A modern-day warrior, mean, mean stride.
Today's Tom Sawyer, mean, mean pride.
Okay.
Well, if you're listening to the song Tom Sawyer, you know that you are enjoying the Conan and Jordan show.
This is a show, you can't find it anywhere else.
And so far, I'm told people love this show.
It's doing quite well.
And it's growing.
It's growing rapidly because people are fascinated with the relationship between conan o'brien and jordan schlansky.
Uh, how long have we been shooting remotes and things together?
Jordan, you've worked for me for how many years?
Approximately 30 years okay, and uh, we started shooting things, I don't know, like 20 years ago maybe.
15 to 20.
Okay.
I like that you always give a range.
It's really not completely relevant.
I think it is.
I am educating.
Listen, I go anywhere in the world.
I was just in Ireland shooting some stuff for Max.
It used to be called HBO.
And then someone said, no, that name's too cool.
Let's call it Max.
So anyway, I was shooting something for them in Dublin.
And people were coming up to me on the street and saying, where's Jordan?
People all over the world.
Know that you and I have this fraught relationship.
It lives online and now it lives on Sirius XM and I couldn't be happier.
Yeah, that's fascinating to me.
International connection is.
It's a great coming together of humanity from disparate cultures and communities.
And this technology that we find ourselves surrounded with allows this to happen.
And really, it just allows for a deeper human connection.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, if we could cut that, I would.
But I don't know that we have the money to edit.
I'm just going to let it sit there.
Well, you brought up the subject, so I just expanded on it.
Yeah, I brought it up.
Oh, there's no need to expand.
What if you'd been sitting next to Lincoln when he gave the Gettysburg Address?
Four score and seven.
I'd just like to point out, of course, that four score and seven years ago, of course that's a shorthand.
He is referring to the Declaration of Independence.
And, you know, no, Lincoln didn't need someone to expand.
Well, this is a radio show and I do have a microphone in front of me.
So the implication is I'm supposed to speak.
I spent half an hour trying to saw that microphone off its stand because I want to do a radio show with you where you don't have a microphone.
That's what I would like.
Jordan part of our appeal, if we can call it that.
Some of the fascination is that people can tell that my irritation with you is real.
I see.
Do you agree with that?
I mean, there is.
This is not for me to assess.
It's not a bit is what I'm saying.
There's no way I could invent this contentious relationship.
This is not wrestling.
This is real.
You're constantly getting under my skin.
You and I have had many issues over the years.
For a long time, I didn't know what you did on the show.
I'm just being kind, because I still don't know why.
You're working for me um, and you've committed, i think, some crimes.
You know, you've purchased expensive equipment that you yourself used and you charged it to the show.
You came in late for a while.
Uh, you've traveled the world with me.
You're a know-it-all, you've.
I've caught you many times saying the wrong thing and you never back down.
And um, here we are after all these years and i don't feel we've made any progress.
Do you think we're making progress?
I didn't know we were attempting to make progress.
What exactly was the assignment?
I would like us to not fight all the time.
Is that possible?
Well, I mean, we're two men in an incredibly intimate situation.
I think that we explore.
What does that mean?
You're bringing up a sexual connotation now.
Intimacy is not necessarily sexual, although often is.
You and I. Whenever I'm intimate with someone, it quickly becomes sexual.
Mm hmm.
Well, you're intimate with me.
Yeah.
And I'm afraid it's going to get sexual very quickly.
Okay.
I'm already aroused.
I'll be honest with you.
Okay.
I mean, nothing's happened down there in four years.
So this is a huge, huge deal for me.
It's like a zombie waking up after a long sleep.
Jordan, I would like to get along with you.
Okay.
Would you like the same thing?
I think we do get along.
What are you talking about?
All we do is we're two friends.
And I don't think we're friends.
I'm your boss.
You have both of these.
Those are there are barriers.
Well, they're not mutually exclusive concepts.
We are friends.
We are friends.
Yes.
I pay you.
OK.
And I wish you did as I told you to do.
OK.
But yes.
And if that still means we're friends, then yes.
And I dream of firing you.
OK.
But we're still friends.
Are you asking me about these things?
Are you just telling me that you dislike me for real and you dream about terminating my employee?
Do you listen?
I don't know what kind of response you're looking for.
OK, Jordan, let me ask you something and be completely honest with the viewers.
I do have people that say to me, oh, this must be some kind of bit.
This must be some kind of thing that they work out.
We have never worked anything out.
That is absolutely true.
Well, I would like us.
I'm at a stage in my life God knows if I have much time left, and I would like to.
I'd like to make progress.
I'd like to make peace.
And I there are.
I don't know.
There might be 50 hours online of you and I bickering.
That circulates the globe at all times.
And I would like to stop the cycle if I could.
I would like you and I to get along and figure out what is it maybe I'm doing, but mostly what is it you're doing.
Like me, maybe 10%, you 90%.
You're like the iceberg on the Titanic.
Really, you're the one that's at fault.
You're the one that tore the side off my ship.
And now all those women and children, men are going to die.
But anyway, again, your iceberg, mostly your fault.
You struck me, ended up getting hurt in the process.
It was dark.
Right.
It was dark.
Right.
It was very dark.
There was no technology.
Yes, but you knew it would be dark.
It's not a surprise that it was dark.
Darkness happens.
There's day and there's night.
It was a maiden voyage my first time at sea.
And I didn't know that the night came on so darkly in the North Atlantic area.
You fucking iceberg.
You came along and you weren't lying there.
You were, of course, everything floats and moves in a current.
You came hurtling down from the north and you smashed into me.
I was having a good time.
Bowen Yang does a wonderful sketch on this where he's the iceberg and claiming it's not his fault.
Uh, no, it was the iceberg.
I disagree with Bowen Yang.
I understand, from an entitled perspective, you may think you can move through life without worrying about obstacles and just go where you please.
