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From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend.
I'm Tanya Mosley.
Today, George Clooney on his new film, Jay Kelly, where he stars as a famous actor at a crossroads.
Also, Oscar-winning costume designer Paul Taswell.
He spent more than three decades shaping looks for the stage and screen, from the gritty revolutionaries of Hamilton to the vibrant world of West Side Story.
His journey to Wicked started from the moment he saw The Wizard of Oz and later The Wiz, which he says rocked his world.
It was everything.
To see that kind of disco iconography because I knew The Wizard of Oz then to see it told in my cultural language was life-changing.
And rock critic Ken Tucker has a roundup of some of this year's new Christmas songs.
That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
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This is Fresh Air Weekend.
I'm Tanya Mosley.
My first guest is George Clooney, Academy Award winner, director and producer, and one of Hollywood's most recognizable leading men.
His latest film, Jay Kelly, directed by Noah Baumbach, follows a world-famous actor who discovers that being a movie star is a lot easier than being an actual human being.
The character Jay Kelly has the fame part down, but the father-partner-friend part, not so much.
Jay's perfectly curated image unravels after his mentor dies and he decides to follow his daughter across Europe, a trip that forces him to face his regrets and some of his blind spots, including the frosty relationship he has with his children.
Clooney stars alongside Adam Sandler, who plays his manager, Lord Dern as his publicist and Billy Crudup as his old friend who never made it as an actor.
George Clooney's own body of work spans decades, from his breakout role as Dr Doug Ross on the NBC medical drama ER.
He's earned two Academy Awards in 2005 for Best Supporting Actor in Syriana and for Best Picture in 2012 as a co-producer for Argo.
And earlier this year, Clooney made his Broadway debut when he reprised the story of Good Night and Good Luck on stage.
George Clooney, welcome back to the show.
Thank you, Tanya.
It's been a while.
I'm glad to be back.
I know, and it's our first time talking.
You know this new film where you play this world-famous actor who is coming to grips with the fact that he has missed out on the things that actually matter.
There is this pivotal scene that really plants that seed early in the film that I want to play.
It's you, your character Jay, in his palatial home by the pool with his 18-year-old daughter Daisy, who is played by Grace Edwards, shortly before she goes on a trip to Europe with her friends.
And Daisy speaks first.
Let's listen.
I'm going to go meet Moses in Rio.
I love you.
Wait, aren't we having dinner tonight?
Mario's doing the tamales.
Did we say that?
All right.
Go on.
Be with your friends.
There'll be other dinners.
I wrapped this last one.
I start the Lewis Brothers movie right here on the lots.
I'll be around for the summer.
I'm going to Europe with Rio and Moses and some friends.
I told you that.
I thought that was in July.
No, it was always June.
I'm leaving on Saturday for Paris and we're making our way over to Tuscany.
Saturday?
I mean, that's Saturday.
That's... I mean, it's too soon.
I got two weeks off.
We won't have had time to hang out.
This is your last summer.
That's why I want to see my friends.
It would be so lonely here without you.
No, it won't.
You're never alone.
Really?
I think I'm always alone.
Thanks a lot.
You're welcome.
That was my guest George Clooney in the new movie, Jay Kelly, with actor Grace Edwards.
You know this particular part of the film to a certain extent.
I mean, almost every parent understands this moment.
Your children are going off to live their own lives.
They don't really want to hang out with you anymore.
It's really bittersweet.
But there's more to this dynamic because Jay has missed out on building that bond with his daughter.
And it's because of his career.
This movie is really asking us, when do you realize you've made the wrong tradeoffs?
And I'm really curious about what piqued your interest in exploring that question.
You know it's a funny thing because I never really think.
I never thought of it when I read the script as a story about an actor or a movie star.
It always read to me as something that sort of most people deal with in life, certainly if you have kids, which is that balance between work and your family.
And you know I look back at things.
When I was growing up and There was always my father missed some ball games that I did and some big events in high school in my life.
My parents both did.
And you know you could be bitter about it or you could, as you get older, look back and realize well, he was working.
He was putting food on the table.
