Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
Oh my gosh. I have been so stressed out.
I'm trying to finish my next book and get that manuscript turned in, and I'm going to tell you more about that another time.
But as the deadline approaches, I even constantly snapping at my poor family.
Does that happen to you?
You know, you get stressed at work or about something else going on in your life and you take it out on the people that you love.
I know you don't mean to.
I don't mean to. And now I'm constantly saying, I'm sorry, I was such a jerk, I didn't mean to use that tone of voice, I'm just so stressed.
I thought that was a good apology, but then I see this video online of a guy who's sitting in the front seat of his car, and he was talking about bad apologies.
And in the video, he's like, uh, blaming your bad behavior on your stress, that is a bad apology.
Whoa. He called me out, and he also gave amazing advice.
So the next time someone treats you poorly and blames it on stress, this is what Jefferson Fisher says you need to say back.
You're going to calmly and quietly respond with, you don't need to apologize for what your stress has done to you, but you do need to apologize for what it did to me.
Whoa. Oh, you don't need to apologize for what your stress has done to you.
But you do need to apologize for what your stress did to me.
Tell you what. I tracked down the man in the front seat of that car.
His name is Jefferson Fisher, and he is here in the studio today to talk all things communication.
From bad apologies, to speaking with confidence, to learning how to stand your ground.
Hey, it's your friend Mel.
I am so excited that you're here.
It's always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together.
And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family.
I also want to take a moment and just acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that can truly help you live a better life.
So I was just telling you that I have been super stressed because I've got some big deadlines with my next book coming out.
And look, I'm human.
I can try my best, but there are days where I still take my stress out on my family.
And when I snap at them, I'm always quick to apologize, and I'm always saying I'm really sorry.
I didn't mean to be a jerk.
I didn't mean to use that tone of voice.
I was just so stressed.
Well, according to Jefferson Fisher, who is in our Boston studios today, blaming your bad behavior on stress is a bad apology.
There's a better way for you to communicate.
And you and I are going to learn how to be a better communicator from Jefferson Fisher.
Let me tell you a little about him.
He's a trial lawyer who has millions of followers online who turn to him every single day for his powerful and poignant communication tips.
Jefferson says, what you say is who you are.
You can learn how to be more articulate, confident, and persuasive.
And you know what I love most about Jefferson is that the videos that millions of people are watching every day, he's making them in the front seat of his car in between court cases and meetings with his clients.
His advice is simple, packs a powerful punch.
So I tracked him down.
And Jefferson has put his cases on hold.
He's flown here from Texas to be in our Boston studios to tell you and me exactly what to say and when you should say nothing at all.
Jefferson, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
Mel Robbins, thank you for having me.
Oh my gosh, I'm so thrilled that you are here.
Where I would really love to start is, Jefferson, could you tell the person listening how their life might change if they take everything that you're about to share with us today to heart and they apply it in their life?
They will have the power to change everything they could want to about their life, their relationships, and where they want to go.
Because for the vast majority of people, and especially any person who listens right now, what you say is who you are to people.
That's the only time they will experience who you are.
You can't be a kind person if you don't say kind things.
When you hear somebody say, oh, that person was nice.
Well, what you mean is they said nice things to me.
Same thing with somebody who's rude.
You hear something you don't like.
So it's the power to communicate in the tips that I give are short, concise of how they can be better and improve the next conversation that they have.
I freaking love that.
I've never heard anybody describe the power of your words and the way in which you communicate.
The things that you say is who you are.
It's the only way they'll experience you.
They might see that kind deed.
The vast majority of the time they're going to only hear what you say.
So you find that the power to communicate is that you compress your entire personality into just what they hear you say.
Huh. Now, I think everybody who is either shy or a little insecure or feels maybe like they're an introvert is now like, oh, gosh, because I keep my mouth shut.
Can anybody learn to be a better communicator?
Anybody can. It doesn't matter if you say two words, 20 words, often you can say a lot with less than you can with more words.
So it's not about, oh, I'm an introvert, I'm too shy, I can never.
That's not the point.
More words is not better communication.
Ooh, I love that, too.
I'm going to learn a lot from you because I tend to be somebody who just vomits it all out and I feel like I could learn how to say less.
Well, that's not a bad thing, but sometimes it's not bad to say more either.
All right, we'll see what you think about my communication style.
I'm curious because I love following you online.
Millions of people have discovered you and love watching you as you sit in the front seat of your car, you're squeezing this advice in between cases that you're doing in court, in between meetings with clients.
How did you get started doing this and why do you think millions of people are following you and loving your advice?
Thank you. I left a big defense firm, a big law, and I wasn't happy anymore.
I was a partner there and I went from having a team to just being by myself with my laptop and coffee shops.
I started thinking, well, I need to get on social media and then that quickly turned into, I feel like I'm selling myself, you see all these billboards with personal injury attorneys.
I thought that's not who I want to be, what can I do to just be a light in the world?
What's my legacy going to be?
I guide my principles on is this something my kids would be proud of?
So that really hits home for me of what kind of legacy can I leave even if I'm not here?
And so I decided I was going to teach people on something that I feel I know better than anybody in my world.
And that's how to communicate the lessons that I've learned.
So I got my phone in my car and made my first how to argue like a lawyer video.
Wow. And the rest is history and the rest is history.
So it's been almost two years and millions and millions of followers online.
And why do you think people follow you?