But there are icebergs out there and you do need to navigate them like any other human.
Okay.
My point is you're large and inanimate.
You're frozen to the touch.
I'm a mesomorph.
I'm medium.
What's that?
You're large.
Why do you say I'm large?
I'm tall.
Why do you say I'm large?
I'm a mesomorph.
I'm very average.
I'm medium.
Okay.
Moderate.
I've never heard an iceberg speak so, you know, insanely about their body type.
I think icebergs float around and say I'm a mesomorph.
No, they don't.
The point I'm trying to make is that I have drifted through my career peacefully, with little friction.
I'm a high class operation, beautifully built ship.
And then this lunky piece of ice slammed into me and ruined everything.
So let's fix this.
Are you ready to fix it?
Sure.
I am.
Now, I'd like to introduce Frank Smiley.
Hello.
He's the producer of the Conan and Jordan show.
I have to keep looking to make sure that that's actually the name.
I'm glad my name is first.
Right.
Well, this is a very special episode.
It feels special.
Something's going on here.
By the way, I don't know what's going on.
And you know what I love?
You never know what's going on.
Yes.
We're sitting in different positions.
There's like a hubbub going on.
And I don't know why.
Well, I'll tell you why.
Because today we have two guests.
Okay.
The Gottmans.
Okay.
Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman.
They are the co-founders of the Gottman Institute in Washington.
And they're here to help you.
What they are is world-renowned psychologists.
Yes.
And they work on marriage stability and divorce predictions.
And they're really good at this.
They know how to deal with people who have conflicts.
And they know how to help them with their conflicts.
They also, I'll mention it now.
I'll probably mention it again as a plug.
This has nothing to do with what we're doing, but it actually has everything to do with what we're doing.
They have a book. called Fight Right.
They are such experts.
They've written a book.
It's all about how to fight correctly.
And these are experts.
I mean, these might be the two foremost authorities on fighting conflict resolution partners.
You and I are partners.
We didn't ask to be, but we've been thrust together into this situation.
And I think there's a good chance the Gottmans, do you agree, Frank?
The Gottmans, if anyone can help us, it's the Gottmans.
It's the Gottmans, for sure.
So let's bring them in.
Let's bring them in.
Okay.
Here they come.
Here they come.
Oh, hello there.
How are you?
Do I call you Julie?
You do call me.
Dr. Julie and Dr. John.
I'd stand, but I met you already and my legs don't work.
That's enough.
One standing for you guys was enough.
Do I call you Dr. Julie, Dr. John?
What do you like?
John Julie.
Okay.
All right.
Well, listen, let me start by saying I don't respect what we do in the studio.
And so when people like yourselves, who are real professionals, take time in to come in and help us it's, it's a blessing.
Yeah, it's really nice.
And I'll say that I've never met you two before, but you have the air of incredibly kind people.
There's something there's a vibe that you two have that makes me feel like I've known you for years.
I did not get that.
I did not get that.
I saw them shoot kindness towards you, and what I received was a hostility.
And mixed with indifference.
Let me start by saying thank you very much, Drs.
Gottman, for being here.
You really do know your stuff, and it's thrilling to be in the room with you because...
I'm sitting here with my friend Jordan, and I'd like to start by saying how aware are you of my relationship with Jordan Slansky.
Have you viewed any of the footage?
Yeah, we both have.
Yeah, we have viewed the footage.
We see the problems in the relationship.
We saw that within about three and a half minutes.
And it was obvious that both of you guys were uncomfortable, really uncomfortable.
Yeah.
And it just kept getting worse.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the first thing we want to offer are these two pulse oximeters for you to put on.
Wait a minute.
What are you talking about?
What are you talking about here?
This gentleman, John, just held up two strange devices.
I don't know if those are legal.
I don't know if they're sexual in nature.
They won't shock you.
Okay.
They won't stimulate you.
Oh.
They record your heart rate.
That's what I said to my wife on our wedding night.
This will not shock you or stimulate you.
Sorry, that's terrible.
Oh, this is cool.
Put it on.
I've put this pulsometer on my... I'm sorry, pulse oximeter.
Right.
And tell us what a pulse oximeter does.
So it's looking at your blood.
It's measuring heart rate.
And it's also measuring the percent of oxygen in your blood.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it's set an alarm.
And the alarm is if your percent oxygen goes below 95 or your heart rate goes above 100 beats a minute.
That's around when we start secreting our two stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline.
Cortisol and adrenaline.
And so there'll be...
He's still going.
Well, it beeps, but it gives an alarm.
I'm sorry.
Why is yours going off right away?
Let's see the numbers.
What are the numbers?
99 and 130.
Yep.
What does that mean?
Well, can I point out quickly?
We're not sure he's from Earth.
We don't know.
He may have six Vulcan hearts.
It's funny.
He does look like he comes from Earth.
So what that means is that your heart rate is so high that you're extremely uncomfortable.
You're in a little bit of fight or flight.
Wow.
Right now.
Just right now.
This is fantastic.
Sitting.
Fascinating.
Don't hide it.
Yeah.
Don't hide it.
You are.
You set off that alarm immediately and you're sitting in a chair.
I don't know how this has been calibrated.
I can't verify its accuracy.
It has.
It has.
OK, I accept that.
What it tells us.
See, you guys have already had an interaction, right?
Yeah.
You just had interaction and you sat.
You took it in.
It was critical.
It put you down a lot.
You might have to take that off.
We should take that off for a second because I think listeners listening right now will go insane.
So take yours off just for a moment and for it to allow it to recalibrate.
Yep.
So basically when your heart rate goes over 100 beats a minute, it means you feel attacked.
That's what it means.
And your body is reacting as you would if you were facing a saber tooth tiger.
I see heart rate goes up.
So you know, what would be good to do guys, is if we could just watch you, for you know five minutes or something.
