because you were making music.
Yeah, but it wasn't until we started talking right before you started your channel, but I was thinking the same thing.
I was like, I want to do something with art, but I don't know what.
I had already made a few videos where I just sat and talked to the camera about like mixing colors or something.
I don't remember, but I didn't really have any I didn't know what I wanted to do with it or how that could end up being something that could actually bring in some additional money.
So my intention when I started like a sort of painting related thing.
It was more like marketing for your art.
Yeah, I just didn't even know. I just thought, ah, this seems like... my feeling is if you're a painter or you're a music, if you're a, If nobody knows you exist, you're selling nothing, you know?
So I'm like, all right. I know how to upload things, but what do I want to do?
And that's when... You wanted to. You were thinking about YouTube, and that's why I was, you know... Well, you...
I was sort of thinking about YouTube, but you were like, Emma, you need to do YouTube.
Well, first of all, I already had seen...
Your some your edits, like your fun edits for that you were wearing your I don't know if you my little my little still at your Finstead. it.
I can't explain this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, the bottom line is I saw some of your fun edits that you would do.
And you've talked about this before that you I used to like edit fun videos with my friends and, and, And they were just for myself and for my friends and my dad loved them.
And then you did your vibe video phase. You had your vibe videos.
Oh, I can't wait. But those were good too.
And I was like, damn. My friends and I used to make these.
Videos that would be like slow-mo of us, like... Vaping?
Totally. But the point I wanted to make though is like some of them- They were honestly a vibe every time.
No, but those were like- Those were well done and those were cool, but the ones I liked.
So you had two sort of creative, or you had two sort of video approaches.
One was the vibe video, which was like maybe trying, like it was kind of cool, whatever.
It was totally indie sleeves. It was like trying to be cool and everything.
And also- wearing my Lululemon leggings like trying to be like so fucking like cool and But the thing about those is the edits on those were good.
Like I could see, I was like, wow. Okay.
The timing was good. Yeah. And the music.
And I was like, okay, it's a vibe. These are like vibe videos.
Right. But the other ones that I liked that would just were just you being a goof.
Yeah, like friends goofing around and like zooming in on the funny shit.
Yeah. Yeah. And just like, I just remember one where you guys were in the gymnasium at high school and like oh this is so great and you had like I think you set up We were bowling with chairs.
Yeah, but what did you set up as bowling pins?
Okay, so basically what happened was we put a bunch of chairs.
Set up as bullhouses. Set up as bowling pins.
And then there was this like rolling thing that it was like a... flat like rolling device that they were using to like transport something into the gymnasium and so then we basically we would take turns sitting on that rolling device and we'd push each other into the chairs it was like human bowling Yeah, this is what happens when you go to Catholic all-girls school and you can't flirt with boys.
You have to fucking play human bowling because you're so... or but I remember I remember watching it I was like yes somebody you guys are laughing and somebody would get on You know, it's in a gymnasium, so it's got that nice, like slick floor or that smooth floor.
Yeah. One of you would get in there and the others would just push with all your might.
And the thing would just. crash into the chairs.
And I'm like, this is insane. No, no, that's Catholic all girls school.
So yeah. So I remember like watching those and I just thought.
There was other videos you did too. But in any case, to get back to it, I was like, oh, these are so... So I thought...
When you were expressing interest about doing YouTube or whatever, I thought, go for it.
Like for sure. And then at the same time, cause I remember I was thinking, yeah, I've been thinking I want to do something art related on YouTube.
And, and then that's when we started saying, I was like, send me some videos that you like.
And I, and I'll do the same. that was when I found like discovered vlogging.
I hadn't even looked at watching. I wasn't like, I would always go and watch music.
But then I started seeing that people were like vlogging.
I thought, oh, what if I did something like, vlog related about painting where you go out and you sort of record the experience of painting on location. because I'm doing it already, sort of incorporate that.
And so then that became my YouTube thing.
Yeah, we both kind of simultaneously became YouTubers in a way.
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Please fuse responsibly. So the thing that I think is really interesting is that So you were 17 when you moved to L.A.?
? Right. And I knew people who are musicians who moved to L.A.
To me, the thought of moving to LA by myself.
