Hi, my name is Charli XCX.
And I feel nervous about being Conan O'Brien's friend.
Fall is here, hear the yell.
Back to school, ring the bell.
Brand new shoes, walking blues.
Climb the fence, books and pens.
I can tell that we are gonna be friends.
Hey there, welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, joined as always by Sona Movsesian.
You didn't change your last name when you got married.
I didn't change it.
Yeah.
No, it's a lot of paperwork.
Yeah, and a lot of consonants.
What?
What's Tak's last name?
Is it Takassian?
No, it's not Takassian.
I always think it's his first name plus Azizian.
I know, but that's not how Armenian names work.
Mofsesian has a lot of consonants in it.
Yeah, it's a lot of letters that like really shouldn't be next to each other.
Like the V and the S. Oh, I know.
It's an explosion at a Campbell's Soup factory.
Okay, who has an apostrophe in his last name?
How awful is that?
I'm here in my glass house.
I'm firing stones.
I thought I was safe and apparently I'm not.
And Matt Gourley joining us as well.
There's a fine name, Matt Gourley.
None of your O apostrophe Brian or Muzzles.
It used to be Mac Gourley long, long ago.
What?
Mac Gourley.
You were Mac Gourley?
No, I'm told the last name.
Oh, you got rid of the Mac?
Well, I didn't personally.
I've just heard long ago that it was Mac Gourley.
Oh.
Matt Gourley.
You guys are looking at me like I did this somehow.
Wait, so your name would be Matt Met Gourley?
That's impossible to say.
I wouldn't think I would be named Matt.
Matt Met Gourley.
You know what?
They dropped it.
I think it was Matt Gourley, until you were born.
And you were born Matt, so they knew that they had to lose the Mac.
Yeah.
He was born with a hi, my name is Matt on his chest.
I was.
You know it's interesting that we're talking about birth and related matters because you are going to be taking a leave of absence for a while.
And this is big news.
What's going on?
Well, I'm having a baby.
Not my wife.
I am.
Yeah, you're doing it all yourself.
So when, I won't say ask when specifically, but this is going to happen soonish?
Soon, yeah.
I mean, God only knows it may already have happened the way this seems to be going.
Who knows?
Amanda's just got this feeling that it's coming early.
So yeah, this is a girl.
We're having another little girl.
That's amazing.
Over the moon.
I'm excited about this.
Well, you know, I think I'm the first one to make this analogy, but to me it just feels like, you know, you're going from one-on-one defense to zone.
Is that something I just thought of?
Well, that implies that I understand sports in any way.
Also, it implies that I've never heard a thousand people say that.
Well, you've had two kids.
You obviously have two kids, but they came at once.
So you kind of won the lottery in getting it over with.
I did.
I know a lot of people think twins is hard, but I think having a little kid and a baby and doing that all over again that's harder.
Yeah, because Glenn is already anticipating it.
I mean, two at the same time.
I can't even imagine that.
I know.
And one punched the other out first.
Is that what happened?
There was a brawl inside the womb.
Oh, probably.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then Mikey punched Charlie and he went flying out like the way cowboys would fly out of a bar room.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of brawls still happening.
Did you have little windows, little doors down there that went... Saloon doors.
Saloon doors.
Yeah.
And punch and then... Oh, God.
This is...
This is highly problematic.
Did you hear piano music?
Punch.
And he went flying out.
Mikey punched Charlie.
Charlie goes flying out.
And then, wow, Mikey comes out himself to finish the job.
And they just punched each other down the hallway of the hospital.
That's how my birth happened.
Sorry.
Just can't get that image of the saloon doors.
Don't, because what I think, you're talking about my vagina.
Yeah, sure, yeah.
Do you mean your saloon door?
Yeah.
That's horrible.
Is your vagina spring-loaded?
Oh, my God.
Does it go, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee?
Anyway, I just like the idea of saloon music coming out.
Listen.
So I had a C-section.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
So your stomach is a saloon door?
Yeah.
Oh, God.
No, no, that's different.
That's different.
That's a cellar door, you know?
Come here.
Kid looks around, sees a tornado coming.
Not yet.
Goes back in again.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Get in here, Toto.
Hurry, hurry.
So anyway, vaginas are saloon doors.
C-sections are, of course, Kansas, Kansas cellar doors.
So, well, this is, let's get back to the real story here.
Yeah.
Which is that you and Amanda are having a second child.
This is very exciting.
It's exciting.
I'm old to be a dad, so it just... No, you're not.
Yeah, I mean, I am.
I mean, this is just not how it's typically done, but that's how it's going to happen and that's just Well.
You're not old to be a dad.
Look at, I think...
Look at Michael Douglas, I think, had children when he was- Robert De Niro, Al Pacino.
They're having children at 80.
Yeah.
Doesn't it seem wrong?
You're young compared to them.
Compared to them?
Yeah.
They'll have the same bedtime.
I go to bed before my children already.
That just seemed picturing Al Pacino in the crib with the baby.
I guess it's goodnight.
I want to kill you and bring me some crackers.
You're going to get a swine axe.
What the hell?
It's only six.
I can't believe we're in here.
Give me my milk.
Give me my milk.
I can't do it.
Have you noticed that Mama has a big ass?
Well, anyway, a lot of people are doing it, and they're much younger than you.
Yeah, I know.
No, older than you, you mean.
No.
I'm saying, you're right.
You know what I just revealed?
This is what I'm saying.
I just revealed that I'm too old to be a dad.
I can't think properly.
Oh, no.
Yeah, that thing that Sona said.
That's what I meant.
Yeah.
You're much younger than they are.
This is L.A., baby.
Everyone's having babies.
Yeah, yeah.
You're like a studio head.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're going to be in a house full of girls.
I know.
Including your cat.
I know.
I'm going to be the only man.
You know what?
And even that's pushing it.
If, yeah, if you need to boost the testosterone around there, I'll stop by.
Oh, dear.
We don't need a deficit.
Why did estrogen levels just spike?
I'll come.
I'll get there.
I'll do it.
I'll stop by.
You know what?
Yes.
So it is very exciting.
And how long are you going to be departing for?
I'm going to be gone for about three months.
What?
That's way too long.
I know.
Hey, man, it's modern times.