Just talk about a problem you guys haven't solved, whatever it is, we'll just watch and see where we might be able to shift things a little bit.
I understand.
Does that sound okay?
That sounds fantastic.
I'm watching my heart rate is now 93.
It's plummeting.
It says here I'm having a small stroke.
I'm glad you guys laughed.
So these are evolutionary responses designed to protect us against a threat, against a large prehistoric animal that may be attacking us.
Our body reacts in a way that will really ensure survival.
And my reaction to this... animal is is it to in the end to benefit my own survival jordan can i point out something human beings are pack animals yes we need each other we depend on each other and in fact we can't survive unless right unless these things we have it just keeps going off connection and you know it's interesting uh wait conan oh i'm sorry i'm sorry wait wait wait wait wait And the fact that this relationship is not a healthy connection, it doesn't feel good to you, and that's getting highlighted a little bit.
Well, the problem arises when it becomes non-adaptive, which means that it's a chronic elevation.
I see.
If it's there all the time, then it kind of spirals down.
I understand.
And neither one of you then can really ask one another for what you really need.
Right.
And that's part of what we want to help you do.
Now, here's where it gets tricky because you said, I need to ask Jordan for what I really need.
But what if what I really need is for him to shut up?
Okay.
So what you're saying is that that's not a personal need.
What that is, is trying to control his interaction with you.
Yes.
That's what I want to do.
Okay, so flip it on its head.
I'd love to.
I'd love to flip him upside down.
Okay.
That's probably not something Jordan would really enjoy.
Oh, I hadn't thought of that.
Yeah.
And so try saying how he could shine for you.
What could he do right for you?
Very good.
You could work for someone else.
Okay.
In a different profession, maybe in, I think in a different city.
That's something that might make me happy.
Okay.
So let's pause a minute.
So what's it like for you when you hear him say that?
Well, I don't feel like it accurately reflects my work performance.
I think I bring value to my employment.
I think I bring value to your life as a friend and compatriot.
I think, I'd like to think, I'd like to think that your life is of a better quality for having known me.
Yeah.
Maybe that is arrogant in some fashion, but I'd like to think we have a mutually respectful relationship.
I certainly respect you.
You're an extraordinary man.
But can I say something I'd like to just bring up just for the record?
Oh, I'm sorry.
What was it like for you to hear him say, I certainly respect you?
Do you believe him?
Did you guys watch the OJ trial?
A little bit.
Yeah.
I remember thinking.
Is that the parallel?
Yeah.
I think he's a murderer.
And I'm not sure I buy what he's selling.
Do you respect me?
Because here's what I'm going to say.
There's tons of footage of him criticizing. my skin, the shape of my face.
He sometimes more than implies that I've put on a little weight, that I?
He calls me uh, I think he's referred to me as the beast and the monster.
Um, you're presenting this information with no context.
Now, now what is the proper context for that?
Let's be, let's be realistic.
Okay.
We've known each other for decades.
Um, and we work in a very intimate environment, uh, many hours.
We've been through tough times and, um, Good times.
Seen each other grow.
Been there for each other through thick and thin.
I've seen emotional damage.
I've seen physical damage.
What are you talking about?
I've seen injury.
I've seen you concussed.
Yeah.
Yes, I've seen you in your lowest emotional state and your highest emotional state, often within a one hour period.
Yeah.
And and with that intimacy.
With that intimacy because we are human beings and this is not a robotic interaction.
Only an alien keeps saying I'm a human being and not a robot.
Most human beings just what I'm saying is there are going to be ups and downs.
Yes, of course.
I respect you and I think you're a great man.
Are you without injury to me?
Have there been injurious experiences?
Of course there have.
And I accept that as part of the human experience.
We can speak of them if you like.
Jordan went into great detail once doctors about how he thought that I was in great shape, because he reviews all the footage.
And then, well, my monitor is going up now.
And then he said that there was a period of time, like a two-year period, where he thought I gained weight.
And he said, it sickened me to look at you during that period of time.
Did you not say that?
Well, listen, again, we have to present proper context.
Of course I'm concerned about your health and your longevity, both from a practical financial standpoint and also a human relationship standpoint.
If I see you partaking in unhealthy behavior, I'd like to think we're at a stage where I can mention it to you respectfully.
You said there were periods in the late night show when you thought I gained weight, probably in the early 2000s.
Have you got the date?
Yeah, it started at the end of 2001.
It was right after.
And by 2003, you had corrected.
You know what happened is I got married and I was very happy after years and years of trying to find the right partner.
I gave up and married this woman.
No, kidding.
I found my wife very happy and she was cooking me all this great food.
And yeah, I probably put on a little weight.
My face got a little round.
I started to resemble Ted Kennedy in the late 80s.
And Jordan was quite, I see it now.
You have to take that thing off.
It's just going crazy.
It's like a smoke alarm in the towering inferno.
You just need to take that off.
But I see now, because of your help, that you were as a friend, I think.
Rather than just making fun of me, you were telling me, as a friend, something that no one else Jeff Ross isn't going to say you gained a little weight and Paula Davis isn't going to say that.
They're all yes people.
They just, whatever's good.
But you, you were trying to tell me the truth.
Do you respect that?
I do.
So you really appreciate that honesty.
I wish he hadn't said the word grotesque.
And he called me the beast and the monster.
That's a bad way to express concern.
Thank you, John.
I can't confirm that I use that word, but I have no reason to doubt you.
Oh, it's stuck in my mind quite clearly.
When I called you the beast, was I referring to your physical condition, or was I referring to maybe, an emotional attack that you performed on me?
So pause for a minute.
Yes.
Pause.
Yes, doctor.
Okay.
So what I see is you guys slinging insults back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
There was one little piece of appreciation from you, one from you.
You appreciated his honesty.
You said you respected him.
Yeah.
