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As our planet gets hotter and disasters strike harder, world leaders gather for COP30 in Brazil.
Canada promises into action.
What's at stake this year and how is China taking the lead in a global fight against climate change?
Welcome to World Today, a news program with a different perspective.
I'm Xu Yawen, sitting in for Ge Anna.
In today's program, we delve into the key agendas at the ongoing COP30, explore the growing influence of the Global South and take a close look at China's role as a driving force behind global climate policy.
To listen to this episode again or catch up on previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today.
The 30th UN Climate Change Conference or COP30 is taking place in the heart of the Amazon region.
The conference brings together world leaders and scientists with one urgent goal to turn promises into real action and agreed on tougher plans to cut greenhouse gas emissions.
Joining me today to discuss this critical moment in the climate conversation are Wu Changhua, President of the Global Climate Academy and Chair of the Governing Council at the Asia-Pacific Water Forum.
Yasmin Scali, independent journalist from Brazil specializing in international relations.
David Fishman, principal at the Lantau Group.
Welcome to the program.
So, before we delve into COVID-19 agenda, let's firstly talk about where we are now in terms of climate change.
Data shows that global temperatures are rising faster than anticipated, with 2024 being the hottest year in human history.
And we're rapidly approaching the critical 15 degrees Celsius threshold, which could trigger irreversible climate impacts.
How do we make sense of this science behind the acceleration and how urgent is the issue today?
Sure.
Let me say basically last year, 2024, we already living in the world of 1.66 degrees Celsius warmer.
So we are already living in it, experiencing the consequences, how that felt like to be in a fastly global, warming world.
There already.
We live in Shanghai, and so this year we experienced this literally consecutively more than 40 days, with the temperatures average actually close to 40 degrees.
So we literally feel we know how it felt like actually.
Then globally, if you look at the Bloomberg recent estimate basically saying last year Globally because of the climate change, climate crisis, the loss and damages reached about 14 trillion.
That was a big number, literally.
Now looking into the scientific part, I think science has been really on it, constantly gathering data, monitoring the changes, the weather, the whole planetary system there.
So the numbers tell us very, very clearly that, from both the World Meteorological Organization as well as the Europe's Copernicus Climate Change Services, they all confirmed 2024 was the warmest and calendar uh on our record and uh so, of course, on average.
To put that in a broader perspective, we are definitely already at about 13 degrees celsius generally warming, and they're already uh.
So uh yeah, we are living in a very sort of a stark reality.
The world is warming and the planetary systems are, in one way or another, collapsing in a way.
And so the functions and the functionalities of the planetary system or the ecosystem, somehow being also impacted by intensified warming.
And so we are living in it.
We have to figure out how to deal with it.
And that's why having this COP30 at Brazil on Climate Talks is critical for all of us.
Yasmin, so Brazil has temporarily moved its capital from Brasilia to Belém for the conference.
As a Brazilian journalist, could you share with us why has Belém chosen as the host city for COP30 and what message is Brazil trying to convey?
Sure.
Well, I believe several factors led the Brazilian government to choose Belém as the host city for co-optery, but definitely two of them stand out.
The first could be the fact that Belém, as you mentioned, is an Amazonian city.
The world has been talking about the Amazon for decades, but very few people have actually seen the region.
And bringing COP30 to the city allows the international community to finally understand the ecological, culture and climate importance of the larger tropical forest areas on the planet and I think also is a way of recognizing and honoring indigenous people and traditional communities, who are the true guardians of the forest.
If we check in the official COP 30 website, even published press release.
They are making not only Portuguese and English, but also indigenous languages.
This is a very symbolic gesture that reinforce the central role of Amazonian people in climate governance.
And I believe the second reason is the logistical challenge because see, Hosting a conference of this scale in a state that still faces infrastructure limitation is a deliberate political choice.
As President Lula said in his open speech, and I quote him when there is political will, human beings can make possible what owns.
So the idea here is to show that if Brazil can organize the world's most important climate conference in the Amazon, then it can also advance the green transition and build greater harmony in our coexistence with what truly sustains life, with nature itself.
And finally, Brazil has also intends to use Belém as a platform to strengthen climate finance initiatives, including the new Tropical Forest Forever Facility, an innovative mechanism which was designed to mobilize long-term international resources for the protection of tropical forest.
So, in short, from my point of view, berlin was chosen to demonstrate political commitment, respect for the amazon, and also to show brazil's ambitions to lead the global climate agenda.
David, let me come to you now.
