Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself He Young.
I'm joined by Yuxin and Josh Carterel in the studio.
Coming up, conscious unbossing is emerging as the new career mantra for Gen Z in both America and China.
It defies conventional career wisdom.
young employees are actively shying away from promotions.
What's behind this shift in the mindset and join us to explore the values driving this change.
We also have this topic lined up for you.
From meme to mainstream.
When did background noise become the soundtrack of our lives?
For more than a decade, we've witnessed the rise and fall of so many viral internet songs, the latest being 可究了.
These songs weren't made to last but for a moment they are everywhere, from short videos to prime time TV.
Are they redefining what makes a hit or just riding the wave of our ever shortening attention spans?
Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcast. From the world of entertainment to what fuels your passion, And our Heart to Heart segment is all about you.
Share your thoughts with us at RoundtablePodcast .QQ .com or better yet record a voice memo.
We'd love to hear your voice and have it featured in our special segment.
Now let's move on to the next part of discussion today.
The old saying goes, a good soldier wants to be a general.
But today's Gen Z might say only if it's worth it, by the way.
Gen Z, or Generation Z, refers to those born between 1997 and 2012, which means the oldest Gen Zers are now around 28 years old.
Recent surveys have found, while nearly a quarter of Chinese Gen Z hesitate on management promotions due to pay and pressure, their American peers are 1 .7 times more likely than older generations to avoid management roles for the reason to protect their mental health.
What does this mean for the future of corporate leadership?
Could you guys go through the details of the surveys and what stood out to you when it comes to turning down promotions?
This is so beyond me.
Yeah. And maybe we will discuss why later.
but recently Chinese recruitment portal 51 job conducted a survey on young people's attitudes towards promotion.
77 % responded saying that they hope to be promoted to management positions, while 23 % chose depending on situation, need, considering salary, and work pressure.
This means that promotion is no longer an unconditional acceptance option, but a trade -off between multiple factors such as salary, pressure, and also growth potential.
And internationally, there is a kind of similar trend.
One is the one that you mentioned, Huiyuan, the U .S. study by the U .S. management consulting company Development Dimensions International, And it shows that Gen -Z is, as you said, 1 .7 times more likely than previous generations to avoid management roles to protect their wellbeing.
And also a survey by Korean online recruitment platform JOBkorea shows that more than half of millennial and Gen -Z office workers say they have no ambition to halt executive positions.
This is interesting.
and the term conscious embossing actually came from the u .s. in China we haven't found a direct translation kind of term but the workplace trend is there and as a young person yourself Josh oh wow still I guess so of course you're I'm a few years out of Gen Z but you're a young millennial and young millennial.
What do you think about this phenomenon of people shying away from so -called leadership roles?
I think that Gen Z have grown up watching Millennials burn out and hate corporate life and be stung by the housing market, student debt and all of these things, and I think climbing the ladder isn't as glamorous as it used to be.
That's my opinion. I don't think, and now, because of things like social media, where people are more willing to voice their concerns and do so through things like memes and viral videos and such. It's funny, but it's actually very powerful.
And I think that a lot of criticisms of modern day work -life balance and work culture come through in things like memes.
And what's better than just enjoying your life?
And what's the point in climbing the ladder if you're going to burn out?
Like millennials have been doing so.
Do you agree? young as a fellow millennial?
Yeah, I think it's extremely unfortunate when you look at your boss who's usually a little bit, a few years older than you, and you hate his or her life.
What kind of example does that set for young people?
But this is also interesting because if I asked maybe my parents' generation of predecessors, they might say, sure, there's pressure, there's always pressure, you suck it up, you want more pay, you want better living standards, you want your family if you have one to, you want to provide, and that's what makes us buckle up and walk out that door every morning to this thing that, do you love it?
No you don't, but you kind of just, just suck it up.
And I wonder, what do you say to that kind of pretty, you can call it old school, but pretty standard, and in a way it's it's not uplifting per se and it's not encouraging per se, but that's how people used to do it.
What do you think Gen Z representative?
Okay, yeah, when I was reading this topic I can totally resonate and relate to a lot of these mindset, I would say And through these surveys we can see a lot of them are saying that they feel the salary increase is limited Of course we know that if you got promoted, you'll have a different job title.
Mostly upgraded job title, mostly higher salary, but a lot of Gen Z 'ers I think they're not worth the added responsibilities.
You need to of course, having more salary, and you have higher, greater responsibilities, maybe you need to even manage the whole team.
And that could be leading to you need to be on call 24x7, which is totally not the lifestyle that you would like to have. And another thing is that, you know, one stat is that 24 % of people prefer to focus on developing their personal skills rather than just taking administrative roles.
