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Good morning.
This is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.
So today I am delighted to welcome Paul Leonardi to Before Breakfast.
Paul is a professor at UC Santa Barbara and the author of the brand new book Digital Exhaustion Simple Tools for Reclaiming Your Life.
So Paul, welcome to the show.
Good morning, Laura.
Nice to be here.
Yeah.
So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, so as you mentioned, I'm a professor at UC Santa Barbara.
I've been a professor for about 20 years.
And during that time, I've really spent my effort and energy trying to understand how people and people who are working in companies can use digital tools effectively to increase productivity efficiency wellbeing, et cetera.
And there's a dark side, as we both know, That all of these tools do great things for us.
They also wear us out.
And so a big chunk of what I've been focusing on for the last few years is trying to understand how do we make sure that we're taking advantage of all the great things these tools do for us at work and in our personal lives and not get so worn out by them.
All right.
Well, that leads us to the title of your book, Digital Exhaustion.
I am sure you have been asked this a million times, but what exactly is digital exhaustion?
Great question.
I like to define it more by feeling rather than just a definition.
So play along with me here if you don't mind.
Have you felt, as you sat in front of your screen, that the screen's kind of like a tractor beam?
It sucks you in, that you're scrolling and you're clicking.
You're kind of feeling lack of energy.
You maybe look at your watch and you're like, what have I been doing for the last 10 minutes?
You know you need to send an email.
You know you should be replying to somebody on Instagram but you kind of don't want to.
But you can't quite leave and get up.
If you've had those sorts of feelings before that's digital exhaustion in a nutshell, right?
It's this kind of pervasive feeling that.
I should be doing more but I can't quite pull away but I'm not being productive and it's kind of getting overwhelming.
All right, well, that's an interesting way to look at it.
I'm trying to figure out what exactly is leading to this.
Because obviously some tools are incredibly helpful for our life.
I'm hoping that the squad cast where we're recording is not glitchy, but there's no way we'd be doing this you in California and me in Philadelphia and, like you know, able to see each other.
I mean, there's a lot of tools.
Digital tools are incredibly helpful.
Amazing.
Yeah.
But is it just the sheer volume of them that's the problem?
Is it the time we're spending on them?
What is leading to the problem?
Yeah, there's a combination of factors that I really outline in the book.
And the myth that I wanted to spell right off the top is that that we're just using tools too much.
I don't think that's really the problem.
We have to use them to get by in today's world, whether that's at home, whether it's at work, at parenting with our families.
The key is how do we use them in ways that don't lead to those feelings of exhaustion that we just described?
So there are three key drivers to digital exhaustion.
The first is attention.
We hear a lot today about how we need to focus.
We need to do deep work.
All that's great.
I totally agree, but I think those conversations miss a slightly different point, which is that the way we pay attention exhausts us.
So for most of us, we're constantly switching across different devices.
We're at home and we're thinking about work.
We're doing one project, but we're also switching to do things on another project simultaneously.
And each of those switches and how we pay attention and where we pay attention is really exhausting.
We switch tools roughly 1,200 times a day.
Think about that, like how many of those switches happen.
And even if you're doing something as seemingly banal as switching between, let's say, Microsoft Teams and Zoom, that are both video conferencing platforms, think about okay, I've got to figure out where the record button is or how I get my mic on on this new application.
And all of those micro decisions are just cognitively exhausting.
They wear us out.
So how we focus our attention is one.
The second is about inference.
So we are exposed to so many data points all day long.
And sometimes those are data points in an Excel spreadsheet.
Sometimes they're images that we see on Instagram or a video on TikTok.
And it's easy to think that, well, we just are seeing the total here.
We're seeing the world.
We're seeing all of the bits and pieces of information, but we're not.
We're always making inferences about what do these data actually mean?
Or why did that person post that?
Or I wrote this thing in this email.
What does that person think about what I just wrote?
And so we're constantly making all these inferences about data and information sources.