The Brazilian government has made implementation as a focus for this year's COP30.
For instance, it has asked countries to work on realizing past promises, like COP28 pledge to phase out fossil fuel use or the other commitment made at COP29 in Baku, where developed nations agreed to contribute 300 billion annually by 2035 to help developing nations fight against climate change.
How are countries doing in fulfilling these pledges so far?
Well, I don't want to come in with too much negativity, but so far it hasn't Really been great so far.
Starting with COP 28, pledge to phase out fossil fuel use.
And I think we can see, fossil fuel use has continued on a global basis and has even inched up a little bit over the last two years, over the last two periods of COPE implementation periods.
Individual countries or regions are doing all right.
Some have continued to reduce.
Some have started to flatten out.
I think, most notably and very importantly, it does look like Chinese emissions have decreased, apparently flattened out, over the last 12 to 18 months, while other countries continue to rise.
And the net impact of all of that has been that globally, emissions have still ticked up a little bit from fossil fuels in the last two years.
And then when we look at the last year now, of course last year's big, big pledge was a hard one, was a big one.
It was quite controversial at the time, right?
The 300 billion per year pledge from developed nations to assist developing nations with adaptation.
It was considered to be insufficient at the time and there was quite a lot of negativity around that number.
And unfortunately, I think from that period to now, while we did see some of the developed nations make some commitments at the time and since then to help build up towards that 300 billion, it's not been enough.
We still haven't reached an implementation level for the $300 billion.
I know that's a target of COP this year, but we've seen some important documents come out just in the last two weeks.
For example, the Baku to Belem implementation working plan, which is really focused on not just the 300 billion but the total 13 trillion implementation.
That is estimated to be needed to assist those developing nations to adapt through this transition period.
But overall, on both of those two kind of headline items that you mentioned, progress has been slow and certainly has fallen short of the scale and the urgency that we would hope for, considering how very few years left of the carbon budget that we have in order to keep warming under 15 degrees.
How can developed nations better fulfill their financial obligations?
Well, look, I'm not going to point fingers too much.
It's been one year and it's an awful lot of money.
And it's an awful lot of organizing and coordinating that has to happen to start getting those funds dispersed to where they need to be.
I think some of the institutional parts have actually gone okay.
Right.
To designate certain institutions that are responsible for distributing funds to set up certain institutional functional portions.
But then the money itself is still really the barrier.
And I remember there were there is the diplomat.
I think it was from India last year who was talking about just the total inadequacy of the amount of money.
I think there was another diplomat from I want to say it was Kenya.
I remember reading the comments last year that said you know this very bluntly we know, the money is there.
We know it's not a case of not having enough money in the developed countries to meet these needs, to meet these pledges.
There has to be a step where they actually take pledge, where they actually commit the funds.
And right now, that seems to be the major bottleneck.
Now, of course, that's the low-level bottleneck.
Is there a larger-level bottleneck?
Are we missing... leadership by example?
Are we missing an organizing force that might be willing to push it forward?
Certainly we've seen some leadership from some countries.
I think Germany has proven itself to be a real leader by action.
But Germany is maybe just one country, and their overall contribution is going to be limited.
Overall, we need more leading by action, and that seems to me like the real bottleneck right now.
Not enough leadership by action.
Well Changhua, speaking of leadership in action at this year's COP30, Brazil has launched first this unprecedented initiative, TFFF the Tropical Forest Forever Fund, which aims to raise and invest 125 billion from a range of sources.
On top of that, it has also released a key document, the Baku to Berlin Roadmap, with the goal to meet the 13 trillion annual climate finance target for developing countries by 2035.
So what's your assessment of these two initiatives?
How has it found support at COP30?
Sure.
First of all, I really want to congratulate the Brazilian COP presidency for really taking the leadership and driving the agenda.
And, as you mentioned earlier on, President Lula pretty much defined this COP as an implementation COP and you know, as the two initiatives we just mentioned are pretty much representing how they are delivering on their commitment at this moment as the corporate president presidency.
Now back to the two initiatives.
When it comes down to implementation we, we all know there are a few things actually really significant at this moment, you know, being discussed at the COP at this moment.
One is really the NDCs, because we do need each and every country to put together their action plans for the coming 10 years.
And on one side from those NDCs we'll be able to know What countries would like to do and how quickly actually they want to advance the transition or fighting climate change.
And, very importantly, put all the things together in the context of Paris Agreement goal, actually this sort of a warming goal 2 degrees Celsius, or ideally below 15 degrees there.
