Discussion keeps the world turning.
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Welcome to Roundtable coming to you from Beijing.
I'm her young, good as always to have you along on a day's show.
Women, despite growing interest and participation in STEM education, and that stands for Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics, often encounter significant obstacles, including the Leaky Pipeline phenomenon, where many drop out at various stages due to hostile environments and gender biases.
Why does this gender disparity persist and what steps can be taken to support and retain women in these fields, traditionally dominated by men?
And we share with you what's brought us joy this week with made us happy in Roundtable's Happy Place.
For today's program, I'm joined by Lee in the studio and Steve Hatherley on the line, first on a day's show.
Despite significant advancements in gender equality, women still represent only 25% of the STEM workforce globally, and that's according to UNESCO data.
From deeply ingrained stereotypes to a lack of role models and mentors, this under-representation raises important questions.
How can we break down these barriers and foster a more inclusive environment in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics?
Join us as we examine the root causes and discuss strategies to overcome the systematic challenges facing women in STEM.
So, Lee, let's go to you first.
Give us an update on what is the status quo for women working in the STEM fields.
Sure. I think when we look at this phenomenon, we can refer to the UNESCO data, as you mentioned.
Globally, women constitute only 35% of higher education STEM graduates, and this figure has stagnated over the past decade.
And especially in occupations related to science, engineering, information, and communication technology, women make up less than 25%.
And it is actually a global issue because when you look at the data from MIT, the figure of women in STEM workforce stands at 24% in the US, and 17% in the European Union, 16% in Japan, and 14% in India.
The same situation here in China, the number of women in this field is still lagging behind, according to Yang Ke-ah, an associate professor at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
Over the past decade or so, the gender ratio of pupils enrolled at universities in China has skewed increasingly toward women.
However, female pupils are concentrated in views, such as humanity in social sciences.
A fact that has led to their continued gender representation or miss representation in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.
And I think it has been discussed before, and it's not really a single issue here happening in China, and as we mentioned, it's really happening all around the world.
And I think we can really talk about more specific examples, and also the representation of female roles, especially female scientist roles in media that could also be a very interesting topic to talk about.
Indeed, and also the countries that used as examples here, they're relatively wealthy.
Yes. And I would assume that in a lot of other countries, the figures for women in STEM subjects are actually even lower.
So, Steve, what is your observation on this subject?
And it's not necessarily new, but it sort of calls our attention from time to time.
I think you're right. I think it's an issue that's been around for a very long time, and there's multiple reasons for it.
And I think it's something that people don't have in the forefront of their mind on a daily basis.
It pops up, the lack of representation in those fields pops up in the media from time to time.
But I think the more we talk about it, the more attention we bring to it, then the more the issue will be something that can be more easily tackled, I think.
And I'm to blame for that as well.
This is something that I don't think about too much either.
So I was really excited to kind of look up this research and see what I could find.
I'm here in Korea at the moment, so I looked up the latest statistics from WISET.
WISET's just an annual report that they put it out in October of 2022.
And it was a report on the representation of women and men in STEM.
And according to that report from here in Korea, women accounted for only 21.17% of total students majoring in engineering and science and higher education.
Now, if you compare that number, and I think you might find this from different countries around the world, if you compare that number to 2011, well, that number stood at 16.9%.
So it's a larger number.
The figures are growing, but it still doesn't mean that the representation is where it should be.
One of the problems here in Korea, and this is kind of another issue that has trickled its way into a lack of representation in STEM fields is the declining birth rate, the declining population numbers that will happen here in the country.
And what I mean by that is you don't have enough young students filling up university classrooms as it is.
And then when you double that with the fact that there's an underrepresentation of female students studying these STEM-related fields, these STEM-related classes, then it's hard to just get the numbers anyway.
But they do do things here in Korea.
The Ministry of Science and Technology, they have a form.
I believe that's done on a yearly basis.
I saw another story from January where in Seoul, one of the international schools invited representatives, female representatives from STEM industries to come and talk to the young students to kind of show them that this is a field that is available for them.