Now, obviously, just so that we don't that your mom and I don't seem like negligent parents or whatever. we were going to be like, all right, we'll take turns being down there to make sure that you're okay.
I remember you called me and you said, I'm moving to LA and you can't say no.
Yeah. Right? But my question is, Did you have any fear about moving to LA?
I mean, it's like... it's six hours away at best when the car yeah it's like almost 400 miles from where I grew up.
From the Bay Area. Yeah. So it's quite a ways.
I think it was a combination of A few things.
I think, number one, I was aloof to... you know, moving to this big city as a 17 year old, like what, what the dangers of that even are.
I think I was aloof to it. But then I do think that I was running on adrenaline and it's like, Wait, hold on.
I've just spent the last year of my life Not in school.
All my peers are in school. I've been alone. you know, not socializing with kids my age very much, The only time I get to is when I'm interacting with my peers who are also in this industry.
I felt like, wait a minute, this is my ticket to... being a social being again.
I want to be around people. And I was starting to get recognized by fellow YouTubers at the time.
And I was like, That was so exhilarating to me.
You know, all these people I had been watching on YouTube forever are now like, we watch you on YouTube.
And I was like, that is, I can't, handle that.
I have to move now. And I was like, I don't care about being famous, but the thing that really put the fire under my ass...
To succeed at it. was to be friends with these people that I watched.
Like, it's almost like that... motivated me more than anything.
And I wasn't, like, super fangirl about it, but it was more like, oh, I genuinely think that these would be good friends.
Like... And we also have a common hobby in a way.
Right. Oh my God, how... special would it be to have friends who have the same passion as I do? for creating a video.
Like that's so cool to me. Like I wanted that so bad.
That is the one thing Like, I think when you called me, you were expecting me to give like push back on that.
I thought it was great. Like I thought you need to go because of that very reason. that you were doing this thing, you had committed to it, And there's no one in the Bay Area that was doing that.
Or maybe they were, but the whole... There were other... you know people down here that were doing that sort of thing so to me is like yes Go for it.
Yeah. For sure. when I thought about it, it still impressed me like, wow, she's like 17 and she's just going for it.
But yeah, And you're right. I thought about this too when I first came down to visit.
You're not somebody who's moving to LA to get into the industry.
You were already in it. And it was almost like overdue.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It was like overdue that you got down here where.
Other people were doing things because immediately you hit the ground running.
When you came down here. Well, it was automatic.
I did have things to do. It was somewhat easy for me to make friends because at that point I was...
I was peers with these kids. It wasn't like, Well, it was clear to me because I came, what did I come down?
I came down with you, like your mom and I would take turns, but-
Even before you moved down, it came down with you.
And I remember you had constant things going on.
It was nonstop. And I don't even think you expected that that first time there was a There was almost too much going on.
I remember losing focus easily. Like, it was like, you know... there were so many kids that were like, you need to come out, come out and do this with us.
You need to come out and do this with us.
You need to come out and do this with us.
And it became hard to balance that social life with like – wait a minute, I still have to do what I came here to do, though.
And I will say, I got lucky that... Yeah, I think I lost my footing quite a few times throughout the journey, but...
I never lost my footing to a point where it was... irreversible.
It was unfixable. And I think naturally, when you come and do your career When your brain is not fully developed?
Yeah. It's like you're just due to... My brain still isn't probably fully developed.
Well, I mean, that's what I was saying. You're gonna, you have to make Part of any, I mean, that's part of the journey is like making mistakes and learning what works you know as long as it's not dangerous you know i know I stayed out of danger.
Yeah, I just think it still took courage to come down here, you know?
Thank you. See, for me, it was like... It was just like, it was like, holy shit.
Yeah. And all the other thing I was going to say too is this is another thing. that I observed is that, and you can tell me your take on this, But when it came to all of this, it wasn't, like I never felt like money and fame was something you were, that was not, the point of you with YouTube.
YouTube for you was almost, and correct me if I'm wrong, But you saw videos or you saw things where you're like, that's cool.
I want to do that. It's always been hard for me to figure out What I was even trying to do with YouTube, it was all so intuitive.
It was like, I'm just... Like I'm obsessed with doing this, but I don't know why.
It's like with YouTube. It's not obviously creative.
Does that make sense? It's not obviously creative.
