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Connection and the ability to explain where we are and where we need to go is critical for success in communication.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I'm excited to speak with Russ Altman.
Russ is a professor of bioengineering at Stanford University.
His primary research interests are in the application of AI and data science to problems relevant to medicine.
Russ is also the host of Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything Podcast.
Welcome Russ. I'm a big fan of your podcast and really enjoyed the opportunity we had earlier today where I was a guest on your show.
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
I share enthusiasm for this podcast and it's kind of a thrill.
I think it might be my first podcast as a guest and it couldn't be a better one.
Oh well thank you and I'm excited for what we're about to do.
You ready to get started?
Yes. Excellent. Each of your podcast episode titles starts with the future of.
So let me start by asking you for your thoughts on the future of communication, especially how AI plays out in it.
So first of all, I'm glad you mentioned that I had you on my podcast because the answer is you told me the future of communication, but I actually thought about it before we chatted.
I'm an AI enthusiast. I use AI in my research.
I'm part of the Human Center AI Institute at Stanford.
AI in general has exposed lots of things that were hidden in our society.
So a lot of people hear about bias and unfairness and that is a problem with AI.
On the other hand, it was a problem before and in some ways we need to give AI credit for exposing the unfairness and giving us something that we can work on to try to improve.
And the reason I mentioned this is I think for communication in some ways it's the same answer.
If you're worried that a chat GPT type tool can replace you, I think you need to think about why am I communicating, what am I trying to say?
Am I being authentic? Do I have a message?
Because really if those things are true, it shouldn't be a problem.
It should actually just help you amplify and improve your message.
So I think that we're at a time now where people have to ask hard questions about why they're communicating and how they communicate.
And I think that the AI is bringing these issues to the fore that we're kind of insidiously in the background.
So you can see I'm an AI optimist and I think this will help.
I also think AI can bring a lot of value to communication.
And I really like your response.
The thing to worry about is do I have a clear goal?
Do I know what is important to say?
And how can I craft it in a way to be helpful?
And I think AI can be an assistant in it.
For example, I have many non-native speaking students.
AI is a wonderful tool to help them learn some of the vernacular and learn other options for ways of saying things.
It is interesting how good it is when you say please explain this at the level of an eighth grader or at the level of a high school student.
And I think that's something we all can get better at because understanding who your audience is and then making sure you're delivering at the right level is always a challenge and that seems to be one thing that it's kind of good at.
Absolutely. And you can actually use it to flag jargon in terms that others might not understand.
You mentioned that you happen to use it in your communication.
Do you mind sharing some of the ways you use it?
My favorite story, if I may, was I had written a grant proposal.
And I ran the one page summary of the grant through the large language model and I said, please summarize the strengths and weaknesses of this summary of my research that I'm about to submit to the National Institute of Health for research dollars.
And it came back and it had a few pretty good positives and ares.
But my favorite negative is it said, you seem to be leaning on prior accomplishments too heavily.
And it was absolutely right.
So I've used it as like as a pre human screen before I go to my colleagues even, even my trusted colleagues.
Let's just see what the LLM has to say.
Maybe I'll fix it up and then give it to my buddy down the hall to take a look.
Did it recommend you need to see some therapy about some narcissism or no, no, no.
It didn't. That goes without statement.
But if I had asked, I'm sure it would have added to the chorus.
I want to pull this thread a little farther about grants.
You have been incredibly successful at raising money for the projects that you do through the grants that you apply for.
Many of our listeners have to write proposals asking for funding from their bosses or from external organizations.
What guidance do you have when it comes to drafting proposals and grants?
I am passionate about this.
In general, the first thing you have to do is understand the mission of the person or institution to whom you are making a request.
Because if you don't hit that mission directly, it's end of the game.
Given that, you need to have a big problem that you want to be part of the solution of.
And then a focused problem that you are actually going to provide the solution to.
You have to show that that sub problem is not solved.
Then you have to make the case that there's an opportunity that you and maybe others, but certainly you have.
And then you have to boil it down to three to five action items followed by a summary of the state of the world when you're done.
And I believe that that formula can be used from everything, from a grant to a federal funding agency to a marriage proposal.
And I've tried it in all different settings.
And it really is the fundamental structure of any proposal.
When we turn off the microphones, I want to hear the future state that you use to propose to your wife.
But that's an easy one. Honey, you will be happier than you are now.
