Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
Podcasts. I love them, you love them, and these days, everyone is loving them.
The podcast market in China is booming not only here in the country, but internationally as well.
Today, we'll dig into some numbers and find out exactly how well the market is doing and find out why and how people love to enjoy their favorite shows.
After that, companies around the world, they're apparently having a hard time attracting and retaining Gen Z talent.
As a result, some businesses are now starting to offer very special job perks to attract and retain said employees.
Oh my, wait until you hear what some of these benefits are.
I'll tell you one thing for sure.
Many people think they are ridiculous.
Coming to you live from Beijing, this is Roundtable.
Lai Ming is here. Yeah, thinking that some of the benefits that the companies are ruling out are ridiculous.
Yohong Lin is here.
Hello, everybody. Great to be here.
I'm Steve Hatherly, and we thank you very much for being with us today.
First, on today's show.
In recent years, with the diversified development of internet media podcasts, including of course the likes of Roundtable, they've been gaining in popularity.
Here in China, as I mentioned a moment ago, the market is booming.
According to industry experts, the number of Chinese language podcast programs in 2023 increased sixfold compared to three years prior.
That is the definition of success.
Once considered, a niche podcasts are gradually becoming mainstream.
So what exactly is it about podcasts that has everyone's ears ringing with excitement?
What a great topic for us to explore, considering what we do for a living and what we're doing right now as a matter of fact.
Who wants to kick it off today?
Lai Ming, bring us up to speed if you could.
Yeah, sure. Let me begin with the personal observation.
10 to 20 years ago, when you walked down the street and see a guy wearing a headphone and walking towards you and not paying you any attention, you would assume that he's maybe listening to Mariah Carey, McDonald, Lady Gaga or something.
That was the impression you used to have about people wearing headphones in the street.
But now it's different.
When somebody walks down the street and facing towards me, I'm not sure whether they're listening to music or podcasts.
You know, there was a time when people didn't even know what a podcast was, right?
Radio has been around for decades and decades and decades and decades.
But back in 2006, say, the percentage of people who knew what a podcast was, the fact that they existed was probably somewhere around 20%.
These days, those numbers are completely different.
And even for me, there was a time when I knew that podcasts existed.
I knew there was a market.
I knew it was an industry, but I think it was because I was working in radio at the time.
My friends kept saying, oh, you have to check out this podcast or you have to check out that podcast.
I was a little late to the podcast game, but once I discovered it, I fell in love immediately.
And then here we are today.
Yes. And here are actually some more facts and figures that we can provide.
For example, data released by Himalayan in January of this year shows that the platform's Chinese language podcast audience has exceeded 220 million.
And also at the same time, we see that according to LiQi app, in 2024, the number of podcast creators on their platform increased by 30%.
Content repurchase rates for individual creators reached 80 % and user interaction rates rose by over 20%.
And that's what we love to see, right?
The user interaction.
Yeah. And this is actually something quite interesting because I'm not really sure whether or not our listeners are familiar with the situation here in China when it comes to audio content because podcast is something we all in the studio love and actually are doing.
Yet there are a lot of different types of audio product in China.
Besides music, LiQi has just mentioned, we also have audio books, which are very, very popular, especially novels that now not only human beings are reading those novels, artificial intelligence are in the game generating audio books by seconds.
So you can find your favorite novel and start listening to it.
Are you an audio book lover?
I actually am. Yeah, I mean, it's true these days because you can just, it's so much easier to just plug in your headphones.
Precisely. It is to carry a book in your bag.
Yes. And here in China, we also have another type of audio content that is kind of like online lecture in the form of this kind of shows that you can listen to.
You got to have someone who is a industry expert teaching you certain techniques, certain skills, knowledge, that is another type.
Like an open course or something.
An open course, but in the form of an audio product.
Sure. And then we have podcasts.
But podcasts is gaining popularity, I think partly because it's getting a little bit of entertainment like the audio book or audio novel, a little bit of knowledge sharing, like the online courses we talk about, and a little bit of company you on your way to work while you're doing your house tours
like music. So a little bit of everything.
Yeah, all rolled into one.
Infotainment, I think is the term that they use.
So yeah, booming here in China.
So who is listening?
Can we have a look at some of the demographics?
Or according to the China Net Casting Services Association, podcast listeners are primarily concentrated in tier one cities here in China, with that means Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen, and some other economically developed cities with working professionals and students making up the majority without
going into a big definition of what a tier one city is.