So we'll be able to have more clarity on that.
But also it's very important in terms of mobilizing resources.
We cannot, of course, we can say $1.3 trillion.
So it's not just you know, put on the paper the numbers with all the zeros you know behind it afterwards, but very important that we say okay, you know with those actions, we know sort of, you know what, how much money is needed and, very importantly, how to mobilize the financing, from what sort of sources, what kind of financial instrument, the products, and then, very importantly, how to you know get the money together, invest the money, give out the money, make sure they deliver what they could.
Now, the two initiatives, the first one is really about the forest, right?
It's called the Tropical Forests Forever Fund there.
There are a few things actually really significant at this moment.
One.
It is another initiative putting together financing initiative or platform as one of the many vehicles actually to mobilize more financial resources literally to invest in climate solutions there.
And secondly, it's really literally putting nature at the heart of the agenda because we now with scientific knowledge, you know, with all the assessments more, you know urgently than ever, we recognize how important nature is in this particular case.
Actually, we started to talk about, you know the the, the valuation of the standing forest and the services, the products they provide, actually not only economically but also actually for you know climate, you know carbon sink and other functions there.
So it's a sort of very interesting mechanism put together.
Hopefully somehow, as you said, they put the numbers together, targets together on the spot.
I haven't seen the most recent number.
The last time I saw this event was 5.5 billion dollars to start with.
And then if you look deeper into that sort of money, it's not just the public money.
Of course, the Brazilian government put some money in it and some other governments, actually governments and put the money in.
This is a public money, but a very important is going to be a very interesting innovation vehicle to figure out actually how to use the public financing to mobilize actually incentivize, mobilize more private sector money and from other sources, including multinational development banks, right.
And so I think it's going to be really important innovation vehicle to make the case that you know, in order to mobilize enough financial resources and we do need to somehow to come together and figure out how to do that.
Now The second, the Baku to Balan part.
Actually, I think early on David was already sort of on it there.
It was, you know, cheered up as a sort of a landmark for COP 29 last year at least.
Actually, global community agreed last year at the end of the Baku COP basically saying yeah, this is the amount of money, quantity you know, we call it quantity, how much money we need.
So we sort of agreed upon that.
And also about equality, you know, what kind of money, you know, in what format.
And they also put you know, agreed upon.
The access issue put together a transparency issue and also, of course, the sources issue there as well.
At this very moment actually, which is an important part of the agenda for COP 30 is really for international community to come together to agree with something called how do we operationalize Right?
What are the frameworks?
So the second document you mentioned is just really playing that kind of role in that process.
David mentioned.
Actually it's not just yeah, you put a number of the money.
You know someone put the money.
You spend it to run the.
This is the international process.
You do need to put together the operational frameworks really addressing, for instance, the rules, transparency measures, accountability mechanisms all different dimensions there in order for such a climate financing mechanism actually to play its dual role in the process.
With that as the first step, hopefully somehow down the road we'll be able to honor that sort of the rules agreement and really get the effort to go and get more money on the table into the mechanism and hopefully somehow delivering the 13 trillion every year by 2035.
Actually Changhua just mentioned about this very important factor.
The nationally determined contributions NDCs is one of the critical issues at this year's COP30 to limit global warming to 15 degrees Celsius.
60% reduction in emissions is required by 2030.
But we know the current NDCs are on track to achieve only about 10% of that target.
And if we look around, only 64 countries out of 196 countries have submitted their updated NDCs by September.
So why do you think countries are struggling to meet their climate targets?
And what do they need in terms of support and resources to reach these goals?
I mean, other than the finance part?
Well, I believe countries struggle to meet their climate targets because there is a clear gap between ambition and their real capacity to implement those goals.
Many states face structural barriers.
One of them is the limited funding what we are talking here now and also restricted access to affordable clean technologies and also economies that still heavily depends on fossil fuels.
In addition to that, I also think that there is a political challenge once.
Climate actions requires long-term continuity.
But governments change and their priorities always shift, making implementation slow or uneven.
Plus, I believe a fact that is often overlooked is but has a real impact is the impact of wars.
Conflicts like those in Ukraine or Gaza generate significant emissions through explosions, fires and the destruction of energy and industrial infrastructure.
This effect is also fueling the budgetary, which means countries.
They divert resources from the energy transition and adaptation efforts to defense, to security, and like this, reducing their ability to meet environmental goals.
So I would argue that, in order to move forward, Countries need to find political stability and also strengthen three key areas which are predictable long-term climate finance, meaningful technology transfer and also a stronger institutional capacity within government.