And there's just great research that shows that when you make those inferences, we get emotionally exhausted, we get mentally exhausted and we're just doing that constantly.
And then the final piece is just really around emotions.
I don't think we typically think of technology and emotion in the same sentence, but the way we use our tools and how we get involved in the flow of our work or interactions that we have, maybe on text message, with our family and friends, they lead to a whole range of emotions.
Some of them really great, we're excited, we're feeling really happy.
Others, we're feeling kind of depressed, or we're having anxiety, or maybe we're mad.
And emotions are one of the biggest sources of our exhaustion.
Whether they're positive or negative, emotions wear us out.
And everything we do with technology today peaks our emotions in all kinds of ways.
So if you think about attention, inference and emotion, Those are the things that are wearing us out.
It's not our tools, but it's how our tools create these different orientations to those three drivers.
Well, and one of the things you suggest in the book is doing a bit of an audit on all the tools you are touching in the course of the day, what we're switching between 1200 times.
Right.
I'm curious, what are the sort of numbers people are posting when they do an audit?
What kind of numbers is that list going to be so our listeners don't feel bad when they do this?
Yeah, so I've done this with probably 60, 70 people at this point.
And On average, I would say people report using between 35 and 40 different applications today.
That's up from about a decade ago, when I started doing this and people were reporting somewhere between 10 and 15 applications.
So that number has just dramatically increased in a few years.
Another interesting fact about that difference between then and now is when I used to ask people okay well, tell me about the digital tools they're using.
They would say, well, I use my laptop and I use my phone and I use my computer.
So they were all devices.
And today almost nobody mentions devices, but they say I'm on this app and that app and this app across all of these different devices.
So it's not just that we're switching and paying attention and using so many different tools, but we're using them across different devices.
And so they all have different interfaces and different ways of interacting with them.
And 35 to 40, that seems like a lot.
But if you just start to think about okay well, I use Safari on my phone, and then I go on LinkedIn, and then I'm using Microsoft Word, and then I look at Gmail, and then they all add up real quick, real quick.
Well, but one of the things you then say with that is I mean, the truth sets us free when we know what all these are.
One of the upsides of doing this is you can see how many are just for personal use, which I think gives people more of a sense of agency over it.
Like I can't suddenly decide to stop using Zoom if that's how I communicate with my boss and I'm working remotely, right.
We can't just write that off.
But nobody's requiring you to be on Instagram, for instance, most of the time.
Yeah.
That's true.
So my recommendation, when you're doing what I call a tool audit, is to say first just list out all of the different technologies that you use.
And I think you'll be surprised often how many duplicating tools we have.
You know that maybe you're kind of just for fun, you're talking to your family on FaceTime, but you're also talking to your family on Zoom.
And you're like, well, those are sort of giving me the exact same functionality.
Maybe I don't need to be using both of these.
So just listing is powerful, as you mentioned.
But then dividing between what do we use in our personal lives and what do we use at work helps us to recognize, just as you point out, that we can do a lot in our personal lives to reduce the number of tools that we use.
Sometimes it's harder at work.
Although I've lots of great examples of people who found that They're using a bunch of different technologies at work and nobody really knows why.
So I talked to one woman who was saying well, we have Dropbox and we have G Drive and we have SharePoint.
And we seem to save our files on my team in all of those.
And so I went and asked, why are we using all three of these?
And nobody knew.
So I just said to the team, the team was about eight people, what if we just picked Google Drive?
And everyone's like, oh yeah, that's fine.
We'll just move everything over to Google Drive.
So often, we're just stuck in this tool creep right where we have more and more devices and applications that we don't know why.
And so it's easier to take care of the ones at home, slightly harder in the workplace, but I think both are doable.
Absolutely.
All right well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then we'll be back with more about digital exhaustion.
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Well, I am back talking with Paul Leonardi, who is the author of the brand new book Digital Exhaustion.