Excellent. So the key takeaway from what you just said, I think, is not only do you have to know your audience and what's important for them.
And that's critical. Regardless of if it's a proposal or a pitch or a presentation.
But this notion of where we are to where we're going to from to two is so important in pitches and presentations and it sounds like in types of proposals.
Absolutely. And I like this notion of saying, hey, there's this larger problem and I'm going to focus on this subset and my unique value or my team's unique value is what's going to help us solve it.
Here's the specific things and then here's what the world's going to look like.
Thank you for listening, Matt.
What you did there is something I'd also like to ask you about.
Your work in the academic world is incredibly complex, is incredibly detailed.
And yet you're so good at explaining and making that complex information accessible.
What are your thoughts on how to do that?
I know you do it strategically.
I know from the conversation you and I had earlier, you like using the whiteboard.
What are the things you think about when you take complex information to make it more accessible to people who just don't know as much without dumbing it down?
I think that you know this very well.
Stories of what people remember, stories of what people like.
It's actually frustrating because part of my work is statistics.
And statistics is really much more robust than a story.
We always say you might have one good anecdote and that doesn't replace lots of actual data.
But I'm afraid that sometimes a lot of times a good story does stand in for a lot of data because it's so compelling to the human mind.
So we're always looking for stories.
Analogy is a key part of both stopping the conversation and letting people catch up, but also saying, okay, wait a minute.
Let me rephrase what you just said, but let me map it onto an everyday situation like going shopping.
So you're telling me that the internet and the way it works is like a very complicated mail system or whatever.
And so can you listen to what the expert is saying and see an analogy to an everyday life thing and you're checking your understanding, but on the chance that you're right, you're also helping the entire listenership or readership understand what was just said.
So that's important. Related to that, you always have an antenna up for jargon and you, I'm sure you do this too, you have to be willing to stop the conversation cold and say, oh, you just said NIH.
That's the National Institutes of Health, they fund research in America.
And so part of what I'm doing always is a little antenna listening for words that need to be defined or abbreviations that might not be commonly understood.
So I think analogy, stories, and then adjusting the levels.
So sometimes when you're talking with someone, you just have to send them signals in real time that we are talking at a level that requires a PhD and I'm going for high school college students here.
And then it's practice.
And one of the great things I love both about this podcast and about your book is you don't say that you either got it or you don't got it.
All of this can be practiced and learned.
Absolutely. That's a big point I like to try to make and you are helping all of us learn this.
So something that I think can also be helpful, I'd love to get your input on this, is there's work you can do in advance.
So you can actually stockpile some stories or think about some potential analogies that might work.
It doesn't all have to happen in the moment.
You can pull them in. And at the same time, some pre-work you can do is you can prepare the audience.
So in a meeting invite, for example, you could say, and we're going to be talking about concepts like this.
So people come in primed, which I think makes your job easier.
What are your thoughts on that kind of pre-work?
I totally agree. I had one more point written down and I just had decided that I had talked too long a second ago, but I said anticipate the tough spots and validate that they're tough.
So say to the audience, this guy is talking about quantum physics.
This is hard stuff. Here's how we're going to try to manage through it together.
So I just want to say that you're absolutely right.
I think the key idea of prep for an interview or for creating a document or any kind of communication is anticipating the tough moments, the tough concepts and saying, okay, I'm going to try to fly with this analogy.
I think this will work. I think it'll make it more accessible, more relatable.
That's part of doing your homework.
Before I talk to you, before I talk to anybody, I spend the night before basically Google stalking you, looking at what have you said, what have you done?
Part of it is so I can have emergency topics to talk about if it turns out that you're reticent to speak.
That wasn't a problem. However, the other thing was what might he say that might be surprising or troubling and how am I going to manage that?
Then you go in with this confidence that whatever comes down the pike, we're ready for it.
You may use them or you may not use them, but having them just has you this sense of preparedness.
Right. That helps you be confident and more present because you're not reaching ahead thinking what's coming.
You do a good job of preparing to ask the questions you ask on your podcast.
That preparation in advance, although I know that I'm recommending everybody's cyber-stock people, but I do think it's important to do your homework.
What advice do you have for asking questions that can really help focus and guide communication and conversations?
Specificity in the question is key.
Specificity rules in the world, in my opinion.
People want to hear stories that are specific, not general, and they want to hear questions that are specific.
But then my second tip helps take up a little bit of pressure off because I think the follow-up question is arguably more important than the initial question.