And so there's always this balance that we're always trying to get right.
You know, and the balance is an interesting thing because clearly you actually have to work and clearly you need to make a living and there are opportunities that you have to follow.
And always you look back and think, well, I think I maybe missed something there.
And so we're all doing it.
We're all balancing it.
We're never getting it perfect.
Yeah.
There is this line that is kind of heartbreaking, at least for me as a working mom.
It's where Billy Crudup's character says to you we are only good parents when we make ourselves irrelevant.
And there are so many lines like that.
But how do you think about that as a parent, as someone who's had such a successful career?
You know?
Well, you know, it's a funny thing.
The last thing they're aware of is my success, you know, at all.
My son went to Halloween this year dressed as Batman, which is a character I played.
Famously the worst Batman in the history of the franchise.
And I literally said to him, you know, I was Batman.
And he was like, yeah, not really.
And he had no idea how right he really was.
You know, I think that if you're successful, you do make yourself irrelevant, and that's probably the way it's supposed to be right.
I was desperate, desperate when I was a young man to be my own name and make my own mark.
My father, who was successful in Cincinnati Ohio, in sort of a very small market in that tiny market, was well known.
And I didn't want to be Nick Clooney's son.
I wanted to be my own guy.
And everybody.
I think every kid at some point has to divorce themselves from that protective sheath of their parents.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the other things that was really fascinating to me about this movie in particular in touching on fame and really giving us a lens, is that the people like every celebrity, every star kind of, has people.
And sometimes the people, there are a lot of people that are behind them.
Sometimes they just have an entourage that's kind of a small one.
But something that your character, Jay Kelly, has done in his life is is kind of design a world where everyone around him says yes to just about everything.
And you have said that you have designed your life to be the opposite.
The reality is I have an assistant and I have a publicist and I have an agent.
I don't have a manager.
I don't have a business manager.
I don't.
You know.
But what I would say is, in fairness, some of those trappings, they're products of getting famous young, because when you're young everybody says well, you have to have a lawyer that takes five percent, and then you have to have a, a manager that takes 15 or 20, and then you have to have an agent that takes 10, and you have to have a publicist, and they go through all these list of things that you need to do and you do it.
Oh, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, of course, that's what I gotta do.
If you're 33 and you're famous, The arguments are well, now I need a publicist because I have something to publicize, so okay.
I don't need a manager because I have an agent.
I don't need a business manager because I'm pretty good at understanding my own business.
So you're in a different position when you're older.
And so you don't have to surround yourself with this coterie of people that hold everything up for you.
And I actually pride myself in being able to be scrappy and fix things along the way and take care of most things on my own.
The people around you, though.
I say that as my assistant just brought me a cup of coffee while we were talking, just so you know.
Like a scene right out of Jay Kelly.
Yeah, absolutely.
But I wonder you know you've been so intentional about having people around you that can also tell you the truth.
Have there been moments in your life where someone close to you has had to point out something about yourself that you couldn't see?
Oh, sure.
Tons of times.
I remember I was working on a movie and the movie wrapped early and I stayed around with the crew and, you know, drank and I came home.
I was drunk driving home, you know, which is never a good thing to do.
I wasn't drunk, drunk, but I'd had too much to drink.
And my buddy came over.
Two of my friends came over and sat down and said that can't ever happen again, dude.
You can't ever get in a car when you've had too much to drink.
And, you know, and of course they were right.
And but it was very helpful to you know, have people that, instead of like laughing about the fact that I'd had you four beers instead of two, and came home uh, and got home without getting you know, without getting in trouble for it, instead of thinking that was funny, they were like dude, that's not cool and and you shouldn't do that again.
And i and i appreciated that and i took that to heart, you know, but i have friends that you know.
My friends are always been very straightforward with me.
I'll do a project that you know that i'll think works, and they'll say yeah, i don't know about that one, and So I don't mind that.
It's important to have that in your life.
Yeah.
How did you come to understand that that was what you needed, that that was actually important for you?
And I guess it also says a lot about the company that you keep.
Well, I will say this.
