Best NBA Summer Arguments With Zach Lowe｜The Bill Simmons Podcast

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The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by the Ringer Podcast Network where we have a new Rewatchables coming on Monday.

Just did one. We did Species on Monday.

Me, Chris Ryan, Ben Latham.

An incredible CR performance.

He's been on fire all summer.

You can watch that on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel.

Really, really funny podcast. Fantasy football season.

We're in range now.

Week one of the NFL season kicks off really six Thursdays from now.

So we're in range. We have the Ringer fantasy football show, which I think is the best fantasy football podcast. guys, Craig Coralbeck, Danny Kelly, Danny Heifetz.

And, uh, you can watch that as a podcast, as a video podcast. You can watch them on YouTube because we have fantasy football, YouTube channel, and you can check out the ringer fantasy football guide that we did, which, um, which we keep adding to and adding different things.

So we will have you ready for fantasy football.

Those guys will be coming on at some point here.

Uh, you can see in the background.

So I have a new set that we have not decorated yet.

I put some stuff up in the background.

That's not even on the wall, It's like leaning against that, but you can see through my finger, there's 1972 NBA top song cut.

There's my book poster with the hall of fame thing.

You can see bird of magic's feet up there.

Uh, the Fenway sign, my guy crocking the tubs, Michael Myers kind of watching us from the background.

Uh, this set's going to be awesome.

And it's something that, uh, we've spent some time on and over the course of the summer on this podcast and the rewatchables, like I'm going to start having guests again.

And like, I just, I never wanted to have guests in the same way that I was doing in the end of 2010s on zoom.

I don't really like the experience of interviewing somebody on a zoom.

Um, so we're going to have studio hair.

We're building some others stuff in Hollywood that we're excited about.

And just in general, like, uh, you know, this has been almost a 14 year odyssey with, with video stuff for us, dating back to Grantland and me and Dave Jacoby, uh, doing, uh, all the audio video stuff we did we built a studio an electrical closet all of a sudden we have a big guest in there we're doing the bill and jaylen uh nba play uh season series and um you know we've always been in the mix with video stuff coven really knocked us back and um you know all the video podcasts the uh the bar started getting raised they started looking better i had a terrible camera on my think pad sorry um but i

think i think all of our stuff's gonna continue to look better as we go through the rest of 2025, including this podcast. I'm excited to explore the studio space, literally.

Coming up, Zach Lowe.

We're talking NBA because we just had a lot of stuff to talk about, even though it's like the doldrums of July.

A lot of topics, really fun podcast. We're going to take a break, bring in Pearl Jam, and then Zach Lowe.

All right, Zach Lowe is here.

We're taping this on a Wednesday morning.

Good to see you, Zach. Good to see you, too.

You're about to disappear.

This is when you're like a couple weeks away from and we just don't see you for like a month and you decompose from the NBA season and then you regenerate and you grow again when we get to mid -September?

I don't really have as many excuses to have to decompress this year considering I was not employed for two -thirds of it, but I'm going to decompress nonetheless.

I will say I'm going to be podcast ready in Europe because you don't know anymore with the NBA.

There's always been a, there's been more and more, every year there's a big story that hovers or that comes out of nowhere.

so I'm ready just in case something comes out of nowhere.

I like that I accidentally said decompose instead of decompress.

We're one minute in and I'm already screwing up words.

You were in Vegas. Your Summer League plan, I love.

You go and you don't actually go to any Summer League games.

You're just there to gossip and have coffees and cocktails and occasionally a meat dinner and you're just gathering information.

This is something. What was the first year we talked about this?

a 2012 all -star break or whatever, when we sent you and I was like, don't go to anything, just talk to as many people as you can.

Now you've embraced that.

It's become a life philosophy and you're just gathering things and you don't know when they're going to pop up.

Are they going to pop up in a podcast?

They might not. But you're just gathering info.

What was the number one thing people were talking about that you felt like was not being talked about in the mainstream?

Oh, not talked about in the mainstream.

Okay. So I had a mate that The number one topic is very mainstream.

What's that? Well, it's LeBron.

That was like the number one topic of conversation by far.

But let's go not mainstream.

Underground. Underground.

Let's go early 90s indie rock.

I would say, I mean, this has been talked about, but I would say expansion, Europe, what's happening.

Why do they seem to be slow playing it all of a sudden?

Is this like, what is the timetable now?

Now, I guess that was like the nerdy NBA topic of discussion.

Yeah. And it trickled out a little bit.

It's, it's really funny how it's changed, right?

Where it just seemed like a lock.

It was going to happen for the last few years.

And I think, I think silver wanted it to happen.

I think there was a consortium of owners that wanted to happen.

And this media deal was so big.

I just think there's owners that don't want to give up money anymore.

And it makes sense because however they rig it, you're still giving up.

up it goes from 130th to 132 or 132nd um for the media thing so you're you're giving up equity you're giving up value so then the question would be well what am i getting to give up that value and before when the franchise values were lower it's like well then each of you will get this extra thing we'll buy out that equity up front but now if you're paying six seven eight million dollars or billion dollars whatever it is for an expansion team why would i then also want to sweeten the pot for every owner with, to buy their media rights too, or not get media rights for myself.

I think it's a real problem.

And I think there's a bunch, I talked about this two months ago.

James Dolan was the biggest one against it.

He's just against everything that Adam Silver wants to do.

What would James Dolan be for?

Like, how can we get, how can we get a yes vote, but from the Knicks in a board of governors meeting?

What, what, do you have any intel on what happened that made him such an adversary to Adam Silver over the last five years?

Like what, How did this develop?

I think it started with a displeasure over revenue sharing, being one of the big market teams that has to pay so much into it.

And then it dovetailed into like, he just got this be in his bonnet that the NBA league office is like way too big.

It wastes money. Why are all these, who are all these people that are coming to my games at Madison square garden with their VIP passes?

Who are like, what, why, why does it, why is it so bloated?

He became one of those, like almost like a fiscal conservative about the league office.

But to your point about expansion, like that was the topic of like people were trying to figure out the sides, like who is the anti crowd in the board of governors?

And I still don't really have a lot of great answers to that other than Dolan is part of the anti crowd.

But I don't know if it's an anti -crowd as much as it is people are trying to do their version of the same math problem in terms of like, what's the expansion fee that I get versus the national TV revenue that I lose versus the valuation of my team versus my timetable of potentially selling my team?

Does it net out a big plus, a big minus?

I think everyone, it's not like that complex of a math problem.

I was talking to one owner about this while I was out there.

He's like, it's not that complicated.

You just have to do your projections your way and figure out what works for you.

This was a pro expansion owner who's kind of like, can we just, can we get a move on with this?

But, you know, it was, it was a strange, it was a strange board of governors press conference in that sense.

Well, and there's, there's some situations where there's some franchises that maybe could move to a different city and be more successful.

And that's the other piece of this, like specifically new Orleans.

And I don't mean to start panic on new Orleans basketball.

I'm also not sure there's enough of a fan base in place to even care that much. But that lease at the Smoothie King lease expires, I think, in 2029.

This is an experiment that has not worked for 50 plus years in New Orleans with professional basketball.

And if like if you and I owned a team and they asked us what we thought and I was like, well, we definitely have enough players to go to 32 teams. That doesn't mean we should.

We're making so much money from the media rights.

I'm not even sure where you could give me back that would make it worth it.

There's a couple of cities that could potentially, a team I think could thrive.

I think Seattle, you know, we've been saying that since before you and I worked together.

Vegas is definitely interesting.

And Mexico City is the other one they're all excited about, right?

So you have those three.

You also have Nashville, which I think some of the other leagues jumped into and grabbed that market before the NBA did.

But I look at a situation like New Orleans, I don't know what that team is worth in its current state.

I don't know what it's worth with that.

Like playing in the smoothie King playing in a market that clearly has not responded to basketball in the same way, these other markets.

And it's like, if somebody bought them and just moved them to Seattle and paid everybody relocation fees, and then you didn't have to split your media rights.

That seems like where this is headed.

And I think there's, I, I'm just going to say it.

I think there's some buzz starting that way that this new Orleans thing maybe is the situation.

Is there any other franchise that you would think could potentially be a relocation threat or is that the, is that the only one?

I have not heard anything about any other relocation threat.

Um, but there's a couple of subtopics that, that based on what you're saying, let's put a pin in a new Orleans thing.

Cause I want to, I want to come back to that.

I just felt I was at the board of governor's press conference.

Um, and I just felt it was, it was notable to me how often and it was like three or four times adam silver went out of his way to say so our whole nba europe thing is separate from expansion but kind of also connected to expansion you said some version of that like three or four times like it's it's not it's not it's not an either or but they are connected in some way and it just like it made me think Like, is this thing like even further along than we realize?

Is it a little bit of it either?

Or is it like we're now prioritizing this other thing abroad, like accumulating these teams in these cities and trying to make this thing profitable, make it real?

Is that now on the front burner versus expansion?

I just found that notable how often he sort of preempted, like no one asked him about it.

He just preemptively brought it up several times.

Well, and that's important because he is one of the more purposeful press conference people people that we have. And if he's, if he's putting little buttons out there, you just have to trust, all right, there's real intent behind this.

I think Europe is a huge opportunity for them.

And I think they know it.

When you're talking about the, the player pool, which, man, when you go back to the, we've talked about this before with the mid two thousands, how rough it was from, from, uh, from a talent standpoint, some of the people that made all -star games, sometimes, you know, some, like you go back to read some of my old trade value columns, some of the people who were like number 31, you're like, Whoa, that guy.

Um, and now the league is just so much deeper.

And I wonder like part of the reason you don't do expansion here is because you're thinking, well, maybe if we have some sort of Europe thing, um, maybe we need a little more talent that way combined the Europe town combined with some Americans, some people that in their early thirties, like you see like the Austin rivers types of players.

just seem to leave the league like a year too early now, you know, because there's just teams would just rather take a chance on a second rounder.

I think Europe's a big opportunity for them.