The videos are short.
They're very succinct and they give them that light bulb moment of, oh, I could do that.
But I talk about very practical.
What I talk about is not hypothetical.
It's not based on some study.
It is in the trenches.
It's real conflict that we deal with from opposing attorneys to having to argue before judges.
You have your own clients that may or may not agree with you.
So it's communicating at all different levels.
That's very practical and relatable and giving it to them in a way that they're like, hey, this guy's he's an attorney, but yet he's in his car and he's talking to me like I'm a real human.
It's it's not that hard.
Well, what I love about what you're saying, and this is true, is that most of us, I believe, especially when we are either uncomfortable or we have to have a difficult conversation, we focus on this idea that you have to win.
And a lot of people see lawyers and they think, oh, it's all about arguing and winning.
And you forget the fact that no, you actually have to navigate judges and juries and court officers and clerks and other attorneys that you're going to see.
And the ability to have people listen is just as important.
What do you think most of us get wrong about how we communicate?
That arguments are something to win, not something to unravel.
I teach that arguments are not in the conversation.
And what gets worse is when you pull your way and I pull my way versus looking at it and saying, help me with the knot.
How can we unravel this?
How can we smooth it out?
Never win an argument.
If somebody is telling you or teaching you or you read some book on how to win every argument, they're just selling you something.
OK, then let me give you an example.
You ready? I'm ready.
Last night we go out to dinner.
It is my mother -in -law's eighty seventh birthday.
Happy birthday. Yes.
Happy birthday to Judy.
And so we're out with the family and I, of course, have a conversation that happened at the table.
I said something that I immediately wanted to take back.
My husband and I are now leaving.
We've all been there, right?
You have stuck foot in mouth.
Your partner is now angry with you.
We get into the car.
I was not driving. Somebody else was driving.
So we hop into the Uber and Chris turns to me and he's like, why did you have to say that?
Yeah. And so can you explain in this situation that I think we can all relate to where now you are about to have an argument with somebody and you are describing that arguments are like a knot.
So what do I do in this situation where I'm about to go into full on defend me mode?
How do I get out of this mess?
Well, sometimes it just takes a big shovel.
But anytime there's miscommunication, it is because what is sent is not what is received.
So what you thought you said is not what they heard.
And often you're just on different frequencies.
If I were to turn my radio to 90s country, which I love, and you turned it on, I don't know, let's say 2000s R &B, you'd be going, this sounds great.
And like, I know this sounds great.
And we're still rocking to our own sounds.
And we're not on the same channel.
And so when you're in that backseat and you're talking with Chris and he's going, why do you say that?
The question is, what did you hear?
Oh, so it's that understanding of what did you hear when I said that?
Because I know what I meant.
What did you hear? And so it's this pushing of when it's only going how you say it in your head.
Nobody else is hearing that.
What did you hear? Right.
That's amazing. Because the second he said, why did you say that?
I felt attacked. Of course.
And as I sit here in the bright daylight, right, and I've got distance from it, I don't actually think I put my foot in my mouth.
I know what my intention was.
You know. Yes. And so the next time you're in an argument with somebody and that not starts to build and you can feel yourself yanking on it because you go into a mode of defending yourself.
If somebody says to you, why did you say that?
Or they attack you on something, your response is what did you hear?
Exactly. Wow. Well, and did your defense ask somebody why you said that?
Why were it puts everybody on the defense?
Because it sounds like you're attacking, you're undermining their credibility.
OK, so let's reverse the rules here.
Let's say my husband Chris says something really stupid or like, you know, that I'm like, why would he say something like that?
If I'm now the one and in the car with him and he has said something at a party or like around family that I just wanted to reach out and choke him, obviously I wouldn't.
But what would you say instead of why would you say that?
I would use the word what instead of starting with why, which puts you on the defensive because when you say why, the first thing you want to say is because I said so.
That's why. Right. That autonomy that you feel.
But instead it's the what.
What was going through your head when that happened or what made you say this?
It's that curiosity.
I'm just curious of how you got there instead of the pushing the why.
Why did you do this?
Why did you do it that way?
I love that. Because you're right.
One is judgment and the other is curiosity.
Right. One is poking and the other is leaning in.
It's the whole student versus teacher mentality instead of feeling like you're having to push.
You're having something to learn about it.
No wonder so many people follow you.
What do you what is the secret to getting better to talking to people?
Not really a secret as much it is a process of wanting to express yourself in a way of saying what you mean more because often you want to say the thing but you're hesitant about it.
You're not sure exactly how you want to put it across so you feel like you need to kind of dance around it.
Okay. And often you just need to jump right in.
That sounds scary for a lot of people.
It is scary, but I mean you cold plunge.
It's worse when you go inch by inch.
So can you give us an example, especially as you're listening to Jefferson, if you have a conversation or there's something that you wish you could communicate more effectively, how do you do it?
Well, let's put it in terms of a difficult conversation for them.
So whoever's listening, I want you to imagine you are about to walk into somebody's office and there's going to be that hard conversation in the room.
And let's just say it's a topic of something that is bad news.
Put your mind wherever it is.
You walk in and somebody goes, so how are you?
How are you lately?
You've been good. Pickleball games.
All right. Well, that's that's good.
Well, your family's good.
Well, listen, hey, I have something that we've been talking about in listen, I know it's not that big of a deal and I want you to understand.
