How to Bridge the Generational Gap and Inspire Young Adults: Unlocking the Mentor Mindset｜Good Life Project

I think one thing that's a part of any good life is you've left a positive impression on somebody else And you can look back on the people whose lives have been changed the people who will attend your wake and your funeral And we'll write about you after you're gone and tell stories about you after you're gone and I think a life well lived as one that leaves that kind of residue

and what's nice about the mental mindset is you're just always prepared to leave that lifelong Life changing impression on somebody and you don't ever really know When that's gonna happen?

When are they gonna forget what you did and when are they gonna remember?

But if you just have that stance enough in your interactions with young people It's gonna happen leave it residue of inspiration and lives changed behind you and a mental mindset is a way that anyone can do that So whether your parent caretaker Uncle and Guardian teacher boss There seems to be this ever growing divide between Gen Z millennials extras and boomers

It's like we're all speaking different languages and lately Regardless of who you are we've been hearing so much about the disconnect between what young adults want and need And are willing to work to make happen and what the older set wants from and for them It's kind of wreaking havoc causing a lot of friction in family and personal and work relationships and And

making everybody feel like they're not seen or heard or understood and often Appreciated or respected and when you're trying to connect with or inspire even motivate folks in that pivotal 10 to 25 year range It can feel like there's an impenetrable gap the typical advice It really just doesn't work anymore if it ever did the question is what does?

How do we bridge this gap and in doing that Brids the divide of understanding and connection between young adults who want to be seen and heard and valued rightly so And parents and caretakers and teachers and bosses who want the best for those young workers and young adults But also want the best from them.

That's where we're headed with today's guest David Yeager a pioneering researcher and one of the world's leading experts on Effectively motivating young adults his new book 10 to 25 the groundbreaking Approats to leading the next generation and making your own life easier It dives deep into developing what he calls the mentor mindset and Approats that perfectly

blends exceptionally high standards Also with high levels of support and David's decade plus studying resilience and growth in young people alongside Folks like Angela Duckworth Carol Dweck and others made him one of the world's most influential Psychologists, but he also walk the walk as a middle school teacher and a coach Before becoming a professor and researcher

in this conversation He really pulls back the curtain on what truly drives young people's motivation and hunger to grow and how we get it so wrong And we explore the crucial difference between having high standards and being overly harsh as an enforcer who breeds resentment And he outlines practical steps that any parent any teacher or leader can take to embody

this mentor mindset themselves So if you want to unleash the brilliance of young people in your life This may be the most important lesson of the year for you So excited to share this conversation with you.

I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds at Mint Mobile We like to do the opposite of what big wireless does they charge you a lot We charge you a little so naturally when they announce they'd be raising their prices due to inflation We decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you.

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Honestly when I started this I thought I'd only have to do like four of these I mean it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month How are there still people paying two or three times that much?

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to dive in the especially as a parent of somebody who's sort of like right in the middle of the age range of the young folks at your new book is focused on But before we even get to the book I want to take a bigger step back and maybe a more broad step in the work that you've been doing for quite some time I recently had the opportunity to read a paper that you co-authored with Carol

Dweck back in 2019 called mindsets of view from two errors And for a lot of people listening to this they'll probably have some familiarity with Carol Dweck's name and the phrase mindset you know like fixed versus growth mindset and the general concepts you know is a huge book and Really went out into the zeitgeist about like this is how we grow this is how we learn

this is how we become more forgiving and humane in the way that we try and strive towards things And then the game like sort of like this second wave pushback a lot of people started questioning that early work And starting to point to potential like replication issues with it so I thought it was really interesting to see both of you and you've been researching this field

as well right and have you know like work with her in a former incarnation That was fascinating to see you both come together and say can we actually have this conversation in public in a way that's respectful in a way that honors or like this is the thought process from the almost like the origin story era of this work Now here is the thought process from the era that's

following that and how do we weave these together I'm so curious how that came together Well, so I was a middle school teacher and I loved working with kids, but I ultimately left the classroom because I felt like the advice I got as being trained to be a teacher wasn't great And I ended up in graduate school ended up taking care of works class on motivation she wasn't

my assigned advisor at the time And that was my first encounter with mindset research, but what really got me excited about it was this idea that you could say A or B and A would be better than B And that sounds simple, but you look at the literature and a lot of it is not as clear as that it's like well we measured this attitude or that attitude so maybe you can extrapolate

to this or that implication It's kind of like you know reading a kind of 800 word Forbes article about some concept like authenticity and work It's like what am I supposed to do with this information that's most education research So what I loved about mindset was okay if a kid's struggling don't be like you can do it you're smart because that's going to make them think

