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Welcome.
To Feel Better, Live More.
Bite Size your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend.
Today's clip is from episode 364 of the podcast with co-authors of The Good Life Professors Robert Wardinger and Mark Schultz.
Robert and Mark are directors of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, an extraordinary research project that started all the way back in 1938 and has followed participants for more than eight decades.
In this clip, they explain why nurturing high-quality relationships may be one of the most powerful things we can do to support both our long-term health and our happiness.
You are both, I guess, guardians of one of the most important studies on human happiness.
I think there's so much that you've learned.
There's so much that we can all learn from your findings.
But I thought a really interesting place to start would be with something you've written about in your book that there are two major predictors of our happiness our health, maybe even our longevity.
And that's the frequency and the quality of our contact with other people.
Why are those two things so important?
Well, frequency has to do with this observation that when we don't keep current with each other, with the really important people in our lives, that perfectly good relationships can simply wither away from neglect.
And the quality has a lot to do with what actually is restorative and energizing about relationships, which is the sense of relationships being stress reducers, the sense of relationships being energizers, um affirmers of our identity.
So many different things that we get in a positive way from good quality relationships.
So it is, it's frequency and quality.
Yeah.
I think if you walk out on the street and you were to talk to people about their, let's say, their longevity right,
Their health, both now and into the future, what's important.
I think many people would immediately go to things like nutrition, physical activity sleep, for example.
Yet you guys are making the case that, sitting above them all, potentially the quality of our relationships.
Yeah, it's remarkable.
I mean, I think we were surprised when we started to find how important relationships were for our physical health.
And then when we started to look at other studies and it's the loneliness research that's maybe the most compelling, now that you see these incredible links with the amount of time that people spend on the earth, the amount of time that they live,
It's just extraordinary.
And that relationship is of a similar magnitude to the things that we commonly think about as serious health risks, like smoking and obesity.
So there's so many indications of how powerful relationships are.
I think we take them for granted.
And it's clear science is telling us that they're important.
You mentioned there relationships and physical health.
And I think that's where some people have to make a leap into the dark.
I get it.
Good relationships feel good.
We enjoy ourselves when we're in the company of people that we like, who mean something to us.
But how does that then impact our physical health?
Well, that's the interesting research question.
So we're always asking, if we see a connection between one thing and another, how does it work?
What's the mechanism?
And probably the best hypothesis that we have, for which we have the most evidence, is a hypothesis about stress that Good relationships help us regulate emotion, particularly negative emotion.
So stress is there all day long.
I mean, something upsetting happens to me and I can literally feel my body change, go into fight or flight mode.
And what we know is that when we have someone we can talk to, when I can go home and complain to my wife about my day, I can literally feel my body calm down.
And what we know is that loneliness and social isolation are stressors that we evolved to be social animals.
So if we are too alone, what we think happens is that we stay in a low level fight or flight mode.
The body doesn't return to equilibrium.
And that means higher levels of circulating stress hormones like cortisol, higher levels of chronic inflammation.
And those things can gradually break down multiple body systems, which is how you could get a connection between relationships and arthritis or between relationships and cardiovascular disease, because the stress hypothesis posits that these connections are with multiple body systems.
So if I think about relationships, so that's your pitch.
Relationships are front and center of what it means to live a happy, healthy and long life.
And, of course, we started off this conversation talking about those two major predictors that you write about in your book the frequency and the quality of our contact with other people.
So if we think about relationships, how can we break that down?
There's a relationship with myself.
And if we start to expand it out, there's a relationship maybe with a relationship with our friends, relationship with our work colleagues.
The list goes on and on.
Relationship with the baristas and the coffee shops, right?
So there's all these kind of circles that are getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
So if we're to take you guys at face value and say okay, relationships are important, which are the most important.
There's no which about it.
There's no most important about it.
They're all important.
What we do believe is that everybody needs one or two, what we call securely attached relationships.
That at one point in our study we asked our participants who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared.
And most people could list several people, but some people couldn't list anyone.
And a few of those people were married and they couldn't list anyone.