So how does it feel to hear appreciation versus insult?
And be honest about it.
How does it actually feel?
Do you take it in when you hear that appreciation?
Well, I'm going to speak purely as a professional.
It's not as funny.
When we're being really mean to each other, people are laughing.
Right.
When I'm hearing Jordan and appreciating him and he's telling me he respects me, I just see an empty audience and I panic.
You know, I'm not sure that's true because people love you.
And when they see you, there's actually no data on that.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of data on it.
Well, we've looked for it.
How many followers do you guys have?
I don't even know anymore.
Well, if you prefer to speak about injurious behavior, we can.
You've clearly brought up something that bothers you, this comment that I allegedly made.
And I think this is important to review some of the more toxic areas.
Okay.
I'm going to say that you have made fun of the way I sometimes don't get all the hairs on my neck shaved.
Yeah, you know, I'm noticing right now on the right corner of your mouth.
I'm curious.
Above all, scientifically speaking, you two are doctors.
Doctor comes from the Latin docere, or in the ecclesiastical pronunciation, docere.
It actually means to teach, which is perfectly suited to you two.
Right.
I'm just curious scientifically, how does it happen?
Like you have a mirror, you're shaving.
How do you miss such large chunks of hair on the corners of your mouth?
And I'm not trying to insult you.
I know conventionally speaking, it sounds like I am.
I'm really, as a scientist, how does it happen?
I'm just very curious.
I do things quickly.
I'm always in a rush, very type A. I take quick swipes with the razor.
Also, I now predominantly, you know, work in radio.
The lenses here aren't that exact.
My wife, you know, Doesn't get to see me up close too much.
She's grown very distant.
That's not true.
I just threw it in there to see if I could pique your attention.
But I don't think she's getting a good look at my face anymore.
She saw it.
She liked it in 1999.
It was enough.
It was enough.
Thank you.
Thank you, John.
It was more than enough.
And so that's why he is very much into manscaping.
Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
Don't describe him.
Describe you.
So you were doing a beautiful job.
Perfect, perfect, perfect answer.
You didn't go defensive.
You didn't go counterattacking.
You described you.
And that is really, really, really important in terms of having a decent relationship.
You don't describe the other person.
I see.
Because every time you guys do, for the most part, it turns into either criticism or contempt.
And contempt is sulfuric acid for a relationship.
It's when you're criticizing from on high.
Being superior fails.
What else is it?
Not only that for contempt, but it also predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener is going to have in the next four years.
The times of contempt in 15 minutes.
Are you saying that I could make Jordan sick?
Yes.
By putting him down?
Yes.
Well, this is fantastic.
Thank you.
Giving you a weapon?
You just handed, yes.
You are such a rascal.
Well, I am.
That's the nicest way to put it.
Well, the problem is that the person who's contemptuous, that person's immune system also degrades over time.
Right.
So by holding contempt for Jordan, I'm also damaging my own immune system.
I'm lowering its ability to fight infection.
That's right.
So this is this is self-defeating.
This is bad for both.
Can I respectfully ask which I think is constructive if I notice large patches of unshaved hair on your face, would you prefer if I remain silent and don't bring it to your attention?
Like if you walk in and you just have a huge patch of hair maybe on your head.
Adam's apple, for example.
You prefer that I note it internally.
Well, first of all, you're implying that the hair is growing out so much.
I'm just simply asking you.
You're implying the hair is growing out so much I could braid it.
I have seen it.
I have seen such wild growth and in a very specific area.
Can I just say one thing?
High profile area.
I am a very masculine man and I know you're going to stop me in a second and say this isn't relevant Conan, but I would like to say in my own defense I am for a man my age, I think pulsating with testosterone.
I pump out a lot of facial hair very quickly.
I think sometimes that's not my fault.
And for you to attack me for being one of the most masculine men you know is, I think, probably unfair.
Okay.
He wants you to be quiet about it.
Okay, I will be quiet.
I will note it to myself.
I will not mention it to anyone else, nor you.
Well, you also tend to mention it when there are cameras and microphones around.
Wouldn't it be fair to approach me quietly and say, Conan, you have a long tuft.
It looks like a ponytail coming out of four pores to the right of your Adam's apple.
And I will take care.
I'll seek out the proper authority.
So you prefer I pull you aside. maybe before taping.
And bring to your attention your errors, your shaving errors in private.
Okay, pause.
Yes.
Put down.
Oh.
Okay.
Shaving errors.
I mean, it's objectively.
Well, I don't assume his intention was to miss the hair, so I consider it an objective analysis.
Can you read his mind?
I cannot.
He may have intentionally wanted to leave that disgusting, tough hair on his head.
You don't know, right?
Yes, I don't know.
And why does it matter to you?
Why does it matter to you?
It certainly doesn't matter, but I think when there's an elephant in the room, when a man walks in, who's 95 shaved and there's just hair jetting out of his cheek,
I just think it's worth mentioning.
I don't mean any insult.
I don't mean any insult.
It's easily fixable.
It's not a slight on your character.
We all make mistakes.
I make mistakes.
They're not related to large tufts of hair on my face.
But I just think that as human beings we have to acknowledge something so painfully obvious that was somehow missed.
With all your technology, mirrors, you have lighting in your bathroom.
But I'll do as you say and pull you aside and let you know.
I love that you refer to light and the mirror as technology.
Thank you.
Jordan, my personal appearance is one of the things that we have trouble with.
Another thing that we have difficulty with is that Jordan loves to expand, as he did on the phrase doctors.
I find that insulting because you're both doctors.
You're both highly educated.
You're very successful, highly intelligent people.
And then this guy is telling you the Latin root, what it comes from and what it means.
Everywhere we go.
I love it.
Me too.
You like it.
Yeah.
We're always learning.
He taught us something.
Here's the one thing I'm going to say, Julie.