that maybe if they don't get it right they're not smart Like that kind of answer was just so satisfying for me but as I dug into the work and worked more and more with Carol Dweck as a graduate student Then I started realizing that these ideas are going to get popular and when they do people will rush to apply them everywhere and there's two phases I tend to see one is a phase

of skepticism that's like no the reason why people get ahead is like their IQ or their parents are rich or these other things It's not something as ridiculous as did you tell a kid they're smart you know and obviously we don't think that parental socialization is the only thing that matters is just the research or showing it matters more than you expect But at the same

rate people were skeptical at first if you look back to school reform or even management in the 2000s right it was all about the management performance incentives and education was are the teachers lazy and well trained or not that was the main dialogue at the time And once the beautiful experiment to work that Carol and her previous students had done started becoming

popular then there was the second phase which was oh my god this is a panacea for everything And that's about when I came on the scene and I had just come from working in very poor schools with kind of hopeless situations and parents who are pulling their hair out and I'm like Carol Everyone's going to try to use this and they're going to do it really badly and like you

have no idea how people can misuse a good idea not just in education but in like any real world setting And luckily Carol was game she was like oh my god we should actually do some research on what to do So our concern with replication predated any of the revelations around scientific misconduct or fraud or anything like that and it really came from to Carol's credit

a sense of integrity about people wanting to use your work now that it was becoming popular in her feeling like she needed to do what scientists do Which is not just figure out where your ideas work really well but where are they not working and why and that launched the second era of growth minds of research Yeah I mean it is really interesting that right because research

very often is siloed and when we think about siloing often we think about siloing between domains but also I feel like there's a fair amount of siloing that happens between the laboratory and the real world You know it's sort of like look I can prove that this happens when I can control all of the variables like this is the outcome and I can replicate that but you came

in and you said okay okay even if that's true The real impact of this work the scalable value of this work is when it actually interacts with kids in classrooms and you're coming from a classroom where it's a hard situation it's under resource and you're saying look I've been there And I see your ideas and hear issues and to her credit rather than saying I'm focused

on the laboratory she's like oh wow let's bring this into it and see if we can expand this and understand how do we create something that is robust enough to actually work not just in the laboratory but actually out in the world did I get that right?

Yeah I mean I think that you could describe a lot of the most popular social psychologists as in the business of getting an idea to work once and then promulgating it as the solution to everything that's even mildly related to that And there's a reason why they do that is because you know authors like Malcolm Gladwell have like led people to think that that's the case

that you do one study of Texans in the hallway and all of a sudden you understand aggression going back 400 years with this you know the Scottish farmers coming to the South Southern States of America And I understand the place for that approach in the economy of ideas like it makes sense to me that needs to be simple but like honestly I was coming from schools where it

is just so hard to do anything I remember thinking I don't know how to get kids to line up and go to an assembly without punching each other in the groin like that was my problem And like all of like the supposed of research best practice in the world about performance goals and mastery goals like this is not solving my problems I just come to it with the skepticism that nothing

is going to be a magic bullet but also kind of a faith in humanity and our ability to grow and learn And I think that's really where the best of mindset mindset style research sits is on the one hand you're not saying look all you need is a magic phrase and all of a sudden your that you've been a gap disappears or whatever your issue is But you're also saying look people have a lot

more agency and power than we give them credit for We often sit there thinking we need to do everything for you or if you've been harmed as a child or had a toxic upbringing then we can't possibly help you And there's a lot of beliefs like that out there at the time 15 years ago kind of crazy to say no you could take kids who actually didn't have great home lives with respect

to education and give them a seat of a powerful new idea that your brain can grow like a muscle That when you struggle in math it doesn't mean your brain is dumb at math for all time for example and then they can exert agency and be like I would like more hard homework Please teacher and then if they did that homework and they did well then the kid would be like now I know more

math like that sounds obvious but that was not at all the dialogue at the time So we've always kind of tried to split the difference between acknowledging the realities of the complexities of kids lives and anyone's live And also believing that the right message at the right time can change someone's life because it sets in motion what Greg Walton and Jeff Cohen

at Stanford have called recursive processes Make a choice here gives you a skill you make a relationship it builds you get into a harder class you don't fail you get a better job you get a better manager those life events build you believe in the power of the agency of the person Well also believing people need help to navigate where they fit in with that context it really

does speak to the underlying belief right that you look at people and you say like nobody's hopeless You know you may be in a really tough situation and you may not have entire control over your circumstances and many people don't and yet it's not you don't just completely abandoned hope That that same kid that same person can somehow access the resources needed