Generally speaking, those are the biggest cities.
When you're talking about population upwards of 10 million.
Got it. And at the same time, we get to see that podcasts have become an integral part of our daily life as well.
According to data, actually, we see that to the percentage of people listening to podcasts while waking up has risen from 27 % to 38%, while the percentage during driving increased from 29 % to 34%.
And during exercising, when you're hitting the gym, it rose from 35 % to 50%.
Interesting. I think some of those figures are contributed to the switch from maybe listening to music to listening to podcasts.
I think there's a term for that as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
You can find it online, but I think it's called temptation bundling.
And that's where you combine an activity that you don't like with an activity that you do like.
So for example, you meant I bring this up because you mentioned the people listening at the gym.
Yeah. So if you're on the treadmill and you hate that, which a lot of people do, even though they listening to your favorite show round table, that is a good way to pass the time when you're struggling on the treadmill.
Here's some more statistics for you.
So there was a report from tech media outlet 36KR and they got feedback from over 2000 podcast listeners.
And the feedback indicated that among listeners aged 18 to 40 over 80 % hold a bachelor's degree or higher, more than 70 % listen to podcasts for over half an hour daily.
It's obvious then, a half an hour a day might not sound like a lot of time, but that's a pretty significant investment considering how people are busy in their daily schedules.
Well, it's not a lot of time if you're commuting, living in a bigger metropolitan city is likely that you spend at least half an hour commuting from your home to your workplace.
We learned on round table, I believe that the average commute time in Beijing is somewhere around 40 minutes.
So yeah, you're right then in that point 30 minutes is.
So you're not even taking extra time out of your life or your work.
Very busy day. It's true.
We as well here from round table, we put a survey out on Weibo, which is a social media site here in China if you're not familiar.
And we asked people about their podcast listening habits.
So what did people have to say there?
Well, they said that actually when it comes to listening to round table as well as some of their favorite podcast shows, they would choose different ways to listen to it.
For example, over 54 % said that they would skip around and listen to specific parts that they like.
Nearly 30 %? Yes, nearly 30 % said they play it in the background for company.
Oh, to keep them company?
To keep them company, like what we said, maybe they're exercising, doing the dishes, doing the dishes and everything.
Yeah, so not exactly paying attention to every single word, but just putting it on while they wash the dishes or something like that.
Yes, and funny enough, we also have someone listening to it from the very starting point to the finish line and just pay full attention, absorbing the knowledge and enjoying our company.
And some would even listen to it repeatedly as a way to remember the talking points, remember some material so that when they chat with their friends, it can be used as little anecdotes.
And we love those people even more.
We do. I found another kind of interesting tidbit.
This is from business .ugov.
And they were asking people about their preferences in terms of visual podcasts versus audio podcast.
And I know that we've gotten a message or two from listeners asking if, you know, oh, is it possible maybe Roundtable someday can go visual?
And I thought this was kind of interesting.
So 33 % said that they prefer their podcasts through just audio versions only.
But very closely behind, 25 % of people said that they prefer visual podcasts to audio.
For me personally, I like both.
I enjoy listening through my headphones without having to look at anything on a screen.
But I also do enjoy there are certain shows that I listen to sports related shows where they're in a studio the cameras are on.
So so I like both. Yeah, me too.
And I don't think we're alone.
Actually, we see that internationally video podcasts are gaining traction with up to 33 % of U .S.
podcast listeners choosing watchable podcasts, according to data from Beck Linkle.
At the same time, we see, guess which media platform is the platform that is preferred for podcasts listening the top one?
Exactly. Right. That's a little surprising to me.
It is to me as well, because it's definitely watchable type of content.
And it's, it seems like people would choose both a little bit so that on YouTube, if they want to watch, they can.
It really depends on the platform on which people are getting in their podcasts.
If it's a YouTube people, if people are using a PC to access YouTube and listen to a podcast, then I guess they could accept some form of video content.
Whereas if you were somebody like me, who's listening via a specific podcast application, then I would turn on the application when I don't have the eyes readily available.
I mean, maybe I'm cycling, maybe I'm doing the dishes.
I do. I can't spare a moment to look at the screen.
Then I will prefer audio content.