Paternity leave.
Yeah, baby.
Wow.
You know who would not like this conversation at all?
My wife.
Because I never got any maternity leave.
And she was like, what's going on?
I've got to do another show, baby.
Yeah.
America demands it.
Turns out they didn't.
But don't worry, Amanda will be here in my place.
Very good.
She'd be great, actually.
She would.
I will be popping in and out just because we've recorded ahead some and stuff like that.
You know what I mean?
Like the next episode, I think I'll be there for the interview and things like that.
So it may seem odd.
Quick question.
And I don't want this to sound crass or bullying or in any way intimidating.
Do you get paid while you're gone?
That's a question I have for you.
Yeah, good question.
Adam, how does this stuff work?
Uh-oh.
You don't have to answer that.
I don't want you to be on the spot.
Wow, we're going to have this conversation.
Well, I'm an independent contractor.
I'm not salaried.
Perfect.
I'm sorry.
You also support paternity leave in a man bonding with his new child.
Listen, I want to make sure that everyone's taken care of, and I believe in everyone having good childcare.
But, of course, my hands are tied.
Okay.
I am but a figurehead on the SS Conan O'Brien.
Is this going to be me and you?
Yeah.
Okay.
No, wait.
I think David's going to sit in.
Yeah, we'll get some David in here.
Yeah, we'll get David to sit in.
Of course, Blay will be yelling and pitching a mile a minute.
Oh, yes.
Yep hey, guess what?
With those kind of energy nuggets we can't go wrong.
Yeah, and I reserve the right.
If there's some stellar guests, I'm coming in.
Oh, trust me.
Yeah hey, the whole cast of blah blah, blah.
They're cast men of the Sith, I don't know What.
Men of the Sith?
No, Men of the Sith.
Men of the Sith?
That sounds like a Star Wars erotic calendar.
I would watch that.
That's when I watch Star Wars.
Oh, Men of the Sith.
And also, Men of the Sith.
I said it like there was vomit in my mouth.
Men of the Sith.
Men of the Sith.
The 2026 erotic Men of the Sith calendar.
Oh, man.
Check out February.
His dizzle dazzle goes on forever.
Oh, boy.
Listen, we should get into it.
And listen, sincere congratulations to you and Amanda.
I joke I'm thrilled.
You are thrilled.
I know you are.
I'm anticipating it very much.
So I'm nervous, but I'm excited.
Okay.
Well, good.
Could be a godfather.
Here we go.
Today's guest.
That was awkward.
Today's guest.
Gosh.
It was good enough for sonas, kids, but that was just weird.
Hey, you want to hear real awkwardness?
Just press rewind just a little bit and you'll hear the sound of just nothing.
Nothing, nothing.
Hey, today's guest is a grammy award-winning singer-songwriter who now stars as a fictionalized version of herself in a terrific new mockumentary film which i've seen and i loved it the moment.
Uh, we're very excited she's here today.
Charlie xcx, I might be your polar opposite in every way, although I'm huge in the clubs.
You should know that.
Yeah.
Huge in the clubs.
I'm huge in the London club scene.
I bet.
You just never saw me, but I was huge.
But my daughter and I saw your movie two days ago and loved it, really loved it.
And when the movie was over, my reaction was well, I don't worry about her because you are so smart.
It is such a smart movie.
Thank you.
And I think just the right thing for you to be doing at this moment.
And we'll talk about that in a bit.
We'll really get into it.
But I just wanted to start by saying, A, my team gets to see a lot of cool people.
They're pretty excited today, to the point where, when your car pulled up, people ran up to the window.
Oh, my God.
Everyone who works for me.
And they're all young.
They run up to the window and they were like, it's a white Explorer.
It's a Ford.
It's a Ford.
Get away from the window.
I threw myself on the hood.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We hit him off with the wipers.
Yeah.
You turn on the wipers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good for you.
Yeah.
But you're a very inspiring person because I love the arc of your career.
It hasn't all come quickly for you.
But it's been amazing.
And what I wanted to start with was just kind of your origin story, your superhero origin story, which is you kind of lived dual lives growing up.
Yes.
Because your mom and your dad came from completely different worlds.
Is that right?
True.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My my mom grew up in Uganda.
Her and her family had been there for years.
She's Indian.
And she was removed from the country by Idi Amin in the 70s.
Right.
And then she came to the UK then and her and her family were kind of like, you know, rehoused.
And I remember she told me it was like when they touched down in the UK, weirdly at the airport.
That's kind of like opposite, where my parents still live now.
She'd never experienced snow before.
And this was like the first time she had ever been somewhere so cold.
And they gave all of the kids these huge fur coats.
So she's kind of like stabbing off the plane.
Wait, why are they handing her a pimp coat?
Yeah, I know.
So she's like, it was kind of a cool welcome, I guess.
You mean like when you go to Hawaii?
You get a lei when you come to London.
Yeah, you get a giant fur coat.
Wow.
Welcome.
So they were kind of like swagged out, I guess.
And then my dad, he is adopted and his adoptive family is Scottish.
So, you know, we say Scottish.
But he grew up kind of like near where they raised me.
And yeah, they met in a club on New Year's Eve.
Am I right?
You were born in Cambridge.
Mm-hmm.
Which I was in Cambridge weeks ago.
How is it there?
I haven't been back for a minute.
It's Hogwarts.
I was hanging around the university and it was just, oh my God, Hogwarts exists.
Yeah, totally.
And this is it.
But it was lovely.
It's almost like a theme park, because it's exactly what you think the quintessential old British you know university should look like.
Yes.
But you then have this kind of I wouldn't say schizophrenic, but dual world that you're living in where, if you're hanging out in your dad's world in whether it's Essex or Cambridge, you feel like an outsider, I'm imagining in some ways.
And then if you're visiting with your mom's people, that's a whole different experience.
Yeah, totally.
I mean, it's funny.
It's like I grew up in Essex and I went to school in a town called Bishop's Daltford.
And it was like a lot of white kids coming. you know, predominantly.
And then on the weekends I would go and kind of visit my mom's side of the family who lived like in Crawley.
And that was a very much more like traditionally Indian, set up like big family gatherings, so much food, Bollywood playing in the background, speaking Gujarati, except I never really learned much, apart from Jolly Jolly, which means quick quick, That's like all I know.