I didn't do it because there was some great plan.
I did it because I had no interest in being married and having kids and I had an interest in working.
I was very excited with having a career.
I couldn't believe I was having one.
And I had all of these friends who had been my friends.
When you know, when you're a young actor and probably young anything you know that's when you tend to make all your friends, either out of college or just after, and you make a lot of good friends.
And then, as time goes on and you get a job and you get married, you tend to lose a lot of them because life gets in the way.
Well, I didn't lose them.
I worked very hard at making sure we had them because, probably selfishly, since I wasn't getting married and wasn't having kids, I was wanting to have this family, this sort of created family.
And I worked very hard at making sure that we all you know, had dinners together and spent time together and checked in with one another.
And there wasn't any great master plan, really.
It was just luck.
I got lucky that I met really wonderful people, who you know.
Grant Heslop, my partner at work, you know we've been partners for 40 years.
He loaned me 98 bucks to get headshots in 1982, right?
And, you know, we both stood on the stage together and won the Oscar together as producers of Argo.
So we've been through it.
There's this story that came out a few years ago that you gave your friends, people in your inner circle, money like a million dollars and you made kind of a performance out of it.
Did that really happen?
It's funny.
It was a few months before I went out on a date with a mall.
And I didn't, you know, like I said, I didn't have kids.
I wasn't married.
I had really no prospects of that idea.
I wasn't really thinking about it.
And I'd met with my accountant to do my will, you know.
And while I was doing my will, I said, so what happens when I get hit by a bus?
And he said, well, you have to list who you're going to leave it to.
And I had these 12 guys, 12 friends, who have been my friends since 19, all but two of them since 1982 and two of them since like 1989.
And we've all been very close.
And I was just going to leave the money to them.
And then I was sitting there with him and you know again, I don't have any money to leave to anyone else.
And I said, well, why are we waiting until I'm like, you know, old or they're old?
And why don't we just get on with it now?
And so I got $12 million in cash, which was, you know, a big chunk of the money I had.
I had it in cash.
I paid all the taxes on it.
So nobody had to pay any taxes.
And I put them in these Tumi suitcases.
And I told everybody that they had to come over to dinner.
It was a very special night.
And then I had a big map that I put up.
And those Tumi bags were sitting in front of them at this dinner table.
And I just said, so I don't get a job if I don't get to sleep on Tom's couch in Hollywood.
And I don't get this, unless I was in Westwood.
You know Giovanni, we met in Venice and I put pens in all these maps.
You know all these spots in the maps of where we were and what we did.
And I said and how do you thank the people that gave you a career and allowed you to have a career and have stood by you for so long?
And I said, you know, so.
And then I said, open the bags.
And I said, screw it.
I said, just give him a million bucks.
So it was a fun thing to do.
And I was very happy to do it.
And then, of course, I met Amal.
We got married.
And you're thinking, well, I just gave away a big chunk of money.
If you're just joining us, we're talking to George Clooney about his new film, Jay Kelly, where he plays a world-famous actor taking stock of his life and the people he's pushed away.
We'll continue our conversation after a short break.
I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
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J Kelly comes on the heels of your record-breaking Broadway run just this past spring in Good Night and Good Luck.
It's a production about Edward R Murrow's showdown with Senator McCarthy that was eventually broadcast live on CNN.
You made this film in 2005.
It was a cautionary tale about McCarthyism and attacks on the press.
In the film version, you played Fred Friendly, so that he was Murrow's producer.
And on Broadway, you actually got to play Murrow himself.
Did you come to understand anything new or more about Murrow being in the role and playing him night after night?
Not always.
You know I wrote it, so I had to understand as much as I could about those same spheres of influence that we're talking about.
You know, there are very few times that someone had the power to actually affect policy.
Someone in news, for instance.
When Walter Cronkite stepped out from behind the desk and said this war in Vietnam is unwinnable, it's a tie at best.
That's when President Johnson said if I've lost Cronkite, I've lost the country, and decided not to run for reelection.
When Murrow took on McCarthy, that was a moment when he was the most trusted man in America.
And he said the emperor has no clothes.