What we believe is that everybody whether you're shy or extroverted everybody needs at least one or two of what we call securely attached relationships, where you feel like someone will be there for me if I'm really in trouble.
Yeah.
So loneliness, significant problem in all Western countries and also non-Western countries as well.
So you know the rates are in the US somewhere between 20 and 40 percent of adults talk about being lonely.
And what that means, it's the opposite of what Bob is describing.
It's not having a sense that someone has your back or knows who you are.
Um, but people just don't care whether you exist or not.
So those are incredible rates.
If you think about 20 to 40 of the adult population says that there's no one that really knows who they are and can they could depend on.
So the word intimacy, the roots of the word intimacy about are being known, right?
So when we talk about physical intimacy or emotional intimacy, it's the same.
It's, we want to be known by somebody else.
And Very powerful experience for all of us.
It's simple, this idea that we want to be seen and heard and appreciated and understood.
So people can get that in all sorts of relationships.
And the other thing I want to say that's really critical, because I think this is another modern trend that we tend to invest a lot in our primary attachment, our primary relationship and intimate partnership.
And that's a lot to invest in one person, all the things that we can get out of relationships.
You know the ways in which ourself, in connection with others, we learn about who we are, the kinds of support that we need from other people, the kinds of fun that we can have with our mates.
That there are so many things that relationships give us that it makes sense that distributing that among ourselves not just one person, but a collection of people might have some benefits for us as well.
There's a romantic ideal in the culture now that didn't used to be there.
The romantic ideal is if my primary relationship is good, I don't need anybody else.
That's a fiction, a complete fiction.
Actually, Eli Finkel, one of our colleagues, has written a book called The All or Nothing Marriage, where he talks about this and about the idea that we, We imagine that the relationship isn't good if we need to go elsewhere for some of our fun, for some of our confiding, for whatever else we need.
And when, in fact, the truth is that we get many different things from that different kinds of relationships.
And we want that to be the case, ideally.
I think, partly because of this idea that we choose our friends, that friendships are particularly prone to distancing, that we sort of let our friendships wither.
We figure that they're going to work and we don't have to sort of lean in and and put energy into them.
So we talk in the book about this idea about social fitness, and social fitness applies to all of your relationships.
But we need to kind of exercise those relationship muscles to really connect with people, to to spend time, to a lot time that we can, you know, be together with the people that are important to us.
And friends are particularly vulnerable, i think, because of this idea that they're they're folks that we choose and oftentimes we make friends through the activities that we're doing in life, so they might be schoolmates from university, that we're no longer doing the same activities.
So we have to figure out ways to keep those relationships going.
Whereas relatives I think we often feel that connection around holiday times or family events that there's, there are ways in which they keep going.
But I think the kind of bigger issue here is that there's so many distractions today for our time that all of us spend a lot of time on screens these days, sometimes doing work, sometimes being distracted.
Could be by social media or traditional media.
But we have to really kind of harvest our time for the things that are most important for us.
And it's harder and harder to do that with these devices that pull us away from those things that are critical for us.
You know, and I think the whole thrust of the book really is that it's to be more intentional, right?
To allow us to take a look at something we mostly have on the periphery of our vision, as life is so busy, right.
And in fact- we asked our study participants at one point how has it affected your life to be part of the study?
And and some people said your questions are annoying or it hasn't had any effect, but most people said this was a really important part of my life because it got me to look at my life regularly.
Right, And I think that's what we're talking about.
What we're saying is if we look at our lives regularly, we'll see what we're doing.
And then we can decide if it's time to make some changes, to make some adjustments, rather than just letting the days and the weeks and the years slip by.
And if we think about what we know, just basic ideas about a secure attachment and a connection to other people, that when we look at infants, infants on the playground or toddlers on the playground, they'll social reference.
We call it.
They'll see kids out there.
They're a little nervous, so they look back at their parent.
Is it okay, right?
And a parent nods that an adult relationship can provide that same kind of support, right?
So for a strong relationship.
It could be a primary relationship or it could be a friendship that we have.
Bob says, you can do this, right?
That's encouragement like the kid on the playground.
Go out and do this.
It would be good for you to do that.