That's really all you need to know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then you know, like sometimes like doing prayer and like sometimes going to mosque and things like that.
And then like yeah, not really having any of that kind of experience when I was like going to school or during the weeks really,
And it was kind of hard to really feel that I fit into either world, I suppose, because most of my classmates sort of touch point for an Indian person was a poo on The Simpsons, you know right.
So it was like that was what an indian person was, you know.
Um, so uh, it was very like it was a bit jarring, but also it's it.
It was also, i must say, like it was like okay, you know it was.
It was like my mom had to struggle a lot more with dealing with kind of um, racism and uh things like that, when she was not only growing up but even when she was like living in our, our town, like I remember one day she she came home because she'd kind of had like a milkshake thrown over her and been told to go home and things like that.
And I've, you know, been very lucky that I haven't had to experience that, probably because I'm a lot more passing than she is.
But yeah, it is interesting kind of being from both worlds and not particularly feeling like I belonged in either.
And And it's also funny because I think, doing what I do now, I definitely feel that sometimes when I Google myself which I do I sometimes see that people are sort of like mad that I don't really talk about this side of my life that much.
Yeah um, but the reason that I don't is because no one asks me.
So now that you have kind of sat here and asked me, I'm more than willing and happy to talk about it.
I just feel very awkward about using, like my culture as a USP, like I find it to be kind of a little bit And it's not something that I feel like I really want to do, because there are parts of me that feel distant from both sides of my upbringing.
But when someone asks me about it, I'm so happy to talk about it.
Well, I don't know what you think about this, but I've always had this notion or theory that it's good for an artist to be maybe slightly uncomfortable when they're younger.
That may sound like oh, that can't be true, but it is.
I feel there's something to the idea that not feeling particularly cool when you're a kid, or not being sure what your identity is.
It's like the sand in the oyster that gives you the pearl.
It may be something that you can access.
Is that possible for you?
Oh my gosh, 100%.
And I wouldn't say that that just comes from my heritage.
It's like that, I think for me uh, comes from feeling I felt like I was a loser, you know, like I so, like it was like coming which, and I feel like so many artists have that experience of like they're.
They're just, they've just feel so isolated and alone and uncool and all you know all the the things or whatever I don't know.
And I definitely felt that way and And still do.
And I think it's actually why I used the word nervous at the top of this is because often when I meet people, I'm at a party and it's nighttime and there are so many additional things that can help me feel relaxed.
You know what I mean?
We're talking about hot chocolate.
Yeah.
And I'm not drinking hot chocolate right now.
You know what I mean?
So it's like, oh, then you should try hard drugs.
Right.
Matt, she doesn't know what hard drugs are.
I don't.
Everyone thinks I do, but I just, I don't.
But yeah, so it's like in the cold light of day, sometimes I do get a little bit nervous.
And I kind of revert back to that younger girl who I think sometimes would feel really out of her comfort zone when meeting people and feeling like you know, you have to sort of like establish that you're like a functioning human with a brain and things like that.
And sometimes it's like, ah, so yeah.
I'm telling you, there's I think a lot of people listening can relate to this.
It's a lot of people that would look at you and the stunning, astounding success you've had in the career you've had and say oh, she's just cool and she knows it.
And that's who she is.
And they don't understand the chemistry behind it.
There needs to be moments, big moments, where you're insecure, where you think I don't have any ideas, sometimes imposter syndrome.
Everybody, all the people I admire have that in moments.
Of course.
And they can access it.
I'm someone who can go up in front of a lot of people and take charge and be perfectly in control.
But I can also, in a second, after I'm done with my performance, access the me.
That's 16 years old, bad skin, doesn't know how to talk to girls, way too skinny.
Uh feels like a loser.
That person is always lurking around and I can access that person, whether I want to or not, in a, in a second.
That's just part of the formula.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
And I think it's the sort of the, the kind of duality of both that makes a good artist.
I can't imagine if you were just like so, like chill and confident and happy with yourself all the time.
You'd make terrible art.
I know.
That's why.
Probably.
Yeah, exactly.
No, that's why uh, You know, nothing would enrage me more than if a really good looking guy that I knew in high school, who was an incredible athlete, went on to become the seminal artist.
I would be enraged.
I would say, no, whatever success I have is my consolation prize for years of celibacy.
You don't need to know about that, Charlie.
That's my problem, not your problem.
Okay, I'm gonna tell you a way that your parents are different than mine.
There's many ways, but this is the biggest one that stands out to me.
The way that my parents are different from Charlie XCX's parents.
Your parents took you to perform at illegal raves. never happened with me.
And I heard that fact and I thought this is really interesting because you were young at the time.
They were taking you to illegal raves.
These are parents who really they were out of their comfort zone, especially your mom.
To go to a rave and to take you to this world is a level of support that to me feels phenomenal.
Yeah, of course.
I mean, obviously at the time I was like, can you guys wait outside?
You're like cramping my style.
You know, I was like so ungrateful in a way.
Because who wants to go to the rave with their parents?
Like it's so fucking embarrassing.
Especially when they jump on stage.
Yeah, you know, you know, it's like you're like, oh God, but...
But like also I will say they were, they were very, very respectful of my space and stuff when we went.
And yes, now with hindsight, I'm like, wow, that is so cool of them.
Like they didn't have to do that.
Like they they they kind of like drove me up there and would sort of like hang out in the back.
And this is like late stuff.
This is like I would go on at 4 a.m.
You know what I mean?
Like, and they were.
They were like so, so kind of cool of them to to do that.
I will say like.
When I said to them that I really had this big plan to like move in with one of the rave promoters when I was 16 in a warehouse in Hackney Wick, they drew the line there and they were like that sounds like a bad idea.
And I was like, does it?
I think it sounds amazing.
And they were like, yeah, yeah, no.
So they were supportive.
You know, I like them even more now.
I know, yeah, no, no.
They did draw the line.
Yeah, they're great.
And I think it's cool.
It's like my dad was very much kind of like a self-made guy.
You know, he like worked like so much super hard his whole life, like working class background, like really kind of like did his thing and did everything that he could to kind of have you know more for himself.
And I think he was very much like...