Because, see, the issue is not a lack of intention.
There is a lot of intention, but it's a lack of means aggravated by global instability.
And that's why different sectors like finance technology, peace and governments are at the center of the cup 30 for us to find better solutions even facing this challenge.
Speaking of delivering its NDC commitments, Brazil is performing quite well compared to many developing countries Yasmin, so what specific policy measures is Brazil using to implement this NDCs?
And which of these measures could serve as a model or examples for other Latin American countries looking to strengthen their own climate action plans?
Like Brazil is implementing its NDC through a combination between regulatory, environmental and economic measures.
So one of the most important is the plan for deforestation control in the Amazon, which has significantly reduced forest loss over the past two years.
Since land use change is Brazil's largest source of emissions, controlling deforestation is totally the backbone of its entire NDC strategy.
In other ways.
The country is also expanding renewable energy, especially wind and solar, and reinforcing the national biofuel strategy program includes ethanol and biodiesel.
Another element that we can mention is the ecological transitional plan, which introduces green industry incentives, carbon pricing instruments and infrastructure for low-carbon technologies.
These policies aim to align climate goals with economic development.
It's the two main areas that the government is working right now.
And regarding what models other Latin American countries can take for us.
I believe that first, the focus on combating deforestation while protecting indigenous territories because, as I said, land use emissions are central across the region.
And second, Brazil's efforts to integrate climate policy with green industrial development, showing that ecological action can be economically strategic, not only regulatory.
I mean.
Brazil is far from perfect, you know, but some of its structural policies, especially forest governments and the ecological transitional agenda, offers concrete lessons for neighbors countries and also our willing to make it happen.
I think that there is a will, there is a way, and this is also a good way for them to get as a model.
I've been speaking with Wu Changhua, president of the Global Climate Academy and chair of the governing council at the Asia-Pacific Water Forum.
Yasmin Skelly, independent journalist from Brazil specializing in international relations, and David Fishman, principal at the Lantau Group.
Let's take a short break.
When we return, we will delve into the role of Global South and China in fighting climate change.
Stay with us.
Hello, my name is Alessandro Golombievski Teixeira.
I'm a professor of public policy management at Tsinghua University in Beijing.
I am a great listener of The Wall Today.
In my opinion, The Wall Today is one of the best China radio programs.
In the world today, we can get the best news and analysis in what is happening now in the world.
So please, come to join us.
Welcome back to World Today.
I'm Xu Yawen.
Let's continue our discussion.
Now let's shift gears to discuss the role of the Global South and China in fighting the climate crisis.
David at the ongoing COP30, the UN Climate Talks, President Andrew Correa-Delago made the headline remarks and he says, here I quote rich countries have lost enthusiasm for combating the climate crisis, while China is surging ahead in producing and using clean energy equipment.
He also said that more countries should follow China's lead rather than complaining about competition.
What's your take on his remarks?
And do you agree with that the rich countries are less engaged in climate issues?
Yeah, I mean to a certain extent.
There are some obvious examples of rich countries that have completely abandoned or appear to be running in the opposite direction from their climate goals right now.
I think the U.S. is a pretty obvious example.
I think we see some better performance throughout Europe, a little bit more commitment to the mission, so to speak, in Europe.
And then we talk about leadership.
Now obviously, China's in deeds, in actions, in terms of installing renewable energy capacity, in terms of making those technologies available at a very attractive price around the globe.
We have to give props to China as a leader in action.
I think there's something to point out here though, is that, despite China's lead in action, It's not seemingly very willing to become yet a leader politically in terms of pushing for certain positions, in terms of asking other countries to do more or asking them to stick to their commitments.
China remains, as it usually is, very focused on China and what is good for China.
And of course, China is a very large developing nation that has a lot of things to pay attention to for itself.
So China's leadership role has primarily been in terms of demonstrating a way to achieve its own domestic goals.
And providing an example of how to do that, and getting closer to your international commitments, while not quite stepping up to that role where you start to actively coordinate and request behaviors from other countries.
And that has been kind of the traditional role when it suits it the United States in the past.
As the United States steps away from that role and many international roles really,
And China remains also not so sure that it's ready to step into that political void.
We do start to look to well.
Of course, this year we look to Brazil to provide a little bit more leadership and stability as the host country.
And we look to the European nations.
I guess the EU in aggregate provide that type of international coordination and leadership role.
