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Welcome to feel better Live More Bite Size, your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend.
Today's clip is from episode 458 of the podcast with the neurosurgeon and author Dr.
Rahul Jandiel. Rahul's belief is that we sleep in order to dream, and at this clip we explore why we dream and what our sleeping brain reveals about our waking life.
You make the bold assertion that perhaps the reason we sleep is so that the brain can dream.
I do, yeah. Dreams are for everyone.
They are inside everyone.
They pop up in everyone.
Even if people say they don't dream, I don't have to tell you what a nightmare is.
I believe we sleep because the brain must dream.
The easiest way for me to say where I come to that conclusion is from the glimpses of transplant surgery, neuroscience, what happens when we go a day or two without sleeping.
There's something that builds up.
It's called sleep pressure.
We don't ask to sleep.
And if we try not to sleep after a day or two, sleep has to happen.
The second thing is dreaming is a robust electrical and metabolic activity that happens in the dreaming brain, which is liberated during sleep.
So when we think of our brains, the metabolic activity, the usage of glucose, the measurements of electricity are robust while we sleep.
Our bodies are sleeping, but our brains are not resting.
Our brains are not sleeping.
The dreaming brain and the waking brain, at times, the electrical activity can be so similar that it was called paradoxical sleep.
So the first thing we all have to accept as a measurement, not my opinion, is that the brain is not resting while we sleep.
The brain is doing something very fundamental because it forces us to sleep.
Different regions are dominant while we sleep.
The dreaming brain fires up the imagination network, if you will.
and logic is dampened, that's a measurement on fMRI.
The waking brain has more executive network function and we can get into that and less imagination network function.
So even though the electrical activity can be similar, if not identical, it's generated by very different ensembles of neurons in the dreaming brain and the waking brain.
So when you start to look at all of this process that sleep puts us down.
Sleep will take risk to sleep.
What happens when we sleep?
Our brains are on fire, right?
I put livers into other people.
We don't reconnect the nerves.
Sleep isn't really for the liver in some fundamental way.
Yes, there are some metabolic changes that happen during sleep and those benefit people, but the massive thing happening in the sleeping body is the brain is throbbing with glucose usage and metabolic activity and electrical activity.
So when I look at that, it makes me think that the process of sleep is for the benefit of dreaming.
Yeah, it's so powerful.
If we think about what happens in our body through an evolutionary lens, the fact that certain parts of our brain are more metabolically active when we sleep, and in particular, when we are dreaming, it's hard not to make the case that dreaming therefore must serve a very powerful function for us, right?
Right. If we go a day or two without sleep, when we are forced to sleep, something builds up inside us, dream pressure, sleep pressure, the dreaming starts to happen earlier in that sleep.
So it's almost like it's waiting to get out.
The vivid dreams and REM stages change when you go a day or two without sleep and then end up falling asleep.
So it almost feels like there's something building up that must occur, because when the brain goes without it a day or two, it jumps off earlier.
So those kind of conceptual things are my interpretations, but it's a measurement that the activity is robust while we sleep in our dreaming brains.
The executive network is the dominant network while we're awake.
It's focused on what's called task on.
It's looking for things to do outside.
It's using reason. It's using logic.
When we go from waking brain to dreaming brain, this is a measurement, the executive network is dampened.
So then if things are robust equally, then something must be heightened in the dreaming brain.
That's really where the magic in my mind and beauty of dreaming is, that what compensates for the dampened executive network is the limbic system, which is emotional networks, as well as the imagination network.
which other people call default mode network, but I call it the imagination network.
So you have a hyper -emotional, hyper -visual dreaming brain, and you have dampened logic in the dreaming brain.
You just used the word magic, and there is a mystery to dream that we all know.
You know, what do our dreams mean?
What was it that I dreamt about last night?
What does that actually mean?
Does it mean anything?
Can dreams help us predict the future?
All these kind of things that people will say.
cultures have written about and reported for years but I love the fact that as a neurosurgeon you're using the word magic when you're talking about the this mystery of dreaming.
Learning just a glimpse of how they may be working and the patterns that have had been there since antiquity that are now partially explicable you leave with a sense of man you leave more impressed.
Do you think dreams can help us deal with things like trauma and negative thoughts and chronic stress?
I would ask that people not ask dreams to be something we wouldn't want our waking thoughts to be, right?
Our waking thoughts are wild and all over the place, and sometimes they help us, and sometimes we ruminate, and not every waking thought is worth holding on to.
What is happening in dreaming?
First, some people have said that maybe the dreaming brain functions partly i don't think you can capture it with one thing but sort of as a nocturnal therapist as you get into the later parts of sleep you tend to have more of these vivid dreams and REM sleep and people tend to have more positive emotional
valence which is like just affect as they engage longer sleep that maybe clarity that comes with good sleep is because you've had vivid dreams at the tail end of it.