to feel a sense of agency even just enough so they can take an action that then gives them a response that makes them like that turns a life up in their minds as okay Or you yourself could be believing in yourself And I think that it's kind of telling who is most critical of mindset research right it's in general I mean first of all anyone who's a good scientist should be

skeptical of anything so I don't ever begrudge someone who's like I don't believe you It's like okay I'll do a better study that's fine with me it's more like the dishonest critiques I think come from one of two places one is belief people who have a belief that your genetics and your IQ are the only things that could possibly matter And so if a study purporting to show

that a message about the brain growing like a muscle has an impact that's a threat to their worldview so they're motivated to do whatever they can to discredit it But another group of people are the opposite end this is people that say look the only thing that matters is like your neighborhood and your home life and if that's not great then a little mindset message

isn't going to do anything We've found the latter group of people to be far more open to collaboration and some of our best studies have been sociologists who are inclined to say the neighborhood matters the teacher matters the school matters what do you mean a little mindset message matters And then we've said well let's see how they matter together and that's

been what's been really gratifying and exciting for us Yeah I mean the ability to sort of like to break down the silos to collaborate just say like rather than just attacking each other what if we actually run something together what if we do something that sort of bring in all the ideas and let's just test them rather than fight it out let's actually run the test and see

what the data tells us which I think and I agree with you often it doesn't happen because people are so invested in protecting where they've come from and the ideas that have that have put them into place where they currently are because to dismantle that idea Often kinds especially in the world of academia it means to then have people questioning your status and everything

that's led up to the point where if you're a senior professor or whatever the prestige or status that you have is that's on the line and people would rather defend that then get to the truth which is a weird thing Yeah I mean I think that that sad fact about a lot of the most popular and well known failings of psychology is that there often is an element of somebody who really

wanted to come across like they had discovered the secret and the thing and they were not either in their early stage studies not interested in any limitations or for whatever reason didn't want them to be public And in my experience in developmental psychology that's not really the style I mean some of the greatest developmental psychologists in the world like

Carol are very humble and open and may not be as well known publicly as Carol but are just as amazing And I think to Carol's credit she didn't get into science to look like the best or smartest she didn't see on a science to find the truth and share it What's been really fun to have her as a mentor and then try to add what I can to the next steps.

Yeah and you also reference another call for problem I guess it comes up which is like you start with an idea you prove something has worth in controlled circumstances And then in this particular case with the notion of growth mindset it then goes out into the world like Carol is a publishing the book which becomes this massive massive thing which sells like a zillion copies

and now it's in the hands of everybody and everybody saying oh I just read the book and I know how to do it right and then that goes into the law of education And then we have these things which is often been phrases false growth mindset and then when people are saying this doesn't work they're assuming that they got the message they understood that they're doing the thing

right and that the idea itself is broken rather than saying actually not there's a translation error here we're not taking that original idea and translating it into practice and that's where the breakdown is which creates sort of like another layer of complexity.

Yeah it's a weird I mean this is I don't know how much people care about this kind of an inside baseball argument but social science is weird because the clearer you are when you explain your ideas the more that readers think they can do them really well I can very few people would read a paper about how to synthesize the RNA and create the COVID vaccine to be like I'm ready

to go to my garage and make a COVID vaccine you know and in fact they write those papers in ways where they don't care if anybody reads them to be honest and they're inscrutable for the most part it's just acronym after acronym you know we're obsessed with communicating clearly and we want the ideas to have intuitive appeal and an interesting side effect is I think

people read it and they're like oh my sounds like I just say something about the brain and there we go or tell you to have a growth mindset and it would be like reading a paper about the COVID vaccine then making your own version in the garage and then giving it to a thousand people and then showing that it didn't prevent COVID and you'd be like therefore all COVID vaccines

are a lie that's the conclusion and that's a kind of what happened not for all studies because like I said there's a legitimate differences in where growth mindset works or not that's a big sample of studies that seem to show nothing but it's rarely in the end of the day and that's not the same thing but it's rarely in bad faith in general what people want to do is help

kids what's not like a criticism of the intentions but it's more an observation based on the idea that social science ideas just feel more doable than highly technical treatments but then we end up applying this kind of weird logic about whether it works or not and that's why in our work what we do is to say all right let's have the experts create the actual treatment

and let's not perfect it but make sure that it represents what we do think growth mindset is okay but then when you evaluate it then you hand it to third parties who are going to go recruit the schools and get the kids in front of the computer or whatever but at least you know that they're giving like the Pfizer version of the vaccine you want the growth mindset treatment