I did not understand... Like, what, why do I, like, why does this creatively fulfill me?
Yeah. And up until recently, I was kind of unsure.
Like, why... is making a YouTube video a creative thing.
And it totally makes sense to me now. I think, number one, It's the art of entertainment.
Like... creating something that will entertain somebody for a period of time.
That's number one. I think number two, it's sort of the art of creating something so seamless that That when you're watching it, you're there.
Like, that's the editing of it all. Can I say something?
Sure. See, here's the thing. And this is beautiful.
I almost think For whatever reason, this whole thing is so intuitive to you, you can't even explain it. but I have thought about this a lot.
And so what you're trying to articulate is I think, here's my thought, and you can tell me if I'm right.
With any kind of art, and I don't care if it's music or painting or making a video or making a movie or whatever.
What you're trying to do is create an alternate world or reality for a person to disappear into.
And if the mechanics of that are obvious... then it breaks the spell and you're out.
So if you're listening to a song and all of a sudden you hear... like the beat is like completely off or the voice goes off or this or that.
It can be a lyric, anything to break the spell.
You're out of that, world mm-hmm and so what you now naturally had in a video is the same thing.
You're trying to create something where the person disappears into that world and it's It's the world that's seen.
It's real, but it's seen through your eyes.
Like the music you create. where you're down to a tenth of a second of an edit or a cut makes a difference on how the flow and the feel...
That's something I noticed very early on.
I was like, Because it's musical in a way.
And I feel like that ability to where...
You can get lost in your edits. And you go for that ride and your edits have changed as you've changed the way you present and you know how you create your videos. but it's all still you and it seems to be very natural.
But the key thing I think with all good art Is it takes you disappear into it and you don't see it.
And so that's why I think a lot of times the good stuff, it almost seems like it just exists.
Totally. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's true.
And I could say, like, people might say, oh, like...
Emma, I've seen your timelines, okay? And I've seen you work.
And, and, you're a gifted editor period, you know?
And so like, and you keep getting better, you know?
And so. I'm just going to start bringing guests on to gas me up.
Hey, I mean, that's what dads are for. Totally.
I love it. But no, the reality is that's the truth.
So I feel like it's clear when you're talking about these things that you're... it is such an instinct for you and i think the key thing is is that that that is so important because you almost have to get out of your own way when you're creating effectively.
Okay. So like the flow state where you are creating is when you're in that moment where you're entertaining yourself almost.
And it starts there. It's gotta be in that, the best stuff comes when you're like, you're in that state where you're creating something and you're not, thinking necessarily about, oh, how's anybody going to watch?
How's this going to come off? Or whatever.
Then you're That's it. You're going to lose exactly.
You're going to lose the flow. I think that's why you really have to enjoy doing it.
And I think this industry is... fascinating to me because you know and this is not to insult anyone anyone at all.
But I think a lot of people want to be, they want the end result, which is, Being famous.
And then they choose a creative outlet that they're like, well, this one maybe is my favorite.
So I'm going to try to do this. The unfortunate thing about it is that I really don't think it can be forced.
And I... But you could... Oh, go on. Yeah, no, I mean- I was going to say, because that's such a good point.
And the point I want to make about that is you're right.
There are a couple options. What I've noticed is there's the flow state where something comes from something authentic.
And it has vulnerability. It has uniqueness that is as unique as you are as a person when you're channeling that part.
But I've noticed with any kind of art, music, et cetera, there is another way that's easier psychologically.
Well, I'll just say this style and technique.
Yeah. Okay. If you like, so you can. There are so many tools we have now.
And even, I mean, you can rely on... Fluff.
Yes. It's like all style, no substance. Yes, exactly.
Exactly. And I'm almost the other way. Like the stuff I like. is almost the opposite, where the substance is good And the style and the other stuff is played way down.
You know, that's kind of why... When it comes to like...
Everything I do, I would say, across the board.
I am really diehard about... using the bare minimum equipment having the lowest quality, well, the setup that we're using right now for the podcast is gorgeous and nice, but when I'm at home, It's much more basic, but it's not too fancy.
And I think there's two reasons for that.
Number one, because it's just easier. You can waste so much time making sure your super fancy camera is all charged up and in focus.
It's like, no, fuck that. Like, let's just...