This is a field that they can get involved with and they shouldn't shy away from it.
Yes, indeed. There are many facets of this issue that we can go in deeper.
And while it's widely argued that we should strive for gender inclusivity in society, which benefits everyone, but not everyone necessarily agrees, especially some men, if we adhere to traditional binary gender definitions, nonetheless, having more women in STEM is essential for a few reasons that go beyond political correctness.
Could you just tell me, or let's just get into this, why do we need more women in STEM?
Yeah, I think it's important that everyone is represented.
And I think that we need women in STEM because women are just as capable of being in STEM.
You know, for a long time in many different countries around the world, women have historically been kind of following jobs that have been defined by their gender.
And that's just so, in my opinion, it's just so archaic to think in those ways.
Traditionally, these STEM jobs have been male-dominated.
And I think that that sends a message to young women, young students, that, oh, well, if this is a man's job, if this is a man's industry, if you're going to have a hard time making your way in this field, well, then this is just something that you shouldn't even bother with.
And I think that sends the wrong message to young women, that your options are limited when you're a young person, no, you can't do this because this is just for men.
That's ridiculous. It's archaic.
And it shouldn't be taught like that.
So that's why I keep saying that word, representation.
And I'm talking about representation in pop culture, dramas and TV shows that show women in these types of jobs and succeeding in these types of fields.
I'm talking about representation in real life.
For example, Yisuyun, she's an astronaut, and she's also a biotechnologist.
And she was the first Korean to fly in space.
Now, that was a long time ago.
I think it was back in 2006 when that happened.
But having these types of people in the media showing young people that they can do whatever they want to with their lives, I think that's a really important thing.
Yeah. And that reminds me of Wang Yatping, she's the Chinese female Taikunat who made it to space.
And she's a mom. And she did all these kind of female things as well in space.
And actually, it triggered a little bit of a discussion, because some people were like, so a female Taikunat wears makeup.
Is that reinforcing certain types of traits that we associate with women?
But also, she's a mom. She puts up a picture that her daughter drew for her.
And it's all very sweet.
And I think all of that is inspiring.
And well, it generates some new thoughts about how to, you know, come about this issue of gender in so many occupations.
Exactly. I very want to echo with what Steve has previously mentioned about the absence of female scientists in media.
I mean, either movies or dramas.
I know people are arguing that saying that, you know, young girls, they are not really having enough female role models in science or STEM field.
So which leads to the fact that women are becoming so invisible in the sector.
But I think the more important thing is that we don't really have a appropriate or a right or enough representation of female in this field.
We are not really lack of these female role models.
It is just a, they are simply overlooked when it comes to being presented in media.
I think one example here I want to give is the blockbuster movie, Openheimer.
It's such a, I mean, hit movie.
It's such a successful movie, which is so welcomed.
And it's really, you know, focuses on the story of junior Robert, Openheimer and also the development of the atomic bomb during the Manhattan project.
But the movie has also been criticized for its lack of emphasis on the contributions of female scientists involved in the project.
I mean, there are people saying that, well, it's just a movie centered on Openheimer's own story.
But the truth is that the way the movie depicts and presents the whole story, I mean, presents the home Manhattan project.
Simply overlooks the significant roles played by women because the truth is that according to Washington Post, there were 640 women working at Los Alamos Laboratory.
That's about 11% of the workforce, not counting other Manhattan project sites elsewhere.
And many of this women, you know, filled, of course, administrative roles, but nearly half of them were scientists.
And a very specific example here is that the Chinese American nuclear physics, named Wu Jianxiong, she's also known as the first lady of physics, Queen of Nuclear Research, and even the Chinese Madame Curie.
And she's also known as always wearing Chi-Pao.
And she actually made important contribution to this Manhattan project and made history.
Her work was so critical for the production of the phisomotorium needed for the bomb.
However, her contributions are not really highlighted in the film.
So this is just one example of how I think female scientists and female researchers are somehow misrepresented in the whole media sector, movie or TV or dramas or entertainment shows.