You're making me panic because I'm listening to Jefferson because of that fear of the unknown Mel versus let's say the different scenario.
You come in. Say thank you for meeting with me.
Mel, I have bad news.
You deliver that bad news versus this isn't going to be a fun conversation.
You say that. This isn't going to be fun for us to talk about.
This isn't my favorite conversation I have.
You prepare them for it.
Often you're afraid to disappoint people.
And what that really is is you don't believe that they have enough emotional resiliency to handle it.
So you need to baby them to tiptoe into the water instead of dipping right in.
People will admire you more.
They will see you as somebody with more respect and more confidence.
Every time when you say what you want to say fully.
Wow. Do you do that with your kids too?
As much as I can. But of course I'm in a very loving way.
Gotcha. I mean it makes sense because I think a lot of the advices and I will admit I think I've even given this advice in the past is like OK we'll make a sandwich.
Got to say something positive and then you stick in the meat which is the negative part and people see it coming.
Yeah I don't like the sandwich.
OK you just go right for the meat.
Well you can put in some bread but I feel like it's disingenuous to make them have to go.
What do you mean. What do you say.
What do you you kind of have to just sit there and wait and it's painful rather than going right into it.
There's still a place to be kind.
There's still a place to be very direct and how you talk to your kids depends on your kid's age.
How I speak to my four and six year old is different how my father spoke to me when I was 16 when I would come to him and complain and he and he'd go.
You don't have to like it.
You just need to understand it.
Right. And it's that whole different mentality of I can deliver all the truth and still be kind.
I want to pull that thread for a minute because one of the reasons why we do not communicate directly with people is because we believe that if somebody can't handle the truth or if they're going to have an emotional reaction or if they're feel like upset or disappointed in themselves that somehow it's
kinder to avoid it or soft pedal it or not be as direct.
And what you teach in a very effective way is that it's actually one of the cruelest things you can do to somebody to lead them on to not tell them the truth to lie to their face and treat them one way but then go behind closed doors and actually complain about what they're doing and not tell them wholeheartedly
and that somewhere along the line we have confused kindness with actually lying to people.
And that's actually cruel in one of the worst ways especially for people that you love.
Whenever you skirt around the truth whenever you come at a conversation in a very indirect way you are saying to them I don't believe you're emotionally strong enough to handle this versus me saying Mel I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it.
Now you strengthen them and often what you say you're giving them the armor to handle it.
You're giving them the backpack for the trip that they're about to be on.
Oh I love that. And you know what else I loved is I love that thing you added there.
So you I want to make sure that as you're listening you are sticking these takeaways into that backpack that Jefferson just alluded to.
And so you said first of all that you just go right in like just jump right into the deep end of the pool.
Don't be tap dancing around the topic and delay getting to it.
This is not going to be an easy conversation.
But then you just added this thing that I loved which is but I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it and I want you to hear the truth or I want you to know how I feel about this or I you don't have to like it but you need to know this and you just lifted me up a little bit when you said
I'm telling you this because I think you can handle it.
And that makes me go yeah I think I can too.
So lay it on me even though it's going to suck.
Yeah exactly. You have to in many ways.
What you say to them is going to give them the value that you want them to hold.
So I'm telling you this because I know you believe in transparency.
I'm coming to you with this and I know it's not fun to talk about you're somebody who can handle it.
I know you have big shoulders.
You tell them the quality that you want them to have and they and they will rise up to it.
They'll stand up straight into it.
Oh I love that. You tell someone the qualities that you want them to have and people rise up into it.
Every time when you say something to them for example let's say Mel I know that you're somebody that takes value in people's words or that you value patience.
They go oh yeah and in their mind they're thinking yeah oh yeah I'm patient.
Yeah hey Greg I'm telling you this because I know you you have an open mind.
All of a sudden Greg is like I do have an open mind.
Yes I do. So it is you tweak the you can do that and same thing when you walk into a room.
So if you don't feel comfortable saying it directly about the person you can say what this room is.
What do you mean. You walk in say I want to make sure that this room is one that I can be entirely truthful in.
So where would you use that like at work.
Yeah let's say you're in somebody's office.
It doesn't have to be like the room of truth.
I'm just saying wherever you are.
You say it to yourself.
You say that. Out loud.
I want to make sure that this is a place of honesty.
I want to make sure that I'm speaking in a place that's free to say what I need to say.
Are we good with that.
And they go. Yeah. I love this because you know in the lawyer speak you're basically leading witness.
Oh yeah. But it works like a charm and I've never really thought about that as a strategy to tell people how I want you to react to something.
And you add that on to what I call a frame in the in the conversation.
So you tell somebody you go a step further and that is you tell them how you want the conversation to end.
OK so tell me this.
So let's say you made a comment at dinner.
Yes. Last night. OK yes.
So and it's this concept of you tell them what you want to talk about.
You tell them how you want the feel after you end the conversation and you get their agreement to it.
You'd step into it and say I like to talk to you about a comment you made last night at dinner and I want to walk away from that conversation knowing that this isn't a topic you're going to bring up again in front of other people.
That sounds good. That sounds like I'm in trouble just yet.
So now I'm really going I'm not going to bring it up ever again.
But you get what I mean.
Let's say a comment that you made at a meeting last week and I want to make sure that you and I are on the same wavelength the next meeting that we have.
Does that work. And they go that works and now you have a frame and now you know exactly what the conversation is about and what it's not about because if you talk about everything then you really talk about nothing.