The initial question gets the listeners and the guests, if we're talking about a podcast, into a certain space.
There might be some Heming and Hying as they gather their thoughts, but then they say something.
Now they're warmed up and their audience is warmed up.
Now you can come up with a follow-up question that might be the meaty question.
I've heard people who are very good who do interviews, you know, Letterman and Johnny Carson.
If you watch, their follow-ups were always very good.
In addition to being specific and being open to asking follow-up questions, the use of questions isn't just for people who do interviewing.
You can be very effective in a meeting and giving feedback through asking focused specific questions.
And in some ways, I think people receive that in a more open way than if I give you some declarative state.
I think you're absolutely right.
I notice that my PhD students, the last thing that they get good at before they're ready to launch and graduate is answering questions after a seminar because they come to it thinking that questions are an attack.
And so they get defensive.
Their answers are almost off-putting.
And so there's a mentorship that you do to say, you need to consider every question as a little gift.
It shows I listened to what you just said.
I've processed it. And now I actually want to have a conversation with you.
That, like, it doesn't get any better than that.
So yes, questions can be powerful.
They can say thank you. They can say I heard you.
And they can say, and I have a little bit of an opinion here without even saying it as I have a little bit of an opinion here.
Seeing questions as opportunities rather than threats and challenges is a fundamental mindset shift.
And I love that you spend time with your students helping them get there because it's instinctual.
When somebody comes up with a question, we get defensive.
But if we can see it as an opportunity to connect, to learn, to collaborate, I think is wonderful.
His friend is a sports writer, but really more importantly, he's a journalist.
And he's famous for making his points with these very understated, beautiful questions where he doesn't even have to follow up and tell you what he really thinks because it's obvious from his question, what a great journalist he is because of this skill.
We had a whole episode with Deborah Schifferen on how to ask good questions.
She said to pause. So after you asked the question, pause, and after the person answers, pause even longer because more comes out.
I'd love to move to another area where you are an expert.
You work on highly complex topics, but you also work in highly complex teams.
What best practices do you use to foster creativity and collaboration while trying to avoid destructive conflict and repetitive actions and wastes of time?
It has become clear that team science is the most effective and is the most exciting in many ways.
You must understand and acknowledge the rewards and motivations of your collaborators because it's unlikely to be identical to your own.
And if you leave that unstated or worse, not understood, it's just a recipe for a lot of wasted energy and wasted words.
And that leads to number two, which is you have to build the relationship, the human relationship separate from the scientific or business collaboration.
But that time, which is kind of a pain in the neck because it means you have to have lunch with them and maybe you don't want to have them.
Maybe you want to just take five minutes to shove food down your throat because you're busy.
But the time to build that relationship pays off in spades.
So those two things come first.
Then you have to, I think diversity and teamwork has become, there's now literal evidence that if everybody looks and sounds like you and has the same training and the same perspective and the same goals, that is not the recipe for the best team.
So you have to take a hard look at who you've invited to the room.
And if you're really brave and courageous, you will say, this is a good group, but this is not the right group for this project and we either need to add to it or I need to make some substitutions.
And then it's about roles and responsibilities and with the relationship in place and with an understanding of the reward systems and with a diversity, now you can say, finally, okay, here's what we're trying to do.
How are we going to break this down and how are we going to do roles and responsibilities so that people feel like they're part of a team that it's functioning and then having mechanisms for both formal and informal communication in place and understood.
A lot of richness in that answer.
Yes, sorry. No, no, no, it's all good.
The fact that you first have to get alignment on goals and expectations is critical, forming those relationships, which then allow much of what you've said.
And I will just put an exclamation point on this notion of diversity, diversity of opinions and experience and goals is what brings around the richness, but also requires that you have to define the roles, responsibilities and ways of communicating because if people have those differences, they bring that different way of communicating to.
I want to drill down on one aspect that I was very specific in the question I asked.
I said, avoiding destructive conflict.
I know in the work you do that encouraging some disagreement and conflict is actually helpful to achieving the goals.
How do you thread that needle?
Where it comes up in my life literally every week is that all the students and postdocs in the lab take turns every week giving what we call a group meeting.
It's a research and progress talk about how they're going.
So what's supposed to happen?
What's supposed to happen is we're supposed to be supportive.
We want them to feel comfortable, but they're supposed to be practicing for an audience that may be hostile, like scientific colleagues can be hostile.