Yes, I was thinking when you actually become part of the management team, the skills you need may, you know, like belong to a completely different category or system.
It might no longer be the kind of work that you're familiar with because where these kind of things are only professional expertise that you required previously, but instead it may be more about just coordination or communication or leadership and management and so on and that I don't I'm not I don't but a lot of Students or not.
So sorry young people young people they maybe just trying to focus on their own personal growth but not trying to manage a group of people.
Interesting, you said personal skills.
What do you mean by that?
Is it like, I should not use us as examples, let's say you are a lawyer and you are developing your skill as to become a musician maybe one day.
Is that what you mean by personal skills?
Is it like a completely unrelated side hustle?
I know a lot of people are kind of doing that as well, but sort of pursuing your passion on the side.
I don't think that way, but similarly it's more like when you are a lawyer, and you are trying to develop your personal skills into maybe having more understanding on the laws or having better skills on debating or kind of thing to be a better lawyer, but not to be a musician, that unrelated thing.
But let's say if you are becoming a like co -founder of a law firm, then you may be like focusing on more like doing the whole business thing rather than just being a lawyer.
I think that maybe what's connected to this or synonymous with personal skills, whatever that means, I think valuing autonomy over authority.
So whatever that means, and I think that these days, especially since we've had a lot more hybrid working systems come into play in a lot of countries, maybe three days in the office, I've got a lot of friends that now in London, they only go in once or twice a week to the office and they completely work from home now.
It's sort of stayed like that.
And I think that there is a much greater emphasis on autonomy or ways to be autonomous.
Right. And you can do, you know, side gigs and stuff like this, and I think that this is very appealing to Gen Z because on top of that, what that results in, what greater autonomy results in is probably better mental health, you know?
Yeah. And I think that, whereas before mental health wasn't valued as much, I actually found that in the UK last year, stress -related sick days hit record highs among workers under 30, especially under high pressure roles, quite obviously.
But still it seems to be that there's a greater focus on mental health with Gen Z Deeply valuing your personal well -being over just climbing the ladder so to speak And I think this is deeply connected to autonomy because when we have more freedom autonomy We have the choice right if you don't feel great that day.
You don't have to get out of bed, right?
Not feeling that not seeing that I I would like that for sure, but also I think you guys touched upon something really interesting here.
You mentioned something about like, is it training or different kind of skills that's asked of you from a managerial role even if it's like really junior level management.
Sometimes when you look at major organizations the layers of so -called management roles is astounding and what a waste of time!
Anyhow, so I think for young people a lot of us grew up seeing that there is a lack of training for leadership development because once you get into a managerial role, you're not asked to do the same professional thing that you used to do.
For example, if I get promoted then I'm not going to be hosting again and then I'll be be managing people which I have zero idea or interest in.
Therefore, I won't get that promotion and I'm stuck here forever.
How do you feel about that, Gen Z?" But also another thing that I don't think necessarily Gen Z is saying no to promotions altogether, they're maybe just saying no to middle management and that often feels like being stuck in the worst of both worlds, squeezed by upper management's demands while juggling pressures from the team below with limited real authority or reward, and Gen Z's know may be less about rejecting leadership entirely.
And I saw in one of these surveys, young people are saying that they they want to become bosses.
They want to start their own companies.
They don't want to be answering to uncharismatic people who don't know what they're doing.
They're not rejecting leadership entirely, and more just rejecting to these trap roles that come with high stress, unclear power and poor work -life balance.
And if there were better and more meaningful, more flexible leadership roles, then maybe they will say, yes.
What do you think young people want here?
And can organizations adjust accordingly so that, yeah, otherwise, where are you gonna look, where are you gonna find the next generation of leaders?
I totally agree. And the point that you said, like, being the kind of middle management positions, a lot of this saying that you're gonna be in an awkward position of pressure from above and also demands from below, that is why, Josh said, autonomy is quite important and significant for a lot of these young people, and they want to, maybe the whole control of their life, and that is why the survey is showing that nearly 40 % of respondents are more inclined to start a business or just become a freelancer such as vlogger, or video, content creator, that kind of thing, shop owners, these roles offer
self -actualization and meet the need for job freedom and personal expression.
Because when we're imagining you become a kind of team manager, you are naturally required to make yourself as the leader or the owner of this kind of group.
But actually, are you really the owner of this group?
No, you have also supervisors as well.
But when you're starting your own business, you are becoming let's say a entrepreneur, right?
You have your own shop that is all about yourself And you are a kind of brand, of this whole thing, of yourself.
And then I think that is why young people can invest everything to that thing, that they actually are enthusiastic about.
