Hey everyone.
It's Andrew here and you're listening to Chatterbox, the QLIPP series for upper intermediate English learners who want to take their fluency to the next level by listening to real, unedited conversations between native speakers.
Today, we're talking about algorithms.
You've probably heard that word before, but what does it actually mean?
Well, in short, an algorithm is a set of computer instructions that helps apps and websites decide what to show you.
They study what you click on, watch or buy and then use that information to predict what you'll want to see next.
Algorithms are behind almost everything we do online.
They choose the videos that appear in your social media feed, the shows that Netflix recommends, the songs that pop up in your playlist and even the ads that seem to know exactly what you're thinking about.
In a moment, I'll be joined by my co-host Anna, and together we'll talk about how algorithms work, how they influence us and what it's like living in a world that's run by them.
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Okay.
And now let's get started.
We'll welcome Anna to the conversation and we'll kick off our talk about algorithms.
Here we go.
Enjoy.
Hey there, Anna.
How's it going?
Hi, Andrew.
I'm very well.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
And I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
To be honest Anna, I think we could both say that we're not experts about algorithms, but it's like one of those words that you hear about all the time, right?
The algorithm, the algorithm.
And so I thought it could be fun to sort of break it apart and talk a little bit more about what algorithms are and how they affect us in our everyday lives.
Because I think it's one of those things that's happening all the time in the background.
You know, when we're using social media or we're watching Netflix or watching YouTube, or maybe even looking for a podcast to listen to an Apple podcasts like the algorithms are always at play in the background and they have an influence over us.
And I thought it could be fun to talk about how we think we're being influenced by the algorithms.
So yeah, I'm very excited for this conversation.
And I guess, Anna, maybe I'll just kick it off with a general question.
And that is, how do you think that algorithms affect you in your daily life?
Or have you noticed any algorithms that you're interacting with on a day-to-day basis?
By far the thing that I come across most in my daily routine is social media Instagram LinkedIn, for example.
So I really notice, for example, on the Instagram explore page, where it's showing me lots of new content that I haven't seen before.
I noticed that algorithm picking out the things that I have been browsing or videos that I've looked at, and it just reflects it back to me.
I have to say I'm really kind of actually quite ashamed of my Instagram feed.
You know, it's one of those things where you're like oh, I hope nobody sees this feed because it's just such stupid things like makeup beauty, I don't know, dogs or something like this.
It's so random and weird.
I'm like is this really me?
You kind of look at it and it's kind of almost reflecting back to you all your bad qualities.
I don't know, but yeah, I think that's probably the way that I see it most in my day-to-day life social media and also shopping as well.
Online shopping big time.
How so for shopping?
For example, when I buy beauty products because I love beauty, and it's terrible because if you go on Sephora, which is a huge company worldwide, and you buy something, and then it's like what about this?
Have you thought about this?
Ooh, try this.
And then you're like oh, a new thing that I didn't know that I needed, but now I need it which, of course, is totally unnecessary and I don't need it at all.
But it kind of gets you into that loop of thinking, oh, I need something else.
Oh, that's another thing I haven't seen.
So I have to admit that I have made some purchases that I definitely probably shouldn't have because of the algorithm.
I'm blaming the algorithm for that.
Definitely shaping my choices.
What about you, Andrew?
Well, it's interesting that you say that.
I think in a perfect world, the algorithm wouldn't make us buy things that we don't need, right?
It wouldn't recommend us things that we don't need.
From a consumer's point of view, that would be ideal.
It would show us products that we really need or that we would really find useful, and it would not promote products or things that we don't need.
But from a business perspective, then I can totally see how they want to show you things that you don't really need and try and make more sales, right.
So Yeah, there's two sides to every coin.
But yeah, it's funny that you mentioned the algorithm showing you some things that you don't really need.
Because actually, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this today, this topic today with you Anna, is because I had a funny experience recently.
And I was joking with my wife about this, where I was just scrolling through social media.
I
And suddenly Instagram started showing me content related to hair transplant surgeries.
And I thought, how does it know that I'm bald?
