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Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast.
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here.
Back for another episode as we of course break down some of the psychology of our 20s.
I'm going to come right out and say it.
The biggest questions that we have in our 20s and the questions that I get the most of revolve around dating.
Like how exactly are we meant to do this?
How do I stop getting attached so quickly?
How do I know if this person likes me?
If I even like them, how do I find the one and not be completely exhausted by the process?
Or the biggest question of all, is this something that I should even be prioritizing during my 20s?
Alternatively, could this be my decade to just be like free and uninhibited and not worry about this process?
I think that I am there with you and so many of us are.
It is occasionally, you know, dating is more trouble than it's worth, but I also deeply believe that dating shouldn't be a chore.
It should be something that's fun and exciting and that you don't feel any pressure towards.
And that there is some pretty amazing ways to go about it that bring us to this point.
The question that that leaves us with that I know I'm full of a lot of questions is how do we get there?
How do we get to that point?
And to give us the expert advice on how to date, when to date and who to date in your 20s, we have the host of the Outstanding Podcast, Data Bull, Julie and Yue.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having us.
Thanks for having us.
I love your voice. I'm just so pleased to buy your voice right now.
Thanks so much, guys.
You know, a little bit of ASMR to kick things out.
Can you introduce yourself and introduce Data Bull?
Who are you guys? Who is?
What is the show? Oh, yes.
We're going to get right into it.
We've had this podcast for almost a decade.
We were introduced, Julie and I were introduced by a mutual friend over a decade ago, actually.
And we were just sharing what you call them war stories of dating.
Like, what have you survived?
And we thought it was such a great way to share what's going on in modern dating, share our own experiences and not feel like we're alone in it.
So we decided to do a podcast out of it.
But since then, we've really evolved the way we see modern dating.
We think we are at a point where people are very fed up with dating.
Dating is harder than ever, but also it gives us the best opportunity to date right now.
And we can go into that more later and we go into it in our book.
But the two of us come from kind of like this.
We straddle the old and the new.
So, you know, I'm like the first millennial.
So I'm, you know, I was born in 81.
So I'm the first millennial.
And I just remember growing up with all these rules about dating, very traditional ways of looking at gender roles.
And now with modern dating, we're straddling kind of a progressive view of dating.
So I was feeling lost because I only knew kind of the traditional ways of dating, like who pays for what and who should text and who should initiate.
And here I was in a world where all the rules are kind of thrown out the window and I had to recreate a love life that worked for me.
And I didn't know where to start.
So that's where I was when I met Julie.
Yeah. And where I was, I don't think I ever set out to be a dating expert.
So it still makes me laugh every day.
But I was just as confused as probably many people that are listening are right this minute of just where to date.
I got all the old books.
We were kind of talking about that before we got on here.
You know why men love bitches and the rules.
And I thought I would approach dating like I did like schoolwork or a job and really study up and learn all the ways to navigate it.
And I think that's why those books were so appealing because they gave you a framework.
The problem was I was not myself at all in the process.
And I just remember friends being like, you're so social, you have so many friends.
Like why does dating not stick ever?
And I was just lost.
And you know, I think when I met you, I was actually coming out of like my first real serious relationship.
And at that point I was like, you know, I found someone I did it.
I made it work. And then it didn't.
And it wasn't because the love wasn't there.
I realized just like not all the time things happen the way like we're told they are.
And like in the movies and you know this simplistic view of relationships.
And I think it just made us both really curious on the topic and want to dive in even more.
I love that this was like an accidental career for you both.
Oh, 100 percent. You're gravitated to things, right, that you like struggle with.
Oh, 100 percent. You know, the psychology of your 20s, I have no idea what I'm doing.
That's the whole reason I'm doing this.
But you do. But you do know what you're doing.
Yeah, exactly. And then you learned along the way, right?
You know, I just get to interview really smart experts and they just give me all the tips like yourselves.
But I do think that you raised a really interesting point, which is that dating in this day and age is very different.
And I think that a lot of us are bringing very outdated ideas of what that looks like, outdated ideas of like, what are the games that we have to play?
What are the rules to follow?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Why do you think that those rules are actually, you know, I don't know.
I don't want to say worsening our chances, but making it so much harder for us to actually enjoy the process.
Well, if you think about it, dating is for you.
You're not dating for other people.
Yet we are restrained by these rules that other people have created for us, these social constructs that are not serving us for most part and not helping us in any way.
So just by virtue of saying there are these rules already puts us in a box and doesn't free us from being our most authentic selves in dating.
Yeah, I think this is kind of a weird response as to dating experts.