Okay.
If it's okay.
He's often wrong.
The information he told you, I would look it up because there's a 75% chance he's wrong.
He has held forth and expounded on where Karate Kid 2 was filmed, wrong.
The origins of pizza, what you're allowed to drink with pizza.
He said, you don't drink wine with pizza if you're doing it correctly.
He was corrected in Italy by the people making the pizza that, yes, you drink wine with pizza.
He's constantly...
You're wrong.
These are your insults that I didn't know where the Karate Kid 2 was filmed?
Oh, man, that was humiliating.
Right.
And Ralph Macchio, who played the Karate Kid.
Ralph Macchio.
It's Macchio.
In fact, the C-H makes a hard C sound like Pinocchio.
Okay, pause.
Pause, pause, pause.
So when you correct him, that's contempt.
I see.
I know more than you do.
Let me tell you how it's right.
Yes.
I imagine a world where one can share information, where human beings can increase their collective intellect by sharing information.
I've learned some things.
You've learned some things.
You tell me what you know.
I'll tell you what I know.
So so you may not know that the C.H. is pronounced with the heart.
And that's understandable.
I wouldn't expect it to.
Italian is not your first language, but unlike you and you certainly know things that I don't know.
Presidential history, for example.
And we can share with each other and we can both come out smarter and more knowledgeable for it.
I don't see the contempt.
Yes.
Can I point out something?
Yes.
You only want to share knowledge when the other person wants to hear it.
If you share it.
When the other person is talking about something else and you correct their grammar, you correct their pronunciation, you're interrupting what they're trying to say and being superior because you know better, and commenting on it.
And when he does that, what do you feel?
Well, I'm going to point out something, because I'm still wearing my monitor, because it hasn't been beeping at all.
Yours has exploded and blue foam is coming out of it every time it gets near you.
It does not recognize you as a person.
Mine, during his whole rant when he was yelling at me, went down to below 90 to 89.
Interesting.
My heart rate.
I think I have so little regard for his opinion that it's almost like he's a hat rack to me.
I'm not saying this is correct.
I know what I'm saying is terrible.
And these are the confessions of probably a Ted Bundy hours before his death.
But I...
My heart rate went down when you were yammering and jabbering because I thought I was just looking at a chimp in the zoo, you know.
And so I was calmed and pleased.
Okay, pause.
Now, if you're going to try and say chimp in the zoo is an insult, I think you're way off base.
And I know that John's with me on this one.
Are you, dear?
I was thinking of this couple where her husband got very upset and said to his wife Joyce, do you think you're better than me?
And she said, better than I. Oh, yes.
Very good.
My wife would do that.
My wife would do that because she's very grammatically correct all the time.
So that's information, but in the context, it comes off as contempt.
So you would prefer, respectfully, if I may ask, so I know how that's going forward.
We're not in a courtroom.
You would prefer, if I do not correct your mispronunciations, allow you to speak with your customary authority, even when I know that you are making errors.
Or maybe pull you aside, right?
Before the taping and tell you?
Let me tell Julie and John one thing, which is that we were recently in Buenos Aires together.
It wasn't for work.
It was a romantic getaway.
And he kept referring to the famous dance, the tango, as the tango.
Now, and he got in my face and said, it's called the tango.
Everybody in Argentina backed me up and said, no, we call it the tango.
And he went, please, it's the tango.
No, it's not the tango.
So it's not that your whole premise is wrong, that you have the correct information.
And isn't it kind of you to share it with me?
Yeah. you're wrong.
You're just wrong all the time.
I let him finish.
I did not interrupt him.
Even though my instinct was to say immediately, that is incorrect.
It is the tango.
You see, in Spanish and Spanish-speaking countries known as Hispanic, which differs from Latin American in the sense that Latin American refers to only Latin American countries.
Hispanic, it's any country that speaks Spanish.
The A is almost always pronounced ah.
So does this feel like the kind of relationship you want to have?
No no, i would.
Um and this is one of the questions i wanted to ask you is is there a part in your book where you actually say it's okay um, for me to uh start hitting jordan?
Is it is uh, physical violence probably usually discouraged right, Probably so.
Yeah.
What if I hired someone to do it?
I don't get my hands dirty.
How about if you just say to him, please don't put me down?
Jordan, please don't put me down.
Okay.
I groom quickly.
I don't take the great care that you take with your groomings.
I don't have all of the equipment you have or the oils or the balms or the waxes.
Careful.
You're right.
I have to tell you, you're right.
I was starting to get into judgment.
Yes, you were.
Yes, I was.
And you know what?
I appreciate that.
I did not feel insulted.
Not yet.
Not yet.
He was going there.
Oh, yes.
Trust me.
I was cranking up the catapult.
Oh, yeah.
Pulling it back.
I was pulling it way back.
And then I was going to hurl a giant boulder at your castle and destroy it.
You're wearing like a wizard's hat.
You're up in a tower.
Too much information.
My point is that I groom quickly and I don't often take the same care that you take, because you are very fastidious.
He's very fastidious about his grooming and I'm not putting him down, but he has all kinds of products, mostly for grooming.
He has other products for various other practices of his which I find amoral.
But that's his thing and I'm not going to judge it.
It's whatever sexual stuff he's into.
But my point is...
And I don't take the same care you do.
I don't have the same standard of beauty, the same canon of beauty that you have.
So I just have to say, when you constantly point these things out to me, I feel less than.
I feel I get into a defensive crouch.
I think I grew up in an environment.
I've talked about this a lot, but I come from a very large Irish Catholic family, the son of very, very intelligent, educated people.
And yet for some reason, we fought like animals.
We threw potatoes at each other.
We really did.
I saw my mother throw a potato at all of us once.
It's the only thing we had around.
We just had so many goddamn potatoes.
We've been in the country for a while and they're very well-educated people, but they brought the country with them.