You've had those meetings where all right everybody we got a lot to do today.
We have a lot to talk about and you leave those meetings feeling like you like every meeting.
You didn't talk about anything.
Yes. That's every meeting that I lead.
So now I'm going to use your technique.
Question for you. How do you talk to somebody that you don't like.
Nobody wants to feel fake.
But what do you do.
Well if you're in a position where you have to talk to somebody you don't like.
Yes. That does not give you any reason to be less likable.
It's that mentality of you don't argue with a fool because onlookers won't know the difference.
I'm afraid I said that quote but it's that idea of if you're talking to somebody you don't like we are going to talk to them as if you do.
How do you do that.
You just be who you are.
Understand that you're not trying to convince the other person like you or convince yourself to like the other person.
You're convincing the people around you because they're watching you.
They're watching how you talk to somebody.
They're watching how you treat other people.
And if you need to just just go neutral.
Just just stick with basic facts instead of trying to get cute and make these offhand comments and roll your eyes and cross your arms instead just be very neutral in the conversation.
They ask you what time it is instead of going well you know if you're here or so you don't got to watch OK instead of doing that you just tell them the time be very quick with it.
Get in get out. You don't need to have more conversation than you need to but you never want to give somebody a reason especially somebody who's not in the conversation not to like you.
How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you.
Like picking on your weight or they're constantly like are you still single.
Like you know like you know like you know how people like especially people that you're close with have a way of belittling you.
What do you do in those situations.
When somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult hurtful comment you make them say it again because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment.
Is get that reaction out of you and instead you find a way to take all the fun out of it.
So when you ask them to repeat what they said you're not giving them that hit a dopamine that they were expecting from your reaction they're not getting that that response time from you instead you're delaying that gratification for them then it's just not worth it then it's just not fun.
And so when you ask them to repeat it and say I need you to say that again.
We need to roleplay this.
Sure I'm trying to think of a scenario just right there you're still single.
I need you to repeat that.
Yeah so exactly I'm not going to want to say that again because now that spotlight is on me.
And then also what you'd lead up with that is you ask questions of intent for example did you say that to hurt me.
And now it's this mirror that they feel like why did I say that.
Oh okay and then they start to backtrack then you don't have to say anything.
So if somebody says to you oh so you're still single.
I need you to say that again.
Most likely they're not going to say that again but if they do then you can even repeat what they said I'm still single that's what you asked me and all of a sudden they realize this isn't fun.
They're not going to ask that kind of thing again or you just ask that question of did you say that to embarrass me.
Did you say that to offend me.
Oh no no no I didn't say that.
What I meant was and all of a sudden they're backing away because they know you're going to stand your ground.
Wow this is like very eye -opening because I can see both situations where I need to use it and I can see situations where I probably say things and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids that probably feels belittling.
I can think about like our daughter out in Los Angeles and every time I see her she's wearing a piece of clothing that I don't recognize.
And so I think to myself and oftentimes I will say is that new.
And I'm thinking in my mind where where do you get the money for this.
You know like that kind of thing.
And then she's like yeah I thrifted it.
And there's this little tiff thing but if she were to say to me.
Yeah if she were to ask you.
Are you trying to embarrass me.
Exactly. Are you trying to insinuate something.
Are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me.
Because you're right.
The question. Is what I'm saying on the surface.
But what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.
It's that mirror. Yes.
Yes. So it takes away the power of their insult.
Wow. When you can take all the fun out of it you take all the oxygen out of their room and they realize that they are not going to be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.
How do you respond to disrespect.
A lot of silence. So often if you just wait 10 seconds.
That you're going to add distance between what they said.
And now you're going to respond.
Because what they're wanting when somebody is disrespectful is the same way with belittling.
They're saying this to get something out of you because in that moment they're feeling something whether it's a fear and insecurity whatever it is.
You're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are.
You're not going to be on the same level.
So somebody says something disrespectful you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward.
And then you're going to say something to the effect of that's below.
My standard for response and then all of a sudden they feel like the dynamic has been flipped something as simple as that all of a sudden you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way.
And so now you're taking control of it now you're leaning into it what they thought was meant as a disrespect they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.
I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother and I said to her you know like how did it go and she said well it was fine but it's my mother.
And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant like so much so that the owner came over and said something to her.
Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful is there something that you can say to somebody in that situation.
Depends how your relationship is with that person I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting you don't join in it and you make it clear that that is not your behavior so you're going to be person that is kind to this person.
So I've had it before my grandfather came with me to Walmart this is a terrible time and he was he was in a bad mood and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to but I was the one that was.
Thank you so much for helping us I appreciate it, thank you so much being overly hey I understand thank you and then you have that conversation I had to have that conversation with my grandfather and how did you do that I had to put a boundary a very firm boundary of if this is the way you're going
to talk to people I can't come with you.
If you don't change the tone of what you're talking to people I can't I can't come and so it very was what am I saying you're not being respectful to people yes I am I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people.
It's the people you love and often you have to be there the biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them and so I love my grandfather I want other people to love him.
And that means I also have to make sure that I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct if this is how you're talking to people.
Has he changed yes.
Why also just don't go to Walmart so.
Jefferson the next question I want to ask you is how you can communicate in a way that everybody can understand you but I gotta take a quick break, so why don't you think about that while the person listening listens to a word from our sponsors don't you dare go anywhere we have so many more incredible
takeaways from the amazing Jefferson Fisher stay with us.