We've been talking about doing a tool audit of every tool you touch in the course of the day and seeing which ones may be duplicates, which ones are solely for personal use and are within your control, whether you think they add to your life or not.
But even if we are going to use a tool, there are ways within the use of the tool to sort of tone down its exhaustion factor for us.
I mean, one of the things you mentioned is simply delaying responses.
How does that work to tone down the exhaustion?
Sure.
So this is, I think, a powerful rule that I talk about in the book.
It's rule number four, and it's maybe the most controversial of the rules in the book.
We're so ingrained in quick response times in at least the Western industrialized world.
Somebody sends us a message, a text, an email, a WhatsApp message and we feel like well, we just have to respond right away.
So there's a very strong cultural pressure towards that response.
What's interesting, though, is there's been a lot of research about people and response times.
And what the research shows is first, people overestimate how urgent they think someone else's requests are.
So we often think that we have to respond right away because this person needs this thing right now.
And if you go and survey the people that sent the request, they often say well, I didn't really need this as quickly as they thought that I did.
So thinking about this email urgency bias, I think is an important thing to remember.
Second, the data also show that people in train to our response patterns.
So if I'm someone who responds really quickly, then you're going to respond quickly, because I responded quickly.
And if I respond more slowly, you tend to respond more slowly because I responded more slowly.
So we get into this choreographed dance pretty easily with the people that we're exchanging messages to.
I'm not suggesting that we shirk our responsibility if there's a really important and urgent thing, but many of the things that people ask us aren't super urgent.
And many of the things people ask us resolve themselves if we don't respond right away.
I mean, you can probably think of many times in your life where someone's asked you for some help or asked you for this piece of information and you don't respond, for whatever reason, and then they, you know, email you back or text you and say, actually I don't need that anymore.
I moved on or I figured it out.
So delaying strategically sometimes can help us to reduce response time.
And the very last thing I'll say about this, because I know we should move on, but is that?
A lot of research shows that If we send longer messages that are more thoughtful, people respond to them less frequently.
And that's important, because what it means is that if I just take a little more time crafting something that's more thorough, then People will store that in their inbox.
They'll reflect on it.
It'll help to answer their questions.
Maybe that they don't have right now, but they'll realize that they have in five hours or in a week.
And that means that they're not constantly sending me these small follow-ups that get me out of the rhythm of my work and and really tax my attention for having to respond when I'm trying to do something else.
So I think delayed response, slowing down a little bit, is a huge tool that we can have in order to reduce our exhaustion.
Well, yeah.
And you say you train people in what you're like.
If I know that the emails I get from Paul are thoughtful and explain everything, and you know I'm not going to have a million follow up questions.
And I start to know the emails from Paul are actually serious.
I should.
I should start paying attention to them and reflecting upon them as they do.
One of the things I found sort of darkly humorous, like many of us wind up using apps and group texts and such in our personal lives, sometimes in the hope of saving time.
Right.
Like the idea of, OK, I'm going to carpool with three other families to soccer.
And because of that I am only going to have to go to soccer 25 percent of the time, because we're all taking each other's kids.
And yet the mental management of that, the mental load that winds up coming out of managing the carpool group chat um, can sometimes be as much as the time that you would have spent driving those children to soccer.
Yeah, a darkly humorous is probably a good way to describe it.
Um, You know, this particular chapter in the book that's sort of about parenting in the digital age is really poignant for me personally, because I've got three well, two teenage daughters and one almost teenage.
And I'm just like a chauffeur service, right?
I'm just driving them around constantly.
And so it was really sort of horrifying but also gratifying to talk to so many parents, to hear about what are your struggles and what are the ways that you deal with them.
And the concept that I would urge us to think about is what I call shadow hours.
So we think about a typical task like driving someone or carpooling, like how much time does that take?
And the mental calculation that most of us make is okay.
Well, how much time is this going to save me?