And I, the seasons are a little different.

Um, the, the, the time of the day is different.

It's just more basketball.

It's more things to offer.

My question with that is, could they just, could they just try to buy a league?

I don't even know how this works.

Like, could you just, could you just try to buy the EuroLeague or, or, you know, buy like the, the connecting properties?

I know the teams make up it, but I, I don't know how you get in without directly challenging the league that already exists.

Oh, I think you're directly challenging the league that already exists.

You're going after it.

I don't know. I don't know the mechanics of acquiring a league.

Like we're getting a little out of my depth on this issue, but, but I do know that like take, take, um, they know the cities.

like they've identified some cities.

Like if we're going to do this, we're going to be in that city.

And that city already has a landmark basketball team, right?

How, what is the arrangement between the NBA and Real Madrid?

If Real Madrid becomes part of this, whatever new league, semi existing league, whatever it is.

Well, Real Madrid is part of a larger sports club that has basketball, that has soccer and all this other stuff.

So what does the partnership look like?

What does the finances look like?

I think that's that's but existing teams like that, I think, are part of the conversation, too.

I don't know the economics of it.

He just brought it up a lot of times.

And I do think they just look at it as a very simple like we don't think these teams, as they're currently existing, are making nearly enough money.

We think we can come in.

We're better at it.

And we'll just make a lot of money.

Well, so maybe it's a situation where they come in, they almost merge with the league and they buy smaller stakes of each team.

and the team sell off like you know one -third so i don't know we don't we don't have enough intel on that but the the important thing is both of us feel like something is something is amiss that that expansion seems to have cooled off and that the europe thing seems like it's it's kind of raising uh importance so what's your new orleans piece to this so a couple this is topic one that i wanted to put a pin in um you this is right up your alley because it just goes into you've been having a field day with the return of the dumb teams right yeah so you're much meaner about it than i am but i love

it and i'm really it's been one of the highlights of my summer i'm so glad the dumb teams are back it's great um there's just the the amount of buzz that's still like every dinner i had every coffee i had every cocktail i had there was some version of like you know everyone goes over the off -season moves what would you like what you didn't like every single one had a version of like man that pelicans hawks trade like what happened there like how how crazy was that and then it dovetailed into it got like the nba news cycle can be just there's so much going on particularly if if the playoffs are also going

on at the same time as some news events you just sort of fast forward through stuff there was a lot of like so let's just hold up for a second new orleans and sacramento Sacramento just hired new GMs Joe Dumars and Scott Perry just like no did a search happen they just wanted those specific guys how did they land on those specific guys if I'm a fan like you there was no interview process was there like what like they just got these jobs out of nowhere there was a lot of that talk too yeah and people that have been retrades I think Dumars made it seem like he had multiple teams coming after him

which just goes Dumars is a nice guy but the way that the last couple years of the pistons thing ended yeah you almost can't do worse i mean you know it should go cold my beer you can actually do worse you can do much worse but the the moves he made he built that 2004 title team and had a really nice mid -2000s and then there was like a seven -year run where it's like what are you doing he also turned a lot over to troy weaver who i just think was terrible in detroit like you go back to the the all the the detroit stuff and you're getting points for drafting kate cunningham first it's like cool

pretty sure pretty sure my son could have done that um but for the most part the duran trade i guess was okay that was on his watch but um most of the young most of the young core belongs to troy weaver um now isaiah stewart i saw thompson i believe was a troy weaver pick um was monty williams a troy weaver pick that didn't go great yeah it was all the other stuff stuff around the young core.

That was, if you talk to people who had sort of trade talks with Detroit during that time, it was all the other stuff that was kind of a mess.

Just like the amount of voices aren't tell them Troy Weaver, the owner, Tom Gore's like who's actually in charge here.

And then the players they put around the young core, the lack of shooting did not put them in a position to succeed.

But I think it is worth noting that like the young core, you're right.

You don't get points for getting a number one pick, right?

Like that's just kind of what you you should do and kate cunningham's awesome but it is worth noting that he that that is a troy weaver core for the most part trajan langdon has done awesome to supplement it and to continue to grow it but yeah there was just a lot of talk of like this summer yeah well i we're going to disagree on that but um i i thought the tray went backwards i disagree with you completely i i don't understand what well like so so on a on a basic level schroeder out to to the kings on just a a wild contract.

Schroeder out, Beasley out, and maybe like out for a while, if not like for longer than a while.

Beasley literally out.

Out. Hardaway out in Jade and Ivy, who I think people forget is like coming back to take - But they had him anyway, though.

But he was a hurt all last year.

So that's why you got Schroeder last year is that they had this void on the team because this other guy was hurt.

He's back, Levert in, Robinson in.

I think they're just better, and I think they're better because their young guys are going to continue to get better and I specifically look at like a Sar Thompson give him a full season something is going to pop there like I think he's got a chance to level like two levels up in one season like I think their supported cast is better I just think they're better That's but that's all stuff that could happen anyway I'm not a Levert guy I've never been a Levert guy I don't want to get aggregated like you did with Cam Thomas last week I can't wait to talk about that I'm just like Cleveland Cleveland's

like trying to win a title they're winning games with him and they're like we're good I think he's a little ball stoppy I don't like the fit with the trade and I think listen it's not their fault what happened with Beasley but Beasley was really important to what they did last year I thought he was their second best player worst case scenario their third best player behind Durin but I just thought he really mattered for them especially at the end of games and now you're replacing that with Caris LeVert and you're keeping your fingers crossed with Ivy ivy um duncan duncan robinson is is good and you

know look in the playoffs like like miami seemed but here's the thing and you know i i enjoy those shooter ball movement guys and i think there's certain teams who would have been really good for miami seemed like they were in or out on him 13 different times over the course i couldn't keep track they paid him a lot of money so like is is so malik beasley had a great year last year high on our six man of the year ballots for both both of us i think you voted you voted yeah i did i thought he deserved it um 14 points a game in the playoffs 37 from the field 34 on threes never gets to the line complete

defensive liability like but does he know that the scandal's coming is one of my questions with that well i don't think that thing just came out of nowhere right after that like i feel like that was brewing for a couple months yeah at some point it's hanging over his head i'm just saying like is duncan thunkin robinson whose contract is like partially guaranteed right after the first year like i think he can do a different version of what malik beasley did for their team and i think if anything the playoffs showed in the regular season i think they were over reliant on malik beasley and the playoffs

the game changes the offense gets better it gets more predatory against it now thunkin robinson is gonna get hunted just like malik i think i'm on like detroit's better next year How many games did they win?

I don't know. They were in the mid 40s.

I think 48. I think, I don't know what the win total will be.

I think they're going to be a better team next year.

I like the identity they had in the second half of the season, the playoffs with those tough veterans, right?

Built around Cade and rebounding and a real attitude.

And I don't know, we'll see, I guess.

Did they lose any of that?

What toughness in rebounding and defense did they lose?

I thought Beasley was kind of a badass for them.

I really did. I thought he had a real swagger and attitude and I, and he was the guy they went to over and over again late.

And I thought Cade, Cade, it's obviously going to come from Cade over anyone else.

The big thing for them last year is that they rejuvenated Cade as, you know, an A -list asset, which I just was, were you ever like wavering on him?

I was never off Cade Cunningham.

I just couldn't believe, I was, I was a little nervous.

i could not believe and i said this often how quickly people went on the well you know he's doesn't get to the line he doesn't get to the rim he doesn't finish well at the rim like he's gonna be it reminded me of the dialogue which turned out to be kind of right on like i remember andrew wiggins rookie year i think it was 538 ran a piece about like statistically he's one of the worst number one picks of all time as a rookie and like this doesn't project well for him and And I was like, wow, it seems like kind of premature.

And it turned out like he is not a great number one pick.

It felt like the Cade dialogue was starting to trend that way.

And I was like, I just, I like, I watched this guy play and he's got something.

He's got the sort of in -between game and the vision and the strength that you need and like put some real guys around him.

But we're getting off topic with Detroit and Troy Weaver.

I never gave up on him.

I got worried, but I always look at those situations where you think, and this happens in football too.

if the situation is awful as I've gotten older, I've learned you have to trust that that's the most important factor if somebody's not looking good you almost have to value the situation over the talent if the talent is there.

Anyway, we got off topic New Orleans and then just the amount of like collective league wide almost sorrow about what has happened to the Kings in two years like how they went from the feel good story of the nba to like nobody even really wants to talk about them they're boring they're like mediocre and boring and directionless in a way that other teams even are like man it's just it's kind of depressing over there you know it's just i don't know it's funny they just became the kings again yeah i mean they weren't the kings anymore and it felt like oh my god the kings aren't the kings anymore

they're actually like a real basketball basketball team and then that died within 18 months and just like the word vivec was said over many dinners and drinks like it that it just it's still kind of a mess internally um and it that you know phrases like he can't get out of his own way he can't help himself you know that's that kind of phraseology came up a lot like because what's been the constant between the beam team and now and all the crappy teams before the beam team post -maloof it's it's the ownership group when that haliburton trade happened i can't remember were you apoplectic or you're

like i can kind of see it where did you land when it happened i was surprised um i wouldn't have done it uh i remember being on tv with jj reddick when he called it uh well it was like franchise mismanagement or something even more stringent than that and i was like that feels a little little harsh given that sabonis has a real track record of of helping teams win and is is a very good player but so i was surprised i remember i remember even saying like a year later and it was it was like oh what this was a win -win trade for both teams this is a win -win trade it's like it's not like indiana won the trade

yeah like the kings just didn't lose it as badly as some people thought they were going to lose it and now it's like what what happened here i like how did we We get here.

I know. I hated it.

It was one of the few times I went all in.

I'm like, I'm putting this in pen.

I hate this. I would not trade Halliburton.

I always thought Fox was the one, if you're going to make a move, that would have been the one I did.

The Spurs thing, we talked about it a little before Summer League.

But they probably have a year here with Fox where you can bring Dylan Harper off the bench. I watched one of his Summer League games.