But the good news is that I think we're paying more attention to this topic.
And as today we're talking about this topic.
And of course, the story of female scientists are being reported more than ever.
I think that's also a very good sign for those young girls who are interested in passionate about science and other engineering or STEM subjects.
I think representation in media is just one thing, but a deeper problem is that they're not being represented in their respective fields anyway.
And that phenomenon could be called the Matilda effect.
Yes. Well, this is the phenomenon where the contributions of women scientists are overlooked or attributed to their male colleagues.
And a perfect example is the British chemist, Rosland Franklin, who's groundbreaking x-ray diffraction images of DNA, especially the famous Photo 51 provided critical evidence and data that enabled Watson and Crick to determine the double helix structure.
However, her work was used by them without her knowledge or consent.
And it only took nearly 50 years after her death in 1958 for Franklin's critical role in the DNA structured discovery to be fully recognized and appreciated.
And that's just one typical example.
So when we look at today's situation, there are so many reasons why it's important to have females in the STEM subjects.
Why? Aside from what you guys have said earlier, I believe that it will significantly improve research and development.
And gender diversity and research teams can enhance the quality and scope of research.
Different perspectives can lead to more thorough and innovative approaches, improving outcomes in scientific and technological advancements.
And especially in the fields of, let's say, products and services when you're facing the consumers who are half of the population who are women, I think it's absolutely ridiculous a lot of the times.
Well, thankfully this is changing that in the design team, there's no women.
And then therefore, how could you understand about half of your user's population or whatnot?
So we've seen that the development of let's say safety features in ride sharing apps such as Uber and Lyft has benefited from female engineers input.
And we've talked about on this show previously about some of the car models here in China.
I mean the actual cars, not people who push these cars in their market campaigns have females in their heading their design teams to make these car features that are more conducive to female use thanks to the fact that there's a rise in female motorists in this country.
And aside from all of those things, what do you see as maybe the biggest hurdles do women face in getting into stem fields?
Looking at the, and hearing you guys talk about the statistics from other parts of the world, we see that it's kind of a global issue, isn't it?
And I'm Canadian and I was looking up some information from Canada about that and the United States as well.
The numbers of course are growing, but the obstacles are still there.
And I think according to a lot of industry experts, they think that stem needs a kind of a rebranding about what people think it is, right?
And this requires kind of a buy-in if you will from leaders in the field.
And I think that the top needs to serve as role models for the future generations.
So what, you know, about the belief of what a STEM career is and who is best suited for these roles, I think it needs to change.
It's kind of an intimidating thing, isn't it?
I mean, even the word a STEM job, many people might not even know what that means, right?
And you include the terms, you know, science, engineering, and immediately that's off-putting to a lot of people.
So perhaps a rebranding of what it actually means to get involved in STEM studies.
And then realize that these fields are not just limited to being biotechnicians, mechanical engineers.
No, there's plenty of more jobs out there that are related.
It's beyond just science and technology.
And I think perhaps if there's a rebranding of the image, it might attract more young people to the jobs.
And then when you get, if you get more young women involved, then that's going to help break down the barriers.
Yes, it's still a male dominated industry.
There's no question about that.
But that's why there needs to be more young women involved getting their careers in this field.
And with that, then I think you'll have the gender barriers being broken down further.
Yes, that's a really good point.
Also, can you just add one thing?
Why this is important? It is folks.
Anybody who's been following the news, you've heard of AI, you've heard of all the bruhaha that's surrounding chips.
And all of this technology is the future.
And don't you want a slice of the pie?
We're talking about the future for women to get involved.
This is the area where growth, innovation, and more dough to bring back home is involved.
And it's so important to get women involved because if you're not jumping on that ship, you're missing out big time.
So I think for gender equality, for better personal growth and wealth growth, and so on, girls, we need to wake up to this.
And we need to come up with solutions to get women involved before we're left behind.
If not, we're already so to a certain extent.
I gave that example of women in the field coming to a high school to give a talk to young students.
And I think they need to do more of that.