But I have to say here in China, the situations are similar when it comes to favorite or preferred platform for listening to podcasts or watching a video or turning off the screen of the video and having the video played in the form of audio content, because I think most of the platforms I have been
using provide the function that you can turn off your screen and have it played and set a countdown alarm so that if one of your favorite episode is finished, it will immediately close off the app.
So it's easier and it's keeping people company.
More convenient. Speaking to your point about internationally, how popular podcasts are 546 million listeners around the world?
That's a lot of people.
That's an 8 % increase in listeners year on year.
And this is kind of cool to know as well.
This is from loopxdigital .com.
They state that there are more than 414 million podcasts globally.
Not listeners, podcasts, more than 414 million.
Yeah. 414 million different shows.
There's almost one podcast for every listener.
It's pretty impressive, I think.
And people are getting really creative.
Can I imagine the kind of podcast I have listened to a little bit and enjoy a little bit?
There are so many different very niche themed podcasts.
I'm not really sure if you're familiar with the Chinese classic Dream in the Renshin, Hong Lo Meng.
It's a classic novel.
Heard of it, read it, didn't enjoy it.
I'm not talking about you.
I'm talking about our dear listeners in over these countries.
Yet, I have been listening to over three different podcasts talking about the little details in the novel and explaining why it's so great.
It's like book reveal in the form of podcasts.
It's not the novel itself.
No. It's a group of people talking about the book.
And they would even pick specific little tiny little niche niche subjects like the kind of, let's say, pattern on clothes they can get, they can collect, they summarize within just this book and compare which pattern is inspired by maybe one of the famous, let's say, painting in a certain dynasty.
So it's a really niche subject and I enjoyed it so much.
Three podcasts on that.
Yes. I know. It does sound so boring on the surface.
No, on the surface it does.
It does sound boring, but that's not my point.
My point is that even though on the surface it seems like, oh, that doesn't sound like it's going to be fun.
But when you get the right people talking about the topics, then anything can be interesting to people.
Yes. And you have to find the target audience.
Yeah. By the same token, I would assume there are plenty of people up there looking for a podcast on how to crack the Blacksmith wukong.
Yes, that too. Then why do you think, I mean, we've seen evidence now, haven't we, looking at these statistics, but why do you think that podcasts have suddenly become so popular?
Because we're simply sick of it.
I remember in college, it was the period of time in my life where I enjoyed watching a lot of TV series.
That was before social media became really influential.
So all the time I had, I spent them all on watching TV series.
When you said sick of it, you mean sick of the visual.
Yeah. Yeah. Visual content.
And another reason I can think about was kind of interesting because I suddenly realized that the reason that I used to listening to music instead of listening to any kind of audio content with actual words and information was because my headset was not good enough when I was commuting.
When I was in a subway or on a bus, it's simply too loud and too noisy and I cannot actually listen to every word no matter who is saying it.
But listening to music was fine.
You just got the melody and the vibe and it'll cancel out the noise outside.
Yet with the development of technology, we have better headset.
We have noise reduction headset.
We get to listen to each and every word and all of a sudden content became more important to me.
And I started to listen to not only podcasts, but also audio books and stuff.
So I think that contributes to the popularity these days.
I think tech really plays a big part in this.
I mean, because 20 years ago, when I heard first heard about podcasts, I heard it from a friend of mine who was slightly vision impaired.
He couldn't see very clearly.
So he pays a lot of attention to protecting his eyesight, not getting his eyes exposed to a lot of visual content.
So what he did was he went to a particular website, very rarely known, among other people.
He would download the content like the BBC wealth service.
It was updated regularly.
And then there were a bunch of people making their own podcasts as well, reading books, essentially enasiating books, and then upload them to this particular platform.
So what he did was he had an Apple itouch and he had to download from the platform all the audio content and then use a cable to connect his itouch to the PC and then, you know, upload it to the itouch and then then he can plug his wired headphone or earphone.
Those are making a comeback, by the way.
We shouldn't speak poorly of the wired headphones.
But the ease of listening to a podcast has become so much more stressed, essentially.
I mean, the technology of recording hasn't evolved a lot.
And certainly there are companies like Zoom and then what's the other company?
Rode. They produce microphones and stuff.
Oh, the audio company.
This part of technology, I think they haven't evolved a lot tremendously.
But the technology associated with listening, the ease of listening has made it so much easier for people to listen.