So good relationships are in some ways outward facing, right?
They allow us to have new experiences.
They're the that kind of support basis that gives us the confidence to try new things.
Bob, you want to write a book?
Let's write a book together.
That's what a relationship is about.
You know, and a hallmark of a securely attached relationship is where you feel the freedom to take risks because the other person will support it.
Yeah.
That's ultimately one of the challenges, isn't it?
That people find with relationships is They're messy, they're confusing, there's risk.
That's what makes them so beautiful and so nourishing, but at the same time, that can be why they can affect us so much when they're not going well.
So let's talk a little bit about risk.
Well, the other thing is that relationships are risky because we're each always changing.
We're each a work in progress every moment, right?
So it's not like you know exactly what you're gonna get the next time you talk to your partner or the next time you talk to your friend, because life is constantly changing.
And so then the question is, how do we keep up with each other?
How do we support each other in that process of continual evolving?
Yeah.
So-
There's two areas of practical tools I thought we could briefly cover.
One was in the, I think it's in chapter four in the section on social fitness.
You had these I think it was in that chapter these three tools generosity learning, new dance steps and radical curiosity.
I wonder if either of you would mind speaking to those three just briefly, to help people understand what they can then do.
So it turns out that being generous to others, being kind to others, and that could be telling them that you really appreciate them.
It could be doing something kind.
Doing that act of kindness benefits the giver in ways that are really quite amazing.
That givers experience a kind of sense of joy, a sense of connection.
There's lots of research on generosity and the ways in which it gives dividends back to the person.
So we want to do kind things because we think it's important for other people.
But an engaged person who does these acts of generosity also reaps benefits for themselves.
And those benefits are emotional and they're also physical.
Yeah.
I have a quote from the Dalai Lama about this.
He said, the wise, selfish person takes care of other people.
The wise, selfish person takes care of other people.
Because it comes back to you.
Yeah.
So practice generosity.
Yeah.
So what the second one was?
It was learning new dance steps.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And what did you mean by that?
Well, that has to do.
If we think about a relationship as a dance that we, without even deliberately trying, develop with another person, we find ways.
I say this, you say that.
I know that if I do this, you're likely to do that in response.
And that some of those dances steps involve stepping on each other's toes.
Some of those dance steps involve gliding smoothly around.
But what we know is that the relationships change over time.
Certainly, good Lord, a marriage or an intimate partnership is gonna change over time.
And so, my wife and I are about to celebrate our 37th anniversary.
Congratulations.
We have had to develop a lot of new dance steps over time.
And we're not the same people we were when we got together 37 years ago.
And that happens with friendships too.
So the idea is find ways to see where the other person is going and see how you can follow them, how you can compliment them in the new things they're doing, in the ways that they're changing, and hoping that they'll do the same with you.
And change it up.
A relationship that you've had for a long time, a marriage is a good example.
It can get stale.
It can get boring.
And I think the idea about new dance steps is also the idea of trying new things.
So I know Bob and his wife are taking voice lessons.
Both of them and they might be singing together on occasion.
Yeah, no, I love that.
Well, let's go to the third tool there, which I loved.
Radical curiosity, yeah.
So this is an idea again, that all people are interesting, that if we give our attention to trying to figure out what it is they're experiencing, what's important to them, what motivates them, what their experience of something that we're also doing might be, if it's different, that we can be radically curious.
It's an idea that we can take a kind of beginner's mind to any experience that we've had and say what have we been missing?
What's interesting here that I haven't realized before?
And, you know, Bob and I are both therapists.
We've been in this business for a long time.
We're radically curious about other people.
That's part of what nourishes us.
It's that privilege of getting to know people. but everyone can have a taste of that by being radically curious and it has benefits again for us we learn more about other people we appreciate those differences that they may have with us and people appreciate our interest that's another key part of it yeah curiosity is massive i think it's such an important value to adopt in life i i can't see any downsides to being curious personally well it's curiosity with a kind of lack of judgment right it's a curiosity gee it's so interesting Bob that you're interested in this opera and I have no interest in that opera you know what is that because I respect Bob I know he's not a crazy person you know what is it that's really important what is it that's important about that particular work of art that moves you right so we learn things by asking those questions and it's you know it's a privilege to be able to do that so the families or the individuals who are thriving in the study throughout life or later on in life, have you managed to identify any practices that seem to help?