I mean, he can't shoot.

but he's just such a crazy athlete and he's just clearly going to be a guy.

I don't know if it's going to be year three, year four, like how long it's going to take, but there's going to be a point where it's his team.

And you can just see, like, he's one of those guys who's had the ball his whole life.

He's, he's not going to be, Oh, like Halliburton had that rare ability to just be able to play off people and not have the ball at the time.

I don't think Dylan Harper is going to be like that.

So they probably have a year here with Fox where they can bring Harper off off the bench and be like, we're going to ease you in.

Maybe there'll be a game where Fox is hurt for a week.

You become the guy for a week.

But the weird part of it, though, is Fox doesn't have the massive extension yet.

Right. August 2nd, he becomes eligible to sign it, I believe.

And I do expect something will be done because they did the wink wink.

Right. But when they did the trade, it was kind of understood that they would take care of him.

Well, I mean, he went out of his way to say there was only one there was no list san antonio was the list i wanted to be in san antonio that was the team on my trade demand list and i whether it was wink wink or not i mean you don't do trades like that without some understanding of what it's going to be when you when you hit extension time well your guy rich paul talked about that recently he talked about he was bragging about the brandon ingram extension and he was like we felt like the free agency money free agency money wasn't going to be there we had to get him traded so he could make the money

and by the way he was right because completely had zero chance of making 40 million a year.

If he was a free agent, Brandon Ingram.

So yeah, with the Fox piece, I'm sure they have the wink, wink extension.

I'm sure it's going to happen, but I also, do you think he's going to be in that team in two years?

Cause I don't though.

Two and a half years, like three years.

I, there's going to be a moment where they just give the car case to, to Harper.

And that's going to be that.

Cause I think he has a chance to be that special.

I'm not in a rush to make these kinds of decisions.

Fox and Wemby played five games together last year.

You want to see it?

Not only that, I'm higher on the 2025 -26 spurs than most people are.

I think there's a chance for a big, big leap from them.

I know they have some shooting issues.

Can I join you on that island?

It's not an island.

Anyone's welcome, but I don't know what their odds are over or under or any of that.

I haven't looked at that stuff.

Yeah, it's maybe an archipelago.

Yeah, there you go.

I think there's a chance for a much better...

For the very simple reason of those guys barely played together, one of them has the potential to be the best player in the NBA at some point in his career.

I like a lot of the moves they made, and we'll see how much the rookies can actually help.

But something is cooking there, and I'm not in a hurry to like— I understand the theory of we can win now with Fox, and then when the young guys are ready, we can flip Fox for stuff that fits Wimbanyama's timeline more.

It's not like Fox is old.

I'm not in a hurry to make any of these choices.

Well, I think it was Eddie Johnson who said this on my podcast about how Sabonis and Fox, with the lob stuff where they're both lefties, was just weird. And he's like, watch what happens when Fox is with Wemby because he's going to go left and he's throwing to a guy who's right -handed.

It's going to be different on those high screens.

seconds. It's like, all right, that sounds mildly interesting.

I'm with you on the Spurs.

I've already looked at their over under.

Do you want to guess what it is?

Cause I looked at it after when we said I'm clear, I'm fine.

I'm healthy. I'll be ready for the season.

What do you think their wind total is?

41 and a half, 43 and a half.

I'm over. I'm not even thinking about it.

I'm going over 43 and a half.

I know it's the way I know their way they're young.

it's the West. Everybody's good.

Except Utah, blah, blah.

I'm going over 43 and a half.

Me as well. And I think that, uh, that's probably this year's Orlando if you're going to make a, or this year's Detroit, like the team that just kind of jumps into the high forties because they have a bunch of young guys and they always can throw dudes out.

They also, I kind of like Kelly Olenek.

If he's your 10th man, if you have this weird Kelly Olenek, Luke Cornette, you're relying on like, Like that's, I'd rather have that than Zach Collins.

Oh, there's, Cornette's good.

I mean, just flat out good.

Olenek has been one of these, like, every team that gets him from Utah to Toronto to now San Antonio, I have the same reaction, which is like, I love having a shooting, passing big guy around young guards and young wings.

I just feel like it helps everybody.

And then he just never plays.

And so it's just this sort of like theoretically helpful, theoretically helpful ingredient.

I like the idea with him and Wemby.

I do too. I like the idea of Kelly Olenek.

That's, it's just an idea until it becomes not a reality.

One of the things I love about them, incredible trade machine team.

They have all different types of tradable contracts.

You compare them together.

They have a bunch of cool picks and, you know, that's one of those when we get to December, January, February, that's one of those teams. If they're good, they start out like 20 and 12 and Wemby looks like he's an MVP candidate.

eight that that's a team that could shift pretty quickly let's take a break and then uh we have some other stuff to hit all right so we have more tales from summer league stuff um the biggest thing that i think became a basketball argument was everything the clippers did and let's go let's do that and then we can hit some summer league stuff later i was less excited about it than others while also admitting that um everything they did was just cost effective selective, low risk.

You have moves everywhere.

You're just adding contracts that you could easily swap out or trade or package together.

If anything weird happens.

Um, everybody's made jokes about how old this team is, how they put together the 2017 all -star game.

Um, there's a million ways this could go.

I'll start here. They post all -star, they were fourth in net rating.

I think they should have beaten Denver in five or six.

And they didn't because of what happened in game one and what happened in game four, especially, but I think they were, I don't know if they were better than Denver, but they easily could have taken that series and it didn't go their way.

And a couple of plays happened, but they were right there with the team that then went seven against OKC.

You can make a case.

They were one of the four best teams in the league last year.

That's the most clippery thing ever is to give them, but is to give them a trophy for almost beating the team that almost beat Oklahoma City.

That's the banner that's going up.

We almost beat the team that almost beat OKC.

They're putting that up in the arena.

Game one, yeah, they blew it.

Game four, Aaron Gordon, you were there.

Like, all cool. Denver won another game.

Yeah, they were the champs.

But then they had a game to win the whole series in Denver, and they shit the bed so badly that it's just like it's a black mark on the entire season.

I'm sorry. And that's my bigger picture point.

We could talk about, oh, yeah, they're better.

They're deeper. There's still a team that's built around James Harden.

I don't know if you're a Clipper fan, if you work for the Clippers, if you coach the Clippers, if you're the GM of the Clippers, if you own the Clippers.

I don't know how you fall asleep at night feeling great about that after what happened in game seven and what's happened over the course of his entire career.

I actually went back and watched because I was like, I feel like that was so bad.

Maybe enough time has passed that I'm misremembering something and maybe it wasn't that bad.

It was that bad. He was so bad.

He wasn't, he was doing the thing where he doesn't look at the rim at all.

Um, you knew immediately this segment could be recorded.

I know it could be every day when I'm dead though.

Just CGI it. Um, he was so bad that I don't know how, like you reading these stories about, Oh yeah, he was recruiting Bradley Beal for a half it's like what was the recruiting pitch don't hey we had a really good thing last year could you do me a favor and not watch game seven can you watch like game five uh hey and brad and bradley bill's like hey what happened in game seven it's like i don't know denver just caught like this is a team built around james hardin and fundamentally you cannot win four playoff rounds with james hardin held is he now 36 and he's shown us who he is year after year

for his entire career And I just, I can't get excited about it.

I'm sorry. Well, it's also built around Kawhi Leonard and four playoff rounds is a lot for a player who has battled injuries for his entire Clippers tenure.

And he had a great last, last second half, whatever, 50 games of last season.

When you say battled injuries, do you mean he played 266 games in six years and 37 last year?

Is that, is that bad?

Is that battling or is that drowning?

starting he's it's it's a toe -to -toe battle between kawaii and and the injuries it's it's it's it's neck and neck um look i'll just let me just make a couple of cases for the clippers okay number one i don't think anyone with the clippers has any like illusions about what they are right now like i think they i think they probably think we are a really really good team that slots in fourth in the west at best and if you're if you're talking about everyone's healthy let's go it's oklahoma city denver houston and then maybe the clippers probably the clippers whatever word you want to use and but i

think for a regular season i think you can make a case they could slot in in the top three because of the depth and the fact that even if these guys aren't going to play reliably they still have so many guys they might have the depth to be good it.

And I'm talking to like you were the president of the Clippers are the second best team in the West Island for the last 40 games of last year.

That was your that was your call.

Yeah. And you know what happened?

I know what happened.

Hurricane hurricane hard and hit the island.

So and I had no electricity for a month and a half.

Out go here. Here are the rotation players that they even semi rotation players that are gone.

They're definitely better.

Okay. No, go ahead.

I'm with you. Do your thing.

Not even signed yet.

What was your favorite moment of Ben Simmons' Clippers tenure?

The one day where everybody talked themselves into thinking that maybe this is the time.

Look, he went to the rim one time.

My favorite was I was at the game with Mike Tolan and we were joking about how when he crossed the big circle logo at midcourt, it became like an electric fence for him where he had to get rid of the ball before he got to the three point line and I was I nicknamed in the new logo because the logo like triggered it didn't matter who it was or whether the person was open.

He had to pass it. He wanted he did not want to have the ball within 25 feet of the basket.

And I think it might be one of the reasons he's not signed yet.

Yeah. Out goes Ben Simmons, Norm Powell, Amir Coffey, Drew Eubanks, Jordan Miller incomes, Brooke Lopez, Bradley Beal, John Collins, Chris Paul.

They're undeniably like better than than the team that was last year.

They have 11 guys who can really play.

They're going to need all 11 to get through the regular season.

And I think the idea of the team is like, look, we know the issues with our top two guys, Harden's playing big games, Kawhi's availability, et cetera.

We know how good those other three teams are.