See, that's a hypothesis, but that's where they come up with the, maybe it serves as a nocturnal therapist.
But what I would say is yet some of my patients, they have PTSD nightmares.
So dreams are, they're a double -edged sword.
For some, they can help people cope.
So my answer is, can they help people with trauma is they can.
I think there's nocturnal processing going on if you pay attention to your dreams and the context of your dreams and if you try to remember your dreams you're more likely to remember your dreams but there is something happening there where i think that hyper emotional state leans therapeutic not for everybody
but in general it leans therapeutic yeah i think so too a lot of sleep researchers call REM sleep, the part of the sleep cycle, which we can consider emotional first aid, where we are processing the emotions of the day.
And I've heard some researchers say that it's when we take off the emotional, something's happened, let's say something negative.
We take off the emotional edges of it and lay it down in a much more rational, less emotional state during REM sleep.
And it's always been fascinating that to me.
One of the most important things for us as humans is to process what happens to us, right?
We have to deal with negativity all the time.
How do we do that? If REM sleep is where we take off those negative emotional edges, and REM sleep is also where a lot of these vivid dreams take place, then to me, it kind of makes sense yeah well perhaps dreaming is a way for some of us very good the process of dreaming may be your attempt to process
some of the events of your life um what i would say is and i mean this with the the utmost respect when i use words like likely or maybe it's to leave room it's not that i haven't if if there was a factor measurement that i had i trust me i would be bringing it but But when you say that, my mind goes,
likely. Massive life events, genre dreams, where your waking life experiences are so profound that you're also having them in some ways in your dreams, tend to have a comforting, tend, right?
We're just, we're giving an impression here.
They tend to have a positive emotional therapeutic role.
Yeah. And I think that's the dynamic nature of dreams.
So end of life for some of my patients that are at the end of their journey, they have dreams of reconciliation or these expansive dreams about their whole life, almost as if the dreams are their partner or shepherd in this complex process.
That's interesting.
So you do a lot of cancer surgery.
So a lot of your patients at the end of their lives, so with terminal conditions, are having dreams.
And are those dreams in your experience comforting for them?
Not always, but surprisingly so.
Okay, that's interesting.
Very interesting. So it seems to have back to your original point where others have made about it's a therapeutic, dreams are a therapist or they're helping us process emotion.
Maybe. But if there was any stage where it suggests that it's end of life for people I've seen with cancer, and they're reported on that, genre dreams, all of them, no.
Are they all coping well?
No. But a surprising number, the dreams are a source of comfort for them, a way to reflect back on their life.
So it's their partner.
the when we get to it dream interpretation is really about the hyper emotional dream as as something that's reminding you to reflect upon what's going on in your own life it can't mean the same thing for the same for different people dream symbols like a leaf can't be the same thing for many different
people a bridge can't be the same thing for many different people it has to be understood in the context of your own life and I think the the hyper emotional brain state, whatever emotions, experiences, it creates as part of the dreaming process is our portal to self -examination.
That's the biggest way to think of it.
It's your own brain's creation.
So it has to be understood in the context of your own life.
Of course, it's great to look at the science of what's happening in the brain, what's happening with electrical activity.
But so much of dreaming is internal that maybe science will never fully understand, or at least to me and given that we know from science how important our mind is how we think how we perceive things then maybe one of the powerful lessons is look dreams serve a role they're there for a reason right
pay attention to them particularly the big vivid ones I agree and if you can then start to assign meaning in a way that it helps you.
Perhaps the onus is on us to spend time with ourselves, journaling, thinking, writing down, whatever it might be, to come up with the meaning that works best for us.
Right. What I'm telling you is nobody else can tell you what this means.
It has to come from you.
Your brain conjured it.
It has to be interpreted by you.
You can't go to a dream dictionary and say that this means the same thing.
There are patterns, showing them naked in front of a podium, alarm not going off for an exam.
So that I try to conceptualize dreams.
Those are the types of dreams that require no interpretation.
They're obvious. Your waking brain anxiety and your dreaming brain anxiety are highly intertwined.
Those are common dreams.
So people being chased, people feeling the anxiety of being naked, people falling are convergent, like in evolution, convergent features of the human mind when there's waking anxiety.
And to me, that suggests that the dreaming process is not a glitch, that it goes through certain experiences that we have in common that have been reported from when people were on a horse and carriage all the way to an electric car.
And we're exploring the science to really get you to the point that this is a built -in process.
It's a built -in personalized process that your brain goes through every night.
If you have the opportunity to dream more through auto -suggestion, if you have the opportunity to remember more of your dreams in the morning by not quickly waking up and trying to remember your dreams, which people report they can, you have given yourself access to your own mind during a state of hyper
emotion that you don't have during the day.
that's a rare window to yourself that you can't get by turning outward and that dreaming should be a priority in our lives particularly when we fall asleep and when we wake up sleep entry and sleep exit and that this is afforded to us and it's free and it's possible not every time not for everyone but it
shouldn't be neglected it's quite the opposite of the glitch it's it's the rarest glimpse into your into yourself quite a few people have asked about whether you can train yourself to start remembering your dreams.