With the whole rave stuff.
He was kind of like oh like, if you're really passionate about this, then you should go and perform, because maybe then you can do that for real.
And I think most parents would kind of be like, you shouldn't do that.
That feels unreliable and stressful.
And why don't you pursue something else?
But i think he was always a bit of a dreamer um, which sounds like a horrid sort of cheesy thing to say, but he really was, and and so i think for him it was like oh, if you're passionate about something that's really cool, like let's try and like figure that out, and i feel very very, very lucky for that.
You know, it's very cool.
That do you ever say to yourself?
I could have been a really good tax attorney all the time, all the time.
Yeah, Because when I was watching your movie I was like I'm sorry.
I said, she's amazing, but tax attorney.
And we don't have a lot of them.
I know, I know, I know.
Yeah, my side hustle.
It would be so great if that was your side hustle.
After a massive show, where are you going?
Well, I've got to go over these...
As a kid, you were listening to Spice Girls, No Doubt, Britney Spears.
And then at some point at a young age, you start thinking about writing yourself.
And that is a leap.
What is the early, early writing for you like?
Look like, is it pen and paper and trying to write things out in a book or is it playing around with a musical instrument?
It was a lot of keyboard playing um, playing the keyboard and kind of and make.
I had like this yamaha keyboard um, and i was like making a lot of beats on there and then like record, like doing like recording kind of separately all the different layers, um.
So yeah, it was kind of like writing lyrics and then um trying to figure out chords and very much like piano orientated.
And I think it all began because I had this boyfriend who turned out to be gay and honestly, all the signs were so there.
He was like the coolest um, And not many 15-year-old boys are that cool.
And he was so cool.
He had great style, great taste.
He made me a mixtape of stuff that I had never heard before.
And I think it was like that was kind of like the moment where I was like oh, like he kind of like opened my eyes to all of these different artists that I hadn't really been listening to that much before.
Like some kind of indie bands and then like stuff like Gang of Four and like I don't know, like a lot of stuff that I had not really, that hadn't been on my radar.
And at that point, I think I kind of had the hunger to try and write things myself a bit more.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, step number one is always, you have to put stuff into the machine.
You have to open up your head and a volume of not just a type of music, but every type of music.
And they call it having big ears.
But just the more stuff you're listening to at an early age, I swear to God they're going to figure out that it happens almost on a neurological level.
You can redirect, your synapses can grow.
You can teach yourself that it's a big musical world out there and it becomes part of you.
But a lot of it's just osmosis.
It's just listening, listening, listening.
Something that really interests me about your career, which is there's so many ways that I can't relate to what you do.
I admire it, but I can't relate to it.
And one thing I can relate to is that I started as a writer and I would write for other people.
I would write things for other voices, and I listened and watched a lot of comedy, but then I would write for someone, a known performer.
And I did that for years before I sort of solidified my thing.
And I think, I know early on you're writing for a lot of other people and that was your way in.
And in some ways it's helpful because you can observe.
You had taught.
You're clearly, you know, crazy intelligent.
You could observe other people how they're living, what it's like to be a huge star, and you can stand off of it for a little bit and participate, but not get the full blast right away.
Does that sound right?
Kind of.
It's interesting.
It's like there is this misconception that I was writing for people first.
I actually made a record first and it was really, really good.
And it was like critically acclaimed, but it sold about honestly like 11 copies.
It was like really like no one bought it, basically.
No one bought it.
No one really heard of it apart from like the five people who reviewed it.
Love them, you know.
But like, there was like a small fan base of people who were into it.
It was called True Romance.
And I was signed at that time to Atlantic Records.
And I'm pretty sure they would have dropped me like there and then after that album.
And at this point in time, this is God, what, like 2012?
I could be so wrong 2013, but this was like a point in time where, like record labels had so much more power over an artist and their career and whether they could even have a career.
I mean, I think it's so different now, but back then it was like, especially being a woman making pop music, it was like if you didn't have a label like, forget about it.
You know what I mean.
But right now, Right at the kind of end of that album campaign which it wasn't even a campaign, it just came out, whatever.
I wrote this song called I Love It, which was sung by this Swedish band called Iconopop.
And that became a big song.
And I think that started my career of writing for others.
And if I hadn't had that then yeah, it probably would have been, you know, accountant or whatever.
For me
Tax.
Listen, and let me point out, there's still time.
I know.
And I know a guy who can help you.
Great, great, great.
And I know your team doesn't like what I'm taking you down.
No, they love it.
I mean, it's responsible.
If you would take three years off, just hear me out.
First law school, we'll do it later.
Yeah, good, good.
Well, that song too, I know you're singing on that song as well.
I am, yes.
Yeah, and so I mean that experience of you getting your music across and working with another artist or through another artist.
You have that period of time, you have this long arc of making music Very successful music.
I mean my daughter, who I told you is a massive fan, has been listening to for years, long before Brat, and was a fan of yours.
So when the moment comes that Brat comes out Brat Summer, the whole cultural phenomenon of that you're probably maybe a little better prepared if you can be prepared for something like that.
For sure.
I mean, 100%.
It's funny like I guess as an artist I had already sort of like dabbled in like commercial success through yeah, the songs I'd written for other people and been a feature on.
And you know that had like literally taken me around the world and allowed me to perform on different stages, stages and things like that.
So I kind of had this like secondhand experience, as you were saying, of like pop star success.
But it wasn't.
I was sort of like the one like photobombing the photo rather than like in the main center frame.
But it was cool.
You know, I was cool with that.
But yeah.
And then I sort of I had my own song.
This song called Boom Clap, which was in this film called Fault in Our Stars.
Mm-hmm.
And that was my sort of big, like, oh, now she's going to do it.
And it didn't really happen.
I don't think I was ready then.
I didn't really have my brain fully dialed as an artist brain in a way.
I wasn't connecting all the pieces of the puzzle together in the way that I do now when I think about my work.
And then after that I kind of like went into this other world of okay, now I'm going to kind of really like make underground stuff and work with like my freaky friends and things like that.
And so when Brat happened and people were into that record, I was actually kind of at this point where I was kind of like I'm just going to make this record for me.
And I don't really care if anybody else likes it.
This is for me.
This is for my fans.