that Carol do act personally wrote if you're going to make a decision and anytime that's happened then you see on average replicated effects but that vary in different context and that variation that's interesting the kind of variation that's like somebody made it up then they call the local school district down the road they didn't have a control group they just

had a teacher one semester do the treatment and the next semester they didn't and then it's like 80 kids it like that's like less informative if that works that's amazing if it doesn't work it doesn't tell us much but if you give the exact same Carol do it created treatment in 76 schools across the country to all the freshmen and half get it and half don't and in some schools

you get bigger effects than other schools well that's interesting because now it's like well what is it about those schools where the really good version of the treatment is working in other schools where it's not yeah do you have some sense of that also because I know that the protocols now and you've been a part of scaling this both in person but also an online platforms

do you have a sense for what like those like the differences in the margins are that actually really lead this to get really good results and then in another set of schools not so much yeah I mean I think the first thing is that if you're trying to change someone's mindset you have to come at it with the strong argument that's clear and memorable and so the writing of the materials

have to be pretty good but once we've done that at least for a population like in our main study called the national study of learning mindsets we picked ninth graders just starting high school and we wrote it for them what are they worried about well they're worried about middle school is easier than high school all of a sudden I'm in the harder classes now I feel dumb

or I ask my colleagues for advice or help and they look at me like I'm an idiot those are the kinds of fixed minds that concerns that ninth graders have right or like not in a I'm in an easy class does that mean I'm in the dumb math I'm in a hard class is that I'm getting a seed does that mean I should drop we we're craft the treatment for that then the question is suppose we're

changing kids mindsets at that critical juncture at a very high rate like say we can 80 90% of the time we can into towards growth mindset more the idea of abilities can be developed if you read our 35 minute treatment and in general that's about the case that most people change in the direction we expected when they read the stuff that we created for them okay now think

nine months later they got higher grades are there in like harder classes what are all the things that have to happen in the interim to have that short 30 minute exercise translate into on your high school transcript you're now in algebra two rather than geometry right or you have an a in advanced algebra rather than a C so many things have to happen and in fact like

for any of us who have kids I have four kids most of my kids forget everything I say to them within four seconds it's like getting shoes and pants on right it's like in one year out the other so why would a 30 minute treatment the beginning of ninth grade last for some it's amazing that it ever does was kind of our approach so what are the things that could make a difference

and what we found is that there are things that make the growth mindset argument that you can grow your abilities you can improve more true for you in that setting their social things and if it feels more true for you there then we tend to see benefits one is the peers so do the peers seek out challenges or are the peers the kind of people who make fun of you if you ask for more

homework or you ask to correct a misunderstanding and so on so the peer group ends up being pretty important and then the second thing is the teacher so does the teacher create a culture that supports the students growth mindset and what we found is that about 35 40% of teachers in our studies national studies think you know what no matter how hard you try you're not going

to get smarter at math they have a fixed mindset about math when they believe that then they were less likely to allow students to revise and submit their work less likely to view student questions as a positive thing and more likely to say questions just slow down the class they were more likely to find ways of celebrating small successes the student have had on their

way to growth and learning so fixed mindset teachers if you can't revise your work kids are thinking if I can't revise my work if my mistakes mean that I wasn't paying attention or that you dislike me if you're looking down on me for asking the question why would I ever live out my growth mindset like it makes no sense and say you're getting punished for it right in punished

for you know that for being done hello like please I want to learn more Mr teacher and teachers like yeah but if you would have paid attention you would have known everything so get out of here is more or less what's happening and you can just think of 15 year olds as being the world's greatest hypocrisy detection machine right they're going to notice inconsistencies

between what they learned in the treatment and what the teacher's doing in the classroom and we find that fixed minds at culture squashes the treatment and that's useful information that's not like I saw one online critic who wants to be clever in the space he was like oh growth minds that only works on Tuesdays for Virgos it's like dude no it's like if the peer group

is good in the teachers supportive then it lasts if it doesn't then we only change your attitudes but it fades out how is that complicated I mean it's complicated to fix that problem but there's nothing suspicious about that pattern of results in my opinion yeah now that makes so much sense to me and we'll be right back after word from our sponsors hey prime members