For listeners who haven't seen me before, I've lost my hair.
So how does it know that I'm bald?
And like, maybe it was just random, right?
Maybe it just throws it out there and I saw it and I was like, huh, what's this all about?
And clicked on it.
Maybe, maybe that's the case.
But it was spooky to me.
I thought, wow, the algorithm really knows my profile.
Like it probably knows my age, my race, that I'm an English speaker, that I live abroad.
And now it knows that I'm bald too.
So I...
I clicked on the little video.
It was intriguing to me.
I watched it and I was like, huh, kind of interesting.
And Anna, it was a mistake, because now my whole feed is just like it's sending me videos about hair transplants, about medication for regrowing your hair, about people's journeys regrowing their hair and growing their beards and all of these hair related things.
I'm seeing videos for toupees and wigs.
Like it's really wild.
You were mentioning earlier that it's kind of funny, like almost embarrassing, if we saw each other's Instagram.
Yeah, it's kind of really private, you know?
It's kind of like, it's really private.
And sometimes my partner sort of says, oh, let me have a look at your Instagram.
I'm like, oh no, like it's private.
You can't see my feed.
Because he has a totally different feed as well.
This is a thing that's crazy.
He's like, oh, have you seen this video?
And I'm like, no, why would I see that video?
Maybe it's something to do with the gym or working out or something like this.
And I'm like but of course I haven't seen that because the algorithm's just not going to show me it, because maybe I would find it interesting, but it's not something that I've necessarily looked at before or whatever.
I actually really don't like the Instagram explore page.
I don't think it's a very good algorithm, I have to say.
And I think it just brings the worst out of people sometimes.
Honestly, I really do.
I also would like somebody to confirm maybe the listeners can are our phones listening to us or not?
I need somebody to confirm, because sometimes when you say things like mattress mattress, and then suddenly bing on your explore page, there's a mattress.
So I need somebody to confirm.
Are they listening to us on our phones?
Is it influencing the algorithm or not?
Yeah.
I think without a doubt it is, without a doubt in my mind.
Maybe that's me being a little bit of a conspiracy theorist.
I'm not sure, but I think it must be without a doubt, because they can get that data and that data is so valuable.
And, you know, I can just say one word to my iPhone here and then it will talk back with me.
So it's always on.
It's always listening.
And another place where we often see algorithms at work is in music apps, maybe YouTube or Netflix or other streaming services.
And it's pretty cool sometimes, I think.
This is one of the ways that I think algorithms are really really neat actually is it can recommend you content that it thinks you will like.
So I'm curious have you ever found like a great new TV series to watch, or maybe a new YouTuber that you enjoy, or a new band that you like to listen to?
I love the Netflix algorithm.
It's incredible.
It was a Scandinavian film.
And it sort of pops up and it's like, we think you might like this.
And they were absolutely right.
I loved it.
It was fantastic.
And I never, ever would have found it if... they hadn't recommended it to me.
So I love those types of algorithms.
Give me a Netflix algorithm all day because it always gives me something new to discover.
What about you, Andrew?
Yeah, so recently over the last six months or so, I transitioned from using Spotify to Apple Music.
And I have to be honest and say the Apple Music algorithm hasn't been very good for me, Anna.
And I think maybe that's just because of where I live here in Korea.
It thinks that I wanna listen to a lot of popular K-pop, top 100 kind of music, which isn't really necessarily my style.
So the algorithm for Apple Music isn't so good, but for Spotify when I was a Spotify user was so good.
And I found so much new music.
It was amazing.
That's kind of one of my hobbies.
Maybe I could say it's not really a hobby, but I do enjoy looking for new music and listening to new bands and also finding old music that I've never listened to before.
And Spotify was really, really good at that.
So I think the Spotify algorithm is super on point and it's almost making me want to go back to Spotify, to be honest with you.
I'm kind of flip-flopping between Spotify and Apple Music these days, but...
I might have to go back to Spotify just for the algorithm.
But also on YouTube as well.
I've discovered lots of great creators and interesting vlogs and interesting music just thanks to the recommendation system on YouTube.