That actually changed public opinion.
And you know playing Murrow.
The thing that was exciting to me was in the play which it was very different.
The play
It was much more urgent and much more about what we're dealing with today.
And at the very end of the play.
As Murrow, I got to stand in front of an audience of 1600 people every night and look them all, each one, in the eye at the end and say what are you prepared to do?
And we would have violent reactions from the audience.
People would be crying and people would be yelling, resist!
And people would be standing up and cheering and screaming.
And it really felt like everybody in that room needed a place to wash their hands and face and remind themselves, not by my words but by Murrow's words, of who we are at our best, who we aspire to be, who we often fall short of, but who we also have accomplished.
We have been the people that defeated fascism and Nazism.
We did do that, and it wouldn't have happened without us.
At the exact same time, we were putting Asian Americans, Japanese Americans into camps.
We're a very complicated country which has huge goals and aspires to many of them and falls way short of many of them.
Those pronouncements that Murrow would make, I mean, they're very poetic, prophetic.
For instance, there's the one.
I simply cannot accept that there are on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.
That's one that I often think about.
Are there lines that you can recite from memory that are meaningful to to you, that you often think about?
Well, sure.
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.
We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law.
We will not walk in fear one of another.
We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine and remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who fear to write, to speak, to associate or to defend the causes that are, for the moment, unpopular.
We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom wherever it continues to exist in the world.
But we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
I think that's an important phrase.
When did you first learn that?
Was it for the writing of this, or had that been something that you had known for a while?
My father used to stand on a chair when he was...
I don't know how old, when I was seven, he would stand on a chair and he would recite that speech from Murrow.
My dad was a big fan of Murrow's and he would do that and he would do Shakespeare when he'd stand on a chair for us when we were little kids to entertain us.
That had to be then, I mean, such a full circle moment.
What has your father said about your adaptations?
Well, it was funny.
He wasn't well enough to come to the play, which was heartbreaking, quite honestly, because really it was written for him.
It was written for his standard and what he taught me and what he asked of me as a child and as an adult.
But we did it live so he could see it.
And it was an interesting thing because he was there with a bunch of family members and watching it live.
And at the end he stood up and he saluted the television, which was a pretty beautiful thing for me and for us and for our relationship.
He set the standard pretty high for me.
You know, you really laid out for us some of the moral complexities of life that your dad taught you and kind of to be sort of this stand-up man who stands for something.
And I was just curious when do you make the choice to speak out about the social and political causes that you support?
In general, when I've been able to be personally involved, when I've been able to know or have some personal insight.
But in general, it's when I feel like no one else is going to do it.
That's kind of the thing.
If someone else has got... a certain subject covered, then I don't really need to do it.
I don't need to be involved in everything.
You can't pick up every fight.
You lose all of your clout if you fight every fight.
You have to pick the ones that you know well, that you're well informed on and that you have some say, and you hope that that has at least some effect.
If it doesn't, at least you've participated.
Knowing that you knew something that you could share with the world.
Is that what made you decide to write the op-ed for The New York Times calling on President Biden to step aside in the presidential race back in 2024?
Because you wrote, Joe Biden is a hero.
He saved democracy in 2020.
We need him to do it again in 2024.
And it was an extraordinary public statement asking someone who you actually called a friend to withdraw.
And reflecting on your decision to write that op-ed and to speak so publicly about it at such an inflection point for our country.
Do you stand behind your decision to write it?
Because, you know, there's also just the narrative where a lot of people feel like well celebrities, what right do they have to speak about such things, to step into this arena?
And in this particular case, there were a lot of celebrities that stepped in to speak out about the presidential election.
Like, what are your thoughts on that?
Well, that's never not been the case, right?
I don't give up my freedom of speech because I have a Screen Actors Guild card.
I spoke up when no one was listening, when it was just somebody at the end of a bar, and I spoke up.
I was out protesting against apartheid in 1982 when no one gave a damn who I was.
I grew up in 1960s, man.
Suddenly, you know, you get well known and it's like, okay, now don't speak.