Use the easiest equipment possible so that we can just go.
Like, let's just go. That's right. That's number one.
So it's just like for ease, because then you can be much more spontaneous and whatever.
But then I also think, you know... Being able to make something that is good and effective In my eyes?
With... non-fancy equipment, it forces me to create the substance.
Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does.
I'm not getting lost in the sauce trying to make it look... Right. you know, super crisp, super perfect, super whatever.
Because the reality is nobody cares. It makes no difference.
It really doesn't. That's what's fascinating.
I used to say, okay. And, and I've been thinking about that a lot lately.
Like, I like the idea of writing a song and recording it on my phone.
If it doesn't work like that, then it's not working.
And so- So true. Because I said, you know, I was like, if you put Paul McCartney or Elvis Presley in front of your phone and they sang a song, Or anyone.
If it's good, it's good. And... So I think that one of the challenges we have now is like technologically speaking, We have so much.
And so I even do this with painting. I've cut down my colors to like minimum colors.
I'll paint a painting with one brush only.
One of the things that can happen to us nowadays is that, like you say, we can get lost in the sauce or we can get distracted by things that we may think are important or necessary, and they're not.
But I had another question I wanted to ask you regarding the pressure that to stay in that state or the flow creative state where you're making something for yourself and it does happen easily, like say in a video, like making something when you have So many people, you know that so many people are going to watch that video.
And so trying to get into a place where that doesn't get into your head while you're making videos.
And I know obviously we talked about this and there's times where it does or it's hard to But what have you found that's been helpful to maintain that flow state in creating that even though there's, you know, that you have such a big audience.
I feel like a level of like detachment You know, almost a level of denial.
Like, I think I've tricked myself into... kind of forgetting that part.
Like I've unintentionally. so I can't really explain how I did it, but when I'm making the video, I am sort of making it for me.
It's so much work to make the video. which sounds ridiculous, I'm so embarrassed to say that.
It's work if you're not doing it. If you're doing it for yourself, it's not work.
Let me elaborate. It's just so time consuming, right?
Listen, there's many more time consuming things on this planet, but My videos take 20 hours to edit, right? you won't make it through.
You won't finish editing. Unless... you're doing it for you.
Because it's a very tedious project, you know?
It's like I can't even finish it if I'm not doing it for me.
So... That explains the... I don't know, probably...
50 videos that have never gone out because it's just like I couldn't I was in my I wasn't in flow with it I can't finish it if I don't get into that.
And I can only get into the flow if I'm making it for me.
Like, I'm like, this is for me. I am excited.
I'm like... so excited for the end result that I, you know, I need to keep going, whatever.
Um, And that seems like that's what brought you back, you know... too recently was that just needing to return to that creative outlet that made you happy.
Well, I think the reason why I was off of it for so long was not because like editing the video wasn't getting me into flow state. because I definitely think I was actually able to get there.
It wasn't the editing that was a problem for a long time, but rather...
I didn't want to be on camera. And so that was the challenge.
Like, if I... were to have been given a video of somebody else to edit.
Mm-hmm. and I was excited about that video, I would have been able to get into the flow state and be excited about it.
It was like, I don't want to be on camera.
I don't wanna look at myself. I can't, I don't wanna talk on camera.
And those are two separate things. That's what's interesting about it.
It's like there are two... key variables when it comes to making a video.
It's like, number one, I need To be in a space where my energy is just good.
Mm-hmm. My energy just needs to be good.
And I need to have things that I want to say and...
I need to be an energy that somebody wants to be around.
But then also, I need to be making a video that I'm excited to edit.
So it's those two variables. And I found that now, I'm excited about making videos because it has nothing to do with money.
I'm not doing brand deals anymore on my YouTube.
My YouTube is now... my playground completely.
I've removed all industry from it completely.
You know, there are moments when it's like, I work with Levi's, I'm wearing a pair of Levi's in this video anyway, right? let's shove it let's throw it in but it's like I the industry is completely removed from it yeah for me And that's, you know, that's an absolute privilege.
I'm so grateful that I'm able to do that, you know, from a financial standpoint now where-
I don't have to make money from YouTube anymore.
So now... That just can be fun. It's back to being my little playground.