All we can do with the resources that we have and the money we've committed to these two older veterans at the center of our team is put ourselves in the best position possible to pounce if the matchups break right, if a team takes an injury that's in the top three, blah blah blah blah blah and then maybe we're in the conference finals again and once we're there that's all they can do I don't think they're going into the season like oh yeah we hit it out of the park we're a championship favorite I think they know exactly what they are over under on FanDuel is 49 and a half that seems about right

honestly I'm not against any of the moves on paper except one which we'll get to in a second the Collins one I just think they had they weren't going to give Norm Powell an extension and I think he was going to get really sour and I think they were worried about chemistry and happiness with that right so you flip them into collins who hasn't been on a good team since 1995 oh stop no i'm just saying like he he's like it's been a while he's in a contract year and he's on his first good team since that one hawks team that made a run i there's it's it's funny he's become a weirdly polarizing player

because there's some really good nerd arguments for him.

You and I, you and I very much disagree on John Collins.

Well, so the highlight, you're out, not out.

I'm just a highlight of his career was that Philly series.

He was good in that Philly series.

I thought he felt like he was becoming a real playoff guy.

And then if my memory serves me correct, they then played Miami and he was abysmal.

And I, you know, I just think with what they have was zoo bots and Kawhi who had, I think Kawhi is a four at this point in his career.

You could play him at the three, but I just think he's a four.

You're putting Collins with Zubats and Kawhi.

That doesn't make sense to me in the way basketball is played in 2025.

But I do think for the versus Powell, who I think they had a lot of guards.

They were worried about him being unhappy.

The trade makes sense.

It's an expiring. They can flip it.

I'm down with the trade.

I'm not down with John Collins being a huge part of a team that wins four straight playoff rounds, where I get off the bus is with Beal.

I still am waiting.

I've been waiting all summer.

I'm waiting for somebody to explain what actually happened with him in Phoenix.

Because even my friend, Eddie Johnson, and I tweeted something, we went back and forth on Twitter.

And every time we do that, then somebody will aggregate it.

Like, we're mad at each other.

Like, Eddie's my friend.

But Eddie's like, no, no, he was good here.

He was, everybody liked him here.

And he he he was a good son.

It just didn't work out.

It's like, what does that mean?

Because I saw the sons in person and the entire team looked miserable, including Bradley Beal.

Nobody was happy with how he played the entire time he was there.

Part of the issue seemed to be that he didn't like being a role player who didn't have the ball all the time.

Now he's going to be a role player in the Clippers.

And I just don't understand why people think this is going to be an awesome situation with him in the Clippers.

I don't get it. So explain it to me.

Why is he going to be happier on the Clippers than he was with Phoenix?

Well, they got him for cheap, right?

So it's a difference between $50 million and $5 million.

That's kind of a big deal.

And he did average like 17 a game and shot it well and can be a secondary ball handler.

And I think if you're asking him to do that on a team where he's whatever in the hierarchy and not part of a big three and maybe he comes off the bench, they're talking like he's going to start.

I'm not convinced that that's...

They're talking like they're going to rely on him.

He's going to have the ball a lot.

I would not rely on him to have the ball.

I mean, I would rely on him to have the ball in this sense.

Harden, Zubats, pick and roll, bend the defense, kick to Bradley Beal, attack a closeout, or take a second screen from Zubats when the defense is already moving, and that's cool?

I don't know that there's any idea that we're like, all right, give the ball to Brad Beal and get out of the way.

I don't think that's going to be part of the offense for the Clippers unless people are injured or there's just a whole bench mob in the game.

I was like what what's the what's the opportunity cost for them they got him for essentially nothing in nba terms he's still a 17 point a game score still shot 40 on threes still can handle the ball and look I think you're right about phoenix there was just a malaise over the whole team I think his effort level wasn't good enough not nearly good enough and it's going to have to be better obviously on a team why wasn't it good enough nobody's been able to explain that part they changed the coach every year.

He knew he was going to play with Durant and Booker and he knew he wasn't when, when he gets traded, he waves his no trade clause to go to Phoenix, a team that already had Kevin Durant and Devin Booker.

What did he think was going to happen with the shots and the usage rate?

Did he think it was going to be awesome for him?

Those guys averaged like 60 points a game in the playoffs.

What did he think was going to happen?

I would hope that he understood he'd be the third option, but I will say this.

You just got through saying about Cade, you always got to remember that the circumstances really matter.

They do change the coach every year in Phoenix.

They've kind of become a punchline for their spending, which focused on Bradley Beal, the sort of ridicule that he took.

And you're the body language doctor.

How is Kevin Durant's body language from game 10 on last season?

The whole team just seemed like checked out.

But why did that happen?

This is my point, though.

I still don't understand what happened in Phoenix and why that team was so unhappy for two years.

Right. And why, and why they fell as short as they did.

And then, you know, it's like, no, no, it was good with Durant.

It's, it was great.

We're sending him off.

Wasn't his fault. It wasn't Devin Booker's fault.

Here's 75 million a year, even though we won 35 games with you last year and it wasn't Bradley Beal's fault either.

He was a great son.

Well, whose fault was it because that was the unhappiest team all of us watched last year and i don't know if you're carving up the blame pie who has the biggest slice in the blame pie i still can't figure it out um the rest of the roster there was more stuff going on behind the scenes than we're finding out about and i'm still waiting for like the now they tell a story and nobody wrote it no i mean somebody there's got to be something somebody wrote that was interesting like they all the clearly the the bit the closest thing was the whole very weird like Like Bud telling Devin Booker, hey man,

you got to like talk less in huddles.

Like that was a weird one, but I'm not sure that can break a team like that.

Maybe they just never recovered from just getting absolutely humiliated by Minnesota in the first round of the playoffs two seasons ago in a sweep in which that ended with Bradley Beal just like falling over and losing the ball three times in the last six minutes.

Bradley Beal was so bad in that end of that playoff series.

And it's one of those things that we just, the time passes and you just kind of forget.

We've never really seen Bradley Bill except for the, what was that?

The 2017 Wizards, which I thought, even though he didn't, I think he had some up and down shooting stuff, I felt like he really competed.

I don't see a guy that competes in the same way anymore.

And to just expect him to turn that on because he's in a contract here, that's the other piece of this.

So Bradley Bill is somehow gonna make more money out of this.

and they're and dame lowered same thing for different reasons and i feel bad for dame but dame somehow tore his achilles and and somehow made more money out of it the league is in this weird situation where they have the second apron that penalizes everybody and penalizes all these smart teams and if you draft well and you sign well but then it has this other mechanism where you can kind of either get hurt or tank your situation or just not play well and it can can somehow work out, we will make more money.

Because part of the narrative was, well, Bradley Beal does well in the Clippers.

He'll be the biggest free agent a year from now.

It's like, he was already making 53 million a year.

That wasn't enough incentive for him.

And that's somebody I'd want to bet on?

I mean, again. Am I being a dick?

Like, I feel like I'm in the minority on this.

Who were the Clippers getting with a five and a half million dollar salary slot that's better than Bradley Beal?

Nobody. He was 17 points a game, 39 % threes.

but I would be really worried about, so that's it.

That's, I have this chemistry thing where I already have the, whatever, the heart and just never knowing whether I can trust him in a game.

I have Beale where I have no idea.

He wasn't happy as a relegated role player in Phoenix, but now he's going to be happy with that.

I don't know whether I can trust Kawhi.

It's a team that now has a clear two year window, right?

And I can't wait to talk about that piece of it.

You're bringing CP and basically ceremonial.

He'll play 40 games during the regular season.

He might have a playoff moment.

But I would just have real concerns about what happened to Beal and Phoenix and what that meant.

Because he wasn't happy that last year in Washington either.

We haven't seen the guy be happy in the 2020s.

And meanwhile, he's been making crazy money.

I just, I don't get it.

So I need it explained to me.

And on top of it, like his agent and the son's president or whatever, ever their father and son.

I'm aware. And the best you could do is, oh, Bradley cut the exact amount of money he's going to get from the Clippers.

And it's going to save Matt Ishby all this money.

It's like, why didn't he have to give up more money to leave a situation he hated?

And if you're Phoenix, why didn't you wait until February to do this?

If you're going to buy him out and you're not going to get any relief out of it.

And yet the luxury tax does all that shit doesn't kick into February.

Why not wait and try to have a staring contest with him?

can i can i just unleash a mild take right now speaking of phoenix i'm so ready for it this reminded me there are a lot of things we have to ban in nba discourse like nobody's talking about that guy we need to ban that that guy's a problem here's what we need to ban i sat down yesterday and for some goddamn reason i decided i'm gonna watch the entire 11 and a half minute video that the Phoenix Suns just posted inside our draft room.

Day one of the draft. No more.

Ban them. They should be 45.

I kept waiting minute eight.

Maybe there'll be something interesting that happens in the video.

And it's just a bunch of dudes wearing the same ugly -ass Suns polo high -fiving about how the guy they wanted might fall to them.

And then it's just phone calls where Brian Gregory is like, hey, man, let's come here in Phoenix to work hard. You want to work hard?

and model watch being like yep i'm gonna work hard all right let me give you over to jordan not jordan not gonna say something to you enjoy the night with your family enjoy this night with your family then come here to phoenix and work hard yes sir i'm gonna come here to phoenix enough and then there's a whiteboard that's blurred out just no more videos of everyone being like yeah all right look at our polos no more anybody ever not been excited when they drafted somebody in in the top 15 where's the draft room footage of the people like oh man yeah where's the draft footage of the kings calling

in the papayanis pick you know and and they have to call that's what i want to see because the suns i believe had to make that pick for the kings i want to see ryan mcdonough on the phone being like yeah they want they want papayanis man i don't i don't know what to tell you that's who they're telling me to pick papayanis they don't the guy from Greece.

That's the guy we want.

11 minutes of crap, man.

I'm sorry. There's nothing interesting happened in the whole video.

Don't watch it. Great rant.

Couldn't agree more.