Welcome back it's your friend Mel Robbins you and I are here with the amazing Jefferson Fisher I love the specific takeaways that he's teaching us about how you can become a better communicator so Jefferson what are two ways that you can express your thoughts and feelings so that everyone can understand you
better. It's simple and it's silly it's so simple it's just saying I feel instead of I think.
It is I feel if that is a feeling that you actually have, in other words separating the person from the problem, for example, let's say you need to criticize proposal that somebody had our presentation.
Okay, instead of using the word you with it your presentation that's going to get them defensive instead make it a third person the proposal the presentation the presentation could benefit from a few changes.
Instead of your proposal wasn't that great, so you find ways of objectifying the you're separating the person from the problem itself so that's a way of expressing how you feel about a certain thing.
Can I stop you right there of course, because I immediately see an application as a parent or as a roommate.
Where as a parent, personally, I will throw myself under the bus here, I have never done that your room is a mess your stuff is everywhere it's accusation accusation accusation so how would you use this yeah technique.
To be more effective at communicating when you're talking to kids or you're talking to somebody that you live with and you want to use this strategy of removing the kind of you're wrong right from the thing that you want them to do.
Can I give the list of thought yeah you can do whatever you want so let's say well you and I are at a table right now and let's say you and I are disagreeing about something okay and in the middle of the room let's just put this as the problem.
Okay, this is the problem this is how I see the problem okay you're gonna argue this is how you see the problem right great now the issue between us is not each other.
It's the problem but in the real conversation it's hard to get out of that instead it's me pulling my chair and say welcome over here come sit next to me let's talk about this problem we're gonna do about this so instead of your rooms not clean.
I see the room is still isn't clean what should we do about it it's that idea of trying to get them to let's look at the problem together.
How do you find ways to that that's what I mean by separating the person from the problem instead of getting onto you and say no you're lazy you don't understand you're so stupid you're such an idiot instead of that the problem is the problem on the table come sit next to me and let's talk about the problem.
Instead of opponents or teammates.
Your kids are screwed I mean I you are I had this whole visual as you were saying this of me like frustrated yelling or stressed or exacerbated about like the pile laundry or the state of the room or whatever it is and then making a fuss about the problem.
Right only put somebody on the defensive every time versus like imagine if you're standing in front of the kitchen sink with your family or you're standing in front of the living room with your roommate right and you're like.
This room is pretty messy what should we do about it.
Exactly completely different approach without a doubt and it's this idea of having kind of a need check of saying let's take a time out.
I want to make sure that I have time with you all to do X activities we also have a need to do the dishes I need help with that.
Or I have a need for your room to be clean I have a need for this house to be clean what's your name.
How can we help with that so when you use the word help people love to be helpful.
I have this ability to instead of just attacking them that you don't understand you don't get it you're lazy or you don't care.
Those are all words that just cut for no reason when your problem is not them the problem is the issue.
Wow you could use this with anything anything you could use this if somebody's playing too much video games you could use this if somebody's not taking care of themselves the problem isn't the person.
It's the issue that is bothering you and this need that you have to see somebody they're doing better or to see the house picked up or to see like people helping out that's freaking genius.
I'm a little concerned because.
Given that I'm a talker it's easy for me to take this advice and just go blah blah like I can apply it immediately because I am not uncomfortable.
Talking to other people and I haven't had social anxiety since law school.
But there are a ton of people that listen who do and I can think of a particular friend of mine who is so amazing.
And the second she's around other people she just kind of clams up.
Do you have any specific strategies or advice for somebody who would like to be better.
About just speaking and feeling more confident about it or feeling like I can display authority, a certain way if there are certain phrases or strategies like what how do you coach people and becoming more comfortable in that regard.
I coach people the same way I coach my legal clients okay and I walk them through a series of steps because you know as well as I do.
When we send somebody out to be cross examined we're giving them up to the wolves right in many ways I mean their credibility you have somebody who wants to hurt their credibility there's somebody who wants to prove them wrong call them a liar so how do you.
equip them with the armor to take that on some of the basics of what I talk about is I want them to feel that they can say things very succinctly meaning.
Often people who are nervous to talk have that social anxiety they say too much then they felt like they didn't say anything at all afterwards and that just means they're watering down what they're saying.
Okay let's put this in a scenario okay so sorry to bother email but I have this well I mean it's not really this thing but it's okay so essentially what I what I really want to say is this isn't really something I'm too too comfortable with.
You know, but I mean that is what you see the 99 % of yes 1 % says takes a breath, let's their breath be the first word that they say.
And says, this is not something i'm comfortable with period, you see how different it is same thing same boat I mean it's the same objective.
One is water down the other is served to you straight and so you find ways to eliminate the water from your drink so to speak you got to get rid of all the ice cubes the over apologizing the putting your words down before you even get them out that's where you experience real growth and real change
in your sentences. I want to make sure that as you were listening to Jefferson you actually heard that because the single most important thing that you said was taking a breath is the first word exactly and so if you're somebody that just opens your mouth and all kinds of stuff starts coming out and then
you start to of course feel more anxious because you've lost control of what you're saying.
And then that just makes you keep going and then you get flustered and then your face turns red and then now you're like i'm never talking again.