But I do hope there's a day in the future, a year in the future and maybe it's this year, maybe it's the coming years where China begins to play more of a leadership role, not just in actions for itself, but also in the political aspect.
Changhua, what's your take on David's remark?
He said China is a leader in action when it comes to its domestic affairs, in fighting climate action, but it's not stepping up and to request other countries to fulfill their goals, like what the US has done in the past.
I probably have to disagree a little bit actually with David at this moment.
A few things actually.
One, on the negotiation in multilateral process, China has always been taking its own position.
It's not just on itself.
Actually, G77 plus China has always been the lead pack.
You know, in the international process, I attended many, many COPs.
So I've been sort of a unit to know it in a way.
So this is the first point, actually.
So when we say leadership, it's not to say leadership, but you have to define it.
So what does that mean, the leadership?
What kind of leadership actually uh, you know it's expected or what kind of leadership role china wants to play.
I think there are many dimensions to define that.
Secondly, a second disagreement point actually, china has not been only doing its own thing.
Actually, if you look at china's south south climate partnership platforms and putting a global climate finance contest there,
China has been and investing more and more actually in other developing countries in the climate space.
I think, if I remember the numbers, I think there's about 13 billion already and with more than 85 projects, countries actually benefiting from China's renewable energy, China literally providing the affordable clean energy products, actually services to those countries.
In the meantime really providing capacity building, for I think there are more than 500 actually training sessions already organized.
So that's the sort of the second dimension.
I sort of disagree.
Third dimension is really about the role of the US.
Yes, of course, you know, U.S. has been a strong voice in the international process.
So now today actually, I think people started to reflect in terms of what the role US had played there.
That's not the leadership the international community really needed.
So you cannot just talk about things, pointing fingers, stuff like that.
Comparatively speaking, China's role, China's behavior, China's track record has made a very strong point in the leadership.
And the leadership is not say China, say I want, I'm a leader, but rather it's other.
You know it's reflected in other people's sort of views.
You know, the leadership is not that China said I am a leader, but rather that's why actually, the Brazilian corporate presidency said something that's more meaningful.
They are saying that you know it's not out of nowhere, but rather with the data, with the facts, with the cases, with the facts.
Basically.
In many ways actually, the Global Committee was literally saying you know China's steadfast endeavor in advancing climate mitigation, you know investing in clean energy, you know not only benefiting itself but globally.
That has literally sort of saved the Paris Agreement.
Because 10 years ago, when I was in Paris, literally on site, and even though it was agreed, in the end we celebrate the success of Paris Agreement.
But back then, most people had no idea in terms of how far we could go.
So in the last 10 years in particular, it's China that has made the case.
By doing it, investing in it, leading global investment.
Industrial transformation, renewable energy mobility, you name it.
And that's why today we should have more confidence actually in terms of solutions in my, you know, professional circle.
Basically, the way we look at there are solutions literally actually available today to address those issues we're talking about here.
It's really the political will whether political leaders and the countries will be able somehow to take that step forward.
Of course, that's a complicated situation because geopolitical political, whatever you name it, that's where the issues are.
So China's leadership, as I said, I see China as a leader is not because it's said it's a leader or not, because it's a sort of pointing fingers at the global platforms.
Basically, you should do more, you should do that, but rather doing it, being member of it and acting together with others to advance the agenda.
Because to be fair, China has its own challenges domestically as well.
It's not easy.
It's not like China has the magic wand, actually.
So, yeah, we have all the solutions there.
China is a large country.
It's the second largest economy.
And we have so many challenges China still needs to figure out.
Generally speaking, if you look at not only the current Paris Agreement commitment to 2030, the way we delivered, and then looking into 2030, China's NDC is there.
Everyone knows for sure China will continue to be on this track of transition and will continue to do so and will deliver the said commitments actually into those NDCs.
Let's see what China has done rather than what China has said.
Yasmin, I want to hear your thoughts on this.
How does Brazil, a fellow developing country and a key climate actor, view China's climate action?
Well, I agree with our friend Wu, and especially because I can see this in my country.
The partnership between China and Brazil in the environment.
Goals are just very like going up and we can do this transformation in my country exactly because of this leadership of Chinese product.
I can say that we are observing is that developing nations generally view China's climate response in a positive light, and Brazil is definitely an example of that.
I was going to refer precisely to the Ambassador Andrea Corrêa do Lago's remarks.
As you said before, he highlighted that the shift now that we are seeing between the global north enthusiasm, less enthusiasm and the global south, more engaged to environment issues.