Um, so old guy champions, if you think, if you think, uh, James Harden at age 36 is going to miraculously change who he is in playoff games, old guy champions, the two doppelgangers would Marion 33 kid 38 Terry 33 Chandler 28 Peja forgot he played 18 minutes a game on that team I don't remember any of the minutes and then he was 33 in Berea was the youngest guy at 26 the difference is well the difference is the league is much better now and you're going against this OKC team where basically all the guys in the team are born after Michael Jordan's last Bulls game except for that Caruso I think

that that team though is and remains a team that gets brought up the gold standard but for this reason of like dare thee just stay just give yourself the punchers chance as many times as you can as a good and maybe not great team and maybe one year it all comes into place and I think that's just that's the game the Clippers are playing is like that's the team well here's the game the Clippers are actually playing because if you put if you gave them true serum let's go let's do it truth serum and you said do you think you could actually win the title?

Come on. You'd be like alright we have a haymaker puncher's chance but OKC is going to be really hard That's what I've been saying this whole podcast I think that's what they think but what they've really done here is cleared the books for the summer of 2027 and the Norm Powell piece was a big part of this He was going to be unhappy if they didn't give him an extension They didn't want to give him an extension Well, why?

He was almost an all -star last year.

Didn't play well in the playoffs.

That's not enough of a reason.

Balmer is a guy that has always spent and added and paid money, and he's never been afraid of the future.

And now this is a team that's clearly, we are on short -term here, we're on two years.

Well, why? It's because Giannis is a free agent in the summer of 2027.

seven. And I don't, this is like the, you know, there's some maybe some TV networks that dabble and specialize in this, just throwing out names and teams. I think there's, this is a real thing.

I think the bucks are terrified of it.

I think it's a big reason why the miles Turner thing happened because the bucks knew they were on a two year window with, with Giannis and that is a player option and they're trying to do as much as they can to make it so that if anyone's winking at them, that they'll at least have enough of a foundation and try to keep him.

The one thing with Giannis is he's already won the title, right?

That's, it's, when you've already won, it's a different level of mentality because now you're weighing, I've already won.

I could start and finish my career in Milwaukee by all accounts loves Milwaukee.

But I think if you're the Clippers and short -term, you can compete with a puncher's chance for a title, but long -term, you have 20 million on your books in the summer of 27.

You just have Zubats, that's it.

you can basically build the new team and they're in the best position bomber doesn't care about money you bet have you been in the the practice facility and that their their thing is like a fucking palace like you go there and you're like this is a team that spends every every possible asset dollar or whatever to impress the people that play for it and i think i think that's their end game is that summer 2027 short term let's try to win long term yannis and that's how they're they're thinking so a couple of things Lawrence Frank does not does not wink subtly he winks like Costanza's got the grapefruit

pulp in his eye in Seinfeld remember the Kawhi recruitment when he was just like at Toronto games just that and now it might be different with Giannis as a player option but like there ain't nothing subtle about how the Clippers operate number two they're also in position if if need be to get max cap space a year from now because Harden's contract is partially guaranteed it's a it's a weird thing where he got the player option and they got I think it's only 13 million out of 40 whatever million guaranteed and then they have team options on like a million guys Bogdanovich team option Lopez team

option Batum team option like they could clear out 50 million dollars of space from their books without even trying so they're they're flexible on a couple of different levels but sure I mean everybody knows the timetable of of Giannis' contract.

Everybody sees how desperate the Bucs are.

And, you know, I haven't closed the books.

I don't think anybody has closed the books.

I'm like, do we know that Giannis is like, okay, I'm done thinking about anything else now?

I don't know that. Yeah, but he, by all accounts, he's fine in Milwaukee.

And the team's going to be pretty good.

I mean, they actually had a really good offseason And when you consider like what, that the second best player on the team who made 50 plus million dollars was going to miss the entire season.

And you would have said, this team has no chance to look competitive.

The Cole Anthony thing was a big deal, but they got him to be able to get somebody like that for nothing.

He's a rotation guy.

They kept Trent for nothing.

He's a rotation guy.

You know, they, they've added together a team that in a week conference with the best player in the conference, at least is now in the game.

And I think with more of a puncher's chance than maybe the Clippers have. Interesting.

I don't disagree with you.

I went through all the East rosters the other day.

And I'm like, the Bucs are actually a little better than I think they are.

They have a little more depth and a little more day -to -day.

And I do think they can patch together some lineups that I like.

I don't mind a couple of their young guys.

They have some shooting already.

And I agree with you.

He's shown us over and over again he would prefer to stay in Milwaukee.

walkie it actually reminds me of ironically dame in portland who they would just like walked up and walked back walked up and walked back and like now that he's back is publicly saying like i kind of i maybe i shouldn't have ever left and the honest kind of reminds me of that yeah you did a good job with mahoney talking about the on the pod you did with mahoney this week about uh the culture that dame put in portland and how he was all in and all in and all in and i think what What changed that was the Scoot Henderson pick and just getting a top three pick and taking a future point guard. And I

just think that changed how they thought about it, which is why I brought up San Antonio earlier.

Sometimes you can get lucky in the draft and it can just completely change what you thought your plans were for a roster.

And in that case, I think, you know, I would have been really interested if he hadn't gotten hurt to see how they would have handled Dame this summer and whether they would have...

would have tried to peddle him because he ended up the second half of the season before he got hurt.

I thought he was pretty good.

All right. So we're just we planted our flag on keep an eye on this Giannis Clippers thing.

I'm not saying we invented it, but I wanted to quickly mention let's take one more break and then I have another thing to throw you here.

So one other thing happened since the last time you and I talked basketball and it's the Miami Heat heat the zombie heat i'm not saying they're in the cornfield starting to eat human beings again but there were a couple small things they did over the course of the summer where it's like i just thought that team was done and maybe should think about trading bam and just blowing it up and starting over um there's there's just kind of a a roster flexibility slash identity forming informing and i didn't know if you were uh intrigued by it so are you intrigued by it you you have this it's i don't know

if you have some telepathy abilities like like i remember a couple months ago you said you know what teams do you have your eye on is like potentially frisky teams in the offseason i mentioned one you were like that's the one i want to talk about so tomorrow i'm having uh we're doing a pod the zach low show we're gonna put the eastern certain conference teams into tears of teams which is i like to do just for fun and i'm looking at the fan duel odds one two three four miami is 10th to win the to win the east i'm not saying miami is going to win the east that's not a conversation i'm just saying

the odds are what they are indiana's plus 2300 they're ninth then there's a jump all the way to plus 4100 that's That's Miami and then plus 4600 is the Raptors and I keep looking at the teams above Miami, Indiana, Milwaukee, Boston, Philadelphia, that group and I'm like, I don't think Miami's worse than those teams. Like I understand that Miami that all of those teams save Indiana with Halliburton hurt and maybe even Indiana with Siakam have a player who's much better than anyone on Miami.

I don't say Siakam is much better than Bam.

he's probably a little better all around but boston still got jaylen brown philly's got whoever is healthy milwaukee has an mvp candidate i kind of think the heater in that group and i was talking to a couple front office guys earlier this morning before we hopped on this podcast almost trying to get them to talk me out of my heat optimism and and one of them tried to one of them kind of shared i i don't i'm not saying this is like a great team but if you told me the heat went 45 and 37 and snuck into the sixth seed or whatever.

I wouldn't be surprised.

I think this is a better team than Vegas is giving them credit for.

I bet their over -under is like 38 .5 or something like that.

Yeah, 38 .5. It's too low.

And I actually think – I know it's insane.

I actually think like 48 wins could be in play with how bad the East is going to be from a star power standpoint.

standpoint you're just not going against stars night after night you're going and said like you might play philly there's no mb you're gonna play boston there's no tatum you're going down the line the game these games are just not going to be as hard as they were last year so literally 20 minutes before we hopped on this podcast i was talking to an executive on another eastern conference team saying like am i like am i crazy to think miami could win could be like 46 six and 36 and be the fifth or sixth seed like that am i like a like am i missing something about the composition of the east like

what am i missing because i seem to be wildly off on miami and he kind of was like yeah 46 seems a little much but i i literally just said this stuff to 30 minutes ago i said 46 you said 48 48 seems a little high to me 46 uh 10 games over 500 like that's a good team i don't know if that's a little over my skis but i'm with you i don't know what we Powell in the contract here.

We already know he's a 19 -point game score.

They have Wiggins for a full year.

They have Hiro. They have Adebayo.

They got Fontecchio, who I just like.

I'm sorry. I'm always going to think on the right team that guy can succeed.

There's just certain guys on the wrong team.

I get it. But on a team where guys know what they're doing, I'm just in on him.

Jovic, everybody else likes.

I don't like him as much. I like him as much like Russillo likes him.

I like Jovic. I haven't really seen it yet but I know you're of course you like him he's got the itch I gotta I gotta be welcome you got an itch for the itches yeah believe me all the all the people in Croatia that we visit with when we're there they know they know my awards ballot and if I've shunned the wrong Balkan I hear about it right uh Hakes if he ever learns how to shoot Jakosonis I still feel like is gonna I'm still in uh and then they have Highsmith who I've always liked I don't know no, I just don't buy in their team.

There's a Rozier piece.

There's two ways it could go good and one way it can go awful.

The two ways it can go good is he's in a contract here.

Maybe he comes back, he gets cleared and he's actually good again.

This was a guy who was like a 24 point a game score two years ago.

They give up a first round pick for it.

The second way it can go good for them wouldn't be good for Rozier.

What if it turns out he gets suspended for the year?

Like, does he come off the cap?

How does that work?

We haven't had that happen before.

Does he disappear from the cap?

It feels like if anyone would ever luck out from something like this, I was talking to my friend, Mike Scherr, who hates the heat the most. And I was like, you realize if Ruggiero gets suspended for a year, the league will somehow figure out a way that that just magically comes off Miami's cap.

And he's like, you've ruined my day.

I like that you guys are still, the Miami scars are so deep for you.

die. Yeah. I just want the, I want he culture to just be dead and it never dies.

But but the third way it would go, I think I think the bad version of this is that's just a giant 26 .6 thing.

26 .6 million. He's not playing, but you also can't trade them because he gets suspended.

And it's this cap albatross for a year is the one bad way this would play out.