And I really think That's what's so wild about it is it's like I... YouTube... became my job, inevitably that, that, that challenged my relationship with YouTube.
And I struggled with it up until now where it's just fun now.
Right. Does that make sense? Like, I don't think I ever was... I don't know if I can ever... have that as a job and still enjoy it as a hobby.
Like I don't... But also did you feel... Did you feel like... this is something that I felt when I was younger, that if I let go, like, Any of the creative things that I was doing, I had to hold on to them.
If I took a break, I felt like I'd lose it.
So I was always nervous during breaks. And what I've found as I've gotten older is that Breaks are essential because if you're not growing as a human being, your art isn't going to grow.
You have nothing to pull from. No. So you go... So I find that the best way... creatively for me is to do a push when I'm feeling it.
You know, when I'm like, all right, I'm ready.
Do a big push. And then... Take a break and do – and not feel bad about it and not feel –
And I know when I hit that wall, when I'm like, okay, I'm done.
I can't. It starts taking a toll on me emotionally or whatever.
I've been... And I just feel like, okay, I'm ready.
But the thing that in the past is... I felt like I couldn't let it go.
Like if I did, if I stopped... then I'd actually lose what I had.
And the reality is every time I came back after a break, Even with something like painting, there was times where I just, for whatever reason, I was working on music and I didn't paint for two years. months and i come back you're better grown and doing other things and engaging in other things I mean, it's ridiculous, but all of those have helped.
You know, when I first started surfing, I didn't do anything else for like No music, no... And even that... changed my approach to music and art. all of its interlinked.
If you're, if you're just doing your art over and over, you're going to run out.
Like you need life. You need it. Life to bring into what you do.
And I, but. The point is that living life fuels your creativity.
Well, that's why I think you know, the ultimate goal when you're in a creative industry at all is like, Get to a point where you can...
Set things up from the get go to a point where you have space.
Mm hmm. You need to give yourself space.
And that was the thing that was so challenging about Well, I mean, I've been on some sort of weekly calendar since...
I started whether it was with YouTube or it's with podcasts, you know, and it's, Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, it's challenging.
And I think now I'm at a point where I know how to create space so that I can go live, you know?
But it can be really easy to sort of just get on a hamster wheel and not be able to get off and then, you know, but you end up running yourself into the ground and you have Absolutely.
But you also stunt your growth. Oh yeah.
The other thing I was going to say is in during those breaks where you are getting that fulfillment, that's also like the way I look at it, that's input mode right there.
That's when I'm listening to tons of music and I'm, or looking at a bunch of art and it's like priming the pump.
And also living whatever I'm doing, whether it's hanging with friends or whatever.
I mean, for me, I kind of ping pong between these different things, but. yeah, those breaks away from it are like input mode.
And that's really cool too. My input mode is so different.
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I feel like my input mode is like, okay, a few things.
Mm-hmm. Number one, being very social. Who's dating who?
Who's fighting with who? Who's going out tonight?
Like being a normal 22-year-old who just...
Is fucking in this drama Right And in the thick of it Yeah It's like that. gives me so much to talk about.
That gives me so much to talk about. That gives me But I mean, it's also just fulfilling, weirdly enough.
Yeah. I don't know, but that's sort of my input.
I think you touched on another really key thing that for me for a while was like –
I kind of neglected. And now it's the most important thing.
Being social. People. people, whether it's your family or whatever, but friends.
Having good friends is... i couldn't even and that's something i learned when i first started painting full time i was just by myself And when I was working as a courier, I saw a ton of people.
And then when I was When I was doing construction, same.
There's this constant interaction. And that was almost enough for me.
But then when I went to full-time painting...
It was not good because I didn't have any interaction.
So it took several years, but now... I realize people is the most important thing, period.
I agree. A hundred percent. Having good relationships with friends who are, and you got to choose your friends carefully.
Like, because if you're a creative person.
Well, not even just your friends. It's fucking everyone.
It's your friends. It's who you work with.
It's who you date. It's all of it. Yeah, because I do think... yeah, you don't want to be around.
I want to be around people that are excited about just the reason you came here to LA.
If you're around other people that are like, Let's go for it.
Let's do this or whatever. That's what you want to be around.
And sadly, there are people that... Are not in that space, you know, that and you have to be careful around that.