I didn't even say what I meant to say yeah your breath is the first word and then you're coaching us to really think about what do you actually want to say and so for somebody that has a hard time in a social setting.
And you are walking into a party you don't know a lot of people you're walking into a networking meeting you don't know a lot of people and you want to prepare yourself.
To be able to say something is there an opening line or a way that you recommend that people start to just practice the art of just talking to other people because a lot of people find it very challenging to just strike up a conversation with someone.
Yeah that that is difficult I would say that just focus on one person okay even though it's a room of plenty you can be in a room and feel like you talk to everybody but you just scratch the surface trade that for a real conversation with just one person.
So there's plenty of times where you've left a meeting or you left an event you go man I really like this person who I got to spend equality six minutes with versus just a bunch of pleasantries of oh hey how you're doing has your kids we should get together and you never get together.
Right so I would tell them one quantity does not equal quality when it comes to networking or any big rooms like that it's it's not how it should work.
Just focus on one person to if you want to break the ice about something you can always start with something of just how they're doing in their life what they're excited about what they're looking forward to.
Okay when you ask the just how are you people talk about the past they rarely talk about the future the future is a lot more exciting because then you can go about something people typically tend to speak ill of what's been going on.
They're bad on it they're more negative on it they're typically more positive about the future.
Oh, that's a great tip so you take a breath and then you ask somebody so what are you excited about her why are you here what would you say if you were walking into a networking meeting.
I would say what are you most excited about today.
Something as simple as that.
Wow, I'm most excited about talking to you, Jeff.
Yeah, same here. I love that tip and I know as you're listening, you are loving everything that Jefferson is sharing with you as well and speaking of sharing while you listen to a short word from our sponsors take a minute and just share this episode with somebody who can use all of these amazing strategies
that Jefferson is teaching us today.
And don't you dare go anywhere because Jefferson and I, we will be waiting for you after a short break.
Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and I am loving the time that you and I are spending together with Jefferson Fisher.
Jefferson one of my favorite videos of yours is where you give advice about answering the question how are you.
I mean you hear it every day.
It's the first thing we tend to ask anybody.
You can handle that question a lot better if instead of answering that question talking about the past.
In other words, typically people like to say I'm good.
I'm fine. It's been okay today, or the other day in paradise kind of living the dream.
It's talk about what you're excited about.
Instead of being backward looking look forward you tell them what you're looking forward to.
I'm looking forward to seeing my kids today.
I'm excited about the game on Friday.
If you talk about the future, it's always a lot more exciting.
And also, don't be afraid to be truthful.
So, if somebody's asking you how you are, instead of just saying, I'm actually doing really bad it's okay to say, I'm just feeling a little overcast today.
You put it in terms of the weather.
Oh, it's a lot easier for people that you don't have to worry about the little details.
You don't have to worry about the little complexities of do I need to explain to them everything that's happening that day?
Just put it in terms of the weather.
That's kind of an overcast day for me.
It's a sunny day. Bad thunderstorms for me today.
Find the different ways to talk about the weather and instantly they know how you're doing.
That's really cool.
I'm realizing that I'm a massive oversharer.
So, when somebody asked me how are you?
I go into a diatribe of information that they don't need.
Well, it's not that they don't need.
Oversharing can be a hindrance in the long term.
It often stems from what I've seen with clients is this need to feel believed.
In other words, you feel like they're not buying all what you're saying so you need to say more so that they know how knowledgeable you are.
You know how much you know.
But the weird thing about that is typically the more you say something, the less it appears you know about it.
So, the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie.
And so you have to be careful about oversharing.
And what I like to tell my clients is instead of being a waterfall, be a well, you know, be the place that they can draw information from rather than feeling like you have to overwhelm them and put them on the life raft.
Jefferson, you just changed my life.
Oh, good. Because I am an avalanche and a waterfall.
And I love this idea that you could be a well and keep it closer to the chest and people can dip in and get the information that you want to give them.
A bucket full instead of just barfing all the information out.
That's another way to put it.
Can you give us advice on how you stand up for yourself?
So, one is, like we talked about, let your breath be the first word that you say.
Because what that does is tell people that you heard them and that you're acknowledging.
There's a difference between if you just asked me a question.
You say, hey, how are you doing, Jefferson?
Go good. Good. Real good.
Real good. I didn't really listen versus if you asked me that question again, how are you doing, Jefferson?
And I said, I'm good.
I'm real good. Now it feels like you've stepped into it.
Often when it comes to standing your ground, it is just slowing down your words.
I'm feeling like you have to rush anything.
Nobody can make you say anything that you don't want to say.
If you just find ways to give it a beat and figure it out, you're going to be a lot better off.
Too often people wait till they're talking to figure out what they want to say.
Oh my God, that's me.
And so they take off.
It's like going to the airport and just flying and getting on the plane.
And you go, where you landing?
I have no idea. I just got on the plane.
I don't know. I get in the car and like, where are you going?
Who knows? I'm just going.
I say all that to say, like they finally kind of just going to circles on their plane and they're waiting.
You got to help people land the runway.
Often. I feel like that is me at work and in life.
But I'm one of these people that needs to talk it out.
And where I start is never where I land.
And I'm realizing as I'm listening to you, that there's a lot of pre -work that I could do before I walk into a meeting or before I just start blabbing with my family.
Yeah. And it would be way more effective and helpful for people if I actually knew where I was going before I opened my mouth.