So who knows? I'm penciling him in as Out of the rotation I think that's fair Just in terms of my projection of the heat Because I want to make sure my optimism Is not based on The whatever small percent chance That the Terry Rozier thing totally turns around I'm not expecting that to happen It's unbelievable How much of a zero he's been For Miami It's one of the most under the radar Shocking from semi -productive slash productive to can't even get on the floor in the playoffs for a team that's losing by 50.

The off -court stuff, I think, murdered his season last year.

There's no way you can come back from that, especially if you think potentially really bad things are happening.

He was really good on Charlotte.

Crunch time score. He was becoming a guy that you had to start talking about as what happened happen with norm powell last year where he wasn't an all -star but you actually had to throw his name into the into the conversation for it um anyway there one of the things i like about what they did and i like the mitchell signing too that i've always never gave up on that dude feeling good about my condo on that island um but they have a flexible roster for trades right like powell's still an expiring.

Fontecchio is an expiring.

Highsmith's an expiring.

Wiggins has a player option for next year at 30.

It's not bad. It's a situation that looks a little Lebron -y.

I'm just going to say it.

If we were going to go, all right, somebody came from a time machine and said, in January, February, LeBron James will be traded.

And you had to pick a team.

I think Miami would be one of the teams I would think about.

Okay, two things. And I already...

Okay, two things. Number one, they're only in the whole one first round pick, and I believe they could trade up to three if they do it right.

Their 27th pick goes to Charlotte for the aforementioned Terry Rozier disaster trade.

Number two, I know no one has time to listen to every episode of the Zach Lowe Show, let alone someone as busy as you.

Last week in Vegas, I said I did a segment on LeBron because everyone's talking about LeBron and I said look I've already done all the all the like I've already gone through all the teams everybody's gone through the Cleveland's the Dallas the Warriors the Knicks and on and on I said the one team I forgot to bring up when I was doing it is like there's actually kind of a a heat reunion trade that isn't crazy on paper for either team if it ever came to that what I I neglected to mention on that podcast and should have blamed the Vegas Hayes that I was in is it ended very badly.

Like there were hard feelings in Miami when he left and the banner in which he left and Riley doesn't strike me as someone who gets over hard feelings, particularly easily now winning and a superstar papers over a lot, but I don't disagree with you.

Like I don't LeBron's on a Lakers.

I've heard there's, it's kind of gotten quiet now after it was the talk of summer league, there doesn't seem to be like a clean solution either way everyone's saying we should expect to be on the Lakers that's my expectation but I agree with you like on paper there's a heat trade that is not crazy for either team Wiggins and Powell for unhappy LeBron in January and maybe some sort of pick swap and maybe that's all it is well as crazy as that sounds I think for the Lakers where has got to be in it like just because I've gone out of my way to say I've got to get a rim runner that compare with Luca,

blah, blah, blah. And I'm trading arguably the greatest player of all time.

I gotta, I gotta hit the trade.

Well, and I think he'd be the piece that they'd have to get.

Well, the only thing if there would be real urgency to trade him, you know, he would have to start acting passive aggressively and we've just never seen him do that over the course of his career.

I'm just going to let, let that hang, hang in the air there.

there's just been no evidence over the course of his career that he could use the regular season as a tool to try to make a transaction happen that he would be in favor of you think he wants to do that at the end of his career think of any examples but do you think he'd want he'd want to the last x years of his career with his son on the team by doing that trying to think yeah i can't really come up with any seasons where that happened um listen they waved clutch client jordan in Goodwin who's good to sign Marcus Smart after he was recruited by Luka Doncic.

And I was like, they're now antagonizing the LeBron side.

Like this is, this is flat out antagonizing.

They can say what they want, but think about, think about the hole that, uh, clutch and LeBron had over the Lakers for those first seven years to the point that they drafted his son who had played 10 minutes a game in college.

college. Um, and now it's gone full circle where it's all Luca, Luca, Luca, Luca, Luca recruited.

I mean, you and Mahoney did, I thought you did the perfect breakdown of the Marcus smart thing to expect him to guard anyone with speed.

Who's a guard at this point of his career.

Good luck. Um, he also can't really shoot threes and is the kind of guy that's just a bad fit with a, with a LeBron Luca team.

I didn't like the move at all.

I would have rather had jordan goodwin like for real i don't think marcus smart with with luca and lebron and austin reeves makes sense to me at all because i need somebody who can actually guard all of the awesome guards that are in the nba and guess what i still don't have the person after i did this marcus smart move i have the person who can guard bigger dudes who could be like let's throw him against yannis by the way which matters it matters because lebron doesn't want to do that kind of bang and luca only only wants to do it against the guy who's a non -threat they really can do it but they

need someone else and look Marcus Smart is not going to be Marcus Smart he's not a great three -point shooter but he's an oh he's a good enough catch and shoot three -point shooter on open looks which I think he's better you're betting on the up like we know what Jordan Goodwin is I like Jordan Goodwin I said there's a universe where he's better than Marcus Smart next year I think if you're the Lakers you have to bet on you just have to make a big bet that we're a long shot got to win the West to, to even make it plausible.

We've got to hit home runs on some things that on the fringes of like, this is a chance at that.

You're never going to hit a Jordan Goodwin home run.

He just, his body seems like it broke down to me.

I love Marcus Smart.

He was a great Celtic.

There's an interesting, would they retire his number case that I think if the season, if you have a season three years from now, that's going terribly, you could see it happen.

um he never won a title with them but was one of the most beloved um role player self -fix ever in my lifetime um i don't that's why did you see that i don't think his body can handle a nine month season anymore did you see that he said he expects to get booed in boston no never i mean i i saw look i saw it on i saw it on twitter i suspect everything is fake it It didn't look fake to me.

It didn't look like an AI generated quote, but my reaction was like, dude, it's gonna be a standing ovation.

It doesn't matter if you're on the Lakers.

People are gonna go crazy for him when he comes back.

I have penciled in August 20th.

I put in my Apple calendar.

You use an Apple calendar?

I have a Google calendar.

I use the Apple calendar.

I penciled August 20th in for the day that I'm gonna try to talk myself into DeAndre Ayton on the Lakers.

I already did it. I'm done.

I did it. I got through it in early July.

officially, you've talked to yourself into the scenarios?

I would say my thesis statement for DeAndre Ayton working is just this.

I think it's going to go better than expected.

I think it's going to work as well as the Lakers could reasonably hope it works.

I think he's going to have a decent offensive season and a decent defensive season.

I think if you're expecting him to be amazing, it's not going to work.

I think he's going to roll more.

I think he's going to play Play with a little more force.

He's an elite mid -range dump shooter.

And I think any big man worth his salt who's embarrassed by being bought out by the freaking Blazers, and you could spin it like, oh, no, that's what I wanted.

I wanted to play on the winning team.

Whatever. The Blazers were super excited to clear the way for their young centers, and I want to talk about that before we get off.

I think Luca and LeBron are going to make him look good.

He's going to be a productive offensive player the way he was in Phoenix, and I think he's going to be, If your expectations are Mocking him as Dominating and I'm a max contract Guy and I've done my share of mocking And mocking him for getting to the foul line once Every two weeks that's one of my go to eight in lines I think he's going to be better than that I think he's going to be A serviceable starting center For the Los Angeles Lakers to help their team Did you ever see the clip from the movie Scanners when the guy's head blew up I don't even know what that movie is It's a horror movie that came

out in the early 80s And it was by David Cronenberg and it had this famous scene where this guy's head exploded and it's one of the best special effects scenes of the 70s, 80s, 90s.

The guy is like, and his head like explodes.

I think it's in play for J .J.

Redick this year with Aiton.

With the combo of Aiton and passive aggressive LeBron and Marcus Smart trying to guard point guards, this feels like it could...

And Luca trying to play defense, like there are pieces of this where you could talk yourself into the Lakers season going really good.

And there's a case for them to be a three seed I also think there's cases for JJ they were just a three seed and it could totally happen again I think there's also a case that JJ Redick's head could explode in the sideline because of Aiton when you've watched him play basketball I have I say it both ways I do think though this is the type of team that could honestly kill JJ I'll just put it I'm going DeAndre Aiton 16 -8 solid bounce back season 16 -8, he does get rebounds you know, it's like Barkley's whole thing about you can't get three rebounds a quarter when he gets mad that Jaron Jackson has five

rebounds a game he does get rebounds he'll grab them.

Luka seems like he's in better shape, but who knows we'll find out and the LeBron situation is just going to be really, really weird. They have a lot of expirings and a lot of ways to make the roster better it seems like Luka's going to sign next next month which i i think you know nobody's gonna be surprised by but i believe that's august 2nd uh as well all right so february 15th what team is lebron on safe bet is still the lakers right i mean like i i haven't heard enough i haven't heard enough actionable realistic stuff to go anything but lakers if you're telling me lakers versus field i think

that's i'd still Still probably go Lakers a little bit, but until I hear something, because why would they ever buy him out?

I don't think he has it in him to act out the way Jimmy Butler did to get out of his situations.

Passive -aggressive, maybe, but I think you can live with that.

And I don't know that he wants to do that at the end of his career with his son on the team.

Even that level, like 2018 Cavs level, eye -rolling, passive -aggressive slump.

We've never been in a situation where the player is great as him before where the focal point of the franchise eyes he's on shifted to another guy.

I mean, I'm really interested to see where like I'm talking like the best part of the all time.

So what's your answer to the question then?

What team's he on February 15th, Dallas?

No, because I don't think there's any scenario where the Lakers buy him out.

He would have to really, to your point, he would have to really push the envelope in a way that I just think it would be crazy for him to do.

Like he's a role model.

People love LeBron.

He's going to be a dick to try to get traded.

that he'll do the passive aggressive stuff but he's not going to do the outward he's not going to tank during games he's never going to do any of that stuff um i i honestly would say miami i don't know why i'm so glad it's just like a weird gut feeling it's just and i don't think the riley stuff yeah it ended awful with them in miami i don't think the stuff matters he went back to cleveland after the comic sans letter and all that all the shit that went on, if it's the right move for both sides, and if Miami can look at it and go, holy shit, we could actually win the East if we turn Wiggins and whatever

else into LeBron. And I don't know.