When he did this remark, he pointed out that China, in particular, has moved forward, And he also emphasized that China is creating solutions for everyone, not just for itself, particularly by making renewable technologies like solar panels a lot of solo opinions in Brazil which are both accessible and affordable.
And he even argued that more countries should follow China's example rather than complain about competition.
In Brazil, Brazil-China cooperation reflects this dynamic.
The two countries.
Recently I believe it was last week announced 1 billion bilateral funds dedicated to sustainable development, with a strong focus on the green energy transition.
And there is much more room for this partnership, which is constantly progressing.
And I would say that other developing nations share this perception.
You see the New York Times in this week they did an article that highlighted that when they say that a wave of green technology emerging from China is reshaping global climate policy.
Noting how affordable Chinese solar, wind and electric vehicles technologies are accelerating climate action in countries like India Vietnam Ethiopia, Nepal.
It's a very big article, very interesting to read.
So when China also makes carbon peaking and carbon neutrality a national strategy, it not only shapes its own pathway, but also expands what many developing countries can realistically achieve.
And that influence is significant for global sustainability efforts, I believe.
David speaking of China's journey to a low carbon economy from a market perspective.
How did the country manage to achieve both these climate goals and economic growth?
Well, in order to get to the point where one isn't a sacrifice for the other.
And that's where China's at.
China has achieved as of twenty twenty five.
But we can safely say that it's not just that you're avoiding a sacrifice to the economy by putting your energy transition in place.
It's in fact, economic performance is being driven by the energy transition that you can say maybe one or two percentage points of GDP growth or even more. directly connected to building out clean tech infrastructure are related to the new economic sectors, right?
So that they're actually going hand in hand.
And this is something that globally, I would say, is truly very, very unique, in that we're not talking about a fully developed country, a wealthy nation where their power consumption needs rise just 1 year on year.
We're talking about China, where power consumption needs are rising 5% or 6% year on year.
And yet, despite that incredible growth, still we're able to build enough wind water, solar and nuclear to meet 100 of all of that new demand right.
So we're at the point where you can say we can keep growing as much as we like.
We can keep using more energy more electricity that we need for industry, that we need for the service sector, that we need for households that are getting wealthier.
Use as much as you like.
Don't worry about it.
You're not going to ask for any more from the global carbon budget, which we know is already almost exhausted, because we're able to meet all that growth with low carbon sources.
That is a tremendously uh promising blueprint for the rest of the world, where you get to say i'm no longer telling you, you're not allowed to develop, i'm sorry, there's no more room in the fossil fuels budget, there's no more room in the carbon budget, you're not allowed to use fossil fuels, you must stay in energy poverty.
Instead, we're saying look, we've got a different model where you can continue to grow, continue to experience more energy abundance for your citizens, but also not sacrifice the climate.
And so that's really the great lesson that I hope is being seen that there is a pathway to abundance that doesn't involve sacrifice for your own citizens, that allows your citizens to get to what we would consider a just or equitable level of energy consumption globally.
And in this regard yeah, I will have to agree with Wu Changha before about how this is truly a real leadership.
I would consider this to be leadership by action, by providing a blueprint that you can follow.
I do hope when it comes to talking about things like NDCs, you know, I work in the energy sector.
And I get asked, oh, what do you think about China's NDCs?
And I respond to say well, you know, they're a little bit modest, but they're probably under-promising and they're going to over-deliver.
That's been the phrase, right?
Under-promise, over-deliver.
China does things, they... set modest expectations, and then they do more than that.
That's great.
I hope that keeps happening.
But I do wish that we could just set stronger promises at the beginning.
So that's, you know, that's kind of my response a little bit to Wu previously.
Changhua, so let me come to you now.
There are comments suggesting that China has exceeded, or is on track to exceed, most of the pledges it made 10 years ago, therefore playing a critical role in saving the Paris Agreement.
And in this context, the Global South is taking the lead rather than develop the countries.
What's your take on this kind of remarks?
Well, first of all, thank you, David, for further following up.
So now we are pretty much aligned there.
So you know, it's definitely very positive in a way that China's endeavor is well recognized by not only people here domestically, but also more globally.
That's really fascinating to see the shift actually at this moment there.
Back to your question, I think the way we look at China and its global role there, I think China has developed or written its own playbook in many, many ways.
Meaning.
You know, if you look at the last four decades or so, you started to see clearly the pathway.
You know China has traveled actually so far.