And so I as the leader of the group have to figure out how do I set this up so that they are getting the hardest questions, scientific, technical questions from these people that they sit with every day, but it doesn't lead to a toxic environment, lack of trust.
And people saying, I don't want to give my group meeting.
I don't trust this group.
So I have to set it up so that they can present.
I can ask hard questions.
But then we have a culture of thanking them for their talk, acknowledging the hard things that they've uncovered as hard, thanking them for the solutions that they've produced.
And if I see problems, I have other communication methods in the lab to try to identify those and deal with them outside of that forum.
But you're absolutely right.
This is like the number one thing for a team leader to be aware of because the rigor-slash support tension is there all the time.
You know, Russ, one of the things I love about hosting this podcast is the ability to talk with amazing people.
I always learned something.
What is something that you've learned from your many years of hosting the future of everything that you think might help the listeners of Think Fast Talk Smart?
The people who I interview, what they do is the thing that they think is the most important thing they could possibly do.
So you talk to a civil engineer.
It's not that this is one little interesting problem in civil engineering.
This is the most interesting problem in civil engineering to this person.
And indeed, it's the most important thing they can think of doing.
And so the passion that scientists and engineers, because that's what we focus on, but the passion of scientists and engineers in approaching their work probably shouldn't have surprised me, but it did.
And I learned that you need to get to people's passion to really understand what makes them tick.
That's important for all of us to do what the people we work with and the people we socialize with is provide the mavenus to explain their passion.
Well, I know you listen to the podcast.
So you know that before we end, I like to ask three questions.
One, I create just for you.
Oh, I could. And it's so exciting.
And two, that are similar for everybody else I interview you up for yours.
Yeah, absolutely. All right.
You are very future focused.
So what is one thing about the future that you're particularly excited about?
I am excited about young people.
Young people starting to form their lives and their direction gives me hope for the future.
As you may have come to your attention, the world is currently facing a lot of problems.
And it's very easy to get very negative.
And if you want to combat that negativity, be involved in an admissions process or a hiring process of young people like for their first job or for their next job.
If you're not inspired, then I think you need to do some deep introspection.
I love that answer simply because I have lots of friends who are getting cramuginly and they will say, these young people, what's this world going to amount to?
And I say, it's us that's causing the problems because if you come in and see my students or the people I coach, there's a lot of hope and there's a lot of excitement.
And I'm glad you echoed that.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
My dad. Tell me why. He had a great voice.
He had an FM voice and he did lots of the things that you discuss all the time.
When I'm trying to do my best at communicating, I'm channeling dad.
I actually am getting a little choked up because I feel exactly the same way about my father.
My father had an amazing resident voice.
And when you said FM voice, my father actually did a little radio and he was always very structured.
Get to the point. What's the point?
And it really helped me try to be more focused and concrete.
So if I may, between the podcast we did this morning and the more doing now, I gave a talk and somebody said, what's the best piece of advice you ever got?
And I said it was from my dad and it was get to the point.
Oh, how funny. Question number three, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
You need to know who you're talking to.
You need to know the audience a little bit about their goals, hopes and dreams.
Second, you need to think about what you're specifically trying to tell that person.
And then the third one I'm going to go with, make sure you try to keep it fun, light and enjoyable.
Like life is short. And if you can do something with a sense of joy, why not do it with a sense of joy?
So even if it's the most mundane message, think about how can I make this a positive experience for me and for the person who's about to listen to me and have a conversation with me?
This notion of connection and engagement through the energy you bring to your topic is really important.
There are people who study things that I don't understand and prior to hearing them talk about it or write about it, I didn't care about, but they're passion and their ability to connect it to me and make it engaging makes a big difference.
I agree. Russ, thank you so much.
An amazing job of educating us and keeping it engaging and interesting.
I appreciate it. All of us can learn from you in terms of how to connect with our audiences, manage some of the tricky situations through questions and structuring our environment so that we can take the advantage of conflict.
I appreciate your time.
Best of luck on the podcast.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
I really enjoy this and congratulations on your successes.
You've been listening to Think Fast, Talk Smart, The Podcast.
If you've enjoyed this episode, you might want to check out similar topics discussed in episode 109 with Francis Frye, how to communicate complex ideas simply and effectively.
And episode 3 with Lauren Weinstein, when knowing too much, can hurt your communication, how to make complex ideas accessible.
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