I encourage people, go back list to the Zach Lowe show from last week.

I talked about it. I was like, hero, bam, LeBron, something.

It wouldn't be like a terrible Eastern Conference team.

I know you may have other things to get to, but there are a couple other summer league things things i wanted that are in your wheel in your wheelhouse much more than mine uh a summer league topic that came up quite a bit given young hansen's play is why is there like no buzz about who's gonna buy the portland trailblazers so i ask you you have a lot of ownership sources you're always good on this stuff like why is there there's there's like even people within the blazers that i talked to were like i don't know like we haven't heard anything like what's going on this team is like allegedly in the beginning

processes of being for sale it's an nba team what's happening i heard there's a guy and i heard it's gonna go over four or the only two things i've heard who's not going over three and a half or four at this point well but i think the consensus is it's going to be in the mid threes but i think it goes over four let me ask because there's there's just not a lot of teams available this is it's Portland it's maybe make a power play for New Orleans over overpay for New Orleans and then move them to Seattle Vegas and then other than that unless unless the Reinsdorf shock everybody and just sell the team

for seven million or what other team is there let me ask you this I know you're you can't say who the guy is if you even know who the guy is, but is it, is it, is it someone who already knows I'm not getting Vegas and I'm not getting Seattle if and when those things happen?

Is it somebody in that pool potentially?

Cause that, that, that's, that's a, I don't think it is.

Okay. That wasn't the name I heard that I'm not going to say.

Okay. Um, the Vegas one was really fun because there were so many groups for it.

I was ready for the game of Thrones between all the groups and each group had like a famous person in it i was just very excited to see how that was going to play out but now if we're not going to have expansion um you know if somebody hired me as a conciliary for all this stuff i would just be like just go after new orleans what is what that's the move i know you've talked about it before but now we've seen them play summer league uh some time has passed since the draft what does conspiracy bill think of the young hansen pick and the conspiracy theories that it It was all a ploy, partly a ploy,

let's say, to increase the valuation of the franchise.

So that was a summer league combo, right?

That the combo of Dame, because the Dame thing was nuts.

Like they're paying $14 million this year not to play.

And I know it's great to have them back, but it's just, I thought the combo of those two things I thought was notable.

And the fact that you took Yang Hanson at 16 when you probably could have gotten him in the mid -late 20s, but you were so desperate to get him, you didn't want to fuck around?

Conspiracy Bill was activated.

There's no question.

Yeah, well, I think there's a lot of Chinese money in play.

We've just seen it with some of the players we've had in the league.

So yeah, I marked it.

What was your other thing?

No, that's it. I think between that and Strahinja Jokic just lighting up Summer League all over all over the place the big scary Jokic brother appearing everywhere and scaring everybody I think oh the other one the other one there was a lot of like late in my Summer League visit a lot of like wait what when did Paul George get injured again when did when did this surgery happen with Paul George I thought I just saw him walking around a casino somewhere why did they announce it now what's happening with the Paul George injury what's there and just a lot of like Sixers What are you going to do?

Did the Embed piece come out that was on ESPN .com when you were in Vegas?

It came out the last day I was there.

I left that afternoon.

I have no comment on the Embed piece.

What does that mean?

I just have no comment on it.

You did no comment.

When a representative for Simmons was reached and said, no comment.

You had a rant before.

You did your little thing.

I have my little stupid rant I'm going to give to you for 40 seconds.

I don't understand.

So Washington trades for Marcus Smart.

And they get, they trade expirings and they traded 20, 25 second rounder for Marcus Smart, who's making like 20 million and then 20 million the next year.

Well, they got a first round pick too, right?

They get Memphis's 2025 first, which at the time seemed like it was going to be in the the 20s and then Memphis fell apart and it ended up being the 18th pick solid then they traded 18 for 21 and two seconds and they took Will Riley and then they bought out Marcus Smart for 6 .8 million dollars so basically and we've seen teams do this a bunch I guess that's the market for a non -lottery first round pick you're you're paying whatever is left for the guy in the previous year but you have the expiring so that offsets but then the next year you're paying so they basically paid seven million dollars

and their second rounder to get the 18th pick in the draft does that sound like the right price because this happens all the time we're like oh yeah but they got that pick it's like is that the right price for a non -lottery first rounder and conversely should they make a rule that teams can just pay whatever they want for somebody else's first rounder, like just no cap at all.

Like if the, if the Lakers wanted to pay $35 million for Memphis's 18th pick, they could just do it.

Why do we have a cap on it?

Would teams actually pay?

What are the values of picks?

I just, it got my brain percolating.

I don't know if you have any thoughts.

So people have studied trades over X amount of years.

And like, what is, the average financial valuation of a first round pick?

How much did the Nets just pay for the Nuggets 2032 first round pick, right?

Right. More than $7 million and a second round pick for sure.

And I think those studies would probably conclude, again, you're hitting me with this off the top of my head, that that's actually kind of a cheap price to pay for the 18th pick, that that's probably a good deal cash -wise for the Wizards.

Because the guy's making like like three and a half, four million a year and it's locked in, has the chance to have upside of to be a real guy.

So it's like the four plus the seven that you paid.

So it's almost like getting a mid -level free agent.

I think it just the like on average, what do teams pay for a first round pick and salary dumps, right?

How much dead salary does it take for me to get a lottery protected first round pick?

I'm guessing that's a pretty cheap price overall for Washington to get that pick your second idea broke my brain a little bit uh obviously there is a cap on the amount of cash and trades that you could use in a calendar and be a year you're saying should that cap just not apply to draft pick only trade should we just and then you just come into a thing like what is the price for your humiliation as a team like how much do do you have to pay me to be able to go to my fans with and and take the heat of like yeah sorry we just sold the i know you guys were like super excited about all the mock drafts

and who we were going to take at 17 and like we actually need a player the lakers just paid us 75 million dollars how can we so what's the price for your humiliation as a franchise owner because it's humiliating it's humiliating to just it would be humiliating to go to your fans be like yeah you you know, but look, I mean, I'm richer, we're richer.

Like the practice facility might be nicer.

Yeah. But in soccer or as they call it in the, uh, in the European areas, football, um, they have these transfer fees, right?

You develop some awesome player.

You have like con canipple and he's the rookie of the year in year one.

It's like, wow, this guy's the next clay Thompson.

and then the Lakers just buy him a year later for a $150 million transfer fee.

And people are used to that in soccer.

I think the CBA to me, the older I get, the more I stare at how they think about it is all about just checks and balances with the owners against themselves in two ways.

One, to make sure that you don't end up becoming like Ishpia, like without the second apron, in Ishbia, you're almost saving Ishbia from yourself.

It would be like if I fed my dogs at four o 'clock today and I just put all the dog food on the floor, my idiot dog Murph would eat all the dog food, right?

If I put 20 pounds of dog food on the floor, he would eat all 20 pounds and then he would have diarrhea for like a week and a half.

That's kind of what the second apron is for Matt Ishbia.

What's the diarrhea in this metaphor?

Is it the way of the stretch money?

Yeah, it's the Bradley Beal seven pick swaps and 19 second round picks.

So it's checks and balances on the one end.

And then the other end is that humiliation thing you mentioned where they don't want to give the smaller market owners either the chance chance to be humiliated because like okay see jalen williams they build him up and then he just leaves because they can't afford what the lakers or miami paid but then you also to put owners in the position where they would just sell off shit like they were selling off things in their attic or you know their car honestly i didn't hear anything you said after diarrhea i just i just i just lost i just like lost uh checks about what i mean this is the same thing

like Oh, wait, hold on.

I have a new splash.

The Clippers have just traded for 20 pounds of Murph's diarrhea.

It's going to be fine though.

It's solidified. It's hard. I remember.

I remember when they shortened contracts.

Right. And like, that was the whole argument.

It's like, we got to save these owners from themselves.

Otherwise it'll be like another seven year, $120 million David Lee contract.

Like it's like that it's saving the owners from the step in rule rule is about saving owners from themselves.

It's always checks and balances.

And it gets more and more complicated with every good luck reading some of the fucking pick swaps on real GM.

Like, I don't know.

Can someone just tell me who gets what pick?

I don't understand this pick in the second and fourth.

Do you want my document?

I have a document. I created a document that I rely on because it's so confusing.

I actually had to write all of it down with all the mac and I'm going to send it to you as my little summer gift. Are you upset that when we brought you to the ringer that we didn't do a recruiting trip we didn't have people calling you like luca donchik called marcus smart should i have done that uh yeah i think you should have all come to my house and you know we should have done that like seven of you should have appeared at my front door uh with with food and wine like i don't know i could have read apparently joe house called zach low today and they were on the phone for a half hour talking

about how great the ringer is drunk house or sober house drunk house or like drunk drunk in an ambulance house like which being carried out of a chinese food restaurant house um here's my last thing and then we'll go the the bleach report did that top 100 whatever the point kobe was 11th and everyone went crazy yeah i haven't looked at it that's the only thing i know about the whole list by the way is what you just said kobe's 11th it's basically for the ninth spot 9 10 11 and 12 i guess it's curry kobe jerry west and yokich and people i'm not going to make the case today i'm not going to put

you in the spot you've done no research but um it's basically a curry versus kobe versus west argument and i thought it's interesting because people are just so stupid when they talk about the history of the nba and And it drives me crazy.

I don't even know why it bothers me.

But people are like, Kobe 11?

That's nuts. It's like, okay, we'll make your list. But the Curry versus Kobe versus West is so fascinating to me because it's these three different generations of guards.

And I think you could honestly make a case for any of them.

I think Curry's case, I thought Curry was gonna pass Kobe and actually had him proactively in my pyramid ahead of Kobe.

But now I'm looking at the end of Curry's career And I think, I just think that's going to be an awesome historical argument as we get further and further away from it because curry's whole thing about how he's only made four first team on BAS.