We started with in the 1990s, actually, and the 80s, 90s, we pretty much were delivering, say, you know, address everyone's access to electricity. right mobility access whatever stuff like that so when you build laid out the infrastructure you know in together you provided sort of access for people provide the mobility for people so they will be able to really have a chance to grow to develop and to become very important part of the main marketplace there right and then of course getting into this you know the first the 2000s and 2010s there we witnessed actually china's endeavor in terms of really accelerating you know re-industrialization and re-industrialization Why?
Because we need to create the jobs.
We started to embrace with global community, global markets, globalize in many, many ways.
And so we provide not only the infrastructure, but also started to build up the industrial capability.
If you look at today and China's industrial landscape there on this planet, literally China has the most complex industrial landscape there and capabilities there in terms of manufacturing stuff like that.
What does that mean?
In that context there, when the country decided actually to embrace a clean energy transition and more advanced technologies there.
So they also have the capability to manufacturing, to turn technologies actually into product and services and then deploy them in reality.
Right, and so you started to see this sort of the pathway china traveled actually in that process.
Of course, now we, and you know at this point of time we do need to address the decarbonization issue, you know, and also climate, you know adaptations there.
That's where we stand today.
So, in a nutshell, I think China, on one way, has already written its own playbook over the decades.
And today China is already also is rewriting a new playbook.
I think David mentioned about this growth agenda.
In China.
Actually, in 2024, 10 of China's GDP already came from clean industry, clean technology, clean energy sector already.
If you look at the GDP growth last year, 26 of China's GDP growth came from clean energy, clean technology sort of the industry landscape there already.
What does that mean?
That means that China today is already standing on a different page in terms of we are not just simply yes, we do need to address environmental constraints.
You know carbon issues there.
But very, very importantly, we need to figure out actually how to fundamentally transition, shift our economy, our industry, our infrastructure, the products, services there.
So today, i think, from the global community, that's pretty much the case to study right.
I'm not saying every country can do exactly the same thing, but china has made its own case of success and transition in that process.
Of course then, we are also being very actively being part of the international climate governance there.
That's why we've been setting the paris agreement agenda like, if you look at the 2030 agenda, we're sort of five more years to go.
We are pretty much overachieving most of the agenda, including renewable energy, including energy intensity, carbon intensity, forest coverage you name it there.
And now we already set the 2035 agenda there.
Of course we could argue whether it's ambitious enough or it's not ambitious, whatever the reason, but the pathway, The roadmap, is very, very clear.
China is stepping up efforts and build upon its current learning and experiences and then moving forward.
And so for sure, I think China will be able to deliver 2035 agenda at least actually in DCs.
Because, as one-third of global emissions sort of sources there, China's way, the pace, the capability to bend down the emissions curve as much as possible, as deep, as deep as possible that's going to be a very critical part for the global climate solutions there.
So not only to china itself but very importantly, global community need to come in together to work together rather than going different ways, blaming each other, whatever stuff like that.
So that's more urgently needed than never for this coming decade, for the next 10 years.
But Changhua, with ongoing conflicts like the war in Ukraine and tensions in the Middle East, as well as the rise of populist governments, including the United States, is disengaging from climate action.
International climate cooperation has become more challenging than ever.
So how can climate conferences like COP30 help promote cooperation on climate?
And how confident are you that humanity can tackle the climate crisis in time?
I think everyone, you know, go to COP, I think that's universally, that's the voice.
People are basically, you know, opinion or position, people are saying that.
In reality, I'm not that optimistic at all.
And because those conflicts there, they are human made.
That's for sure.
That's human decisions there.
Somehow.
In reality, that's not something that we can address in all those issues at the COP climate, COP at all.
That's the harsh reality we are dealing with.
On one side, we do need to continue to voice our opinions, our positions, our ambitions there.
But in the meantime it takes much, much more endeavour, efforts actually for countries, for political leaders to address that.
As I said, I don't think that's going to be addressed at the global level.
Now, looking into the bottom up part and the countries need to develop.
And China said it's a good example in terms of clean energy transition.
So look at the ground level.
There are still many other countries besides the hotspots, you know conflict zones there.
The rest of the world actually are pretty much sort of willing.
People are desiring actually to transform, to have a better livelihood, better opportunities.
Clean air, clean water uh, you know brush, you know based more forest or whatever stuff like that.
So somehow uh, and when i said i don't think we can address those conflicts, but in the meantime you look at the other majority actually on this planet as a humanity.