I felt like I was at a point in my career where I could really sustain being able to do what I wanted, even if the album wasn't commercially successful.
I was totally at peace with it.
And I'd been so swinging on the pendulum back and forth between what I wanted as a person, as an artist, prior to that.
But with this record, I was down the line.
I am ready for it to flop and i am gonna stand by it.
I love it.
Like this is for me and my fans, who like give a fuck about what i'm doing yeah um, and then obviously, like it didn't really happen like that, like a lot more people than my hardcore fan base were into the record And I think, because I had had this prior journey before of, like you know, being in the background of the photos and like kind of like having this sort of like almost type moments.
I felt yeah, like I'd kind of like seen so much and I'd also like experienced so much of what the industry is and how people come and go and how people treat you when you're on top versus when you're not.
And I think not to be, not to sound jaded it's not that I was jaded.
I think I'm just quite realistic about fame and the industry and how serious or unseriously you need to take it and Yeah, I don't know.
I feel really thankful that I got to have the experience that I had prior to Rat, because I think I would have been a nightmare if I hadn't.
Honestly, I think it would have been quite a dangerous concoction of things all coming together.
Yeah.
It makes you feel sorry or have empathy for people.
There are people that have that when they're 19, 20, 21.
And oftentimes that can lead to drug addiction, mental illness, because I don't think people are meant to experience that.
100%.
And it's not something biologically we're meant to be able to experience.
I'm just curious because there's a little bit of false modesty about Brat.
It wasn't just successful.
Very few times can you say that an album is a cultural phenomenon.
This really was, it was artistically a smash, but it took on a whole life.
The color and font of the album became a thing.
That's when you know you've done something interesting.
Yeah.
You know when, you know you're whatever.
You're passing by a coffee shop and the color and the font is telling you buy a mochaccino, and you're like okay, this doesn't even have anything to do with brat.
Yeah.
They're trying to use brat to sell a mochaccino.
Yeah.
This is weird.
Was there a moment when you've had success before?
You'd been playing before people for a long time?
Was there a moment that crystallized for you, where you thought, oh my God, this is weird.
This is big.
Or was it all kind of fluid in a way?
You're in a flow state.
Kind of flow state.
And also, I'm very bad at doing the thing where you look back and acknowledge success.
I'm kind of like, next thing, let's go.
I don't know.
I can sit here and talk to you guys and say, actually, yeah, it was really cool.
But in the moment, I wasn't really...
And I think I find the whole sort of like social experiment of the whole thing really fascinating.
And I think the way that people interact with pop culture has always been like a huge inspiration to my work.
And so for me, this was sort of like oh my God, this was like the cherry on the cake of everything I had ever hoped for, because it was so interesting to see how people fans haters brands, presidential campaigns were interacting with.
You know what I was doing.
And I found it very, very, yeah, fascinating the way that, yeah, like trend cycles change.
And yeah, it's like that's always been such interesting fuel for me and for my work.
Like I'm fascinated with how people engage with stuff like that.
This has all served you really well, because The Moment is your movie and it is a mockumentary film which I don't think quite describes it, because it's a yes, it's a pretend documentary.
It can be very funny at times.
But the thing, and Sona, you saw it as well.
The thing that struck me as I watched it and I thought, this is true.
This is very, very true documentary.
I'm speaking as someone who has nothing, no connection to that world and that experience, but you can tell when something is authentic.
And this is a very smart, honest, funny, wry look at what you went through.
And no, it is not factual, but it's true.
And I was really blown away by, I mean, just...
When you watch the movie, you get a really good sense of what it's like to be you.
And I know it's a version of you, but it felt to me like a very honest, cool, innovative document.
And I loved it.
I really did.
And I don't know what your experience was, Sona.
You know what?
It reminded me of something you said, which is a lot of times people try to justify their paychecks.
And it seemed like there was a lot of characters in here who were trying to justify their paychecks in a way.
And it shows you...
It shows you what it really is for people who are such a big part of the zeitgeist to have so many voices that are just coming at them.
And I don't I mean, it was so it was really funny.
Alexander Skarsgård.
Oh, my God.
It's amazing in it.
It was so incredible in this movie.
But everybody is so funny.
It's also very real.
And it's it's such a great glimpse into what it's like to go through what you went through.
We're big Rachel Sennett fans and she was sitting in that chair weeks ago and we were talking about her new show and I just adore her.
I love that she's playing this version of herself, which isn't all that flattering, and it's really funny.
The Kylie Jenner.
Oh my God.
Kylie, like, yes, she kills.
But also I love that she comes in and encounters you at a weak moment and gives you this advice which is like comically, she's telling you you got to go for it.
You got to do this.
But in a way you're thinking, no, don't listen to her.
Yeah.
And she looks ethereal.
Her lighting is insane.
Yeah.
And I look insane.
Yeah.
She's like, I love the song about the fruit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, there are so many moments that are... And, yeah...
Alexander Skarsgård's coming in and he's this very awkward, weird energy.
But to your point, Sona, it's a really good point.
The thing I like the most about the movie is something that happens all the time in any kind of entertainment endeavor, which is you, are you.
You are a real person living in the world.
You have these experiences.
You are following your own North Star creatively, making your stuff.
Then you hit this mother load of insane success.
And you're right credit card companies, You know Frappuccino companies, you know sneaker companies banks, presidential candidates.
Everybody moves in and then you have a team.
And as we talked about earlier, a lot of your work is flow state work.
But now people are saying, now, hold on a second.
It's not good for Arby's restaurant if you, you know, say fuck in the song.
Could you instead say, I enjoy Arby's?
And you're saying, what?
Yeah.
Why would Charlie XCX be saying I like Arby's?
It would really help.
And that is depicted so well in this movie.
And it is funny, but it's also, it's not just a funny movie.
It also felt like very much a snapshot of where we are right now.
Mm-hmm.
And I think people are always trying to depict a lot of movies about famous people and people going through fame.
I thought this was the truest depiction I've seen in memory of what it's really like.
Right.
Because, yeah, it's like, thank you for saying all of that, by the way.
It's so kind of you.
And you really got the film, which is great.
Great news.
Great news.
You thought I was an idiot.
Yeah.
And the car ride on the way over in your white Ford.
Who is this idiot?