And my point is that I often felt attacked and I learned growing up sarcasm, passive aggression, my verbal judo chops would be the way that I would get through life.
And then along comes this big block of wood that's just perfectly made for a judo chop.
Do you know?
I mean, you've seen the karate, karate, sorry, Jordan, masters chop a board in half.
Right.
Verbally, my whole emotional reaction to things in life is a judo chop. attack before you can be attacked and then in comes this inanimate large um block of wood block just a block just a giant block of wood that's what he is he's it's not like you know try having a conversation with a block of wood you know what i'm saying so and so i just chop away and that's what i do to you jordan and it's probably not always fair conan can i point out something blah So I really appreciate you sharing that history.
That history is really helpful.
It lets us know that, for one thing, growing up in a family where you're always being attacked, you've got to survive, right.
And how do you survive?
You create defenses.
Yes.
And your defense is to counterattack.
But the problem with a defense like that you know it's a shield in front of you to kind of hide yourself so you don't get shamed is that you're also blocking out the positive that comes from him, the respect, the care that may be in there.
Are we certain it's in there?
I think so.
You think there's some caring in there?
I do.
I think there's a lot of caring.
I think there is a lot.
You know what he wants?
He wants his paycheck.
I mean, I know that sounds crass, but I am his employer.
We aren't husband and wife yet.
Conan, how many decades have you been together?
What has it been?
23.
Three decades.
Three decades, yeah.
Three decades.
Okay, so my guess is that if you really really wanted to, you could work elsewhere, but you don't want to.
He did look.
He looked for work.
Okay.
He's unemployable.
No, no, seriously.
And you told me that because of your actions that are out on the web, you are seen as unemployable.
Yes?
There have been... Why don't you get back to your point, Julie?
I'm sorry.
I'm very sorry.
That's right.
You know what I did?
I...
I went again on the attack.
And again, the old judo chop.
And I apologize, doctor.
Please go ahead.
And John, you were right to stop me.
I was... Well, I was thinking about... Can I finish?
Sure.
You finish.
I want to interrupt you.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're great.
Okay.
So...
When you are hitting at him, he, of course, blocks you.
But when you say look, I really respect you and you meant that seriously.
I could tell it wasn't made up.
Boom, you push it back.
Off it goes.
Doesn't go inside.
Just bounces off.
I'm terrible at taking a compliment.
I saw that.
Why?
Why, why, why?
It feels good to have those compliments, Conan.
I don't let any of those in.
That is sad because those compliments could probably do a lot to heal all that shame inside fear, inside feeling attacked.
Always.
If you let in those compliments.
Let me ask both of you.
I would like you to give your assessment, and this may be selfish, to take Jordan out of the equation, but assess me.
You've watched a lot of tape, probably against your will, but you had to because you were coming on here.
Do you see a damaged man?
And I want to start with you, John.
I want to make sure you get here.
No, I don't.
In fact, I was really moved by your story of how, when you were at Harvard and you went along with your friend to the Harvard Lampoon, you really found yourself.
I did.
You really found, you know, humor as a way of really expressing who you are.
I think I'm... I disagree.
I think I'm very badly damaged, a madman maybe.
But I do think humor saved me from actually committing crimes, you know?
Yeah, I understand.
From going on the loose and leaving a trail from...
But sometimes it's like the shield that Julie was just talking about.
Sometimes humor itself is like a shield.
I mean, it's a wonderful gift, obviously, you know, and it's a great talent you have with humor.
But sometimes it also blocks out the love.
That's right.
That's the point.
That is very palpable.
We both feel that.
And you feel that love is coming from Jordan, but I'm blocking it with humor.
That's right.
Right.
And put downs.
Yeah.
And put downs.
It's that counterattack.
I think one of the other things is that what makes this show so important to people all around the world is that they feel the love and they see the hostility and put downs.
They see both at the same time.
And it's a very powerful thing, because here you are, having all this love for one another and yet pushing each other away and then coming back together and pushing each other away.
So it's a very powerful dynamic.
And the humor is really fun.
This is amazing.
I've never thought of it that way.
I'd like to think that we represent the human condition with all of its ups and downs.
Oh, my God.
You said this speech earlier before they came in.
People may find this realistic approach to life endearing and they may enjoy watching for that reason.
I'm sorry I've hurt you with my... Misinformation.
With my... He's objectively... He was wrong about where they shot Karate Kid 2.
Objectively wrong.
Conan.
They shot it in Los Angeles.
Conan.
No, they didn't shoot it in Los Angeles.
They shot it in Hawaii.
Oh, Hawaii.
Okay, but you didn't say Hawaii, did you?
I just said Hawaii now.
See, I've learned.
I've improved myself.
I'm sorry.
I've improved myself.
I'm open to improvement.
Conan.
Yes.
Stop.
Stop.
He's apologizing.
And you're interrupting.
Stop.
Stop.
Stop.
He's apologizing to you.
He is trying to repair some injury he caused you.
Did you take it in?
No.
I still remembered him being wrong.
Okay.
It came back like a train coming at me.
Is that more important than him trying to repair the damage he's done?
You're right.
Yes.
You see, my intentions were never evil.
Just as I know your intentions were never evil when you've committed injury against me in the past.
When have I committed?
Well, it's interesting that you ask because we spent the first hour talking.
Talking about the ways I damaged you by answering questions by... Let him run just a little bit.
Let's hear this.
Go ahead.
Now again, I want to preface this by saying I expect, when you're talking about decades of intimate relationships, that there are going to be inadvertent slights to the other person.
Okay,
Uh...
The year was 1999, May 1999, and the world had not seen a new Star Wars movie release in 16 years.
And at the time, the Star Wars franchise was pristine.
You have to understand, put yourself back then.
And they announced that a new Star Wars film would be coming out in May 1999.
And I was a big fan.