Somehow you started to started to get some more, maybe more, signs of hope in a way, And as it demonstrates in the current, you know the ongoing Balaam Cup, you know indigenous people coming, you know, into this picture, getting more involved NGOs youths, you know all this is sort of really the grassroots part actually getting together.
You can look at the U.S.
Yes.
Basically, US next month will be officially withdrawing from Paris agreement.
You do not see federal level government leaders there at all, but there are many state levels.
You know the the california governor newsom, i think he also committed some.
Yeah, he also commented, actually very positively, about what china has achieved.
What rose china, what kind of role model china needs to.
You know, global community needs to look into china, stuff like that.
So yeah, i mean like yeah, it's a complicated picture, but there are always signs of hope.
That's where I think we need to.
You know, the rest of the world need to hold on together.
And in that context actually figuring out how to work more collaboratively, more constructively together.
Yasmin, as we look to the future, the clear message of COVID-19 is that we need to act now, with implementation at the heart of the summit discussions.
So, in your view, how do we ensure that the COP30 delivers real solutions rather than just more promises?
Yes, this question is highly relevant because we no longer need to be experts to recognize that the world is warming.
We feel it in our daily lives and we really need to act now.
That's why the first step for COP30 to deliver concrete results it's actually what we were saying right now is to confront misinformation and the waves of climate denial that try to downplay the crisis, a crisis that is for real.
I believe that on the environmental agenda, Even if countries disagree in other areas, we must join hands and stay aligned, because this is a matter of collective survival.
As a second point is precisely that, implementation.
Brazil has consistently emphasized that this addition should not simply announce new targets, but consolidate and deepen what has already been agreed upon, especially under the Paris Agreement.
This means leaving Belém with operational plans, with timelines, financial roads and monetary mechanisms, ensuring that the progress is clear and results are real.
But, if I may say, I also believe that there is a social dimension that cannot be ignored, because climate actions requires awareness at both the micro and the micro levels.
On the micro level in everyday life.
On the micro level, like the billionaires, must acknowledge their responsibility as well.
See in 2022.
An Oxfam study showed that the lifestyle and the investment of a billionaire can emit up to one million times more greenhouse gases than those of an average person.
So this makes clear that climate transformation does not depend solely on governments and diplomats, but also on individual choice and, above all, on the decisions of those who concentrate capital and influence.
From my point of view, ensuring real results for long-standing forums like the COP means combining science, political will and shared responsibility.
Once the planet is our common home, there is no outside.
So everything stays here and every action matters.
That's what I think.
David, so how optimistic are you that COP30 will deliver real tangible results?
And looking ahead.
What's the future of global climate policy if the US and some other developed nations remain absent or less engaged?
Yeah look, I think where I'm at right now is broadly similar to the overall attitude, which is maybe not so pessimistic but also not so optimistic, kind of just wait and see what happens.
It has seemed like the last few COPs have not been so – we had some achievements, we had some good statements, some good progress, but always it felt like there was that statement of well, but there could have been more.
Maybe there should have been more.
It was good progress, but it wasn't enough.
And if that's the attitude that we've established already so far, going into it, it seems like that will be a similar attitude.
But let me give you the positive version, right?
Like, how would it end up being better than that?
How would my negative attitude end up being incorrect?
Yeah, we would have to see a much stronger statement.
From global South nations.
We would have to see consistent support, and even increasing of that support from Europe, that the absence of the United States at the federal level
Of course, it's great that California is there.
It's great that other state leaders are there.
But the average absence of the United States at the federal level needs to be made up with even stronger commitments from the other attendees.
And I am crossing my fingers that we'll see that, that we'll see a stepping into the void.
If we say it's leadership, or we just say like a collective effort that manages to make up for those that are that are not really fulfilling the responsibilities right now and long term, it's not like we have to believe.
But the China and the global south will step up, because if, if you don't, then we can't possibly succeed.
Right.
We have we have an awful lot of work to do.
So we have to believe.
And so I think it will happen, because it is necessary for it to happen, that there will be a stepping up and a greater, stronger role played there among Global South and developing nations.
With that, we're wrapping up today's program.
I've been speaking with Wu Changhua, President of the Global Climate Academy and Chair of the Governing Council at the Asia-Pacific Water Forum.
Yasmin Scali, independent journalist from Brazil specializing in international relations, and David Fishman, principal at the Lantau Group.
To listen to this episode again or catch up on previous episodes, you can download our podcast by searching World Today.
For further discussion, you can follow us on X at CGTN Radio.
Thank you so much for listening.
Bye for now.