But one of the things we've realized in our decade is you actually don't need to be good at dating.
Maybe it's actually hurting you because the way dating is operates today.
We're not saying to not date.
It's maybe to change how we date.
But the way it operates today, it's all centered around disconnection when all we really crave is connection and the games like we hear, you know, people are like, well, I'm over the games.
I don't do that. But that we hear them say like, oh, but, you know, I'm going to wait half an hour to text that person back because they didn't text me back right away.
That's a game. And it's like, oh, so baked into dating culture that we don't always even realize when we're playing games.
I really like that point.
It's like, is the biggest mistake that we're making not being authentic?
Like, is it just seriously back to basics?
Oh, my God. There we go.
Done. Episode over.
And that was actually going to be one of my questions.
I was going to be like, you guys are the dating experts.
What's the biggest mistake that we're making?
What's the thing we're getting wrong about dating?
Is it, you know, that we're not authentic and is it that we're trying to be someone that we're not in the first week, month, day, year of dating someone?
I mean, you did a recent episode about dating burnout and we truly believe that you feel burnt out when you are not true to yourself because you're exerting more energy to be something you're not.
That's how you get burnt out.
But if you're authentic to who you are and your needs, then you feel energized.
Like, dating should feel energizing if you're doing it in a way that serves you, right?
So I think you're onto something there, Gemma.
Maybe the biggest issue is we're all trying to be something we're not.
And that's what's causing us to be burnt out, to feel overwhelmed, to feel completely failed by modern dating when we just need to take the control back and say, I am in the driver's seat of my love life and I will make every choice, every action, every behavior is in line with what I authentically
stand for, not what society or other people want for me.
I also feel like with what you were saying then, when you put on this false persona, you end up attracting people that you don't even like.
And like you said, it's so draining and you're so burnt out.
It's kind of like a friendship.
When you just know that you and a person, you really actually don't get along that well.
There really isn't much chemistry, completely protonically, of course.
And you don't remain friends with those people.
You don't message them, you don't text them, you don't really want to hang out with them.
But with dating, it's like the stakes are so high that you give these people second, third, fourth chances.
And then you're both exhausted during the relationship and then afterwards you probably feel a sense of like, but I did all these things, I did everything right and it didn't work out.
That's the whole cycle that I think really frustrates people.
Absolutely. And we call it in our book, actually, the validation trap.
This is something that's getting in people's way because dating is no longer a way to just meet new people and have fun and see who the right match is.
It's basically measuring our self -worth and that comes from all the pressure with dating.
And, you know, UA and I really fundamentally believe.
We've talked to like thousands of daters.
We've seen people that, you know, felt really hopeless.
It felt like I've never had a real relationship or I just don't know how to date are now in super healthy relationships.
So we really believe that, like, everyone is datable.
That is a core message that we have, but it's modern dating norms that are getting in the way.
So you asked earlier, like, what are some of the biggest mistakes?
I think it's coming to modern dating culture.
Like we had one of our friends come on the podcast and she was saying how, like, in every other part of life, she's like, go get her.
She, you know, makes plans proactively.
If someone asked to meet up in a business context, she's on it.
A friend asked to meet up.
She does it. But in dating, she feels like because, like, everyone else is putting in less and less effort, it makes her do the same.
So then she ghosts because they ghost.
And it's a cycle. She drops to what she called the lowest common denominator.
And her thing was, well, if someone's going to give me 10 percent, I'll give them nine percent.
And our take was why not give them zero percent?
Like, they're showing you what they're giving.
You know what you want to give.
Like, how do you rise above dating culture and not just do the thing because that's how dating works.
And this validation cycle, a validation trap.
Even better. It could be a cycle as well.
Yeah, neither. You don't want to be in either of them.
Let's just avoid with the validation trap.
Like, how does it keep us in those same unsustainable relationships or situationships or dating the wrong people?
Yeah, because you are constantly tying your self -worth to other people's behaviors.
And your perceived perception of how they see you.
That even me just saying that sentence is so exhausting, right?
Because you're constantly like who you are, what your worth is a product of how someone else treats you.
That's not how life should be.
You know your worth and you know what you're putting out there.
You know what you bring to the table.
Why have other people dictate that?
So the danger with a validation trap is you never fully stand strong in who you are.
You're not rooted. Your branches are just tied to all these other people who are moving in every which direction.
Like imagine how weak that tree is if they have no roots, but branches tied to all the other trees.
You would end up just being like we call this a dating chameleon, where you just, you know, pretend you're other people to try to fit into other people's lives.
I think one of the biggest challenges I had personally was situationships.