That's why I wrote, I said nervous.
Yeah, nervous.
And then they showed you a picture of my hair and you went, what is that?
Yeah.
No, I mean, you know, you never know.
You're so locked into the edit and you're like, are we insane?
It feels clear to us.
And then you're like, you know, whatever.
Anyways.
No, you're smart.
You're really so smart.
You know what I always say?
Charlie, when someone likes my work, I say, you're smart.
And when someone has any problem with it, I say, you're an idiot.
That's how I'm going to do press for this film.
Who here's an idiot?
You can show yourself out.
It's going to be really good.
You know, what's really nice too, is you have proven yourself a million times over with your abilities in music and as a performer.
You're very funny.
Oh, thanks, Josh.
No, no, but you really are.
You're very funny.
And the way you play things, because a lot of people think being funny is about saying a line in a funny way.
And yeah, okay, that's true.
But there's so much of it, which is almost harder to do, which is reactions.
And so much of the movie is watching your face, watching what's happening to you, and you are the avatar for the audience.
So we're watching it thinking, Jesus, Skarsgard's a weird guy.
Right, right, right.
And other people are listening to him saying, well, he's a big deal and he's got a neck scarf.
But you're taking it in and your face is, you play the comedic moments really well.
Thank you.
It was very funny.
Thank you.
And then someone turned me on to your movie reviews that you do.
Uh-oh.
And I was reading your movie reviews, which you do on, what is it?
Letterboxd.
Yeah, Letterboxd.
Okay, I'm cool.
Letterboxd.
What is it now?
He said, putting on his glasses.
It's Letterboxd.
Young lady.
Go to your room.
You're like a complete unknown.
You said, there are a lot of songs in this.
Moneyball.
This isn't for British people.
I love this one because, as you know, I did a thing once parodying.
We did a film parodying Mad Max Fury Road and I was his name's the Doof Warrior.
He's the guy that hangs off the front of the truck in Mad Max Fury Road.
You don't need to tell me, friend.
Yeah, playing the guitar that shoots flame.
Yeah.
Your review for that fantastic movie, is the guitarist dead?
Hope so.
And I was just like, oh, okay.
You're also a comedy writer, which isn't fair because I've worked at that my whole life.
And then you step out of a rave and do it and do it really well.
But I would think your sense of humor would... It's so important to everything.
It's so important to music and to just staying sane.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean...
It's yeah, I think it's like I have to take everything with a pinch of salt.
But then at the same time I'm also like an emotional wreck and it's kind of like balancing the two things.
And I think it's like I try and approach everything I do with with kind of acknowledgement of both sides of my personality, whether that be you know making music or doing press, or you know even the film itself.
And I think that's an important thing, part about the film you know it's like and to go back to your point about it being what you feel is an accurate depiction of um fame or success or or whatever the phrasing was that you use, it's like It's so ridiculous really, isn't it?
Like the world that we live in or encounter.
It's like amazing and exciting, but it's also like pointless and ridiculous, and then also so rewarding sometimes.
Yeah.
Sometimes I am the complete total villain, you know?
And I think... And I don't just mean, like, in the film.
I mean, like, actually, like, in my life, in my world.
Like, I can be a fucking nightmare sometimes.
You know what I mean?
What's here about that?
But, you know, it's like... And I think, for me, it was really important that, like...
I wasn't landing in this morally perfect place at the end of the film, because that has not been my experience with working in the music industry.
It hasn't been my experience physically with fame.
It's like it's complex, like you don't always like land in this place where you're like, and now I've like tied up all the loose ends, I was a great person, everybody loves me and that's the end of the book, like no, it's like you hurt people, you burn people.
You, you like, are really rude to your sweet manager on text one day and they're having probably the worst day ever, but they're professional, so they don't like say anything back, you know, and and you cancel a show you like, whatever it is, i don't, i don't know, but it's like it's all so heightened and crazy and i hope that we we showed that in the film and i i hope that, whilst i acknowledge i can be like that sometimes, i also hope that i try and be like a nice person.
Yeah, you know, i i hope that i wouldn't be the real person to ask about that.
Well, you know no, we've talked to people and you're a monster.
That's just the way it is.
And i'm talking about the people right outside so you can let them go um, but uh yeah, they have to go.
Um, i won't tolerate that on your behalf.
No, what I love is that you, in your work, you've made it kind of a mission to tell girls and you have a massive influence with young women to say I'm scruffy, I say dumb shit.
Sometimes I fall down.
Because what's modeled for them often is perfection, is fairytale, is perfect lighting is things that they can't possibly compete with.
No one can compete with.
And you have gone out of your way to I think be true to the you that's in a rave at four o'clock in the morning.
And it's, do you know what I mean?
It's sweaty and it's chaotic and you improvise some stuff and this went well, but I just knocked that light over and smashed it and someone's going to have to pay for that, but it's not me.
I mean, I think you've been very good about, which I admire, and you're not doing it to be a good person.
You're doing it because that's the way you see the world.
Absolutely.
You're not saying, oh, I'm going to do this good person thing.
You're doing it because that's how you see things and that's how you see yourself, and you want these young women to see you that way, so they can see themselves that way.
Yeah, totally.
I mean, and look it's like.
I would hope that, as I said, I am a good person to those who meet me in, you know, in real life.
But I didn't decide.
I wanted to make art to be a role model or No.
That's not where it comes from.
It can never come from that.
I should not be put in that category at all.
Like, I don't want that responsibility.
I don't think it is an artist's responsibility to be a role model.
Like I think opinions on that have kind of changed as like the relationship between fan and artist gets sort of closer and closer and closer.
But I don't really subscribe to that belief personally.
And yeah, I think it's like if I can show people that fucking up sometimes is actually fine, because we're all human and we all probably do it, even if we claim to not on the internet, where we're being like our best, most curated versions of ourselves.
Like, I think that's, that's good because I would have loved to have seen that when I was younger.
Um, you know, but um, I also I'm probably going to like mess up at that some point, at some point too.
You know, it's like that's just how it goes.
You know I don't want to give anything away, but the end of your movie I have to be careful here because I don't want to give it away, but it's the end of your movie is you having to make a choice, a big choice about how you're going to present yourself on stage?