It always helps to have a goal in the conversation.
It helps to have conversational values.
It helps to have conversational goals.
So talk to me about that.
What is what does that mean to have a conversational goal and a conversational value?
If you go back to the original thing that you teach us, which is you get to choose what kind of person you are based on the things that you say and how you say them.
Conversational goals is simply where you want to end the conversation.
You want to make sure you understand what this person meant by this comment.
That's your goal. Often we start talking and then we lose track of where we're going because we're listening to respond.
We're not listening to understand.
Often when you go to trial and you're listening to a witness in their direct examination where bad attorneys go wrong is they just start planning out their next question.
Regardless of what the witness says versus waiting to hear that whole answer and adapting to it.
So conversational goals is just simply where you're headed.
It's the destination of where you're going.
Conversational values are how you feel authentic to yourself to get there.
So I have conversational values that I use in every conversation that I have to make sure that no matter what happens in the conversation, I can't control anything else but myself.
It's my values that drive my response.
For example, one of my key conversational values is if I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse.
In other words, if we can't meet in the middle, if we can't connect in some way, I'm still going to be a lighthouse for them.
I'm still going to be a source of light that if they need to come back, they know where I'm at.
I have another one that I use and that is if there's room for kindness, I will use it.
I get that from my mama.
I'd come to her with a complaint and she'd say, well, were you kind?
I'd say, mom, you'll understand this person, this person, this person.
And she'd go, well, I still think you should be kind.
It's like, you know what?
If there's always room for kindness, if there's any room at all, that's a chance to use it.
The last one I use is tell them who I am without telling them my name.
So that's that idea of letting my words inform them of who I am without anything of my identification or my status or where I am.
Is it the value of how I make people feel in my words?
So how do you apply those values?
I'm having a conversation with opposing attorney.
He says something that eats, you know how some of them do.
They tell you how great their case is.
Right. I mean, every case they have is full of sunshine, no bruises.
So you have that chance to say, well, could I just give them a piece of my mind and tell them how bad their case is and how I'm going to railroad over them?
Or is there any room for kindness in this conversation?
And if there is any room at all, then I'm going to use it.
And it gives me the chance to say, you know what, Howard, I got to tell you, you're great at your job and you really care about your clients.
I can tell, I can really tell you care about your clients.
And he goes, well, yeah, you know, I do.
I really do. And I feel great about that.
And all of a sudden he goes, you know what, in that rule 11 you want it.
I think we can agree to that.
That's no problem. If I can inject my values, I don't have to worry about what to say.
I don't have to worry about some zinger act to descend.
If there's room for kindness, I'll use it.
So you find ways to use values to control the conversation.
Well, you never regret not being kind.
That's a great one.
Yeah. And I always regret when I'm not.
Yeah. And so one of the huge takeaways that I have is that a lot of us don't stop and think about what the intention is of a conversation and how we want to be perceived and what we want to demonstrate about ourselves by being in it.
And it's everywhere from how you walk into a meeting.
If you think about what you want to get out of it or how you want to be perceived, then that actually dictates how you're going to show up.
Like you can use this in absolutely any area of your life.
And I think most of us are just sort of going through the day and surviving.
And there's a completely different way to think about the way that you communicate.
I 100 % agree in that if you look at where you are in life from your romantic relationships to where you are at work, there is a large percentage of that that is solely based upon what you said to that person.
That just meant there are thoughts that came from your brain, that to your mouth that you spoke out loud that have influenced where you are.
You said something to that person and they liked it.
And now they want to date you.
And they said something you liked.
And there it is. You met over coffee at the airport or where you are at work at that promotion that you want.
You have ways of just simply using the power of your words to influence everything.
And it can change. Even if you said things in the past that you regret or things you wish you would have said better, you can change everything about your life by what you say next.
Are there a couple steps that somebody could take to just walk themselves through the kind of person that they want to be through their words?
Because I feel like there's this step, Jefferson, that we don't really take with intention of getting clear that I want to be this kind of person.
And it's one thing to kind of use kind words.
It's a whole other thing to have a reckoning with yourself where you say, this is an area of my life that I want to take control of and I can take control of it.
Are there particular questions that somebody could ask themselves that help them get to what their values might be in terms of how they want to change the way they communicate?
What they want the world to think about them?
Like I often think when I go into a meeting, what do I want people to say when I leave?
And it's a trick that I learned when I was a public defender working for legal aid, which is what do I want the jury to say the second that they get out of this courtroom and they get into that meeting with one another?
What do I want them to say?
And I use that now before I go into a meeting.
What do I want them to think about me?
And then I align the way that I show up based on the impact that I want to create in that room.
I love that. I do. I'm very similar.
What energy am I bringing to the room?
If everybody's at a table and you walk in and you're coming in, what do you want the feeling to be?
Oh, this person's here.
What's that energy that you're bringing?
Because every one of us has a different energy that affects the room that they're in.
Is it, oh no, somebody's here.
Or, oh great, somebody's here.
Or is it the, oh man, somebody's here.
Everyone's a little bit different.
The biggest tool that somebody can use is ask the question to themselves and also to the person that loves them the most more than anybody.
Who do my words say that I am?
Who do my words say that I am?
And that is a great question to ask yourself or you ask somebody else.
Who do my words say that I am?
Because often what you say doesn't match exactly with who you want to be.