I can think of two that I'll mention.
Bob may have others, but when we look this is more anecdotal.
But when we look at some of the folks in the study and the gifts that they bring to bear on their life and their families, part of that gift is is being interested and attentive.
So in the book we talk a lot about leo.
Demarco is one of the happiest people in the study and when leo was with you he listened to you.
His present, he was attentive.
His family felt that experience.
So i think that's one example that we see.
There's another one from some research that bob and i did years ago in which we were studying couples talking about an incident in which their partner had done something that upset or angered them.
So we were interested in when they get angry, when the heat is turned up in a relationship, And it turned out it was less important that your partner could figure out what was going on in your head than your perception that your partner was interested in what was going on in your head, right.
So we can give our partner the gift that we're interested in their experience.
Even if we're not so good at figuring it out always, I'm curious what was going on for you.
I care about you is really what we found.
Yeah, I remember reading that in the book, thinking that is powerful.
It's not about right or wrong.
It's just showing that person that you care.
You know, it's so important.
So if you were going to tell someone in one minute what are the key things that you have learned from this study about the human experience?
What would you say?
I would say take care of your body like you're going to need it for 100 years, and invest in relationships.
It's the best payoff you'll get throughout your life, love.
It was under 15 seconds.
That was brilliant.
And mark, how would you answer that same question?
I, i certainly would say similar things to bob, but i also would say there's a kind of basic humanity that we all have when we look hard enough at the at folks lives and really try and understand what their experience is.
There's a commonality we're human, we're all human, and that comes through when we look at these lives across time.
Yeah, and one of the things i i, I love about your book
I mean, it's a wonderful book.
I honestly can't imagine anyone who wouldn't get something from reading it.
It's because you're talking about the human experience.
We all have relationships.
We only exist in relation to other people, don't we?
I always love finishing off the conversation with practical tips for my audience, but perhaps for people listening who are realizing throughout this conversation that they have let certain relationships go.
They've maybe not prioritized them as much as they might have, what final words do you have for them?
When our original participants got to be about 80, we asked them to look back on their lives and we asked them what do you regret the most and what are you proudest of?
And One of the most frequent regrets was I didn't spend enough time with the people I care about.
And I spent too much time at work.
And so it's really.
It's a cliche for a reason when people say nobody on their deathbed ever wishes that they'd spent more time at the office.
And so your decision to say, look, this friend is really important to me.
I'm gonna make sure we get together. is one of those things you'll look back on and be glad you did.
Doing this research, I've realized that I have to start taking my own medicine.
And so...
I realized that, particularly once my kids were grown and out of the house and they weren't like pulling me away and saying dad, do this or drive me here, that I could just work all the time.
And so what I've had to do is be much more intentional about scheduling walks with people, scheduling dinners out.
Mark and I have a call every Friday noon and we talk yes, we talk about our writing and our research, but we also just talk about our lives.
And I find that if I'm not active, really active, every week in doing things with people who I want to keep current with, it'll wither away.
And so I'm doing more of that now than I ever did when I was younger.
I would say think of someone you've let go or someone you miss and would like to connect with again, and simply take out your phone and send them a little text or an email, or use the phone to use your voice to call them and simply say hi, I was just thinking of you and wanted to connect.
And you will be amazed at how often people will be thrilled to hear from you.
Yeah.
So I think another critical idea is it's never too late that those who feel like they just have, you know, had a hard lot in life, that they don't feel connected to others, that they wish their friendships could be better than they are.
It's never too late.
There are things that we can do starting now that can really have an impact on our lives.
We see it in our study.
We see it in many other studies.
Seize the moment.
You can change your life.
I love it.
Hope you enjoyed that bite-sized clip.
I hope you have a wonderful weekend.
And I'll be back next week with my long-form conversational Wednesday and the latest episode of Bite Science next Friday.