You know, my brothers were as well.
And I decided to pull out all the stops and get tickets to an advanced screening of this movie a week before the public would see this.
Now you may think media screenings are all civilized, but when it comes to Star Wars, people still line up three hours before.
So my brother came into New York City on the train.
He spent hours.
We got there maybe four hours in advance and we just sat on the sidewalk together waiting for this momentous occasion.
And we were one of the first ones in the theater and we sat right in the center.
We judged how many rows were there.
We wanted the full surround sound experience.
We wanted to get lost in it.
And of course, the theater filled up.
And I was thinking any fool that walks in now is going to be like in the back corner.
And I was envisioning the magic of that moment.
After it says a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, before the John Williams score.
Do you guys have anywhere to go?
I was envisioning it bringing me back to my childhood.
I wanted to relive what it was like to be an innocent child with my brother, okay?
So about two minutes before the movie starts, I hear some commotion behind me.
And this guy stumbles in with this like brainy npr type woman with with him and they excuse me, excuse me, some woman is escorting them because they're like elite and there just happened to have been i guess someone left or something two seats right behind me in the center.
I had been there for five hours.
This guy stumbles in wait.
He's like tripping.
He's like tripping over people.
So he sits down, stumble.
I wasn't drinking, Yes.
No, you had you kicked people.
You know, you were like one of those people.
Inadvertently, you know, you tripped over people.
So now you're sitting behind me and you start like gabbing to me and already already.
I I don't want to talk to anybody.
I just want to get lost in this moment.
OK, so the lights go down.
And the 20th Century Fox logo comes up.
And I'm thinking to myself, this is it.
After 16 years, this is it.
And that silence comes right after that fanfare before the flourishing music.
And this guy leans forward and starts cracking jokes.
This guy makes it all about him.
He takes me completely out of the moment.
He starts dabbing in the middle of the movie theater and completely.
You just needed that laugh.
You had to take that moment, not knowing the history of what I went through to get that laugh.
And you know, he's sitting there chuckling and forever you've taken that moment away from me.
Now, I know that it was not intentional.
He may not have had respect for the situation, and most people know that they're not supposed to speak in a movie theater, especially something of that magnitude.
I knew those sequels wouldn't be good.
And I think I communicated to him my interest in what was happening and my disregard for anything that he may have had to say.
Will you admit now that those movies were not great?
Yes, in retrospect, they were not necessarily as good as the first.
So, um...
If Jordan and I let's say in another universe because I don't think it's going to happen in this lifetime, but let's say we got along people wouldn't be fascinated.
It's because they see us taking chunks out of each other that it becomes... It's a wrestling match.
It's a wrestling match, yeah.
A very strong wrestler against a very well bodily shaved wrestler, but one that's very weak and has bad information.
Careful.
You're right.
That could have almost become an insult.
Tell you what.
Tell you what.
Almost.
How about how about if John and I role play a totally different kind of conversation?
OK.
OK.
And are you going to be us in this conversation?
We're going to be you slightly improved. in terms of communication.
Idealized versions of us.
Idealized versions of us.
Okay.
And an idealized version of me is apparently me.
Communication.
So who's Conan and who's Jordan?
It doesn't matter.
Okay.
It's just what's between us.
Got it.
That matters, right?
So do you want to take the beard patch?
If I'm going to be honest, there's a lot about you that annoys me.
Okay.
What is it that I'm doing that annoys you?
Okay.
So when you go on about Italy and wines and all the things you know, it makes me feel insulted.
Like, you know, like my father was a microbiologist.
My mother was a great lawyer.
This is scary.
He's being me.
And I, you know, I felt put down at the table all the time. at the dinner table.
Really?
And so when you expound, you know, my father's a learned man, you know.
And how could I, you know, match him?
So I kind of feel that way when you go on about wines or how things are pronounced in ancient Greece.
You know what?
I did not know that that felt insulting to you.
What would make it better for you?
Maybe ask me if I want to hear what you have to say.
There's a plan.
That would be good.
Okay.
If you want feedback, maybe, or something.
Like, if you want to expound about something, ask me if I want to hear it.
Okay, if i want to hear it, then you know great okay, okay.
Sounds like though, if i'm seeing something, for example, a patch of beard that you haven't shaped okay yeah, and It kind of grates me just a little bit.
So should I point out?
I hate authority.
So when I point that out, I feel like an authority to you.
Yeah, yeah.
Which authority?
Who would say that?
My father, my father.
My father.
The great microbiologist.
Oh, no.
So I remind you of your father?
Mm-hmm.
Oh, my God.
That's terrible.
He once threw a cyclotron at me.
Go get her.
No, I really appreciate your saying that.
That's really great.
I don't want to be like your father.
I really don't.
Okay.
Because I know on some level you hate your father.
What?
I don't hate my father.
I love my father.
My father's a great guy.
And?
I respect him.
I love him.
He threw those test tubes at me for a reason.
I was acting up.
This is on me.
It wasn't my dad.
I was way out of line.
Dad, I'm sorry.
I think we should try it right now.
Oh, yeah.
So, Jordan, why don't you try and talk to me the same way that these two just talked.
Let's try it.
I am sorry if I have reminded you of your father.
I'm sorry if I have brought you back to painful moments in your childhood when I've told you how to pronounce Ralph Macchio's name.
It's Macchio.
No, it's Macchio.
I am sorry if some of my information sharing has been offensive.
I certainly didn't mean it that way.
And incorrect.
I may have made mistakes like any other human being.
I don't know that's a reason to discount my entire credibility.
Going forward.
I will make an attempt.
If I notice a large patch of hair on your face that you miss shaving, I will make an attempt to tell you privately, as per your request.
Thank you.
Also, I will ask you if I have something to share that's relevant to what we're speaking about.
Some facts, Latin origins of words or other etymology.
I will ask you first, do you want to hear what I have to say?