In fact, perhaps not even high school.
Perhaps middle school.
They did a survey and they found that 78% of STEM college students say that they decided to study it in high school.
They made their decision there.
21% decided to pursue it in middle school or even sooner than that.
And the interest from young people, lessons with age 11 to 14 year olds are 18% more likely than students age 15 to 17 to consider math as a favorite subject.
You've got to get in there early and show these young people that there are cool jobs available for boys and girls.
It's 2024 for goodness sake.
There's no reason to say that subjects or fields should be limited to one or another.
Getting in there, showing these students, bring your dad or your mom or your caretaker to work day or to school day and show them like, hey, this is a really cool job.
This is what I do. And generate that interest from a young age because if it's not generated, those statistics that I just showed, well, that would suggest that if it's not, if that interest isn't generated at a young age, that interest might never come.
I think in essence, we are talking about defying the traditional gender stereotypes here because I think throughout like early education and graduate education and even to early career, women has been, and also boys, girls and boys have been told that females are less capable of performing in STEM fields yet their male counterparts are better at it.
I think somehow it's not only a barrier that women need to overcome, but also for men as well because I personally know really talented female who is capable in the neuroscience field and also like very talented male who are really good at literature or arts field.
I think in essence, we are talking about gender should not really be a single criteria for distributing or giving opportunities to people based on simply whether they are boy or their girl is simply like a socially constructed norm, which could not really be a very easy and simple criteria here.
I think of course we are talking about encouraged girls to pursue their dream if they are interested in STEM fields, but meantime I think we are also talking about making people either boys or girls realize that they can really follow their dreams and pursue their interest no matter whether not only based on their gender.
We need more modern examples as well, you know, if Marie Curie, well she was born in the 1800s and if that's one of the more modern examples we have of a woman's contributions to science, then the only picture you can get of her is in black and white.
We need more modern examples for young women I think.
Yes, and I will provide you with a quick example right here and I only saw this a couple of months ago and it was I couldn't help but stop my feet and clap my hands when I saw this on the internet.
So Mira Murati, she's the chief executive officer at OpenAI since 2018 and she's been given presentations and receiving interviews by Trevinoa and so on lately and she's the true inspiration to women everywhere as a trailblazer in artificial intelligence.
She's shattered stereotypes and proven that women can excel in even the most male dominated industries and she's born in the US in 1988.
So she's only like 35 this year, 36 this year of Albanian descent and her remarkable contributions to the field includes creating chat GPT3 and Dolly and she's proven to be one of the rising stars in her field.
Not only being a brilliant engineer but also capable in assembling a team and being the team leader and not a big fat bully and here's one thing.
Sometimes people attribute certain so-called female traits as kind of negative oh she's too soft she's this or that but actually the flip side of the coin is well if she brings in these so-called female qualities to her work she could be more understanding she could have more empathy as such and so I don't think there's a straight like right or wrong thing when it's just how we sort of attach certain kind of things.
So I think it's a very important thing to do is to make sure that we have a very important and important role in the world and to make sure that we have a very important role in the world.
So there are these living examples and I don't think it's like we don't see them now but it's more like how do we try to fix the existing systematic problems to make it maybe a little bit smoother for those women who are obviously late comers to this but can bring such incredible contribution to it.
It's just you might not have seen it just yet.
You make a good point there you know you talked about perhaps the bottom up approach of having women from the field go into school and talk to students but there needs to be a top down approach as well where female researchers need to make the same amount of money they need to be given the same benefits as their male co-workers and until that happens well then you might it might not even be fair to ask with them.
To ask women to be interested in this thing where you don't get treated as equally as men do but do it anyway well who's going to say yes to that right so it needs I guess you know with a little further thought here yeah changes need to be made at the top as well don't they.
Yeah but also I wonder if the world will open its doors for women in the sense that maybe sometimes for the first generation of trailblazers we got to just kick that door open even if all things aren't all you know nicely made up put on a velvet pillow and presented to your hands and yeah this is definitely something that requires you know so many different parties to get involved to make it.