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nine million families have turned to care dot com see how care dot com can help you find the care both you and your loved ones need that's care dot com or just click the link in the show notes and you're describing that also remembering some of the research I guess around what's been popularly called the pigmail effect and remembering how I think the fundamental experiment

and you can correct me if this is wrong was you like basically a teacher was told that half the game that kids were given a test and their proficiency and the teacher was told half of them were like a certain level on others were really gifted and then they retested at the end of a semester or a year and it turns out the gifted ones actually scored higher but the teacher

actually wasn't told the truth in the beginning but they reset her expectations around one group being sort of like lower performing the other group being higher performing and then the teacher and all sorts of ways that maybe they weren't even aware of treated the kids who they thought were gifted in a way that was maybe it was more growth mindset oriented and that became

this outcome did I get that kind of right as yes those Rosenfall who interestingly was like also one of the founders of meta analysis popular method in Rosenthal is an interesting guy he first got famous for studying expectancy effects and an experiment so he would like randomized laboratory assistant to either know the hypothesis or not know the hypothesis and then

would compare the data and it turns out the more that the undergraduate research assistant knew the hypothesis and maybe was rooting for it the more the more the study seemed to work that's why when I do an experiment I blind the research assistant to what we're studying and why best practice not everyone does that but they should Rosenthal at some point gave a lecture

and someone was like I bet you you could do the same thing for teachers if you told them the results of the experiments of your classroom for the year then they would root for that and make it true so he didn't tell the teachers that the half were smart he told them that half were bloomers that they were about to see a dramatic increase in their IQ so it was like a growth mindset

treatment that is like I'm giving you a starting hypothesis that your students are about to grow and then what they found is that in the same classroom the kids who were randomly signed to be labeled bloomers tended to actually increase their IQ scores more and there's all kinds of subsequent stuff like you know I think legitimate criticisms that the gains and the first

studies were so large that they're impossible like the equivalent of like changing a thousand genes you know it's like not likely but the results are very consistent with research on growth mindset and stereotype threat where basically low income kids and students of color who happen to be named bloomers therefore had the lowest starting point because of achievement

gaps and therefore supposedly had the highest slopes those are the ones who actually gain the most in our growth mindset studies we tend to find that if you already have straight A's growth mindset might help you take on more challenges but I can't make you get more A's like it's statistically impossible and so we tend to find lower achieving students who are the ones

like maybe not as confident in their abilities but they have it in them to do well those are the ones who bloom the most when we give them the growth mindset treatment.

Yeah, no that makes perfect sense to me I feel like that kind of drops us into your current or also so your reason but 10 to 25 the signs of motivating young people I'm actually just curious about that also because when you're naming something like this and you want something to appeal to a group of people or to the end of the people who are supporting them the phrase young

people some people would probably be like sure that there are those young people the young people themselves I wonder how they feel about that phrase that sort of like naming convention.

You know I ran it by a bunch of young people because I wanted to be the kind of book where you're not embarrassed your parents or teachers reading it.

You know like if your parents reading how to get through to an outrageously out of control and grateful for that it's like that's not I'm embarrassed my parents reading that book so I wanted people to proudly have it on their shelves and that people aren't they don't mind the term I mean it you know adolescent is a is a synonym because the lessons is defined as from the onset

of puberty at age 10 until you acquire an adult like role which might be 25 but the lay version of adolescence is not that age range and so you'd have to win an argument with someone before they read the book and so I didn't want to argue have that argument that makes sense but I would say that 10 to 25 you know I could have named it what we'll talk about I remember mindset

or whatever my thing was but I kept I kept just talking it to parents at like parties like cocktail parties or you know dinner parties or whatever and like you're writing a what are you writing a book about and the only thing that got them interested when I was like is when I said you know how like no one knows how to motivate from like the moment puberty strikes until like

your mid 20s and you're just constantly frustrated and it feels like you're at a loss for words and like the next generation thinks differently than you and it's totally the book will solve that problem like okay I want to read that book that's why it ended up with 10 or 25 if you care at all about someone in that age range or know someone who cares about someone in that age

range then the book is for you that makes a lot of sense to me let's talk about this a little bit more so this is going to be 10 to 25 age range whether it's 10 years ago or 10 years from now or 30 years from now as we currently have this conversation we're fundamentally talking about Gen Z who's about 12 to 27 if I if I have it right and this is a generation where you're seeing

so many people really roll their eyes like like I don't know how to I'm not to motivate them like I don't know what what what do we do with them like how do I communicate effectively they're just they seem so different than everyone else there's so much mythology around this age especially about how they're like they're like they're like they're like they're like

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because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated

the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage

because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the concept of rage because they hated the companies were mad at you adults for not protecting us you didn't create a legal environment that held these companies to accountable you just let them run rampant in market to us and now

all of a sudden you're telling us that we're short-sighted because we're hooked to cigarettes like this is the world you created so I think about that a lot where now going back to Gen Z adults think I have just made it through adolescence into the real world so I understand how it works so I'm going to explain that I'm going to explain that I'm going to explain that I'm

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