I don't want to, ever.
Well, it depends on the context.
No, it doesn't.
I'd never want to hear that stuff, ever.
Take it in, Jordan.
Jordan, take it in.
I never want to hear it.
Oh, you never want to hear it.
I never want to hear it.
I should not even ask.
Exactly.
I see.
Yeah.
There's no like, well, it depends on the moment.
All this information I have. have just goes to waste yeah it mostly it's it's mostly shit it's not good and I'm sorry listen I'm sorry that seemed harsh Julie I'm sorry it's not factually correct most of it and I think you're just shooting from the hip so no I don't need to hear it I can always and trust me I have their phones you can look up everything you need to know right now and and it will tell me well sometimes you don't know what you don't know right Jordan yeah let me ask you something yes why is it so important to you that to correct Conan?
What's that about?
That is a very valid question.
You see, I don't honestly don't look at it as correcting.
I look at it as sharing information.
Let's come out of this.
Let's come out of this as enhanced human beings.
Jordan.
Yes.
What you're doing is saying, Conan, you're wrong.
I'm right.
And it becomes a win lose thing.
He has to lose.
You get to win.
Yeah.
Is that fulfilling to you?
Does that bring you emotionally closer to him?
I'd like to think that over time we have built up a foundation of love and understanding to the point where we can exchange information and not have it necessarily interpreted as hostile.
But that's not how he thinks about it.
Yeah.
It's not a sharing of information.
It's not.
I see your face and I just want to smash it.
I've learned.
I've learned today.
I've learned that you're in pain.
And now I understand why.
And I will envision you as a helpless child competing with other siblings.
Jordan, careful.
I will envision you doubting your own self-worth.
There's the contempt.
Well, this way I understand his pain and his vulnerabilities, his weakness, if you will.
Do you really?
Yes.
Can you actually express empathy for him rather than infantilizing him?
Don't infantilize him.
I can imagine.
I put myself in his situation, okay?
He's got a lot of siblings.
Now, look at his father.
This is also a different thing.
I want to grab one thing just so there's no love my dad.
Dad, not the problem, not the issue.
Let's talk about my brother, Neil.
Man and Neil, if you're listening and I know he's a listener he used to.
He was older than me and he would sit on top of me and I couldn't move and he would laugh.
And yeah, he would laugh.
Some would say that's a healthy sibling interaction.
He did it two years ago when I visited.
Yes.
You know, and, you know, I had to call the police.
Neil, if you're listening, that really got my goat.
My father, a great man, great man and very lovely and a sweet man.
There's some issues.
Everyone has issues with their father and their mother.
Of course they do.
Okay.
But listen, I won't have my father slandered on this show.
Never again.
I don't intend to slander your father nor any of O'Brien's, Neil, Justin, Kate, Jane, any of them.
You know them all.
They're good at predicting whether a relationship is going to last.
What are your predictions, John?
Well, one of the things that...
I think needs to happen in this relationship is for you guys to recognize how indispensable you've been to one another these almost 30 years.
Yeah.
And that you're not replaceable.
Can I just point out I think I'm not replaceable.
You know sort of a once in a hundred year talent, like a Haley's Comet, if you will, in comedy.
I think it's 76 years.
Haley's.
Oh, excuse me.
I have information about Haley's comment.
Would you like to hear it?
And my point is I think of you, as you know, an Ikea trundle bed.
You know that.
OK, this one broke.
I'll get another one.
Right, right.
You ask for a prediction, you're never going to fire him.
Wow.
And that's because this has been going on for three decades.
If you were going to fire him, you would have fired him 25 years ago.
I actually think I did, but he just kept showing up.
He didn't notice it.
Yeah, he didn't notice it.
And then he controls the paperwork, so he probably just gave himself a raise.
So let me say one other thing.
May I, in terms of prediction?
Sure.
So you guys bicker and banter back and forth, lots of criticism, lots of contempt.
Nobody's being vulnerable.
You're not, Jordan.
You're not either.
But the rewards for not being serious and vulnerable are too big for you guys to want to change the relationship.
Yeah. the rewards of success, of money, of followers.
Yes.
I mean, and to be fair, especially with the money part, that's mostly goes to me.
Like it's, I am, you know, this is just another thing.
I don't know that you see a lot of money from this.
No, no, I don't.
But I, you know, I mean, I haven't seen your house, but mine's just, it's insane.
Well, we're not equal.
Of course you are superior and I am inferior.
11 of your houses would go into my house.
And we might do that as a bit.
You know what i would love for you guys?
I would love to hear someday on your show, you know what?
Conan is really brilliant.
Yeah, jordan is really brilliant too.
Wouldn't that be amazing.
Yes, I'd love to.
In lieu of that, have a copy of our book.
Thank you very much.
No way.
Is that the right one?
Yes, it is.
Thank you so much.
I was told this was an erotic novel.
What's going on?
This is excellent.
I want to thank you very much.
And my eternal thanks to the Gottmans for being here.
Yes, and their book is called Fight Right, How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection.
It's available now.
Beautiful cover.
Thank you, Frank.
And our job, Jordan, we're both going to read this book.
And I would actually like to hit you with this.
So that might be the way that I use it.
But thank you.
No, that's Neil.
You want to hit Neil.
Well, he's really strong.
He might hit back.
I want to thank you both very much.
You both are, all joking aside, very good at what you do.
It's been a pleasure.
We just may be a lost cause.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
That's been this very just fascinating for me episode of The Conan and Jordan Show.
And thank you for tuning in.
And we'll see you next time.
The Conan and Jordan Show with Conan O'Brien and Jordan Schlansky is produced by me, Frank Smiley.
Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Jim McClure.
Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez.
Our supervising producer is Andrew Bruce.
Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn.
The theme song is Tom Sawyer by Rush.
You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode.
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Thank you.