So I think...
It's really great.
I have to say I'm a little bit skeptical when it comes to the algorithm trying to push products or trying to push a political agenda and influence me that way.
However, when it's recommending me a band or recommending me a movie to watch or a YouTuber to watch, something like that that really matches up with what I like and my interests, then I'm all for it.
I think algorithms are great for that.
Absolutely.
And I think if it's for entertainment music, films it can be super useful and handy and it can introduce you to loads of new stuff, like you said Andrew, as well.
I guess it just depends.
Whereas on Instagram or maybe shopping, I see it more as a... a nuisance maybe or not necessarily a nuisance it can still help but it's something to take into account a little bit more whereas you know if i'm just sitting down to watch a film like sure recommend me something so i think it really depends where the algorithm is and i guess it comes back to that question of who is it that is deciding what the algorithm is right and Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, these algorithms are designed by humans, right?
For now.
Maybe by the time this episode is actually released, there'll be a big amount of AI involved in this as well.
And that's like a whole other can of worms that maybe we could save for a different episode.
But, As of this exact moment that we are recording, mostly the algorithms are programmed by humans and designed by humans.
And so that means that the programmer's biases are included in the algorithms.
And so I don't know, maybe a programmer has a brother who plays in a certain band and then he kind of tweaks the algorithm just to push his brother's band a little bit at you, you know, on Spotify.
Like I could see that happening maybe.
And that's just a small example.
Who knows about how these things can be tweaked and manipulated?
And would we ever know as consumers?
Like we wouldn't know that, right?
Like i don't know, maybe i found a band that i liked and it was the programmers brothers band, like it could happen feasibly.
So yeah, we have to be aware that these things are created by people and that they do have an influence over us, and that there is some kind of bias in there that could affect us.
So It's always good to be critical, I guess.
And it's kind of funny that we're talking about this right now, because I'm realizing that I haven't really been too critical of the algorithm up until maybe this point.
I don't know.
Have you ever thought about that?
Have you ever thought about like the agenda behind what's fed to you on your Instagram or your social media feed?
This is a thing.
Not really.
And that's the, I guess, the scary part is that they just kind of slide into the background.
You don't really think about it.
It's just part of our day-to-day life.
Of course there are some people making some noise in these spaces about the ethics around algorithms, and maybe AI kind of gets brought into that conversation as well.
But honestly, not really.
And that's the scary part is that they're just kind of playing off in the background.
And maybe we don't always see the potential consequences of that.
I actually wanted to just bring up a term in english which i think is really useful for you guys to know which people talk about when they discuss algorithms, which is an echo chamber.
Echo chamber people talk about this term when, for example, you're on, let's say, x And you are constantly reading the news, but you're only reading the news that you agree with.
That reinforces your opinion or your view.
And essentially what you create is your own echo chamber where you're not actually hearing different opinions and different points of view.
So you just embed your view even further.
So I think that maybe Andrew, that's a useful term to throw into the mix here, just because it's very common for people to talk about the echo chamber being a concern or a side effect of these negative side effect, let's say, of algorithms.
I think, when it comes to politics, for example, the algorithm can be.
I don't want to say that it's all bad, but it seems like it can have a pretty bad effect on certain groups in the general population.
And it can push people to more extreme views, whether that is to the right or to the left.
I think it works across the political spectrum.
But yeah, an echo chamber is when you just start to see content that aligns with your opinions and viewpoints and perspectives on the world.
And then you see more and more of that content.
And it feels like everybody out there in the world that's online agrees with you.
But it's not really that everybody agrees with you.
It's just that you're getting fed content that makes you happy and that you align with.
And so it can really distort our image of reality.
And I mean sometimes I find it when I talk with my friends, or even sometimes my family members, I feel like oh, you guys are hanging out in a little bit of an echo chamber.
And maybe this is why you have this political opinion is because you've just I don't know been spending too much time online in the wrong area of the internet and haven't been interacting with the counterpoint or the counter view of.
So yeah, this is another thing that we have to be really, really aware of.