You know that I've... I know. You can't get into any sort of flow state when... you're around somebody who's just shutting down that energy.
Like, Getting into any sort of creative flow state requires this sort of flow. free-flowing sense of Your personality out into the outside world.
You need to just be able to let yourself be And when somebody's, you know, around you and they just dull that.
And, I mean, you've seen this happen to me throughout my career where –
There's a bad apple and I can't fucking do anything.
I'm out of a job. Well, what I would say, one thing I have noticed that I've actually learned from you this way is that, and again, you run on instinct, but if you sense that, they're out.
They are out. Whereas me, I would be more polite and I would let that mess me up.
Yeah, but you know I've let it mess me up.
No, I know, but you are better about... That person, no.
And so I've gotten way better about that.
And part of it is just that I have... For whatever reason, I think when you're putting out a positive message, thing or whatever, if your vibe is positive, you start it.
You just attract other people like that as well.
And so I can easily make that choice. I'm just not going to hang out with somebody. who has that sort of oppressive... Because it is so detrimental to...
If you're a person who a big part of their joy is the excitement about making things and creating things.
If, You have to be careful not to be around somebody who's going to dampen that because it's going to bum you out.
But I mean, it goes for even people who aren't creative.
And oftentimes, though, the trick is that sometimes it's just a feeling.
Like, I just don't feel good. after i am around this person or something and then you and then you and a lot of times you'll You'll even question yourself and you'll be like, is it me or whatever?
And then that's why it's helpful to have a friend who's like, No, it's not you.
No, that's what you do for me. Yeah. Well, it's like, it's so...
It's a tricky thing because if you're brought down... if you're criticized, you might buy into that mindset.
I was like, no, that is not That's their reality.
That is not what we're after here. Well, it is fascinating how you start to see... reality through... Like, I realized this more recently how...
The people that you're around, you see things through their lens.
That's right. Like when you're alone. Mm-hmm.
That is when you're seeing things truly through your own lens.
There's no bias. You like something because you like something.
When I listen to a song alone... it's a completely different experience to listening to a song with somebody else.
Like today I showed you a song. Yeah. And I was like, this shit is so fucking good.
And I showed it to you. And I was like... oh my God, wait, this is actually kind of bad.
Like I didn't, because I started to listen to it.
I know what you're saying. Through your, I was listening to it through your ear.
I felt. Or no, you were listening through what you thought maybe my ear would be.
Sure, sure. Yeah, but that's the thing. But that's why you have to be around people.
When you share something with somebody, you're like, oh, wait, I know because you're second guessing.
That's right. But more than that, it's also that. being around somebody else, you're seeing things through their lens and maybe some people don't do that.
Like that might just be a personal thing to me or a personality trait I have.
But like when I'm with somebody, I am then seeing the world through their eyes for the duration of the time that we're together. that you're really close to have to have a really solid relationship Lens that they're viewing the world through because if not then you'd start taking their lens with you and And then, you know, if they see things in a way that, is shitty, negative, bad, then that starts to become your default.
It's going to drag you down for sure. And I think you're exactly right.
And that's something that That I, like I said, I've become more aware of.
And I think for you, it's like instinct.
I think it's easier for me because... At the end of the day, I'm happiest when...
My core people are good, which is, you know, that's excluding... those who come and go, right?
You know, you and... my mom and like, you know, that's the core, you know, but even like, If me and you and my mom and the few other little core people are there.
Uh-huh. And... I'm in a really exciting, inspired, motivated place career-wise.
Yeah. All is good. And so if there's a bad apple, guess what happens now?
I can't get work done, which literally, you know this?
Yeah. I know. I fucking freak out. I'm like, why is it not going?
Why – Do I have nothing to talk about? Why do I have nothing?
I cannot make anything. I can't say anything.
I can't do anything. Freak out. Crisis mode.
Everyone batting down the hatchet. It's like a nightmare.
But then as a result of that, now I'm bringing... that terrible energy to the core people.
You and my mom and Ali and all the core people suffer. because I'm a mess.
And so then my relationship with you suffers.
And then now I have nothing. My relationship is suffering. with my core people because I'm a mess.
My work is suffering all because of that one bad apple.
Isn't it interesting? Isn't it interesting how that one... little ripple can have this effect.