I love watching some knucklehead, usually famous person, saying you know shut up and dribble or you know any of those things.
And you go, you realize that what you're saying is a political statement, right?
And by the way, here's the point.
You get to say what you believe.
You get to stand by what you believe.
And everything people do with you is voluntary, right?
Meaning there are going to be people now that won't go see this movie.
Okay, fair enough.
That's the tradeoff I make.
And I can handle that.
I believe in standing up for what you believe in and saying, telling the truth.
The minute that I'm asked to just straight up lie, then I've lost.
George Clooney, this has been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much for your time.
Well, thank you so much and good luck.
I think your show is just amazing.
I'm so glad it's still running.
I cannot appreciate what you do more.
So thank you.
George Clooney's new film is J. Kelly.
It's that time of year when pop stars release holiday music, and rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to a lot of new releases.
He's got a roundup that includes Christmas songs from Brad Paisley, Mickey Guyton, Leon Bridges and Old Crow Medicine Show.
Let's start with country singer-guitarist Brad Paisley walking down the street looking at the faces, seeing just a few more smiles.
Storefront windows getting decorated no, it won't be long.
Now all the cafes making peppermint lattes.
You can make mine a double because it's been a grind, but i see christmas lights at the end of the tunnel and we're.
Brad Paisley is counting down the days until Christmas.
Are you?
Paisley, a superb country guitarist with a puckish sense of humor, has made what is easily the best new collection of Christmas music.
It's called Snow Globe Town.
Paisley knows how to layer a proper Christmas album.
It's got some lovely ballads infused with snow and sentiment.
It's got a couple of novelty tunes, such as one about a naughty elf on a shelf.
He covers traditional songs such as Santa Claus is Coming to Town and Christmas carols like Oh Holy Night.
My favorite new song on this album is this warm, pretty composition called Falling Just Like the Snow.
I am melting just like the ice on our boots by the door, And just like the fire, I feel warm, Cause when I look at you with your eyes, all aglow Girl, I'm falling just like the snow.
Another country vocalist, Mickey Guyton, has an album called Feels Like Christmas.
It's a cheerful bunch of songs.
You can hear Guyton smile as she sings them.
One standout is the song Sugar Cookie, which is arranged to sound like a sweet bit of Motown pop from decades past.
Sugar Cookie is a new song that arrives with built-in nostalgia.
Sugar Cookie It's been keeping me up all night.
I've been dying for The RB singer, Leon Bridges has released an enigmatic holiday track, a tune called A Merry Black Christmas.
It's a rueful variation on the Irving Berlin classic White Christmas.
Remember the line about a white Christmas just like the ones I used to know?
Here, it becomes a black Christmas just like the one I've never had before.
His gravelly croon lends a certain melancholy to the beauty that Leon Bridges summons up here.
A merry black Christmas, Just like the one I never had before, Like it down in the street With no shoes on your feet, And they're happy.
Oh, they're happy, can't you see?
I'm thinking oh, I'm thinking, Thinking of love.
A merry black Christmas.
We began with Brad Paisley counting the days until Christmas arrives.
We will end with Old Crow Medicine Show, thinking about the day after Christmas.
This jaunty Nashville-based string band has a clever original song called December 26th.
Well, another year has come and gone.
We sang the songs and drunk the nod.
The twinkle lights are staying on all day.
Fa la la.
The fridge is full of Christmas goose and needles dropping off the spruce.
The ornaments are getting loose and falling.
Fa la la.
It's time to throw away the tree, clear out the opening debris.
It's far too soon, don't you agree?
Hang on.
Fa la la.
The relatives pack up the car and follow back the evening star with heavy bags and heavy hearts, because it's the day after Christmas.
Fa la la.
And we got away the whole dang year For the holly and garland and elson shell, The sleigh and the bells and the pipe trees Smell the water, the sun To the fading sounds of reindeer.
Whether you're anxiously awaiting Christmas or already wishing the holidays would be over, here's a lot of music that lets you know you're not alone.
Rock critic Ken Tucker reviewed Christmas music from Brad Paisley, Mickey Guyton, Leon Bridges and The Old Crow Medicine Show.