And yeah, it's always good to be exposed to multiple different viewpoints.
But I think that's getting harder and harder to do now, right?
Like it seems like in our more polarized world.
You know, we read the news from a website that aligns with our political views, and we don't even go to the opposite side of the spectrum to see what their viewpoint is.
And it's harder to find the opposite side of the spectrum because the algorithm doesn't present us with it.
So definitely I think this is something that we have to be cautious about is spending too much time in echo chambers.
Yeah, and the algorithm essentially is just based on attention, right?
A lot of the social media platforms.
It's just about what holds your attention, because they want to keep you on the app, or whatever it is, as long as possible so that they can advertise to you or whatever.
So they're not necessarily showing you something that... what they don't want to show you is something that you're then going to say oh don't want to listen to that and then you close the app and you leave so they're going to show you something that's going to keep your attention and hopefully you'll stay in the app a little bit longer so what are they going to show you they're going to show you something that you like so it's it's always going to just reinforce this rather than maybe throwing in something that might be useful or that might like you said show a different perspective or whatever because we won't pay attention to it so It's just what's going to hold your attention, essentially.
And that doesn't necessarily mean it's good for you.
It just means that it holds your attention.
That's the thing.
Yeah.
Well, speaking of that, Anna, I'm curious, have you ever heard of the term rage bait?
Rage bait yes, so attention is very interesting, because something that draws your attention can be something that you find interesting and lovely and wonderful but, on the other hand, it could also be the opposite.
It could be something that makes you feel super angry right, and something that makes your blood boil, and so we call this kind of content rage bait, and different social media sites have different amounts of this.
Some of them have a lot, And your algorithm will actually maybe show you something.
Maybe, for example, you have one political perspective, but the algorithm will show you the most extreme viewpoint from the opposite perspective.
And it just makes you feel angry when you see it.
And it makes you feel like you want to comment and be like, oh, this is so stupid.
These people are so dumb, you know and like.
The purpose of this is that, while it's making your blood boil and making you feel so angry, you're actually spending a lot of time in the app and you're interacting with the app.
And this rage bait content can also be addicting somewhat, I think.
So I try to stay away from that kind of content because I don't think it's very healthy to consume too much.
But it's out there for sure.
And that's kind of human nature as well.
With humans, we're naturally drawn to negative things.
We have a negativity bias.
So we'll naturally see things that are maybe bad or whatever.
And we're drawn to that in terms of our attention.
But I know what you mean.
It's very common now as well.
I think that's become more popular.
People will actually create content purely to evoke a rage bait reaction, which is kind of crazy to me.
I can't really imagine the mindset around that.
Like I'm going to create something that's going to make people angry, but it's true that it gets people's attention.
And then the algorithm sees that you're looking at it and then it just fills your feed with it.
And then it kind of feels like you can't.
And sometimes with the, with the algorithm on social media.
You know it takes some time for it to change and it does kind of evolve and change.
But you know, for me sometimes I have to look at like lots of other different stuff and then it starts to change a little bit or it will notice that the things that I'm not it's presenting to me I'm not really liking anymore.
So it kind of starts to throw some different things in there.
But I have heard a lot of people.
I have to say I don't really use TikTok, but a lot of people have told me that the TikTok algorithm is like crazy.
Like you watch two videos and then your whole feed is like it just knows exactly who you are.
After a little bit.
So I don't know if you guys use TikTok or not or whatever social media platforms you use, but I've heard that the algorithm there is like crazy.
Like it knows you straight away.
Yeah, I've heard a lot about the TikTok algorithm as well.
And I guess I'm like an ancient old person.
And maybe Anna, you are too, because we're both not on TikTok.
But I've actually heard, you know, like TikTok is an app that was originally a Chinese app, I believe.
And then there was an American version of it made or a Western version of it made.
But I heard that the algorithm is different in China and in the Western world where TikTok is used.
So I think the Chinese name and our Chinese listeners can correct my pronunciation here, but I believe it's called Douyin or Douyin, something like that.
And I heard that that algorithm is actually very positive and it shows you a lot of good content and positive content.
And like parents even will allow their kids to use it, because it will be like showing their kids great examples of like straight A students and how they study and like really sort of motivational good content to get their students to study hard and their kids to study hard.
Just as an example, whereas the Western version of TikTok often will go to more extreme places.
And there's a lot of political content on TikTok that really can polarize people and radicalize them in some way to go either more to the left or more to the right.
And there's rage bait content on the Western TikTok.
So I've heard because I'm not on there.
But I've heard with the Chinese version, you don't have as much of that.
So it would be interesting maybe some users who have tried both of the different styles of the app and have seen both algorithms if you guys could chime in and let us know if that's the case or if we're off base here.
But it just goes to show that you could have a similar app, but with a different algorithmic programming and a tweak to the algorithm can really get a totally different result from it.
So, Andrew, just before we wrap up, let me ask you one more question then.
What about big decisions?
Would you feel comfortable letting an algorithm make a big decision for you, like approving a loan, maybe even diagnosing an illness?
What are your thoughts on that?
I think if the algorithm has the final say, then it could be problematic, perhaps.
But using an algorithm to speed up a process, like maybe trying to get a mortgage for buying a home or something, or maybe even diagnosing an illness.
I think technology can have a big role to play in these things.
And as long as it's looked at by an expert in the end, right?
Like, if I am I don't know going for a cancer screening and I'm answering some questions on a computer and then the computer tells me I have cancer, I still want the doctor to look at me, right?
And confirm that that's actually true or not true, so...
Yeah, I think that I'm not really ready to give full control over to an algorithm for these major life decisions or these really big, important things.
But I think working hand in hand or in tandem with an expert. could be great.
And in terms of the medical industry at least, in many countries around the world, many Western countries, these days we actually have a doctor shortage, right.
And a shortage of nurses as well.
So if the algorithm and technology could free up some of the work that they have to do and allow them to spend more time with patients and allow patients to have more time with their doctors and nurses, then yeah, why not?
I think it could be good, but I wouldn't want to give it full control.
Not yet anyways, but we're getting closer and closer.
I think that day will come sometime soon, but not quite yet for me.
How about you, Anna?
What do you think?
Sure.
I'm really along the same lines as you.
I'm like it's a tool that people can use, but I would also, like you said, like a human perspective at some point in the process.
And I also think that consumers are going to demand more transparency in the future.
So I think, as we become I hope anyway as we become more ingrained with these types of algorithms making decisions or helping to make decisions, I think, hopefully companies will make it more transparent.
How do they make decisions using algorithms responsibly?
And it also kind of reminds me of how, when you have adverts with alcohol and it says drink responsibly probably in the future we'll have something like you know decide responsibly, when we're talking about algorithms and things like that.
So I imagine that in the future, hopefully we'll have more education and more awareness about algorithms fingers crossed, i mean, i don't know.
Hopefully we can learn to work with them, like with other technology, and and be clear about how it's helping us, but also some other things to take into account as well.
But yeah, i'm definitely on the same page as you great tool, but would like somebody to just have a little look, just in case.
I think my big takeaway from this conversation is I have to be a little bit more aware with how I interact with algorithms and try to be more observant.
I need to be more observant because I think a lot of times I don't even notice that I'm being fed some content by an algorithm.
But then now that I've stopped to think about it a little bit, I'm like, oh, they're everywhere.
They're kind of everywhere these days.
Like every app I use is So many websites that I use.
There are these algorithms that are trying to manipulate me in some way.
So maybe the first step is that I need to be more aware of them.
And yeah, that's what I'm going to do going forward, I think, is just be aware and try not to be too manipulated.
I mean, if they do present great content, then that's awesome.
But yeah, to realize that there's probably some bias that's probably trying to sell me something.
Yeah. right at the end of the day.
It's probably trying to sell me something.
So I just need to keep my eyes open to be aware of that.
Anyways, Anna, I think this is probably a good place that we can wrap things up here.
So thank you so much for the conversation and your insight.
Amazing as always.
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