Yeah, that's very precise. I haven't even thought of it in that terms.
I just think... But that's why it's so easy for me to be like, holy shit.
It's a good point. No, no, no. But for me, it's life or death because...
I need those foundational pieces of my life to be intact.
And so if that... I'm so hyper-aware of...
But see, there's been moments in my past where there's been a bad apple-
And I know that this apple is bad, but I let it fucking go for too long because I'm like, I don't want to let go of this person.
Like, you know, and... And my God, have we paid the price for that. that's why it's so important, in every type of relationship, Across the board, platonic, romantic, business, it doesn't matter.
All relationships... kind of need to be taken slow.
You have to take every type of relationship slow and it's so hard to do that because In every type of relationship, again, you can be like, oh my God.
Like we just click and you can start skipping steps.
This happens in friendships too. I mean, I know that most people are probably thinking of, romantic relationships but I'm actually thinking about friendships as well like you meet a you know a fun person at a bar and you're like, Oh my God, we just click.
We're like bestie vibes, whatever. And you're like, Oh, okay, we're going to go on a trip together.
We're going to go on a girl's trip. And it's like, no, you don't know that person well enough.
It's... And the problem with that is that's when you get yourself into a relationship where where you find out later that they're so, so bad for you, but you got, you skipped steps and now You're so far ahead that you can't then pull back and create that distance that's safe.
It's too late. That sounds like almost something like you're going into a friendship or a relationship with sort of a set of conceived ideas of who the person is as opposed to letting it evolved naturally in a way where you're seeing them really for who they are, you know?
So that it is hard because I think you, Yeah, I think it's...
That's tough to do, you know, especially I think I do think especially in romantic relationships. people start creating all kinds of scenarios about who that person is and Nobody's perfect, right?
So that's what I'm saying. Like, that's like the three month thing is just, you know, just be. friends with somebody for like three months.
Most of them Might make three weeks and you're like, oh God, thank God I dodged that.
And then, but some, if you're getting up to three months and you're still like, Wow, this person is really cool.
You know, then you're on to something. Yeah.
So then push it another three months. My dad's a big fan of dying.
What's the rush? Yeah. What is the freaking... Like, that's... I honestly feel like...
That's the magic time. It is the most fun.
It's so wonderful. It's so cool. And... So I just think, I think there is no rush and, and, and allow somebody to be who they are and you, it'll, and they'll, because like everybody.
It will come out, right? And it's kind of interesting to see how soon... that comes up.
How long can they keep up the charade? You know what's so crazy is I'm just thinking about And we all do it.
Oh, totally. But I'm just thinking about all the times in my life When I've come to you and been like, I am obsessed.
Like with like a guy. You've seen that?
Like moral of the story is I'm like mortified thinking about Through Your Lens.
How often I'm like, no, wait a minute. This is the one.
No, wait, hold on. This one. Wait a minute.
Back it up. That one out. This one in. Yeah, but I don't know because I don't see it that way.
I don't look and go, oh, she's so cringe.
What if I did that? Oh my God. How did I raise such a cringy daughter?
She is the worst. But no, it's more just like, it's more, that's just normal.
Especially when you're younger, it's really normal.
It comes with experience where you're like, okay...
I just feel like the boy who cried wolf or the girl who cried wolf.
I feel like the girl who cried wolf with like, It's also like an anxious thing too.
Like when you're anxious, you're like, I need to move fast to secure this thing, whatever that is.
Yeah. I think... I think what the rush comes from a lot of time or a lot of times the rush is.
I have a void in me and this is going to solve my problem.
You know what I mean? Then that's when the wheels start spinning and you're creating this illusion.
If you're in a state of kind of satisfaction and happiness...
I think then you can look at almost everything around you with no expectations and you see things more clearly and you make better decisions.
So I think the moral of that story is you know, If you find a way to be fulfilled and happy personally, then you're not going to be looking for whether it's you know, business opportunities or this or a relationship or this or that. to solve that problem and you end up rushing in and making bad decisions. challenge in life to reach that state.
And to be honest, you're one of the only people I've ever met in my entire life who have successfully, who have successfully done that.