And I'm not going to say what happens, but people are pressuring you to put on these the kind of outfits we're used to seeing when someone does a world tour or a massive event you know arena show, something and you're putting on these dresses and things that really aren't you, but people are saying no, you got to wear this because this is the next step.
And I was thinking was there any point where you were looking at any of those dresses, thinking this is actually?
I really like this.
I think maybe you were.
Well, okay.
Okay.
There's a green one you wear that I must have.
Oh gosh, yeah.
Because I've got a Well, come on, Sona.
You've seen it.
I haven't.
I can't find it.
I showed you pictures.
I can't find it.
I have no ass, famously.
My ass was lost in a terrible accident years ago.
You know, I got to say, no, there wasn't.
But there was actually like the opposite experience where I'm not sure if this is something I can say or not.
We can always take it out if you can't say it.
We'll find out.
But there is this moment actually where I'm sort of on the way to making the decision at the end of the film, where I'm kind of trying to decide like which what show am I doing?
And I'm in a rehearsal for this movie. more traditional kind of show.
And on the day that we shot it, I'm wearing this outfit.
That is not something like I've ever worn before.
It is green.
Oh, I know the outfit very well.
You know, like green hair, green eyeshadow.
And I'm up on wires.
And when we were shooting it, you know I was up on wires up and down for like most part of two days.
But before I went up, my creative director in real life came over to me and she was like are you okay?
And I was like, yeah, I think so.
And she was like, you know, you look really, really lame right now.
And I was like, really?
I was like, really?
And she was like, yeah.
And then I cried.
And then she cried.
And she was like, you've never looked so uncool.
And I was like, oh my God.
And then the director came over and was like, you ready to shoot?
I was like, I fucking hate you.
That's great.
And he was like, but this is the point, you know, it's really funny.
And I honestly don't think we're giving anything away, because if I heard this I'd be like I have to see this movie.
And it doesn't give anything away because we won't tell you what happens.
But it's a moment in the movie where you're getting some pressure to do the more traditional thing.
And we always see pop artists up on, you know, wires.
It's just there.
Spend more time up in the air than on the ground.
But what really made me?
There's a visual that people have to see, which is they hoist you up and you're in the mid air and you've got your outfit on and your boots and you're holding the microphone and you're just singing, but not doing any.
So they just took, you're doing the exact same thing you would be doing.
You know, you're not moving.
It's not Cirque du Soleil.
It's if they took a tax lawyer and hoisted them in the air and told them, now do your work.
And you were just there saying, well, if I were, and that really made me laugh.
There's so much stuff like that in the film.
You know what I will say from shooting that scene?
I got to say I have so much respect for artists who do go up on wires because it is like really hard.
It's really hard to look good and poised and effortless, like it's so hard like i really was, like at points it's all got cut from the film.
I was like really trying to look good and i kind of look like sugar plum fairy.
It's like really really hard to look like serene and and gorgeous.
It's so impossible.
So respect to pink and whoever else who's doing all the flips and stuff.
It's very hardcore no No, no.
It's amazing that people can do it and sing and move.
Yeah, impossible.
We should do the podcast sometime when it's the three of us up on wire.
And then you can be our guest and we'll hoist you up.
Yeah.
And then we'll tell you you look lame.
You can wear that green dress.
You'll tell us to fuck off.
Yeah, yeah.
It'll be a nice show.
Charlie, I am delighted, absolutely delighted to meet you.
And just it's so funny because the thing that keeps inspiring me is people that are much younger than me, who are oftentimes in an art form that has that.
Maybe I don't understand that they're doing something completely different, but I see the same things over and over again, which is really hardworking, true to themselves disciplined, honest and brave.
And I think and I look at all those qualities and time and time again in history those people do really great things and I get inspired.
And, you know, so I'm this geezer who's like, that's cool.
I'm really glad you're out there.
I'm really glad that you're doing your work and doing it so beautifully.
Love the film.
And please come back sometime because it's been an absolute joy talking to you.
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I had a great time.
Oh, good.
Thank you.
All right.
And we'll talk about this tax thing.
Yes, perfect.
I think you're wasting your time in music.
No, come on.
She's good with numbers.
I know she is.
Okay, it's time for Review the Reviewers.
This is where I go to Apple Podcasts.
I pull out one of the just flowing sea of five-star reviews.
Beautiful, beautiful.
And we reviewed it.
And then we reviewed the review.
And I'd like to review you right now.
You said revit.
The audience won't know what I'm talking about.
I will have cut that out.
I don't think so.
I think you're going to keep it in.
I'll cut that out, but I'm going to keep this part in.
Better comedy.
I would keep it in.
It's good.
It's good.
I'm going to cut all this out.
Okay.
All right.
This is from Calabria86.
Okay.
Sibling rivalry, five stars.
Love, love, love the podcast.
Conan, you, Sona, and Matt have an infectious sibling rivalry.
What do you think day-to-day life would have been like if you three were actually siblings and grew up together in the same house?
Oh, wow.
Well, I don't think we even have to suppose what this would be because we know.
We know.
Yeah.
I mean.
Pick any period of history, pick any situation anywhere in the world.
The three of us living in a house day to day as siblings would be exactly what you think it is.
Even as kids, would it be any worse or better?
I think it would be.
Let's adjust the ages, so you're like two years older than me and I'm two years older than Sona.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, so there's just a two year gap between each of us.
Am I the oldest?
Yeah.
Yeah, still the oldest.
Okay, so...
Well, I mean, my brother Justin could speak to this very well.
I would be 24 seven bits.
I would recruit him in bits.
So I'd be recruiting both of you into my bits. and making you participate against your will.
This would be a tough life to be born into.
It would be tough.
Are we ourselves in this scenario?
Yes, we're all us.
Then I would pummel the two of you on a daily basis.
What did I do to you?
Just because it's like you're an easy target.
Yes.
And you're just going to be like, I'm painting my figurines or whatever you're doing.
Yeah, he has his figurines.
Yeah, he has, you know, famous architects of the early 20th centuries, you know, and he's doing his little paintings of the figurines.
Early architects.
Yeah, he would.
So yeah, I just, I'm just, you know, I'm going to like kick him and I'm going to beat you up, because I think that happened to me a lot.