That's like a, like Kobe was first team on BA, like for freaking a decade and a half, it felt like, um, but Kobe only won one MVP. They, curry has the four titles.

Kobe has five curry, never got to play with anyone like Shaq, but he did get to play with Durant.

So the two Durant years, But Kobe had the three Shaq years.

And it's just a good battle.

And I think it's a more interesting argument than social media gave it credit for.

Because it's one of them for that ninth spot, I feel like.

I'd have to go down and do it.

But having done it before, like 11th doesn't feel wrong on its face.

And if you started to list the 10 guys above him, I bet it would be pretty, like, at the very least. I mean, there's like seven that are just, they have to be.

I'll give you the list, just so people know.

MJ, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, and Wilt.

So eight guys, and it's not negotiable.

Those eight guys have to be the eight in some order.

And by the way, I am glad we've reached a point, not like you talked about Curry, Kobe being a fun historical argument.

For a while, the go -to one was Duncan, Kobe.

And I would always be like, I like, I love Kobe.

Like, it's not like Duncan, Duncan is a top, whatever, like Duncan's above Kobe and has to be.

Yeah. And you know, the older we get, we're going to have to defend that one more and more, but we were both there and it's just, he has to be, I mean, Duncan, you just won 50 plus games.

If he was on your team, there was no ifs, ands, or buts.

He made everyone better.

And I just, he's now become the most underrated him and Hakeem I think are the two most underrated historical guys ever and there's some other guys where's Shaq on the list the Bleacher Report list I think Shaq might have been higher than 11 I can't remember but Shaq's one that as the years have passed I think he's actually his stuff has kind of gained steam yeah I think Shaq has been largely underrated until the last few years historically like there was just nothing you could do with Shaq it was just like Like you could, there was, there were, you had no defense for him other than Fallon.

Well, there's now Jokic is in that conversation too.

And there's just a really fun Jokic, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses.

There's this whole tier of centers.

That would be fun to argue about it too.

But we should, I was thinking we should do a special podcast at one point where we just go Curry verse Kobe verse West and try to figure out what's up for all.

Because West is the most, out of all those guys from the first 25 years or first 30 years, I really think West is the one You could put in a time machine You could have just put him into basketball now And he would have been completely fine Even somebody like Russell Who's the greatest winner in the history of the league They're still like, alright He was 6 '9", 210 pounds Like I at least want to see Couldn't really shoot I at least would have wanted to see How dominant he could have been Compared to how dominant he was when he played West is like just fucking plug and play For 80 years of the league

There's nobody like him You know so anyway we should do that at some point um he's one of my favorite he's one of my what one of my favorite players of all time um i've been i've read every book about jerry west i've got to talk to him on the phone and meet him which is obviously an honor um i think he's just like i've said before like when they when people do who's the greatest laker of all time it's like well magic kobe kareem should get some love i'm like i don't know like jerry west gets no love in this argument.

The guy is like a lifetime Laker, all -time great player, great at every part of basketball and made the finals a million times and got the nickname Mr. Clutch despite losing in the finals every goddamn year to the Celtics.

He was still so good.

Imagine that. Imagine now you lose in the finals.

Everyone just makes fun of you.

Oh, he got no rings.

That dude was so good that he got the nickname Mr. Clutch losing in the NBA finals every year.

Right. He won the 69 finals MVP MVP. He had have a check inconsolable after he won the 69 title being like, I feel so bad for Jerry West. Cause he like literally did everything.

The one thing that he didn't have was that he never won an MVP, but I did this in my book.

He should have won the 1970 MVP. It's like actually kind of crazy that he didn't.

So I feel like that's an honor area.

Can I, can I ask you one, just it's, it's an unfair followup to this, but it's, it's a, it's another summer league conversation I had with one guy what's the ceiling on Jokic's all -time ranking how many more years can he be at the level he's been at for the last five in your opinion I mean I don't see why it's not at least five more so if he does five more I think he has to be on that magic bird level for connection to the teammates success every year probably needs you know I I I it's funny it's it's the ring culture thing has become stupid because it's like guess what you know what matters winning

the title so I did you were the best guy when you played in a season it's the best way we can figure out who the best guy was I'm sorry that That still matters.

So I was I was listening long overdue, listening to the Steve Nash LeBron Mind the Game podcast about when the rings culture thing came up because I wanted to hear.

I wanted to hear exactly what they said.

Full context. They didn't want to hear the soundbite.

I didn't want to see the aggregation headline.

I want to hear what they said about ring culture, what LeBron said specifically.

And I texted Steve afterwards and I was like, man, I wish I wish I had been in the room because I had like a lot of takes that I could have pushed back onto this.

But like the other thing I said was if Jokic wins one title and that's it, he's going to be the ultimate sort of barometer for this, because the statistics are going to say he's a top whatever single digit player of all time.

And how do we talk about him with only one ring?

Is it going to be like a Jerry West situation where we just sort of like, well, he's just that great.

But if he just gets stuck at one and he's let's say he wins another MVP. he's a four -time MVP with one championship and these statistics don't even make any sense how are we going to talk about him it's too early for that but it's just he's going to be an interesting test case Denver's got a shot to win it all this year for sure probably the next year after that I think the big thing to remember when you talk about this stuff is what era was the guy in and how good was the league how competitive it was right because when you talk about like the bird magic magic Magic was in the West that just,

they didn't have a lot of competition because of what happened to the Mavericks, what happened to the Rockets.

Any sort of big rival that was coming kind of got vanquished and they were just in the finals year after year.

I sound like a Celtic fan talking about the Lakers, but the Celtics were in that conference against Philly and then Milwaukee and then Detroit.

And we probably had five really good teams and they kind of split all the rings up, right?

Between four teams. I think now when I look at the Jokic thing, I just think it's, I think it would be harder to do that.

I think winning a guy winning three rings now in the 2020s with the, especially the second apron stuff.

And I think it would be even in a weird way, more impressive.

Cause everybody's better at putting together a team and we also have more high end talent, right?

Giannis has only won one title too.

LeBron's won, he won in 16 and he won in 20.

So he's won two in the last 10 years.

Curry's one he's won four, but that, I mean, that team was a historical fluke with what happened with the Durant ad, right.

Upgrading from Barnes to Durant.

We'll never, we'll never say anything like that in our lifetime.

And I just wonder like, is it just everybody's going to win one or two now going forward?

Unless OKC can figure out how to be dominant, right.

That may be their historical fluke.

I don't know. But don't you just feel like we have too many good players for somebody and the sport's too hard to play these injury variable variables like i that's another piece like just to stay healthy um almost feels like you need more luck than ever you agree yeah i mean you look at just who's won all the multiple rings in the last look at who's won all the multiple rings in like the last 15 years or whatever it's like whatever team's lebron on and the warriors with their their four in the short span of time two of which are with Durant and an all -time one -time only cap swag.

And then you have the Spurs who won, you know, five over an enormous period of time, which is in its own, you know, there there's only one guy that was on.

And that's a perfect example.

They won five and really could have won seven, but you go back and look at some of those teams and those teams just wouldn't have won titles in the league that we have now.

You, you couldn't have won a team.

You couldn't win a title in 2003 and three with Duncan and his prime, but then Robinson in a back brace, super duper young Tony Parker in rumors that they're trying to get Jason Cade instead of him.

Manu is not even close to Manu yet.

You go through, it's like, how did that team even win the title?

It was just, the league was way, way, way weaker.

And it just was, you know, like people from that era probably push back on it, but it just was like, go look at some of the teams we've had this decade.

The teams are, I think way deeper.

Even a team like Indiana, which was unconventional, they had real depth.

Think about that 2012 Celtics team that was playing Michael Pietras and Brandon Bass.

I was going to say Brandon Bass, mid -range jumpers.

Or the 2010 Celtics that was relying on Rashid Wallace for 36 minutes in Game 7 in the finals.

Nobody had depth like we have now.

I just think it's going to be way harder.

Brandon Bass was guarding LeBron in game 7 of the 2012 conference finals like on purpose I kind of like Brandon Bass I thought like he's one of those guys that just where the league went he was one of the casualties that kind of 6 foot 6 15 foot kind of post up game didn't have 3 yeah he was one of those anyway I could talk about this all day Sacklo you got a podcast tomorrow you're breaking it on the east East. I didn't look, what is the Celtics over under, by the way?

I'm nervous. Ooh, 43 and a half.

It seems high. It's not, that's not up though.

Yeah. We're going to break down the East and we're going to have another, JJ is coming on for Mets corner.

Mets corner is taking off everyone's favorite baseball segment.

You didn't go to, uh, David Wright day, did you?

No, I was, planning to, and then we had to change our plans.

I was going to be at the Sunday game, so it was going to be...

It was David Wright weekend.

It was going to be the end of David Wright weekend, but I did not end up going.

We have tickets. We're going to Old Timers Day in mid -September for sure when they're bringing back.

They're doing Team Shea versus Team Citi Field in mid -September.

So hopefully the team is still in contention at that point.

I'm not sure. Alright, thanks to Zach Lowe.

Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well.

I'm going to be back on Sunday with another podcast and then uh we have a a very fun rewatchables on on uh monday there's rumors you might be on our rewatchables in august before you disappear i i sent you a list of uh of of candidates that's that's for sure all right good to see you zach low have fun guys Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and president DC gambling problem.

Call 1 -800 -GAMBLER or visit RG -health .com.

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[NBA의 현재와 미래: 확장, 재건, 그리고 전설들의 역사적 논쟁]-[Best NBA Summer Arguments With Zach Lowe]

📋 Summary

NBA의 현재와 미래: 확장, 재건, 그리고 전설들의 역사적 논쟁

1. NBA 확장과 유럽 시장의 부상

2. 구단별 재건 전략과 '바보 같은 팀들(Dumb Teams)'의 귀환

3. LA 클리퍼스의 모호한 2년 시계

4. 역사적 선수 평가: 커리 vs 코비 vs 웨스트

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript