Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
Have you ever wondered why is it that you can know what you want, but for some reason you can't seem to make it happen?
Like maybe this is the year you want to lose weight or take control of your money or start a new chapter.
Stop smoking, start meditating, get a job, start journaling.
You know what you want.
But for some reason, you just can't get out of your own way.
I've been there.
You've been there.
It's so frustrating.
And the people in your life right now that are driving you crazy, they're in their own way too.
That's why our conversation and the tools you're going to learn today are going to be so life-changing.
I mean you're going to feel a weight lifted off your shoulders because in our studios today here in Boston We have a world renowned behavioral scientist and she is also an endowed professor at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania.
She is here to reveal the seven hidden barriers that have been stopping you from getting what you want out of life.
And this is not just her opinion that there are these barriers.
They were uncovered in her lab.
The Behavior Change for Good Initiative at Wharton School of Business.
They come from consolidating the findings from over 192 researchers.
I cannot wait for you to discover what your specific barrier is.
And, even more importantly, you're going to learn the exact, evidence-backed strategy to use for each one of these seven barriers.
Because depending on which one is keeping you stuck, you're going to need a different tool.
I don't know about you, but I am personally ready for this.
And I'm sure you are too.
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and I want to let you in on a little secret to my success.
Every single year for the last 20 years, I go through the same year-end planning process.
It's a simple way that I create the next best year of my life.
There are six questions I ask myself.
They're all backed by research, all proven, to help you get clear about what you want and step into next year with a sense of purpose and the plan to help you create it.
I now want to share them with you.
I have a free workbook that you can download that will guide you through my year-end planning process.
You will be so clear, you will be confident and you will know exactly how to create 2026 as the best year ever.
And, as your friend, I'm going to tell you you deserve to have the best year of your life, especially after everything you've been through.
Sign up at MelRobbins.com slash best year.
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
I am so excited that you're here.
It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you.
And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this with you, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
I cannot wait for you to meet today's guest, Professor Katie Milkman.
She is here in our Boston studios to teach you seven hidden strategies to change your life this year.
Professor Milkman is an award-winning behavioral scientist and an endowed professor at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania, which is ranked the number one business school in the United States.
She received her PhD from Harvard University in computer science and business at Wharton.
She teaches courses about the science of change and decision-making.
Professor Milkman is the co-founder and co-director of the Behavior Change for Good Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania, where she runs massive clinical research studies and field experiments that involve tens of thousands of people testing exactly what helps you and me follow through on the changes we say we want.
She's also the author of the bestselling book How to Change the Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, and an associate editor at the highly acclaimed research journal Management Science.
She's also advised major institutions, including the American Red Cross and the U.S.
Department of Defense, on how to help people make better decisions.
And today...
She's here to help you remove the seven hidden barriers that are currently keeping you from getting what you want.
So please help me welcome Dr. Katie Milkman to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate you making the time.
I've been a fan of your work for over a decade and I love that we're going to get this chance to dig into research that helps you change your life.
It's informed, some of the biggest books on habits on the planet, and now we have the OG with us in person.
I want to start, Professor Milkman, by talking about how could my life change be different?
If I take everything you're about to teach us, the research you're about to explain, and I apply it to my life, what's going to change?
Every single person has a goal.
You have a goal that you want to achieve right now, even if you haven't articulated it.
There's some aspect of your life that you want to improve.
You want to get better.
And there's also probably people you care about who you want to help improve.
And there's a lot of science that you can use to get there faster and with higher probability.
But most of us, when we have that goal, when we have someone we care about, we want to help achieve a goal.
We're just shooting from our hip.
We are not basing our strategies on evidence.
And what I hope to share today is a set of tools you can use immediately to make it easier to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve and to help other people do the same.
Whether that's getting in shape, whether that's getting your finances in order, whether it's getting a promotion at work, whatever that goal is you're trying to tackle, we actually have evidence-based tools to help.
So hopefully by the end of this episode you'll have learned and grown a lot in ways that will allow you to be a stronger version as you approach a new goal.
You know what I'm excited about?
I feel very optimistic all of a sudden because you're here.
No, I mean that.
I mean that sincerely because I think a lot of us have that experience of really wanting to change.
And I appreciate you validating that that inside each and every one of us is a desire to feel better and do better.
And we not only want it for ourselves, we want it for the people that we care about.
And so, before I ask you my next question, I just want to speak to you as you're listening or as you're watching us on YouTube, because everything that you're about to learn, the research that Professor Milkman is going to unpack, the evidence-based strategies, they're universal to all of us.
But I want to make this personal as you listen or watch.
And so I do want you to think, what is the goal?
What is the change?
Is it saving money?
Is it eating healthier?
Is it exercising more?
Is it losing weight?
Is it spending more time with family and friends?
Is it quitting smoking or vaping or drinking, spending less money, getting a better job?
Think about what you want to change for the better.
Because if you have that in mind, you can apply all this evidence and all this research to every single goal you might have in life.
So I just invite you to do that because it's going to make this way more impactful for you.
You know, Professor Milkman, you have spent your entire career not only studying researching, writing and teaching about why change is so hard.
What is the biggest lie that we've been told about change?
I think the biggest lie is that you should just work harder or use your willpower, and that there's something wrong with you if you can't push through the pain and achieve this challenging goal.
And the truth is, that's not the key to change.
It's not that you lack something inside you and that's the reason that you can't do it.
It's actually normally that you haven't set up the right strategies.
You don't have the right support systems.
There's not something broken in you.
And if you blame the way you're designed and you say you know I don't have the willpower to make this change.
I just, you know, there's something wrong with me and I can't do it.
You're setting yourself up to fail.
It doesn't just take willpower or grit or fortitude.
It takes strategy and it takes understanding.
How do you set yourself up for success, despite the fact that that doing hard things is hard?
You have to change it so that doing hard things becomes easy, because no one's good at doing hard things.
So we have to make it enjoyable.
We have to make it memorable.
We have to make it social.
We have to bring to bear all the best evidence to strategically overcome these challenges.
And we can use the tools that are going to lead us to success instead of to failure.
Well, what I love about where you're starting is, I think, most of us, when we have a big goal And we really want to change, but we can't seem to figure out how to make the change stick or how to change at all.
What I'm starting to get, which I think is a brand new idea for me, is that, based on the evidence and based on the research that you're about to share with us, and based on the strategies you're going to teach us, that learning how to change is a skill.
Absolutely.
Learning how to change is a skill, just like using an Excel spreadsheet is a skill.
And you can master that skill and you can learn what it takes.
And importantly, once you learn it, it has dual functions.
Not only does it actually help you achieve more, you can use those insights to help all the people you care about.
Oh, I love that.
It's sort of a magic skill in my opinion, and that's why I like to study it and share the science, because it has so many benefits.
So the same things that you're going to teach us that we need to do so we can save money and stop drinking and spend more time with friends and lose weight.
Do all the things that we want to do in life.
We can give these same tools to everybody in our lives.
Whoever you coach, who you parent. who you teach, who you mentor, everyone needs the same things.
I'm constantly getting questions like, oh, but does this strategy work for women in their 80s?
And, you know, does this work in India?
Like, yes, it really does.
These the things we're going to talk about, the barriers, they're human.
We're all human.
We're human no matter our age, our gender, our race.
We all have the same barriers and we can all therefore benefit from the same tools.
Professor Milkman, through your extensive research, you have identified that there are these seven barriers to change.
How did you discover them and what are they?
So I've been studying behavior change for roughly 20 years.
I run a research center at the University of Pennsylvania called the Behavior Change for Good Initiative.
And in doing my work, one of the things I noticed is that most people and organizations that are trying to create change they approach it with a one size fits all mentality sort of you know, Let's set big, audacious goals.
Let's visualize success.
Let's coach people towards the change they need.
And often that wasn't clicking.
And one of the things I started to notice was that it seemed really critical, before taking that step, just like a doctor would try to diagnose you know, when a patient comes in with a headache, what's causing the headache, before coming up with a cure.
We need to do the same for behavior change.
We need to understand it to treat it properly.
And so that led to sort of starting to dig and say what are the kinds of barriers that are consistently arising that seem to be holding people back as they're trying to make change?
And I have 180 people scientists associated with this research center that I co-direct with Angela Duckworth at the University of Pennsylvania.
These are not my seven barriers.
These are really the barriers that the field has unearthed that all of these scientists with all different backgrounds studying change had been building over a long time period and that I'd been contributing to as well.
Synthesizing that and recognizing we need in order to be able to offer solutions, we need to diagnose what's the specific barrier.
And we see much better results when we're tackling the barrier that is actually underlying the problem than when we try these sort of universal solutions.
I love this because, if you start with the premise that that the person listening or me or anybody has a desire to change,
Like you earnestly want to feel healthier.
You want to make more money.
You want to lose weight.
You want to save money.
You want to spend more time with your family and friends.
So you have this authentic desire But then all of a sudden, everything just falls apart.
And so I love that, through all this research, you've identified that there are seven barriers that we probably don't even realize are there, that are preventing us from doing the things that would make the change that we so desperately want possible.
So what are the seven barriers based on research to our ability to change?
Well, the first is the challenge of just getting started.
You have to begin.
After that, impulsivity, which is our tendency to want things to feel instantly gratifying.
Then we have procrastination, putting it off.
Why do today what I could put off until tomorrow?
Forgetfulness.
If it's not top of mind, I'm not going to follow through.
So we need to make sure that we remember forgetting.
Laziness, which sounds like an insult but really is a compliment, because it's good to take the path of least resistance.
It's great that we're lazy, but it can be a barrier when you want to change that.
You're wired to prefer shortcuts and easy solutions.
And then confidence.
If you don't believe that you can make a change, then it's going to be really hard to convince yourself to follow through.
And then finally, conformity is another barrier to change.
The people around me, I look at what They do.
And and I believe that's all that's possible for me.
And so I conform to those norms.
And that can be a barrier.
If it's not, if conformity is not shaping me to make the changes I want to make.
What I love about this is you're providing us a framework so that we can understand the way that we operate and then figure out workarounds.
And so you talked about not getting started.
Impulsivity procrastination forgetfulness laziness, which is basically having to deal with the habits you already have and your automatic behaviors and the shortcuts you already take.
Lack of confidence and that discouragement that it's not going to work, and then conformity.
What was interesting for me, as you were going through it, and I'm sure as you were listening or watching on YouTube, you probably were like oh, that's my problem.
Oh, that's right.
Oh, I don't have a problem with that, but I got a problem with that one.
And for me, it was like impulsivity, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, forgetfulness.
That is the bane of my existence.
It's important to me, but oh my God.
And so I want to go those step by step and talk about what the research says about around each one of these seven, because whatever goal you have, whether it's saving money or it's finding a new job, or it's meeting somebody and falling in love or losing weight all of these things you're going to come up against one of these seven internal barriers.
Or more than one.
Or more than one.
Well, let's dig into the first one, which I think is something we all struggle with sometimes, which is just this barrier of just getting started.
That's a big barrier for a lot of us is I know I should do it.
I know I should do it, but when will I do it?
I think the fresh start effect is the best tool we have for motivating a new beginning, for motivating us to
There are other tools we're going to talk about that you can also leverage.
That will give you a little extra kick to motivate you to begin.
But when I think about what's the best matched scientific tool that can help us get going when we have been struggling to start, fresh starts are the one.
Can you break down your research and explain what the fresh start effect is?
I would love to.
This is one of my favorite things I've ever studied.
And I should say the lead author is my former student, Hengchen Dai.
She's a brilliant UCLA professor.
And I should actually back up because I think the story of how this came about is kind of fun.
I visited Google's headquarters in Mountain View, California.
15 years ago, roughly at this point.
And I was at a big workshop with lots of people talking about their HR operations.
They were looking for ways to help their employees take advantage of programs, like you know, new educational trainings that they were offering their gyms that were available, these kinds of things right.
All the employee benefits that they know improve performance, but that a lot of people are not using.
And I got this amazing question.
The question was okay Katie, we are completely convinced that we should be using behavioral science tools to encourage adoption in all the ways that you've laid out, but is there some ideal moment where, when our employees are going to be most open to making a change and adopting these tools that we have waiting at the ready?
Understanding when it is that all of us are most open to making a change can be really valuable.
So that's what started the work.
We got really interested in the idea that there are moments when people are more motivated to make a change than others, that this is something that waxes and wanes.
But we wanted to understand if there was something systematic about when it is that people are most motivated.
And the first thought bubble I had, which I suspect some of you who are listening are also thinking about, is well, New Year's is kind of a a special moment, right.
We know actually that 40 of Americans and this is a global phenomenon, but in America it's 40 of us make New Year's resolutions.
We say at the beginning of the new year, we're going to do something different in our lives.
We're going to make some positive change.
And okay, fine.
That's one moment.
But what I got interested in and started talking to Hang Chen about when I came back to my office after that trip was the What is that a microcosm of?
Like, there must be other moments, too.
What is it about New Year's?
And where else can we find that magic fairy dust and sprinkle it on people?
That gives you this sense of a fresh start.
And so we started reading and learning, and what we learned is there's this whole literature on something called autobiographical memory.
And what it teaches us is that the way we think about our lives is not linear.
We actually look back on our lives like we are characters in a novel and that there are chapter breaks in our lives that separate the way we think about who we were, who we will be.
And those chapter breaks arise at predictable moments.
So you can think about big chapter breaks.
Big chapter breaks would be something like you know you started this podcast or you started a new job or you moved to a new city.
Maybe you started a new relationship, by the way, positive and negative chapter breaks in our lives.
And when we bookend those chapters, what we do is we feel like we're making a major transition.
And a new chapter that we open is a new beginning.
To us.
We feel more separated from who we were before us before I moved to Boston, before I took this job at company XYZ, before I got that promotion.
That was the old me.
And I feel this is the new me now at that chapter break.
That's what's happening on New Year's.
We feel, okay, last year is over.
I'm chapter breaking that.
That was the old me who didn't get in shape, who didn't make the promotion at work.
But this year is going to be different.
And we can set the old me aside and move on and say I'm going to be optimistic and different this time because of that chapter break.
And what we learned in our research is those chapter breaks arise actually a lot more frequently than maybe we would perceive.
There's the big ones that I just talked about, those big life transitions that are really relatable, but actually we see little mini chapter breaks every Monday.
Every Monday?
Every Monday is a fresh start.
Every new month, the celebration of every birthday dates like the start of spring, Labor Day, Memorial Day and it depends on what your culture and customs are, but there are these moments that demarcate time and give us a sense of a new beginning, and they're incredibly frequent.
People are naturally gravitating towards these moments that feel like fresh starts in order to make change.
From a common sense standpoint.
I can kind of try to make sense of it, because I'm like well, I remember my birthday and it feels like a big thing.
Three months from now feels kind of generic.
But in terms of what's actually going on in your brain, why does a Monday feel, or a birthday, or the first day of school, or an anniversary?
Why do these things create this psychological thing called a fresh start effect?
Yeah.
Well, there's two things that are happening.
One is at those moments we tend to step back and think more big picture about our lives, because they're breakpoints.
So the start of school.
Just think what's happening before the start of school for every kid and adult.
You're like lying in bed the night before thinking about this new beginning that's coming.
What's it going to be like?
There's all this change that's already in the air.
There's a shift point.
And that primes you to think about what else you want to change.
You're thinking big picture, not just head down doing it the way you are in the third week of school, just trying to get through.
You're really having those big picture thoughts about your goals.
So that's part of it.
But the other part is this true psychological distinction that arises at these moments.
We literally feel like our identity is a little different.
Because we've turned the page on a new chapter and we feel like either we're going to be, if we're looking forward, a new person.
You're like, yeah, after my 35th birthday, I will be ready to start saving.
That is a good moment because that's going to be a break point for me.
I'm going to be a different me in my 35th year.
I know I've got this, right?
So you can pin your hopes to that transition point that feels like it's coming, or to the transition point you're feeling right.
The first day of the new year, you can say that was the old me.
This is the new me.
We don't think about time as one linear experience.
We bucket it.
We have these buckets that we put time into and we say you know, it's before New Year's and after New Year's.
Those are it's just a calendar.
It's all made up every day is one day before one day after another day.
But that's not how we experience the world.
It's a really different day when it's a new year.
It's a different day when it's a Monday.
It's a different day when the month changes.
It's a different day when you get that promotion.
That day feels different and unique from other days and it makes you feel different and unique and, like you, have a new beginning and a fresh start and some distance from what didn't go well before.
That makes you optimistic about what you can achieve now.
Is there any research or any strategies that you have that give you an extra boost for the fresh start, specifically around New Year's?
I think the most important thing about thinking about New Year's and thinking about fresh starts is that all it does is get you started.
A fresh start is just a little extra motivation to say, yes, I want to do this.
Yes, I'm ready.
But it doesn't get you to the finish line.
And I think this is why New Year's resolutions get such a bad rap.
I do a lot of interviews around New Year's with reporters and like they always ask well, why should we make New Year's resolutions?
Should we just jettison this year?
Because I read that, you know, 80% of them fail.
And I think they're 100% right to ask that question.
But it sort of misses the point because all a fresh start is, is motivation to begin.
But that doesn't get you anywhere if you don't have a bunch of tools at your disposal that are going to help you succeed.
Beginning is not enough.
So that's the thing that I think everyone should know about fresh starts.
If you want to make the most of that fresh start, You're going to need a plan.
And we're going to talk about some of the tools that will help you make more of that fresh start.
But you're not just going to need motivation on the first day of January or on Monday in order to get most things done.
You're going to need a lot more than a fresh start.
You're going to need the fresh start to get you ready to go.
And then now you're at the starting blocks.
And what are you going to do to get to the finish line?
How can the person listening or watching on YouTube create a fresh start right now?
Like right now I'm listening.
I want a fresh start.
Professor Melkman, how do I do this?
Give it to me.
So the truth is, we hoped there was some like magic formula, you know, like spin around three times and shred a piece of paper and you can make a fresh start out of thin air.
I will tell you, it does not seem possible.
We've tried things like telling people it's the 100th day of the year.
It's the perfect time for you to have a fresh start.
And guess what?
You know, they look at us with eyes glazed and they're like, what are you talking about?
It has to actually feel meaningful for this particular effect to be useful.
What we really need to do is actually identify moments that are meaningful, fresh starts to us, and make plans to tackle change at that time.
That seems to me to be the most useful thing.
Or if we're trying to help someone else, We can point out fresh start opportunities for them to peg their hopes to.
If they keep saying, no, I'm not ready to do that.
No, I'm not going to make that change.
You can point out, OK, let's make a commitment.
And here's a suggestion.
I see this moment coming up.
You know, you have a birthday coming up next month.
You have this big promotion.
I know you're about to move into a new apartment.
That's a really good time to make this change.
You're going to be at a new beginning.
It's a perfect moment to do it.
What are going to be the fresh starts that stand out on your calendar and that give you that sense of a new beginning?
Personalize it and find the right ones so that you can lean into them and accept that motivation.
I am so excited that you're here.
I also am excited about our sponsors.
So I wanna take a quick pause so they can share a few words with you.
And honestly, this is the perfect moment for you to share this conversation with someone in your life who has been trying to make a change, somebody who's stuck, somebody who doesn't realize there are these seven hidden barriers that are stopping them and stopping you and stopping me.
We all deserve these evidence-based tools so we can get what we want.
And don't go anywhere.
Professor Milkman is going to continue to reveal and then remove these hidden barriers to change when we return.
So stay with me.
Welcome back.
It's your friend Mel Robbins.
Today, you and I are in class with Professor Katie Milkman, who's one of the top behavioral scientists in the world.
She's also a professor at Wharton School of Business, and she is revealing the seven hidden barriers that are keeping us from getting what we want.
More importantly, she is removing them so we can change our life this year.
So, Professor Milkman, we've talked about one of the barriers.
Let's move on to the next one.
Impulsivity.
This is one of my favorites.
I think this is the one I struggle with the most.
You've heard, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.
There's a lot in the popular culture suggesting it's your problem and just work through it.
What research shows is helpful for dealing with impulsivity is just changing the nature of whatever it is.
You need to do so that it is instantly gratifying.
Can you give me an example?
Yes.
Yeah.
So imagine you want to get in shape.
Okay.
And there are two paths that you could take.
One path would be go to the gym and look for the most efficient exercise you can do in 30 minutes to burn calories and make your body fitter.
Maybe it's like the maximally punishing Stairmaster.
That's the one.
Okay, there's another strategy you could think about, though.
Instead of going for efficiency.
When you go to the gym, you could think what am I going to enjoy most while I'm here?
That's going to move my body.
And maybe you sign up for a Zumba class with a friend.
And I want to note okay, it's a little less efficient if you go to the Zumba class.
Probably per calorie, per goal you're trying to accomplish, but you like it.
And what research shows is that most of us think the right thing to do is that effective, efficient path.
I'm going to get on the Stairmaster, but we're wrong.
There's really wonderful work by Cornell's Caitlin Woolley and University of Chicago's Ayelet Fishbach showing that that is a mistake.
When we instead nudge people to pursue their goals in a way they enjoy, like going to the Zumba class instead of getting on the maximally punishing Stairmaster, suddenly they actually start enjoying what they're doing and they persist longer, which is what almost all of our goals are about.
You're not going to get in shape in one workout.
You need to keep coming back to the gym.
You need to keep doing it.
And so find a way to make it fun to do the thing that you want to do in the long term to achieve your goals.
I like to call it the Mary Poppins effect.
Mary Poppins says a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.
Greatest nanny of all time.
And she's right about that, not just for kids, but for adults.
We need to be looking for ways to make things that are good for us in the long run rewarding in the short run.
Because we're present biased doesn't mean we can't achieve our long-term goals.
We just have to change the way we're pursuing them so they're rewarding in the short run.
The research shows that if you can make it fun and easy, your own impulsive nature will actually stay focused on the thing that's fun and easy, versus avoiding it because you made it too hard.
Is that a way to unpack that?
It's beautiful.
It sounds so obvious that it almost seems crazy that all of us have the wrong mental model, but almost all of us have the wrong mental model of thinking.
No, no, no, no.
There's something wrong with me if I can't do hard things.
I just have to push through.
But actually no, you just have to find a way to transform the hard thing which PS.
It's not always possible, but it's often possible.
And it's not our instinct to try to change the way we pursue these goals so that they are more instantly gratifying.
And once you teach people that this is actually the way to be more successful and achieve more, A lot of really good things happen.
Are there other ones you want to talk about right now that are related to impulsivity?
Because, like if you can't figure out how to make filling out the application for financial aid fun and you keep avoid.
You know what I'm saying?
Because you're distracted by your phone, or you're distracted by this, or you're impulsive because you have this present bias and you want to move toward the thing that's fun now.
Yeah.
One of my favorites is a strategy I used in my own life and continue to use that I then turned into a science experiment.
It started... We're here in Boston.
I was a graduate student here.
And as a first-year graduate student, I knew I needed to move my body.
I was a college athlete and...
Exercise is very important to my mental health.
It's important to all of our mental health, let's be honest.
But for me, it was like particularly critical as a stressed out first year graduate student.
But at the end of a long day of classes, with problems that's waiting ahead of me, I found it really hard to motivate myself to go out into the Boston winter.
Oh, it was dark at four o'clock in the afternoon.
Exactly.
And like get to the gym and work out.
So what I really wanted to do was just curl up on my cozy couch.
And I like I was really I love reading.
For a lot of people, they'll think, you know, binge watch TV.
I love that too.
I was really into the Harry Potter novels at that time.
They were fairly new.
You know, I just wanted to sink into fiction and go to another place.
And what I realized was that, if I could actually combine those two things, there was a magical solution awaiting me.
So specifically, I set a rule for myself.
I don't get to enjoy Harry Potter unless I'm at the gym exercising.
In fact, I started listening to audiobooks and what happened was sort of life-altering for me as a graduate student who really needed to move and have that motivation.
Instead of coming home at the end of a long day and wasting time, all I wanted to do was get my workout clothes on and go find out what happened next to Harry Potter and Voldemort right.
So I... hustled over to the gym, and then I'm listening while I'm exercising.
The other magical thing is these are complementarities.
So this is the word economists use to describe two things that are better together than apart, like peanut butter and jelly.
They're complements.
And that's how exercise and entertainment are, because you need to be distracted from the pain of that workout.
And so suddenly, I didn't even notice that I was sweating and that it was hard, because I was so engaged and engrossed in what I was listening to.
So time flies while I'm at the gym.
I have no guilt associated with indulging in my entertainment that day.
I go back to my house and I'm totally ready to focus on my work.
And it was like magic.
And so I actually decided, hey, this could be useful to other people because this is amazing for me.
This is really changing everything.
Like started getting better grades.
I was feeling great.
Everything felt so different.
So I did research on this tool, which I call temptation bundling, which is Find some chore that is important to your long-run goals.
But it feels like a chore when you're doing it and find something tempting that you love and only let yourself enjoy that temptation while you're doing the chore.
So we did our first research experiment on it with exercise and audiobooks, actually.
We randomly assigned some people to only have access to tempting audiobooks while they were working out at the gym.
And other people got an equally valued gift certificate so they could have gone and bought audiobooks or other entertainment.
We didn't give them that hint.
And we found it helped people exercise 56 more to have to come back and go to the gym after they'd started listening to an audiobook if they wanted to find out what happened next.
In fact, we did one study where just suggesting this to people led to durable increases in exercise.
We suggest they do this.
We give them a free audiobook and we see durable benefits for months later.
So that's one set of research.
When we have a family dinner, I put on music.
I love that.
When it's time to clean up?
Yeah, because now it's fun.
And everybody's kind of now dancing and having fun.
By the way, that's very Mary Poppins.
Mary Poppins, right?
Do you remember?
Maybe I'm too into Mary Poppins, right?
Of course I love Mary Poppins, yes.
But there's like, you know, they sing and they dance while they're doing all the chores.
That's a Mary Poppins scene.
So without an element of fun.
Other examples that you've seen in readers of your work or students or their research that like really sparked something for the person listening.
Or I, like you, know Saving Your Favorite podcast probably the Mel Robbins podcast for when you're doing household chores, right.
So now instead of feeling...
Like it's kind of miserable to clean the bathroom or to fold the laundry.
Like there's something you're looking forward to that's going to make that time fly.
So there's a lot of different ways you can do this.
And it's really.
It's another one, just like Fresh Starts, where there is a personal taste element to figuring out what's the right one for you.
What's your temptation?
Something you crave that you want to maybe limit a little bit your access to that you could combine with something that's important to you but might feel like a chore if you didn't have this temptation in the equation.
I love that.
One of the barriers that you've identified that we have internally to changing is procrastination.
What can we do to overcome that?
That's a really hard one, but it's really related to what we've been talking about with impulsivity.
So procrastination is a problem for all of us because we want things to feel good right now.
And so we'd rather delay until later the thing that is hard.
One solution is, think about this as having two sides, this equation.
Like I can either make it more enjoyable to do the hard thing or I can make the penalty of not doing the hard thing greater.
Think of it, carrots and sticks.
Okay.
So we've been focused on carrots.
Like, let's change.
Yes, make it easy.
Let's bundle it with stuff that we like to do.
That's the carrot solution.
Yes, okay.
Procrastination often works pretty well with the sticks solution.
We're used to other people helping us with sticks.
Let me give you some examples.
Your boss, who gives you a deadline, helps you get that work done, as opposed to letting the report take months and months.
That is good management.
Someone has said, nope, it has to be due.
I need it by this date.
You've got to finish it.
And if not, you know there's consequences for your performance review.
Another example of someone else helping us and constraining us with a stick would be something like maybe you're tempted to speed on your way to work.
You know, that would be instantly gratifying.
But you know that there is a police officer out there somewhere with a speed camera and if you get caught you're going to get a ticket.
So there's a consequence.
There's a stick if you speed.
So those are consequences that other entities like your boss, whatever, is taking care of.
Or your partner or your family or somebody.
Mom's going to be mad.
My partner's going to be upset if I don't do this.
So got it.
So we're used to those other consequences.
Yes.
We can do the same thing to ourselves, which sounds weird, but we can impose sticks on ourselves.
And there's a whole lot of research showing this is helpful.
So let me give you a very concrete example.
You can, this is a weird one to start with, but I think the most powerful one.
You can literally put money on the line that you agree you will forfeit if you fail to achieve a goal by a certain date.
And you can choose a referee who will hold you accountable.
And you are fining yourself for failure on that goal.
Say you really want to meditate three times a week.
It's important to you.
But you're worried there's so many other things you're going to procrastinate on actually doing.
But you have a partner who would know if you meditated, because your goal is to do it in the morning.
So you say okay, I'm going to do this and I'm going to find myself 10 if I don't meditate three times this week.
And I want you to hold me accountable.
You ask your partner to be your referee.
There are websites, and of course you can just do this informally too, like Beeminder and Stick, which I have no affiliation with.
That will let you put money on the line, choose a referee and then find yourself if you fail to achieve that goal.
And it turns out this is an extremely effective way to compel change.
One of my favorite studies on this is with one of the toughest things to change, which is smoking.
There's this amazing study.
Dean Carlin of Northwestern University was one of the leads on this project, where they got a bunch of smokers to sign up for a smoking cessation program.
They randomly assigned them to different groups.
Some of them get standard smoking cessation tools.
We're going to, you know, coach you and explain why this is so important and give you all the usual.
The other group gets that too.
And access to a bank account they can put money in for the next six months that they know will be taken away from them if they fail a urine test for nicotine or cotinine, which are signals that you're still smoking.
So six months down the line, you lose all the money in that bank account.
And you don't have to put any money in that bank account, by the way, right?
You're choosing to build up a fine for yourself.
It reduced the rate at which people were smoking by 30 if they were randomly assigned to have access to that account.
I'm not talking about using it.
Plenty of people didn't use it.
Just having a way to find yourself reduced smoking dramatically.
You can find yourself for failure to accomplish your goals.
And that's a really powerful way to achieve more.
Now, the same principle can be applied to, with less extreme measures.
So it doesn't literally have to be a monetary fine.
You can think of other ways to create some consequence that's undesirable if you don't succeed at your goal right?
It can be You just tell somebody who means a lot to you that you're trying to do this thing and to ask you if you've accomplished it, and make you prove it to them.
And then you'll have a little shame and disappointment in the face of someone who you respect if you haven't achieved it.
That's a soft commitment device.
It's the same idea.
It's still creating some sting.
Another form of commitment device is simply to make it harder to do the thing that you don't want to do.
So it's sort of like a penalty to make it hard to, for instance, eat junk food by taking it all out of your house.
Now it, quote unquote, costs more to get junk food.
It doesn't literally, but instead of being able to go to my pantry, which is very, very easy, I now have fined myself by forcing myself to walk all the way to the grocery store or get in the car and drive somewhere to get the junk food.
So that is a form of commitment device as well.
When you create a friction, you make it harder to do the thing.
And that's another way you can tackle procrastination and also impulsivity.
Really, there's...
They blend together because they come from the same underlying psychology.
Let's talk about forgetfulness.
This is the bane of my existence.
I will own that.
I probably have used this as an excuse or a crutch, but there are so many things in my life that I want to and I mean to make a priority about, or I say I'm going to, and then I just forget.
We have a lot of confidence that we will remember things because they feel important to us in the moment when we're thinking about them, right?
You're lying in bed at night and you're like, oh, I definitely need to do that tomorrow.
And it's so important.
Of course, I'll remember.
But economists call this an empathy gap.
We don't understand who we'll be tomorrow.
We don't know what it'll be like.
We think, yeah, this will always be top of mind because it's top of mind and burning right now.
But then you wake up, you know, you have your coffee, you get into the swing of your day.
And even though it was really important, it's gone, right?
And there's this really interesting research from the 1800s on memory decay.
You know, within hours, 70 of something you try to memorize is gone.
Like we just lose information at a shockingly high rate.
And that was the 1800s.
I mean, I can only imagine now.
There was not even social media distracting us at that point.
Well, Professor Milkman, I love what you say that you don't fail because you don't care.
You fail because you forget.
So we have to understand that forgetting is a barrier.
And then there are structural changes we can make.
What are they?
So one that's actually gotten a fair amount of attention, though it's maybe a little bit bygone is simple checklists.
Let's just think about what surgeons do that makes them more effective.
They have checklists in operating rooms so they don't forget to you know.
Extract the tool that otherwise would end up in your chest cavity right.
There are really, really important jobs where people create checklists and structures.
Pilots have checklists.
You can have checklists in your life as well, and you shouldn't feel bad about it.
They're incredibly effective at improving our performance.
But even a step less intense than a checklist is making really concrete and detailed plans.
One thing that research has shown and this is mostly work by Peter Golwitzer of NYU is that people are much more successful at achieving a goal when they make a concrete plan about when they'll do it, where they'll do it, how they'll get there.
And I like to call them Q-based plans.
Q-based plans?
Yes.
Like the letter Q?
No, like your stage Q, right?
You've got to remember the Q to say your lines.
Okay, gotcha.
What are the three things we're writing on our Q-based plan?
So ideally, first of all, you need a Q in your Q-based plan.
So the Q could be a point in time.
Like, when are you going to do this thing?
But the Q could be something else.
Maybe you're not exactly sure when you're next going to pass by the pharmacy and be able to pick up the medication you need to grab, or When you're going to have the next opportunity to talk to your daughter, who only calls every so often.
And so the cue can be if my daughter calls or if I walk by the pharmacy.
It doesn't have to be at 3 p.m. on Tuesday.
So the cue is some trigger that you're going to need to remind you.
This is when I enact the behavior.
Gotcha.
So when am I going to do it?
It's either if this happens then or here's the time and the date I'm doing it.
Exactly.
So when are you going to do it?
Where are you going to do it?
How are you going to get there?
Really simple.
Get those plans in order.
Because if it's not planned out, if you don't actually have a cue that will trigger oh oh, it's noon.
I said I would do this then.
You're far less likely to follow through.
And the way that we store memory is is through these cues.
That's what triggers our memory.
So cues are really critical.
The other thing that it does is it creates a commitment that's no longer a vague intention.
Oh yeah, I plan to go to the gym at some point this week.
I plan to meditate at some point.
Now there's a specific point in time and you are letting yourself down if you don't follow through at that point in time.
You can no longer...
Convince yourself, oh, later, yes, later I'll get to it.
So it's creating that accountability for yourself if you push it off further.
That's also important.
So there's forgetting, there's an accountability component.
And also it can help you think through obstacles when you make these plans.
So I'm a parent.
And if I haven't figured out who's going to be taking care of my nine-year-old, I can't be at this other place, right.
If I haven't figured out who's going to take this meeting for me, I can't be at this other place.
So, whatever it is that might be an obstacle, this planning process helps you ensure that it doesn't trip you up at the last minute before you can get it out of the way.
And it's a really simple tool you can use in your own life.
Anytime there's something you're worried you might forget, that's important to follow through on.
Obviously, reminders are incredibly important too.
Like put it on your calendar, send yourself, your future self an email that's triggering that time.
So, but sometimes we literally can't have those elements there to remind us to at the right moment.
And so in those cases the cue, like when my daughter next calls that's when I will do X Y, Z can be important as well.
You know, I just kept sitting here thinking about how not only is it helpful to understand that there are these simple, evidence-based things you can do
When am I going to do it?
Where am I going to do it?
How am I going to do it?
It made me realize how often I am hoping something is going to happen and I'm leaving it to accident, versus making a plan and being serious about it actually happening.
You know what I mean?
Like I think that there's a lot for me where I have a lot of things that I would like to change, but it sort of lives in the maybe someday it'll be wonderful when I get around to it.
And then everything else about life takes over.
And the simple truth is, if I look in the mirror and I'm being honest with myself, I never made a plan.
I never even sat down to say, okay, I want to see friends more this year. when am I going to do it?
Where am I going to do it?
How am I going to do it?
Versus just sort of throwing the wish into the air and hoping that somehow it magically ends up happening.
I'm just sitting here going Mel, you just literally left.
You've left some of the most important things that you want in life to chance.
It can also help to have other people involved in this process.
We have this study where everybody signs up for a program to help them exercise more regularly with a friend, but we randomly assign them to either be paid if they go to the gym whether or not their friend shows up or only if they and their friend both show up.
Oh.
So you and I, they were friends.
We're gym buddies.
We signed up for this program.
Either we could be in the condition where we're each paid a dollar, regardless of whether we show up together whenever we go to the gym.
Or we're in the condition where, Mel, you and I can only earn a dollar if we show up together.
Oh.
So that's much harder.
We have to like coordinate and plan our workout, by the way.
And it turns out we're going to go 35 more if we're in that second group where we have to coordinate and we have to show up together.
Because I'm not going to let you down.
That's right.
I'll let myself down all day long.
When you make a plan, sometimes you can make it stronger when it's with someone else and there's an accountability element.
And that can be part of what makes the plan better.
By the way, it also makes it more fun when you pursue your goals in tandem with a friend.
So I would just layer on a little bit of extra magic sauce from behavioral science if you can.
When you're making a plan about something you want to do regularly, is there also a way you can work something social into your plans?
You have accountability and you have commitment and also a little bit of fun, because in that particular study, the tandem goal pursuit ended up being more effective, both because it was more fun and because of the accountability and, of course, because of the forced planning.
You know, I need to take a quick break.
I don't want to.
I mean, I love my sponsors, but I just want to keep digging into these barriers and removing them and learning about this super cool research.
Take a minute.
Please be generous with this.
Please help the people in your life remove these barriers.
Please help them benefit from this research, especially if they're driving you crazy.
I mean, if you can't change them, Professor Milkman might be able to, and they don't even need to know.
That's why you sent this to them.
It's a great gift when you support somebody in changing their life.
Alrighty, don't go anywhere.
We have still more barriers to remove when we return, so stay with us.
Welcome back.
I am so excited that you're here.
Thank you for being interested in creating a better life for yourself.
And isn't Professor Milkman just awesome?
As much as I feel called out, you probably feel called out too.
You know, impulsivity.
Hello, it's Mel Robbins.
I love this.
I feel empowered.
Thank you for being here.
And thank you, Professor Milkman.
I feel like I'm going to change my life this year.
And now I got the evidence-based tools.
So let's just jump back in.
Let's talk about laziness.
This is one of the seven internal barriers to you being able to change.
What does the research show and what are some evidence-based strategies we can use to overcome bad habits that keep us from changing?
Great.
Okay, so we want the easiest solution.
We want the path of least resistance.
So the first piece of advice, we don't even have to get to habits.
The first piece of advice, we're gonna get to habits in a moment, is just...
Make the easiest thing in your life.
Make the automatic thing that happens the thing that is good for you whenever you can.
So, you know, when you open your computer screen, you open your browser.
Does it take you to a social media website that you may not want to get sucked into?
Or does it take you to learn about something interesting?
Does it take you to the latest Mel Robbins podcast?
Where do you want it to take you?
Think proactively about what you want the defaults in your life to be.
When you get a paycheck, does a portion of it automatically get transferred over to a savings account, so that you have to take no steps whatsoever and saving is happening.
What are the defaults that you can set so that the lazy thing to do is something you like?
That's, you know, keeping healthy snacks in the pantry.
That's... having a workout machine that's nearby.
The further, by the way, you are from a resource whether it's a gym where you wanna go exercise or a health clinic where you wanna get health services the less likely it is you're gonna show up and do that thing, because there's friction.
Now you have distance holding you up.
So think about how do you create minimal friction between you and the good things you wanna do and maximize the friction, make it far away to do all the things that are bad.
That's one way of taking advantage of laziness.
The second part of laziness, though, is habits.
Okay.
So habits are these automatic behaviors that we fall back on because we've built a habit loop.
And if people may be familiar with The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg or Atomic Habits by James Clear.
These are great books that I think have done a nice job popularizing this idea of a habit loop.
Generally, habits form because there's some consistent context we find ourselves in, like the kitchen in the morning or bathroom at night, and we're used to going on autopilot and taking an action like brushing my teeth in the bathroom at night or making a pot of coffee in the kitchen in the morning, and it gives a consistent reward.
The coffee wakes me up, and that feels good.
Or the toothpaste makes me feel a little tingly and minty, and that feels good.
So you need to have a consistent context, which is your cue.
You engage in the behavior. you get a reward and you repeat.
And you repeat that cycle often enough, it turns into a habit.
And in fact we did some research with machine learning where we looked like how long does it take for things to be habitual?
And we found it's different for every person.
Depends on how complex the activity is, but it's not...
It's like order of magnitude weeks for something simple like washing your hands if you're a hospital caregiver.
Order of magnitude months for something more complicated like exercising at a gym.
So be patient with yourself if you're trying to build a good habit.
But we want to put things on autopilot as much as possible by intentionally following that habit loop, so that we actually stop thinking about it and just start doing it right.
That's the magic of making the coffee in the morning and brushing your teeth, because it's so automatic and you've done it so many times.
You're not thinking about it.
You're literally doing it mindlessly.
And that's actually very good if you're trying to build a good habit to have it happen mindlessly.
Now we can talk about you know, But don't you want to be mindful and enjoy all the good things you're doing?
But sometimes you just want the good things to happen so your mind can wander to other topics.
You don't really need to be present necessarily for all of the nitty gritty stuff in life that you want to have happen to be successful.
So, first of all, recognize the habit loop and try to be intentional about can you find a context that's going to trigger you and then where you're going to do this behavior, you're going to repeat it and find a way to make it rewarding.
And the more you repeat it, the more likely it is that this is going to start to feel automatic and no longer effortful.
And in fact, there's this really neat research Angela Duckworth did with Brian Gala, two academics.
A lot of us think that self-control is what makes people repeatedly engage in good behaviors.
And actually what they found is a lot of the people we thought were self-controlled.
They just built habits.
And that's what they were following.
You thought that person was so self-controlled because they eat so well.
Nope, they just have a habit.
They actually aren't making a conscious decision to eat that healthy lunch, or to exercise in the afternoon, or to meditate, or to come to a meeting prepared with a plan.
That's their habit.
And so habits are a big part of what makes successful people look self-controlled.
It's that they've deliberately or accidentally, but mostly deliberately, figured out a way to make this routine automatic.
Let's talk about the other internal barrier to changing, which is a lack of confidence, this sort of internal mindset that it's not going to work for you, or feeling discouraged.
Yeah. this is a really important barrier.
And, by the way, I want to emphasize that it can be.
It can be particularly challenging for people who are trying to do something where society has been telling them this isn't for you.
And there's.
You know, whatever group you belong to, there's probably something that society has said people like you shouldn't do this thing.
And and that can make confidence a particularly large barrier.
But even if the whole world has been shouting you can do it.
There's probably still something where you're lacking the confidence that you really can.
And so there are a number of things we can do about this.
One of them is trying to adopt a growth mindset, which is to recognize that when you have a setback, that doesn't mean you have a fixed ability.
It's actually something you can learn and grow from and you can get better and stronger.
That when you look at yourself and you look at where you are and you look at the things that you are trying to achieve, you recognize you're a work in progress.
And if some setback arises and it doesn't go well for you right, you have some misstep, you think.
What can I learn from that?
That's a growth mindset.
You recognize you can always get better.
A fixed mindset is thinking about yourself as a final product.
This is as good as it gets.
And if you have a misstep or a failure, something goes wrong.
Instead of thinking what can I learn from that?
How can I grow?
You think, well, that's just another bit of evidence that I am limited in my capacity.
Can you look at those as learning opportunities?
What was it that went wrong?
And how can we learn and grow from that so that this time it'll go better?
So growth mindset can be really powerful.
There's also some really fascinating research on how placebo effects can be used in this way.
So Most listeners may be familiar with the idea of a placebo effect for giving people positive results in a medical domain right,
Like it's changing your belief and expectancy in a way that then you behave differently.
We can think about what does that mean for those of us who lack confidence in a domain?
We don't believe we can do it.
Well, what that says is we basically need a placebo to build up our mindset that we can.
So like, what's the equivalent?
What would be a placebo effect in the context of confidence?
Sometimes that is finding a coach or a support structure who's telling you you've got this because you need that placebo effect.
To just to believe something different is going to be the outcome.
There's research on this in a context that I particularly love, and I think this was actually something you covered on the show recently.
I think I listened to an episode where you had Dr Ellen Langer from Harvard on and she talked about this study that I absolutely love.
Where
She and Allie Crum, a Stanford professor, brought— We just interviewed Allie, too, Professor Crum.
She's a genius.
They're both wonderful people and brilliant.
They have this amazing paper showing that when they told room attendants who were cleaning rooms in hotels that their work was exercise—.
As opposed to, you know, this is just your job, do your job.
They told them hey yeah, during doing your job you are getting the CDC recommended amount of exercise.
The women who had been told that actually lost additional weight, their blood pressure improved.
They saw all of these physiological improvements just because they believed that their work was something different, that it was helping them achieve a goal.
And so what that sort of mind-body research and placebo effect work tells us is that if confidence is your barrier, you need to find a way to change what you believe is possible about yourself, because that constraint is holding you back.
And so it may be that you need to look for a different group of friends who's going to support you and give you that confidence.
There's also some really interesting research that was done by a PhD student at the University of Pennsylvania named Lauren S Chris Winkler.
She's now a professor at Northwestern University.
And she was really interested in whether or not people who are struggling, who are not top performers, could be helped to build their confidence and motivation and achieve more through any kind of tool.
And so she started interviewing low performers and just searching for answers, asking you know, what do you think?
You know, you're a struggling salesperson.
You're not making your numbers.
Like, what do you think might help you level up your game?
You're a struggling student.
You're getting Cs.
What do you think might help level you up?
She's thinking she's going to come up with some nugget.
But in the process of collecting that data, one really interesting thing emerged, which was that everybody she talked to actually had really great insights and lit up with delight at being asked.
They basically all said, no one ever asks what I think could improve outcomes.
They're constantly giving me advice because I'm not doing very well, but no one's ever asked my opinion.
And this feels great.
And when can we talk next?
Because I love this.
And she started to wonder if actually there might be sort of a cure for low confidence in giving people a chance to coach and mentor others.
Most of the time somebody's having a tough time, we give them advice, whether they want it or not.
But what if we give them a chance to coach and advise someone who's even a little bit behind them?
In the process of doing that, a few magical things seem to happen and she has research now to prove it.
One is...
We build confidence.
We feel like maybe I have something to offer.
Somebody thought to ask me for advice.
The second thing is now I'm accountable.
I better come up with a good insight, because there's someone counting on me, someone depending on me.
And so people introspect deeply about what might work for someone to achieve more.
And they come up with good insights.
And then finally, they give that advice.
And there's something called the saying is believing effect, right?
They're going to believe it more and they're going to feel hypocritical if they don't enact the advice themselves.
So what Lauren has shown is that when we actually coach others, when we step into mentoring roles, it boosts our confidence and our confidence.
And so one thing that a lot of us can do if we're trying to achieve a goal is find someone else who's also on this journey, but who might want and benefit from some coaching who's a little further behind us.
Or if we're a leader.
If there's someone in our life who's struggling, can we find someone who's even a little further behind them and give them an opportunity to coach.
This is a great parenting trick.
My collaborator, Angela Duckworth, who was a part of the research on this, used it a lot with her girls when she was raising them.
Tell us, how do we do this as parents?
Because the way that I was thinking as you were talking, I think this is fascinating and I want to dig into this research more.
So could you come up with a fictitious person?
So hear me out here.
Yeah.
Let's say your boyfriend is struggling to get motivated to the gym or they're struggling to reach their quota.
And you turn to them and you say you know, I've got a friend of mine who's, you know, got a brother who has been really struggling with motivation around exercise.
And, you know, used to be a college athlete.
Do you have any advice?
What could help him?
What could help him?
Is that enough to make up, like, how did you and Angela use this with Angela's daughters?
That's a great question.
So Angela uses it with her daughters genuinely.
If one of them is struggling, she'll often say to that daughter hey, you know, your younger sister is also going to encounter this.
What do you think you know as you're working through it?
What do you think you've learned that might be helpful to her as she deals with the same things?
So that would be a way you could use it with kids.
But one of the experiments we did was very similar to that hypothetical.
You just gave around, you know a partner who you want to motivate to go to the gym and you make up a hypothetical person.
So this was an experiment we did with high school students in Florida who we were.
It was a fresh start, the beginning of a new year, and we brought them into computer labs and randomly assigned them to two experimental conditions.
One group took some survey questions, told us what the class was they most wanted to improve in, and then they left.
The other group took the same survey questions, told us the class they wanted to improve in, and then they spent eight minutes answering questions, giving advice to younger students about how to study more effectively.
So some were multiple choice questions.
Some were, you know, free response.
Like, how do you avoid distraction?
What do you find the best places to study?
Do you listen to music or is it better not to?
And this advice is going to be we tell them truthfully, we're going to share it with younger students.
But it's still this sort of abstract.
They're not actually talking to someone.
And we did share it with younger students, but not in that direct one-on-one way.
And that intervention just getting those kids to spend eight minutes on some advice giving that was specific about how to study more effectively significantly improved students' grades over the control group.
That didn't do it.
Now, I also want to be very clear.
These are very small effects.
So we are not turning C students into valedictorians with an eight minute exercise.
But it did have a meaningful and statistically significant effect.
So move them one point on a grade point from there.
They're going from like, you know, a scale from 50 to 100 could be my grade.
So I'm going from like a 76 to a 77.
It moved them in the class they most wanted to improve in and in math, which were the two things we set out to measure because we wanted to help them in their goal.
And math was the toughest part. subject in this particular school.
So we targeted that.
And Lauren Estrus-Winkler, who's the lead on this project, has done other work with other people in lots of other settings.
This is not just about academic performance.
It's about achieving goals around health.
It's about achieving goals related to your job.
When you are given an opportunity to coach, even if it's in this you know I'm filling out a form and sending my advice off through to some distant stranger that forced introspection, the opportunity to feel like somebody is listening to me, changes your confidence and it changes your motivation in a way that that shows real results.
You know, one thing I just wanted to reflect back is as I'm really listening to this fascinating piece of research about how, when you go from beating yourself up and telling yourself you can't handle it or you're failing at it, to being asked to to coach somebody else, one of the things that I keep thinking about is it is an example of a tool that you could use to get yourself out of a fixed mindset where you believe you can't change and you're stuck where you are.
And by looking at giving advice, you have to extract the lessons that you've learned, even if you're not good at it.
And I bet you could come up with six pieces of advice of what to do or not do.
And right there is evidence that you have the ability to change.
I love that.
That's a really nice way of coming up with a simple prescription that everyone could use right now.
That could help them improve.
It's really a great idea.
The last internal barrier to change is conformity.
Let's talk about this.
This actually bridges the internal and the external.
So this one I snuck into my list of seven with a little bit of trepidation, because it's just so darn important.
But it does bleed a little bit outside of the internal.
But it shapes our internal dialogue, who we surround ourselves with, what we see them accomplishing, what they're modeling for us.
One of my favorite studies that shows how important this is is a study that was done by an economist named Scott Carell at UT Austin.
He got data on students at the Air Force Academy and the squadrons they were assigned to as freshmen.
And this is essentially just a random group of people you're going to have to spend all your time with.
And he found that if you end up with folks who you're living with in your freshman year who were more studious—
It improves your grades.
You get some random assignment to a roommate who, you know, had higher verbal SAT scores.
You're going to be a better student.
You're going to get higher grades than if it's the opposite, if you got randomly assigned to someone who wasn't as studious.
So really interesting example of how just exposure to whoever's in your social group randomly changes your outcomes.
Sure.
What that means though, is that actually, we are constantly being shaped by whoever it is that we work with.
Whoever it is we're married to our social group.
The behaviors that they model, whether that's, you know, in the case of the college roommate situation, you know they stay in and work late on Fridays, so I think that's normal, and I should too.
Or they're, you know, really into exercise, or they are a party animal.
We... start to think, oh, this is normal behavior.
This is how I should behave too.
This is what I'm capable of because that's what other people are signaling to us.
What's normal, what's desirable, and what is possible.
And so... often that's a barrier.
If you are surrounded by other people who are not pursuing the kinds of goals that you really aspire to achieve, they can hold you back by giving you a false belief that this isn't possible for someone like you.
But if you seek out friendships, relationships you know, work companions, mentors et cetera, who are achieving at a high level, that can show you what's possible.
And also, of course, you can literally copy and paste the strategies that are effective for them.
And this is another one that feels, I think, obvious once you start talking about it, but that a lot of people aren't thinking intentionally about engineering when they have a goal looking for friendships, looking to make connections with people who are achieving the specific things you want to achieve, and trying to deliberately emulate what it is that they're doing that's working.
We did one experiment.
This is with Katie Mayer, who's a professor at the University of Alberta, and Angela Duckworth again, where we randomly assigned people to go out and copy and paste someone else's life strategy for achieving a specific goal.
Go find somebody who's doing it and copy what's working for them.
And another group.
We encouraged them to try to achieve the same goal, but we just gave them ideas that had been acquired actually by the copy and paste group.
So actually this information out there is the same.
It's the same.
But some went out and had to obtain it and try to copy someone they knew.
And the people who went out and had to obtain it and copy someone they knew did better.
They were getting that social interaction, that social information.
They're getting information that may be more personally relevant and they're seeing how it's implemented.
And so they're better able to internalize and execute.
So think about how can you use the people around you as a tool to help you change.
We also talked earlier about tandem goal pursuit, this idea of you know, if I do it with a friend, that can motivate me because I'm going to feel accountable.
I'm going to enjoy it more.
And so that's another way that conformity can be flipped from being a barrier to being a solution.
The people around us have huge power over what we achieve and whether or not we get to our goals.
And so first best is you actually engage with the people and that's what the research shows.
But if you can't find them, then trying to learn about them in other ways.
Whether it's listening to their podcast or reading their memoir.
You can seek that information about how people you aspire to be like are achieving and find out what's possible.
There are other information sources.
But first, best is having those relationships that allow you to see exactly how are they implementing and ask the questions.
And that's what our research has shown.
You know, for the person who's listening, who's like, all right, I'm ready.
I'm going to grab the fresh start, baby.
I want to make a big change and I really want to make it stick in the next six months.
What is the smartest evidence-backed way to begin?
Can you just walk us through it?
Like what you want us to do if we've got the wind at our back?
Yeah.
First set a goal and make it concrete, right?
Not vaguely, oh, I want to get in shape or I want to improve my career outcomes.
Be really concrete about that goal.
Like.
I want to start exercising three times a week until I can bench press this number of weights right?
So make it measurable, concrete, and make the plan.
When are you going to do it?
Where are you going to do it?
How are you going to get there?
And in that planning, consider, is there a way to make it fun?
Can you say when I'm going to do it, where I'm going to do it, how I'm going to get there?
And PS, it's going to be Zumba class with Mel, or it's going to be.
You know, I'm going to be temptation bundling my favorite TV show while I simultaneously fold the laundry.
You know, what is your strategy for making it fun?
So set a goal.
Concrete goal, make a plan.
When will you do it?
Where will you do it?
And how can you make it fun?
Those would be the first set of things I do.
But we've talked about other strategies you could layer on, depending on which of the barriers you see in yourself.
You might need to sprinkle in some extra reminders.
Maybe you need some social support.
If confidence is a barrier, you may need to find someone who you could mentor, who's also trying to do this.
Or maybe you need to find yourself a mentor who's going to coach you on some strategies that might make it effective and make you believe in yourself.
So feel free to layer on and sprinkle on top some of the additional tools.
But beginning with the concrete measurable, achievable stretch goal, stretch yourself a little, not a lot.
Make it measurable, make it concrete, daily bite size, make it fun.
What's your plan?
Now, if you had a bottom line, absolutely.
All the amazing research, the incredible number of tools and strategies, the insights you gave us about the seven internal barriers.
What do you think is the most important thing that you want the person listening or watching to take away from our conversation today?
If it is painful to pursue your goal, you will quit.
That is simply how we are wired.
If it's not fun, if you dread it, you're not going to keep doing it.
And almost everything we need to accomplish in life requires persistence.
So find a way to make it enjoyable.
There are so many different recipes you can use to make it fun.
You can make it fun by allowing yourself to enjoy a special treat while you're engaging in the behavior.
You can make it fun by making it social.
You do it with someone you really love.
You can make it fun in selecting a different kind of activity, right?
Instead of getting on the maximally punishing Stairmaster, now you're going to dance class.
Find a way to make it fun to do the thing that will help you achieve your goal.
That is the number one most important thing that all of us get wrong and that will lead to success.
And in my career I will say the way I make it fun to do my work every morning is I'm I work with people.
I love.
So one of the ways that you can make it fun is by making it social, finding the people, finding the tribe that makes it enjoyable to pursue this goal together.
There are lots of formulas, but do not allow yourself to find misery in your goal or you will find that you can't succeed.
Professor Milkman, what are your parting words?
One thing we haven't talked about that I think is really important is is just being kind to yourself when there's missteps.
Because change is really hard.
There is no silver bullet.
There is no guarantee.
If you start temptation bundling, if you start coaching someone else it doesn't mean with 100 certainty you will achieve your goal this week.
We're going to have missteps.
We are human.
We're fallible.
It's part of the way we are designed.
And so give yourself grace.
Recognize that setbacks are just part of the journey and have a growth mindset.
Give yourself flexibility as you are pursuing these goals.
It's really important to allow yourself a day where things go wrong.
I have a colleague named Marissa Sharif who's done wonderful work, showing that if you set a really tough stretch goal for yourself, you know I'm going to meditate seven days this week.
That's my goal.
But then you give yourself two emergency reserves.
It says, if I can't, I'm still going to count that I'm in.
I get two days where I can cheat and it still counts.
Those people who do that instead of saying my goal is five days this week, which is, by the way, identical.
They're twice as successful.
So stretch yourself, but give yourself grace.
Allow yourself to acknowledge there are emergencies.
If you're practicing a habit, it's better actually to practice it in a way that has some variety.
So you're flexible in case something comes up and you can't always get to the gym at 7 a.m.
You're actually better off having when you were trying to build that habit.
Sometimes go at a different time, so you're good at coming up with a backup plan.
So I would say it's really important to give yourself grace in all these ways, because change is hard.
There's a lot of tools that can make it more likely you'll succeed, but none of them makes it 100 likely.
You will always face setbacks and just recognize that that's part of the journey.
It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.
In fact, it means there's something right with you.
You are human.
You are normal.
And so give yourself that grace.
Find ways to get back on the wagon after you've had a setback, to motivate yourself to begin again, whether it's a fresh start or finding someone who will jump back in with you.
But give yourself that grace.
That's the most important thing I want to leave with.
Professor Milkman, thank you, thank you, thank you for the work that you do.
Thank you for coming here to our Boston studios and taking time to teach us this.
I feel so excited.
I'm ready for a fresh start just based on sitting with you.
So thank you.
With that, I just want to say thank you.
Thank you for making the time to listen to something that will help you change your life.
Professor Milkman started by talking about the fact that you have some aspect of your life that you want to make better, that people in your life have things that they want to make better, that you have goals and dreams.
And I'm excited that you spent time and invested time learning about the, the things that you can do that are based in research and science to help you achieve those goals to feel better and do better.
And there's no doubt in my mind that if you really take to heart everything that you learned today and you share this with people that you love, you will make those changes.
And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you, as your friend, that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a, And is it a beautiful thing to know that you have this operating system and there's research that you can use to help you tweak it a little bit and make small changes that make your life better.
And I really hope you do.
Alrighty, I'll see you in the very next episode.
I'm going to welcome you in the moment you hit play.
All right.
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so glad I'm here, too.
Thanks for having me.
What was the topic of the first episode?
I have no idea.
What was it?
No.
Shut up.
No way.
It was like, we'd take the first episode nine different times.
Mel didn't know what it should be.
And she was like, it was her 54th birthday.
54th birthday.
And you were like I couldn't take this first episode, so I decided to take it on my birthday and make a fresh start of my new life as a podcast host.
That's so cool.
I love that.
Full circle, baby.
Wow.
You were fantastic.
Thank you.
You're so fantastic.
Thank you for asking great questions.
It was really fun to do this.
You were fantastic.
It was really awesome to see you at work.
Thank you.
You know what's crazy?
We just realized this was our last episode of 25.
What?
Wow.
And you were in our, you featured in our first episode ever.
Oh.
This is like our best year ever in the podcast so far.
Oh, and one more thing.
And no, this is not a blooper.
This is the legal language.
You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.
This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
I'm just your friend.
I am not a licensed therapist.
And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional.
Got it?
Good.
I'll see you in the next episode.
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