So they can call it their own instead of, a manager of something.
Yeah, well, what do you think, Josh?
Yeah, I don't think that Gen Z hate responsibility, or lack ambition in this way.
I just think that there's a new perception on the grind which used to maybe have a bit of a positive connotation, right?
You grind, you work hard, but I think these days it's more the meaningless grind.
You know, it's more spoken about in this way with this tone of voice.
And so I think Gen Z, they need to work in a workplace that really values collaboration from leadership and strong communication to know why you're there, why you're doing this work, because you could just go home and be a digital nomad.
That's, I so envy that mindset.
Me too. Yeah, I don't know if I can get there, but I'm glad that we've got a new generation of young people who think that way.
But do you think, okay, this is maybe me overstepping and worrying too much. Do you think that the organizations, companies out there, they're going to be bereft of Gen Z future leaders, or maybe there's so many people out there, there's bound to be some people who are gonna step into those roles, so what do you think might the impact have on the future of work?
You know, I believe you know this is also related to personality, I think you know some people are just naturally ambitious and enjoy leading while others prefer to just keep exploring and maybe diving deep into a field that they actually love.
In a vast workplace, there will be always like be people who want to be leaders.
So at least for now I don't think this will be a major issue.
I think workplace culture is going to a change.
It's already evolving.
And I think that of course there'll be a time when Gen Z are the older generation.
And I think that the workplace is gonna look very, very different in decades to come.
And I so much look forward to that.
Coming up, Internet earworms often start as throwaway background tracks, but somehow end up dominating playlists and even making their way onto TV variety shows.
If everybody's listening, why does everyone feel entitled to look down on them?
we unpack the paradox of internet earworms right after this break.
Looking for passion?
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Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives?
Then tune in to Roundtable where east meets west and understanding is the goal You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young I'm joined by Yu Xun and Josh Coderell back in the studio with us.
The internet has transformed how we shop, chat with friends, and go about daily life.
It's also completely reshaped how we consume music.
We no longer buy CDs, we stream music, and instead of actively searching for new tracks, we often stumble upon them while scrolling through short videos on platforms such as Douyin and TikTok.
One minute you're That visual dopamine hit and the next a catchy background song grabs your attention and won't let go Love them or hate them viral internet songs those called shenshu start out as memes or throwaway background music then explode across social media and somehow land on primetime music shows one of the most curious examples the internet earworm Kyo Lo Ji or drop tower Some dismiss these tracks as low brown noise others embrace them as guilty pleasures and they're shy to admit in public So let's talk about this Yeah, how come if the click show that everybody's listening then why
did they get all the discs?
I think that has something to do with the platform you know before we started a show we had a brief chat about this song and I think all of us have already listened to this and Hyeoung you mentioned that after listening to the song you didn't find anything particularly special or strange about it just an ordinary ballad right I think that's a reasonable reaction actually because much of the criticism online likely stems from people's preconceived notions about viral songs on short video platforms. There's a tendency to see them as just tacky, or a little cheesy, or a lowbrow and this phenomenon has become
quite common and some songs even if originally, like well -known artists can also become tacky if it is like edited or pitch shifted for short videos.
So, maybe it's about the platform.
Yeah, Josh, I know you make music yourself.
How do you feel about this?
Well, I think that some of these tracks are basically the equivalent of junk food In the sense that that's not necessarily a bad thing because sometimes it's nice to have some junk food But it's addictive and it's bad for you.
Yeah Yeah, and I don't think you know a song needs to be good to go viral It just needs to be memorable.
Yeah, so there's something about this song that's memorable for some reason and there's a lot of data calculation algorithm using and a lot of this stuff going on to make it popular.
Josh, how do you feel about this when maybe some argue that because there are too many Big Macs flooding the market and then we simply don't have the appetite, the taste, or the time, or the penchant for something better?
I still have hope as I've spoken to you about before.
I think that there is still enough people out there that appreciate higher art and music, and I think all of us at some point will get tired of eating junk food and will want to go and explore other things.
Oh that's wonderful, but also have you just accidentally or somehow stepped onto the chain of contempt when it comes to music?
Maybe. Higher? I know, I know it's so difficult to talk about without sounding like that.
And maybe that's just part of human nature?
What do you think? Um, I was thinking, you know short video platforms they are actually becoming one of the even most important platforms or Ways or channels for promoting music actually many like Western pop artists today Also start by sharing their work on these Platforms, right building up a following there and then gradually moving on to releasing singles and full album Thank you so much Josh for joining the show coming back to us.
Thank you Yoo -shoon.
I'm Hae Young. We'll see you next time