But what we don't think of are those shadow hours or the amount of time that happens in coordination to make that carpool happen.
And it's funny.
So just I'm just going to pull up my text here while we're talking, because just last night my wife's friend sent her a text and I'm going to see if I can read it here.
And it says, Got 83 texts today about the carpool situation.
I'm over it with a big face with crying.
Now, think about that.
All the time that you're trying to spend to coordinate because someone you know?
Okay well, my other kid's sick so I can't do the carpool today.
Or it turns out, you know, This person has to go here rather than there.
We're spending so much time trying to do these coordination activities that really take our time, attention and pique our emotions that in many cases, if we step back a bit, we might think maybe I just drive the person instead.
Maybe I just drive my kid and I don't have to do all this coordination and spend all these shadow hours.
And the other thing that I find talking to a lot of parents is they say these are really crappy connections with people.
I'm not actually building relationships by saying, okay, I'll pick up.
No, you pick up.
No, I'll be there.
No, you be there.
What people say that they do that really helps is that they'll say well, rather than let's try to coordinate this on text when we both go and we're here at this event, let's talk about it.
And then you actually see somebody, you laugh a little bit with them, you joke about the ridiculous situation that we're in driving our kids to and fro, and you feel like you're actually making a connection with someone and you're able to resolve a lot of those ambiguities.
That would have taken 30 texts in 15 seconds worth of talking.
I think that the watchword here is think about your shadow hours and think about how you can connect so much that you actually lose real connection with people.
Absolutely.
All right, we're going to take one more quick ad break and then we will be back with more on digital exhaustion.
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So I am back talking with Paul Leonardi, who's the author of the brand new book Digital Exhaustion Simple Tools for Reclaiming Your Life.
So, I mean, that's not to say we should never try to carpool or to, you know, outsource anything.
I mean, I'm reminded of the fact that like managing in general.
Like when you manage, when you outsource, you are still a resource.
Problem is we have to, you know, try to minimize how many shadow hours we are devoting to different things.
But I'm curious about your schedule here.
Let's talk about your schedule.
Okay, all right.
Do you have...
Any routines, particularly around how you deal with digital stuff or inputs that you feel make you more productive.
Yeah.
So I've developed a number of different tricks over the years, mostly inspired by doing the research for this book.
So one of the biggest ones is about my pattern of response to incoming queries.
And that for me often happens on email, but it also happens on LinkedIn.
It happens on text message.
It happens through some group chat devices that we use in my work and in my consulting and.
I used to be what I call a very hardcore batcher, meaning that I would pick certain times a day and I would say okay, this is my response period.
I'm going to give you a window, right?
An hour in the morning and I'm going to give an hour at lunch and an hour in the afternoon and I'm going to respond only during those times.
In fact, when I was really at my peak of doing this, I think I really did it like once a day.
And I was really efficient with all the rest of my work because I wasn't getting interrupted constantly by incoming messages that took my head out of the space that I was in and put it in somewhere else.
And my exhaustion felt relatively low.
However, what I noticed over time and after interviewing a lot of people who do batching versus what I call streaming, which is kind of just taking things as they come in and then responding to them right away is that I was actually letting a lot of people down.
You know, that I, I wasn't careful about triaging my messages, right.
And triaging the things that I needed to accomplish.
And so I put everything into the bucket of I'll respond to this at the end of the day, when some things actually needed much more quick responses.
And so I was making it difficult for other people to complete their work or to do the things they needed to do.
So over time I've moved toward having a system where I do dedicate chunks of time morning, right before lunch and then about an hour before I end my day, to real in-depth responses.
But I'm also just looking throughout the day to make sure that things aren't coming in.
That will require a really quick response that doesn't take a lot of my head space.
So it's a combination of figuring out about that batching and streaming and what the ideal balance is on those two activities for you that I think are really important.
Well, because it really is a balance, right?
I mean because there are people who are streaming all day and I can tell you, having studied their schedules, they get nothing done.