And I think that really encouraged more listeners.
And I have to admit, and let's say give it to our competitors out there, because the creators of podcasts are doing a really good job.
We see more and more good creators and many of them have been digging in their original or previous industry or genre for a really long time.
They gain the experience, they collected, maybe not intentionally, the fun stories and even sometimes the gossip in the industry.
And they figure out a good way, a really good way to share those things with the targeted audience.
They're doing a really good job.
I wholeheartedly agree with you in that the quality of the content available is fantastic.
The production quality of the podcast fantastic and getting better these days.
And there really is something for everyone.
I was teasing you before, Honglin, when I said, oh, that sounds boring about book reviews, but there really is something for everyone out there.
I'm a big fan and please don't misunderstand because this is one of the most popular genres in the world.
I'm a huge fan of true crime.
Not because I want to be a criminal or something like that, it's just the stories and they have these expert storytellers on the show sometimes.
So there really, truly is a podcast for everyone out there.
I think too, and maybe we didn't touch on this just yet, the popularity of podcasts has to do with companionship.
You feel like you are friends with the people that you listen to on a daily basis and I think there's something to be said for that as well.
Yeah, about that, I feel a little conflicting opinions and really forming up because on the one hand, I look back to about 10, 20 years ago when podcasts really started to emerge.
That was the stage when only amateur people were getting in the game.
You could clearly tell that they didn't have any training in broadcasting or video.
Right, anybody can make a podcast.
Back then, I think the popularity of the podcast was largely based on somebody's personality.
They were fun people, they really knew fun things and they had fun ways to express them.
Then that was it. Listeners were willing to ignore some of the mistakes and errors and some unpleasant noises in the recording.
But now things have become more competitive.
We are talking about, like Newholing said earlier, jars of specific stories and very investigative in -depth look into a particular crime story.
So it's become more competitive.
I can't really make up my mind about whether that companionship is more about personality or about what people need when they feel that it's too quiet.
We could talk about that all day long.
We might have to save that for a different show because I could disagree with you for hours on that.
My feeling is that when it comes to companionship, not only because people do need some friends online that they have never seen, but they truly feel like these people understand them deeply and sharing the veils that they do not know how to express clearly.
That was the moment that you feel like you're clicking with the podcast maker.
But at the same time, it's not due to the lack of cooperative innovation or creation from the podcast creators.
Because of the development of internet and everything, they get to see the comment and maybe find out what are some major topics that their listeners would want them to talk about.
And they will make almost like customized shows for them.
And those kind of feedback and giving back to the listener group would make listeners feel like we are really friends.
You are listening to my demand as well.
Speaking of innovation and creation, where are we on AI in podcasting now?
Well, I'm not sure if the average listener understands, but I think we are professionals somewhat in this industry.
And we just come to our attention that there are AIs available that would help us turn essentially links to media reports into podcasts, like you feed the software with a few links of, for instance, several stories on podcasts and that software can generate a fun discussion about podcasts.
So that's the view from a business insider.
Actually, as a listener, I have another finding that is with the development of artificial intelligence.
Actually, it's helping us to find out the kind of podcasts that we enjoy more often.
For example, I was using a artificial intelligence tool called the BBGPT.
What it does is that it can absorb the information of video or audio and then find out the parts that they think or the AI think you would be enjoying.
Not only the kind of the syllabus of the show, the kind of talking points of the show, but also which part is funny, which part is considered counterintuitive, which part is considered the kind of sentences that you would think about that will impress you.
And that's like advanced analytics.
Exactly. So that level of, let's say summarizing analysis would help you figure out whether or not this episode is the episode for you.
Is that going too far, do you think?
If we go that far into advanced analytics to find out which words are effective and how, you know, the number of words in a sentence, how effective is that when you used 14 words in a sentence as opposed to six?
Are we losing the human side of podcasting if we're going that far?
I think it depends on how you use it.
For me, I use it to select the ones that I like, and then I'll start listening to it from beginning to the end.
But if, like you said, we use it in the way that we basically stop listening to the content and only watching or reading the analysis provided by AI, maybe that's too far.
Yeah. From a personal point of view, from a listener's point of view, maybe you don't need to care about any of that, but from a production point of view, when there's hundreds of millions of shows around the world and everything's competitive, then maybe those are exactly the things that we should be paying attention to.
Great discussion on podcasts.