Coming up, we hear from Oscar and Tony-winning costume designer Paul Taswell.
His latest project is Wicked for Good.
I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
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I'm Tanya Mosley.
In Wicked for Good, when Glinda descends from her bubble in iridescent, blue and lavender, or when Elphaba sweeps through the sky for the first time in a weathered trench, coat and trousers, their looks aren't just dazzling us.
They're an integral part of the story, telling us who these women have become and the choices they've made.
My guest today, costume designer Paul Taswell, is one of the visual architects of that world.
For more than 30 years, his designs across Broadway, television and film have shaped how we see stories, from the worn revolutionary textures of Hamilton to the saturated palette of West Side Story.
Taswell won the Academy Award last year for his work on Wicked, and during his acceptance speech he paused to acknowledge the significance of that moment.
I'm the first black man to receive the Costume Design Award for my work on Wicked.
I'm so proud of this.
Thank you, Mom and Emma, so much.
Thank you, everyone in the UK, for all of your beautiful work.
I could not have done this without you.
My Aussie and Muses, Cynthia and Ariana, I love you so much.
All the other cast.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for trusting me with bringing your characters to life.
This is everything.
Tazewell's work now continues in the next chapter of the Wicked universe, with Wicked for Good, which picks up where the first film left off.
Elphaba, played by Cynthia Erivo, is now on the run, branded as the Wicked Witch, while Glinda, played by Ariana Grande, rises as the face of a new Oz.
Paul Taswell grew up in Ohio, a kid who loved to perform and gradually found his way into costume design.
Since then, he's won two Tony Awards for Hamilton and Death Becomes Her.
And in addition to his Oscar win for Wicked, he's also earned an Emmy in 2016 for The Wiz Live.
And Paul Taswell, welcome to Fresh Air.
Thank you.
It's so good to be here, Tanya.
We're going to get into Wicked for Good, but I could hear you sort of chuckling when you were listening to your acceptance speech.
It's still like a surprise for you when you listen to it.
Oh, my God, completely.
It's just so out of body.
And that whole experience was so out of body.
I mean, although I trained to be a performer, that's not what I do.
So it's not what I kind of carry forward with me.
You know.
So it's always a surprise when I have to get up in front of millions of people and say something that's coherent.
And because I was so moved, I mean, that's one of the things that I was chuckling about.
I was like, oh, I forgot to say thank you to all the other cast.
I mean, it wasn't that I forgot.
I just, you know, just like listing all of them off.
And, you know, it's... it minimizes the impact that it's had on me creatively.
Just to say that it was life-changing, I think that it really has affected my life in great ways.
Well, one of the ways that it's affected your life is that you're now a name.
It's very few times, I mean, where we've been able to name people who set the worlds behind the movies.
We're often talking to the performers or we're talking to the directors or the producers.
But as a costume designer, especially for Wicked, I mean it's such an integral part of the storyline.
And right from the start of this second film, we're watching your work.
We're watching you.
These two women step into their new personas Glinda as the good witch, Elphaba as the wicked witch, and the costumes are really working to tell that story.
Elphaba's elaborate dress from the first film.
At the end it's now shredded into a tunic and Glinda is wearing this blue and lavender instead of that signature pink.
Walk me through what you were trying to communicate with those opening looks.
Mm-hmm.
I see my work as a costume designer to be one of a storyteller.
And I'm telling a silent story that reveals itself adjacent to the performances of the characters.
Throughout these two beautiful films, I was giving context to what their backstory was for each of our principal characters, Elphaba and Glinda, where they came from.
With Elphaba, we have been left at the very end of the first film Wicked, Part I, with defying gravity.
And she's in her very best dress, dressed to meet the wizard for the first time.
And she's also paired that with her pointed hat.
And when she jumps out of the window with the velvet cape that she's added on and her broom, we realize that she's completely self-empowered.
I mean, she has arrived and has taken hold of her own power.
So, to enter into the beginning of Wicked for Good, we get this sense that she has never really gone back to society.
She's stayed in exile.