I mean, everyone's excited that you hear back from John immediately, but if John has never gotten around to finishing his part of the project, eventually it gets a little.
So, you know, that he was responsive, but not effective.
So I mean, I guess maybe people just need to try different things and see like, where you get the balance of people being unhappy with you versus where you get the balance of being unhappy with yourself because you're not getting stuff.
I guess.
I don't know.
I would say that most of the inbound things that we get this is after talking to 12000 people over the 20 years of studying this most of the inbound things that we get are not urgent.
And most of them require some amount of thought from us, other than the ones that we quickly delete right.
So like half your inbox, you can probably quickly delete.
But things require some focus.
So I do think it's worth figuring out how do I dedicate times in the day where I can really just focus on dealing with these issues And not in a time when I'm trying to write this report or put together this presentation or debrief with this client.
But we also have to recognize that there are going to be the periodic things that come in that require quick response.
And usually the responses that we need are not pulling us mentally out of a space to get us to be able to respond.
And so we can deal with those quickly without really breaking our concentration.
So my recommendation is that you think about okay, how do I batch most of these things into different times of the day?
But just make sure that I'm only responding to those things that are really urgent, that I need to as they come in.
And finding that balance for you is going to be slightly different for everybody.
Absolutely.
So Paul, one of the questions I always ask everybody on this show is what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
I love that question.
And for me it actually relates to one of the concepts in the book which, when I talk about flow and you're probably familiar with that concept most of your listeners are you know where you're really engrossed in an activity and you're just there.
Because the more you're there, the less you want to be elsewhere.
And there's all kinds of positive energy that comes from being in a state of flow, in a fun activity and a work activity doesn't really matter.
But one of the things that I tried to do recently was just to really be where I am.
And I know that sounds kind of funny.
But You know, the other day I was driving my daughter somewhere and I was thinking, so I started the drive thinking oh, like I have to drive her here.
Right.
But then when I thought about this rule number eight in the book, I was thinking okay, what if I'm just really here right now driving?
Cause I've made this choice.
So.
I just will be right in the car with my daughter."
That really changed my day dramatically because I really listened to her talk about her day.
We were driving along and she pointed out this beautiful bird flying along.
I was like, oh my gosh, that is a really beautiful bird.
The drive went by like that, right?
And like three, it felt like three seconds because I was in the drive.
I wasn't thinking about what email is going to respond to in my head, or think about the numbers I needed to crunch in my Excel spreadsheet later.
And that took my data great in a way that almost nothing else has in a while.
Would that all our driving children around could be that amazing.
No kidding.
There was no traffic and there was the birds were singing.
Birds were singing.
The clouds parted.
It was amazing.
It was amazing.
My teenager wasn't mad at me.
It was great.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Paul, what are you looking forward to right now?
Let's see, this sounds a little geeky, but I'm really looking forward to AI.
There's so much talk about it.
That kind of is exhausting, but I've been doing work with a lot of different companies that are building AI tools and starting to implement them.
And I really am excited about the possibility of how these different technologies are going to really change the way we work and the way that we enjoy our leisure time.
There are certainly some things to be scared about, but I'm actually quite optimistic that if we make some smart choices, we're going to, I think, have a better world.
And maybe that sounds a little Pollyanna-ish, but I don't know.
I'm kind of excited about it.
Yeah.
I mean, technology can be great.
You know, all these tools are amazing that we get to use them, even if they are occasionally exhausting.
So Paul, where can people find you?
Yeah, so you can find me at LinkedIn.
That's a great place to interact.
I'm on X, PLeonardi1 is the handle there.
And then my website PaulLeonardicom, is a great place to get updated on some latest writings, and places like Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review and other books I've written.
But check out Digital Exhaustion, please.
Please do.
It's an excellent book.
Well, Paul, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening.
If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura, at lauravandercamcom.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura Vanderkam dot com.
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