I would encourage somebody to ask a friend, a spouse, the way that I speak, what kind of energy does that give?
Does that give anxiety?
Do I rush my words?
Do I speak too fast?
Do I speak too slow?
How do you want to tweak the room to understand how you want to communicate with that next person?
So I would encourage in terms of action steps.
It's the question that you need to answer of yourself of who do you want to be with your words and then what words are you going to use?
I think what you have to say is awesome.
Think long -term of just kind of call your shot.
I want to leave that room feeling like I am somebody who's confident.
Right. I think it's such an important point because you do have so much power over your reputation.
You do have power over the impact that you make with other people.
And taking a beat before you walk in the room or you walk in the meeting or you walk into the party or you walk up to the sidelines at your kid's soccer game to really remind yourself what kind of person do I want to be?
And now let me align what I say and the energy that I bring to represent that.
Yeah, that's the crazy part about it.
It's also the most simple part about it.
And that is it is simply within your control.
When you walk away from an interaction from somebody and you go, I really like that person.
What was it? What was it that you liked?
They said something nice about me.
They smiled. They didn't criticize other people.
It is all has to do with your communication.
And exactly how we started today was their experience of you is going to be almost entirely the words that you use right in front of them.
And how they made that person feel.
How you made that person feel right then and there.
Love this. What are your best tips to be more effective at communicating at work?
Tip number one would be have something to learn, not something to prove.
So anytime you're in an argument and it's not just work or really anything.
When you're in a conversation with somebody, have something to learn from them rather than something to prove.
Even if you want to prove yourself, I want to prove who I am.
That doesn't come from you pushing your own agenda.
It comes from you being curious about other people.
And so if you want to be known as somebody who's respectful in the workplace or somebody who's kind, you use kind words.
If you want to know somebody's respectful, you use respectful words.
So that means if you talk about somebody and gossip and do something negative, that's what people are going to associate you with because it goes even wider than that.
If other people associate with you, that bad person, well then people are going to think differently about them.
So it's these circles of communication of what you said, oh, you're friends with so and so.
You're friends with so and so that are going to influence that.
If you want to be more respected at work, use words that show more authority.
You can use words like direction.
I like to set the direction of this conversation.
I don't like the direction of where this is going.
All of a sudden it sounds like you're captain of the ship.
You're just using the word direction.
So you find ways that can influence who you want to be for good.
What's one change somebody can make starting today to communicate more effectively with their family?
When you need to have this hard conversation at all times, show them that you love them, that you care.
And you do that with the words, meaning you tell them that I'm telling you this because I love you.
Often I know people and you know people that they had really hard childhoods and they just never heard that from a parent that I'm proud of you, that I love you.
So you find ways to inject that into the conversation.
I'm talking to you right now because I want us to learn from this conversation, or I'm learning to when you're having that you need to deescalate an argument with a spouse or a kid.
Hey, I'm learning to.
This is my first time to be a parent.
This is your first time to be a kid.
I'm learning to. Don't be afraid to apologize.
Don't be afraid to own that.
I think from a position of strength, you can really, really own that apology when you need to.
I'm stealing that. I often say I'm doing the best I can, but I like I'm learning too.
Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.
It's good for spouses too.
You can be dating forever, but as soon as you get married and live together, I mean, it's a whole new world.
It is. I once I just recently heard somebody say that second marriages are amazing, particularly if it's with the same person and this idea that any moment you can change your relationship because you can change yourself and how you communicate.
And that's the only thing you can control.
I can't control the other person.
You can only control how you respond to it.
I am going to steal everything that you just taught me.
And I'm so excited that you get to listen and be here and learn from Jefferson too.
We're going to be leaving her going direction, kindness.
And I got to tell you this.
What are your parting words?
To anybody who's listening, my parting words to you are this.
You have a power that you haven't tapped into yet.
And that is just the power of your words.
If you want to be seen as somebody who's strong, you use stronger words.
You want to be somebody who has seemed to be more decisive, somebody who stands up for themselves.
It is not a course you have to take.
It is not a book you have to read.
It is simply how you need to change the next word that comes out of your mouth.
It is something that can be learned at any point.
It doesn't matter how young you are to how old you are.
What you say next has the power to change anything.
And if you use it for good and you use it for light, you're always going to go right.
Oh my God, Jefferson.
I didn't mean for that to rhyme, but...
I love it. I like love you.
I know that sounds like creepy.
But you are a huge light.
Thank you. Thank you.
And my parting words to you.
I hope you take absolutely everything that Jefferson just shared with us and you use it.
You use it to create better relationships, to speak with others.
You use authority to have your words reflect the kind of person that you really want to be.
And in case no one else tells you this, I wanted to be sure to tell you I love you and I believe in you.
And I believe in your ability to create a better life.
And as Jefferson just taught you, it's all in the power of your words.
How cool is that? I'll see you in the next episode.
Cranking it down. Yeah, it's like you're right.
It's like the semi truck.
When it turns off, like...
Here comes the sneeze.
Excuse me. That one was for you, Kev.
Do you guys need another take?
Was that good? Kevin, you down?
Okay, great. Amazing, dude.
Thank you so much. There were so many tips.
I'm literally like, I need to do that.
It's been wonderful.
Thank you. Oh, and one more thing.
And no, this is not a blooper.
This is the legal language.
You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.
This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
I'm just your friend.
I am not a licensed therapist.
And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional.
Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.
Stitcher.