Yeah, but I mean, it's just... If it's not happening by this age, it's a lot of years of doing exactly that and learning from the process. you know, of having that experience and saying, Oh, you know, I need to slow down and Just understand that a lot of the decisions I made were to fill some kind of Well, that's what I'm saying.
I don't think you do anything to fill voids anymore. part of that is, you know part of it is, is the lack of expectation of anything anymore.
And I think part of that comes with being a dad, like that was huge.
So like having a child and I do feel honestly, like I don't need to do anything else, you know?
I take up a lot of your time calling you scream crying about something.
Not so much lately. I know. I'm kind of good right now.
When do you think it got really good recently?
I would say... Because it was pretty dark for a minute.
Yeah, but I would say overall, I'd say overall since the beginning of this whole adventure or whatever.
Wait, what whole journey? Like my career?
Yeah. Like I think. Oh God. Well, no. Oh, no, but what I'm... Well, I know, I know.
But what I'm saying is that I've noticed this... gradual progression where it's gotten better and better and better.
But I'd say where it's been... Really good?
I don't know. The last few months have been fire.
Yeah, but also I'd say like the last, even the last, you know, the last couple of years have been better.
And then now it's just continuing to get better and better is what I'm seeing.
There was a time there where it was tough.
It was difficult. And But now, like, you're sobbing.
No, because it was what? I didn't... You know, part of it was learning... about this whole situation.
And like I was about to say, What I was going to say is, where do you get the information?
How do you do this? And I realized you have to just trust your heart. through this whole process.
And then talking to your mom and same thing, I felt like, in a way, you're just sort of alone in this.
But I feel like both of us have kind of gotten to, all of us, all three of us, have sort of come back to just being normal people.
You know, it just feels just very normal now.
I know, I feel like I'm not calling you as much with...
Can I be honest? I actually think I've really figured out how to self-soothe.
Like, I... have figured out how I can...
I don't know, like all of the unfortunate feelings are now familiar.
Yeah. And so I can... I know what they feel like.
I know that they're going to go away. Um, I also like have... various little mantras that I will, that I have stored in the back of my head for when a thought comes up.
Like when I'm, getting really anxious about, you know, like how I feel overexposed and stuff, for example, like I feel so exposed.
Yeah. But I think the hardest thing for me is like just being – it's just that I think this job exacerbates –
various mental health issues I already had.
Being an anxious and depressed person, It can...
Mainly with anxiety for me, though, it just really – it really – sends me and that's but again those things I'm figuring out how to But I think we're all challenged by those things, myself included.
I don't think anybody is not there's a whole new set of challenges that we have today.
So even if you're not in the industry, you're still wrestling with this digital reality that we're dealing with.
Absolutely. I think that I have like... That's...
More like the root of mine at times can be more challenging to express, I think, because they're just very unusual.
But I think that the feeling is ultimately the same.
And again, but we both are... So in support of the internet as well, where it's like- For sure.
We, you know, it can enhance- Life. Absolutely.
Oh yeah. I mean, I think if you're a creative person, it's awesome.
It's just trying to figure out. It's about consuming the right stuff when you are online and also making sure that you have a life outside of it as well.
And it's tough. It's tough. But I agree.
That is important. It's an important distinction that you made, which is that I'm so thankful that as a creative person, being able to have YouTube and Patreon and Instagram as an artist, it's essential.
It's super helpful. But it is this thing where I have to constantly remind myself not to get too sucked into it and to appreciate the...
The three-dimensional. I think that's why it's so important to have a goal. to create something that has a positive impact in one way or another.
Like that's why that's crucial because it's like, you know, you don't want to build a career online in a way that is adding value to the junk pile.
You know what I'm saying? Which is easy to do and can actually be quite fruitful.
Right. I mean, it's a valuable thing just to create a little quiet place somewhere for people to visit.
Sometimes that's enough. That is enough.
Hopefully we created a quiet place for the listeners today.
I doubt it. I don't think it was very quiet.
I think we're good. Do you feel like we covered it?
Yeah, I love it. I hope I delivered. Summers in the 90s used to sound like this.
And now they just sound like... But thanks to Instacart and Venmo, this summer can sound like a 90s summer again.
Just link your Venmo to your Instacart and save $10 when you spend $25 or more. so that you can summer like it's 1999, but pay like it's 2025.
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