And it made me a much tougher person.
Like my brother was bigger.
Yeah.
And he, you know, he beat me up a lot.
And so I would beat him up.
I tried.
I fought back.
I think if I had weaker people around me, I would beat them up.
So I think I would just.
Danny was Danny was just stronger than you.
And I think he.
He was a real nerd.
He carried a briefcase around as a kid.
I did not.
And I know that's you.
I mean, we just got to get the word out on that.
I literally know that's you.
No, no, no.
I know this for a fact that she showed up.
I did not carry a briefcase.
You told me you had a briefcase when you were in college.
You did have a briefcase.
Or high school or something.
You said you did when you were a kid.
You've told it on this podcast.
I know, but I was probably bullshitting.
I did not have a briefcase.
My brother really wanted to work in finance for a really long time.
And he had a briefcase.
Her brother had, Danny had a briefcase.
You have said, right?
He said on this podcast that he had a briefcase.
I don't know.
I can't remember.
I don't know that I did have a briefcase.
I forget every podcast we record.
We have to, because I don't think that's true.
And I would be the first to admit I had a briefcase.
No.
Is it that you really wanted a briefcase?
You've talked about a briefcase.
No, no.
What I said is that I liked...
I really loved office supplies.
I love the ideas of having like a stamp.
I love the ideas of having one of those pressy things that makes like a little medallion on the paper.
An embosser.
An embosser.
That's cool.
I liked no.
No, I'm saying I know this is terrible, but I really wanted an intercom where I could go like hello Louise, you know, put those, get those memos out.
I love that.
My dream when I was a little kid was to be a mid-level Soviet bureaucrat.
That's right.
So your brother had a briefcase.
Yeah.
You showed me a picture once when you're all little kids and he's standing there.
I think he's wearing one of your dad's suits.
It's too big.
And he's holding a briefcase.
Yeah, he does.
He used to hold a briefcase.
But then he got older and then he became a jock and he was a football player and he was like huge.
He'd have to work out all the time.
And so, you know, he would like we would fight over the remote or whatever and things like that.
So I got really tough because of him.
Yeah.
And I feel like with you two as my siblings, you know, I just beat you up all the time.
But let's keep in mind, in this scenario, I'm two years older than you.
I'm your older brother.
You're four years older than me, and I would still beat you up.
You'd still beat me up?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know what?
That scans.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, I think you would beat me up.
So I'm taking abuse from both sides.
You are.
Oh, first of all, I think you die after a year.
I'm being honest.
I think I open my veins in a warm bathtub.
I don't want to be living this life at all.
No, no.
You open your veins in a bathtub, but we find you, bind you, and then beat you.
Because I'm incapacitated, and you just...
That's too good a way for you to go.
But no, people are looking for you and then you're found in a bog.
What's left of you.
They find your glasses floating on top of the water.
I knew you'd be dead.
Yeah.
We'd kill you so fast.
No, no, you'd be gone.
And then Sona and I, I think you would quickly realize this guy's going on to things.
He's going to monetize these bits.
And so you wouldn't want me dead, because you'd know you can sponge off me the rest of your life, as you do now.
I wouldn't want either of you dead.
You're my siblings, right?
Yeah, you sure love us.
Yeah, sure.
But I'll fight you.
That's how people show affection.
You know what?
Even if we don't kill Gorley, he dies of, like, the milk sickness.
I know.
He's very weak.
I'm sorry.
You are.
Yeah, you'd get the rheumatism, you know?
Oh, and you'd have braces.
You'd have braces on your chest and your legs.
I did have braces on my legs.
I know.
I shouldn't laugh, but...
You know those braces you had?
Make them out of a cruder material and that's what you would have in this scenario.
Wicker.
Yeah.
Okay.
And then I do say after you're gone, we do feel badly and we go visit your grave for a little while.
Just a little bit.
But then we move on because I'm a big deal.
I've faked my death just to get away from you guys.
And I'm living happily, happily anywhere.
Anywhere but here.
It's right now in this time that I'm not even joking.
We're out of this role-playing scenario.
It's like the...
It's like Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn.
You're up in a tree.
You fake your death.
You're up in a tree listening to your own eulogy, but then you fall out of the tree and you're killed.
I fall right into the grave.
We roll you right into the grave we've already dug.
We just roll you in.
Yeah.
We're like, yeah, that works.
I think what happens is I'm a ghost.
I'm a CIA thing.
I had to fake my death.
I got multiple passports.
I'm doing my own thing.
I think we all know that's what's happening.
I think you die.
You become a ghost, but then you're sickly as a ghost.
It's never happened before.
Other ghosts are like, that's not supposed to happen.
And then you die as a ghost and become a more translucent ghost.
And then you're still sick.
And you can't because the pathogen keeps getting spread.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
And then you're just a ghost that's wheezing and coughing and blowing your nose, as you are now all the time.
Oh, my God.
Other ghosts are bullying you.
I think it would be fun.
Do you think our parents would like constantly like at dinners and stuff?
They just would our parents leave us?
For good, yes.
Right, that's what I mean.
I think the parents would move out.
But then again, they'd have that hint that Conan guy seems like he's monetizing this bit thing.
We better just keep in touch just to get some of that sweet scratch.
But when you were a kid, no one was like, he's going to monetize this.
They were like.
Luke knew.
Luke knew.
Did he?
Oh, that's cool.
No, he didn't.
He had an abacus and he was figuring out.
What you do now while you can monetize it now, back when you were a kid, it's like concerning.
Yeah.
Right?
They're going to monetize this and they're thinking we need to institutionalize.
Yes.
That's what I mean.
But some of our best artists have been institutionalized, you know?
Okay.
I just made that up.
I don't think that's true.
I know.
I don't know what that is either.
Okay.
Well, I think we answered that question.
Yeah.
And that was Review the Reviewers.
Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, with Conan O'Brien, Sonam Ovsessian, and Matt Gourley.
Produced by me, Matt Gourley.
Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Liao.
Theme song by The White Stripes.
Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.
Take it away, Jimmy.
Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair.
And our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.
Engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burns.
Additional production support by Mars Melnick.
Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brit Kahn.
You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode.
Got a question for Conan?
Call the Team Coco hotline at And if you haven't already, please subscribe to.
Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.