And a couple of times in this conversation, you mentioned the term auto -suggestion.
What is auto -suggestion?
Auto -suggestion is people are reporting consistently when they, before they go to bed, that they say that I will dream.
I will try to dream.
I will try to remember my dream.
They coach themselves before they enter this nightly dreaming process.
And on, when they wake up over time, they start to remember their dreams more and more so i do believe there is some science to support conceptually that auto suggestion before you fall asleep can incubate feed the dreaming process not reliably even but you have you got a shot at it christopher nolan talks
about inception edison mentioned it that just right when he's about to fall asleep the thoughts that he's having at that time are interesting and the thoughts he wants to dream about he would try to have them at that moment You want the waking brain to come on as slow as possible so you have the longest
window to hold on to the residue and thoughts of your dreaming brain.
Not grabbing your phone and letting the executive network kick in too rapidly that the residue of your dreams, people report remembering their dreams more.
And again, the meaning is subjective really, isn't it?
It's very hard. More than subjective, the meaning is personal.
But we've got the agency to put the meaning that we want onto these dreams, don't we?
and that is that that's the power of reflecting on your dreams yeah that the process itself is self -exploration right what is therapy but guided introspection well well dreams are your best therapist yeah i love that and what i would say is um just at a common sense level for me when i have a good idea during the day
it's not because i'm like on my fifth espresso and just trying to push through the problem it almost arrives to me and when i'm slightly distracted yeah right and exactly and it's hard for me to think that the that the extremely imaginative and liberated six seven hours i'm spending every night are in some
ways not contributing to my aha moments during the day they're not arriving from the heavens i think the dreaming process is is feeding my solutions and creativity during the day like there's all this task on thinking about the world during the day i mean these are conceptual conversations these are my
these are my opinions but task on during the day and then at night you know it's divergent thinking and they're both feeding each other the problems of my day the complex operations or the creative the idea generation now that i'm that is a part of my career i'm thinking about during the day Then I
go to bed and then my dreaming brain has a chance at it.
It's playing with it in whichever way, whichever degree.
And then the next day starts and my dream, my waking brain is again on those problems.
But there has been some contribution from the seven hours of sparking electricity and metabolic activity.
I can't prove to you through a test, but doesn't that make intuitive sense that the seven hours of dreaming are not separate, right?
It's my life being played out with the waking brain and dreaming brain.
And my waking life is feeding my dreaming brain and my dreaming life is feeding my waking brain.
It's 24 hours in my head.
This idea that the reason we sleep is so that our brain can dream.
It's really, really powerful.
And you hinted at something that happens at the end of life, which makes you even more convinced that dreaming is really, really powerful.
So perhaps it'd be a good one to close on.
Yeah. How the brain dies is powerful.
And it really has affected me because there's a measurement that shows something very dramatic.
So there are patients who are passing away and they have the sticker, tying it all together, right?
The stickers are on the heart.
You have an EKG read.
when you look at the monitor at the end the heart has now stopped and it's a flat line the brain electricity is still going so the first minute or two few minutes after cardiac death the brain electricity is not just going there's a massive explosion of activity similar to dreaming brain waves similar
to expansive memory brain waves that the first few minutes after our heart to stop eating where historically we've thought this is the time of death the brain is having its final moment maybe its best moment a massive release of neurotransmitters the brain is not going out in a whimper it's going on an explosion of activity
and that by itself shows us that we should be holding that loved one's hand longer and then for me starts to explain things like near -death experiences that in patients who have been brought back maybe this explains why they why they say they had memories of their whole life like a film strip play in their
mind that the brain is um a salvo of electrical and chemical activity is the way it says goodbye and to me that those brain waves look a bit like dreaming brain waves that maybe death maybe brain death in itself is our is the one last massive dream like i'm tingling all over my body that is And I'll
send you the references for that and look up the Guardian had an article about this.
This is a massive thing that's coming down the field.
Some nurses say, don't they, that they will continue speaking to patients after cardiac death so that they know they're not alone.
Then they've been right all along.
I think the door that that opens as to the purpose of our brain, the purpose of dreaming, what this electrical activity being measured in the brain, what it actually means is truly profound.
I think so. Thank you.
You've captured it well.
for me, it's also comforting as a cancer surgeon to occasionally start to share this story with my patients that not only is there a genius built in every night for us with the dreaming brain that keeps us adaptive and creative and adventurous and open -minded, that in your final moments, a dreamlike
robust activity will be there for you to comfort you and to celebrate the life you've lived hope you enjoyed that bite -sized clip do spread the love by sharing this episode with your friends and family and if you want more why not go back and listen to the original full conversation with my guest if you enjoyed
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