And a way of expressing that was to keep her in the same dress.
But because she has been out there, you know she's advocating for animals, saving animals really, and taking down lines of guards.
That you know we see at the very beginning where they're all laying the yellow brick road.
She has become a huge force and, you know, kind of a superhero.
So I wanted to relay that with her silhouette. but also to show the weathering of her garment.
So it's the same cape that we saw at the end of Wicked Part One in Defying Gravity.
The lining has come out of it.
It's starting to fray, and it just adds to the texture of who she is.
The same with her coat, the sweeping coat that she's upcycled from a raincoat, but the idea that she has taken just a few things into the forest and then she's recreating herself as this heroic image, paired with the pants that we have and also
So, you know, in setting that up, I'm making choices about what is the silhouette going to be?
How does it potentially align or become nostalgic of the 1939 film and that Wicked Witch of the West?
So that we're always threading you know all of these ideas of the Wizard of Oz and Oz, you know just the Ozian sensibility all together and wrapping it up in a way that makes sense and says something more.
As I was saying, says something more about the characters as well.
How did you come to the decision to have Elphaba wear trousers?
Something happened just to my design brain when John M. Chu said that he was casting Cynthia Erivo.
And this is after looking at a number of different Elphabas, and I was actually privy to some of those audition tapes just to see where his mind was, but to then see that he was thinking of putting Cynthia in that role.
One, I had already worked with Cynthia in Harriet, and I knew her range.
I mean, I fully understood her connection to clothing, how she develops a character, but I knew that she would be able to go to a place that would use the agility of wearing trousers as a means of athletic expression and power.
The ability to move allowed for her to navigate the world in a way that was more expansive than being in a skirt and jacket all the time, which is how I set her up.
I mean, she enters into the world of Shiz dressed in black.
You know, and that was another part of the equation was why does she wear black?
And there were many conversations that Jon M Chu and I had the director you know around.
How do we define why she is wearing black?
And I made the decision that, well, she lost her mother very early in life.
She was in mourning, so she wore that color, you know, signifying mourning, and then to adopt that as a way to pull herself apart from the rest of the community which we see presented.
You know when she's a little girl and you know how the other children in the neighborhood make fun of her.
And that, holding on to that armoring that's created by wearing black, it felt real in a way, because you know, you think about high school students or young students who dress in black or in a very goth way to make themselves feel special or to, you know, create a separation from the rest of you know, those bullies that might be hurting them, you know, just to create some significance in their personality.
This is so fascinating what you're saying, because in that way the black stands out, because I would guess that black is one of the hardest colors to make visually interesting.
But up against this colorful world, I mean, it feels like that texture and that detail in her costumes also show up in the black.
Thank you for mentioning that.
I mean, that was, again, another element is that she's side by side with Glinda, Glinda. who is always dressed in pink or in light tones, and they are often very feminine in feminine fabrics, light, airy, elegant, beautiful, those things that are desirable, I made the decision that there had to be balance.
And then it just continues to expand.
You know, I was talking about how Cynthia was cast.
You know, it was the first time that a Black woman had ever been cast in that role, which is surprising because the whole point of the story is that she is being ostracized or vilified or that she's othered because of the color of her skin.
Now, it's a direct connection to the racial structure of even our country.
There are so many similarities in the emotional story for a person of color and how that relates to Elphaba.
Okay Paul, I want to go back to your childhood because the 1939 version of The Wizard of Oz with Judy Garland.
It's a tradition for many families to watch it.
And growing up, your family would watch it on Easter.
Absolutely.
Do you know why your family made it an Easter tradition to watch?
I think that that was when it actually played.
This was before there was VHS tapes.
As I have it in my memory, it was annually that you know, my three brothers, myself and my two parents would sit and we would experience, you know, The Wizard of Oz.
And it became very... you know, informative.
I mean, it was you know for me as a designer.
You know the idea of visual magic.
You know when you think about, most specifically, going from sepia tone in Dorothy's house to technicolor when she enters into Munchkinland.
I mean, that's one of the most magical transitions that I've, you know, that I can remember.
So you know I have that in my bank of imagery as I think about, you know, other projects that I'm designing.
There are other films as well.
I mean, if you think about Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, or you think about Mary Poppins or Cinderella, Disney.
I mean.
So at that time, all of those magical stories, all those movies were folded into our, you know, just our family culture, you know, and what we would watch for entertainment.
Your mother taught you to sew when you were around nine years old?
That's right.
What made you want to learn?
You know, I think that I was always transfixed by crafts and working with my hands and my mother.
You know, I was always, you know, right at her side, you know, as she would draw and paint, or early on in my life, she was making puppets and doing puppet shows with her sister.
And with my older cousins they would create these puppet shows for libraries in and around Akron, for the schools and for the church.
And so I was really fully connected and engaged with what they were doing and that kind of crafting.
And so, in some way, that fed into my desire to create, to work with my hands.
I think that creating clothing was just the next step.
You know, my mother had a Singer sewing machine and she would set it up and she would make costumes and clothing for us.
You know, my brothers and myself,
Also, she was making things for herself.
And then you know, it was just a skill that I wanted to have, so that I could start to create things for myself.
So I would make dashikis and different kinds of clothing, you know, shorts.
And, you know, it's just a way of, you know, it was an activity.
Okay, you have been living in the world of Oz for a really long time in various different ways.
We talked about The Wizard of Oz as a child.
And in high school, you designed costumes for your school's production of The Wiz.
That's right.
What do you remember about that experience and what drew you to design rather than to perform?
At that time, I had not let go of performance.
But, you know, in 1978, The Wiz came out as a film.
Yep, that's right.
The one with Diana Ross and Michael Jackson.
Nipsey Russell was in it.
And Richard Pryor.
And Lena Horne.
And that was hugely formative for me, visually.
To see black faces in this epic film, rendered in great style, and amazing music by Quincy Jones...
It blew my mind, you know, to see that kind of expression of disco iconography represented as the Emerald City world.
You know, because I knew The Wizard of Oz from 1939 but then to see it told in our you was, you know, life-changing.
It was like, oh, yeah, well, of course.
You know, this all works beautifully.
You know, or like the... I think they call them the Winkies in the film.
Those people in the factory that are working for Eveline, when they unzip out of their bodies and the skin falls away.
And then there are these beautiful dance theater, Harlem dancers.
And you see their brown skin and, you know, just, you know, that was, again, mind blowing.
It was magical.
Then because I went to a magnet school in Akron.
Part of that was that there was a performing arts program within that school.
And at that time, I wanted to be an actor, singer, dancer.
That was my hope and drive.
So at 16, my teacher, Arnold Thomas, he realized that I was very interested in costume design.
And he offered me the project of designing all the costumes for this production of The Wiz that they were going to do in the spring.
Now, I also auditioned for The Wiz as well, and I was given the role of the wizard or the wiz in that production as well.
So I was designing the costumes and also in the production at the same time.
Yeah um, but i, you know, i was in heaven, you know i, i loved creating these fantasy characters through my lens.
Now, it was greatly informed.
When i think about what i created, i was very much inspired by, or you know, you could say you know, copying the film, you know, but it was, you know, it transformed into what we could actually Manifest.
Thankfully my, you know my mother, my dad, my brothers, we all, you know, they all chipped in, you know, at the end,
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, much of that time I was creating them on my own.
Were you creating, like, designing and then sewing them and putting it all to everything?
Yeah, the only thing that I didn't sew was my white suit that my mother made for me as the whiz.
She made my white suit.
It was a double-breasted suit I love.
It was a sharkskin suit and a white cape with green lining.
Oh, my God.
You know, there was a gold lame pleated cape and dress that I designed for Glinda.
That was my continuing evolution of problem solving and the creation of worlds that I continue to fall in love with.
Paul Taswell, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.
Thank you so much.
Oh, so great to talk to you as well.
Thank you.
Paul Taswell is an Oscar, Emmy and Tony-winning costume designer known for his work on Hamilton, West Side Story, the new film Wicked for Good and more.
Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden.
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With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
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