It was like even before the term existed.
I was the queen of situationships, always in them, all through my 20s and even into my early 30s.
And finally, I was able to crack that luckily.
But I think the biggest piece was with validation is that one, I think I just didn't know like what love actually should look like and what a healthy relationship was.
But also it was this cycle of wanting the approval of someone and feeling like I could win them over.
And you know, I'd already invested so much energy, the sunk cost fallacy.
I'm just going to keep going.
And it was so tied to my ego that like I wanted to win.
But I was like winning by settling for someone that didn't even really want to be with me.
Like that's not winning at all.
And I think rejection also ties to that when we're so tied to validation.
We want to avoid rejection at all costs.
And then like the most recent time I was dating before I met my partner now three years plus, I just lost all of that.
Like I got to the point where I was just like, I'm going to show up as myself.
If someone doesn't want to be with me, then like, I'm going to move on.
And they're clearing my path to find the right person.
But it took a lot of reframing to get to that point and not fall for validation trap anymore.
And I'm sure like even with all the knowledge you had, it's still very instinctual.
Yeah, that's just, you know, it's basic human psychology.
Like you want what you can't have like you end up being led by attraction.
Yeah, exactly. It's FOMO.
Everyone else has these relationships and you're like, if I can just make this work, like I can take that off my list as well.
It's so interesting because literally this morning I've been with my partner for like two years now.
We have the best relationship.
And this morning my ex -situationship messaged me out of the blue right before I came on the...
They always come back.
They always come back.
And I was like, uh -huh.
Hi. And he sent me like this meme about how, you know, as we're recording this, like the U .S.
election is going on.
And he sent me this meme about like how Kamala Harris is like banning all situationships and like anyone who creates a situationship like should go straight to jail.
And it was so... I was like, where the fuck is this coming from, mate?
Like I haven't spoken to you in like three years.
You're still thinking about me.
Like, I'm with this amazing person now.
You know that I'm with this person.
But he messaged me and I got this feeling in my stomach.
It like did a flip and I was just like, oh my God.
And I just felt all of these emotions all over again.
And I remember like, you know, three months ago I was like, why was I, you know, for a while, I've been like, why was I ever in that situation?
And I was like, because he knew how to make me really anxious.
And he knew how to like...
I think I say this a lot.
It comes down to like being a bit of an overachiever and a bit of a perfectionist, like everything else in my life, much like your friend, right?
I had to work hard for.
And there was this whole sense that like what's easy, like if it was easy, everyone could have it.
So the relationship that was most hard to obtain, the person's attention that was most hard to obtain was the one that I should focus on.
And I think that made me incredibly anxious and he really knew how to leverage that.
And it was just this wild feeling of being like, wow, I'm like straight back in this time for just that second.
I feel exactly how that felt.
And it gave me like a sense of forgiveness of like, yeah, no wonder.
No wonder. Like I was getting so wrapped up in this when we were in those situations, you like everything is just playing on this like instinctual, anxious drive.
This sense of like I need to find stability here and the only way I can find stability is to like reach the conclusion of this relationship and make it into something more.
I just think that like, I don't know if that's been your experience, but that was the real reason I found myself in situationships for a very long time.
As well. A hundred percent, I can relate to everything you just said.
In our book, we actually have a quiz of like what type of data you are.
I'm curious if you took it, but I was an achiever dreamer.
And that combination was kind of maybe guessing that is what you are.
Yeah, I was actually once that.
That's the exact notion that I had to of like, you know, I imagine this fantasy with this person and like for, you know, everyone can take the quiz even if you don't have the book and go to our website and take the quiz.
But like it's so fascinating because it's all about like what are your strengths that you bring to dating, but then also what holds you back.
And I think in that situation, it was like this getting ahead of yourself, making something romanticizing it.
This is also natural.
That's why like with all of this that we talk about, it's like these are just traps that everyone's falling for because it's like it comes from this achievers mindset of like I still want to get this person.
100 percent. And like you said, what is winning?
The win is being with someone who doesn't even want to be with me.
Like, that doesn't seem like a great prize.
No. That seems pretty crap.
How do you think we can stop ourselves from really getting carried away in the early days?
Because sometimes I find sometimes, you know, I've now been with my partner for a while.
So not recently. But when I was dating and what a lot of people do ask me is I meet this person and suddenly I am fantasizing about the wedding that we're going to have in three years.
We've been on one day.
Is that like just infatuation or is that a sign of like something deeper?
How do you stop that from getting in the way of actually getting to know each other?
Yeah, it's such a great question because so many of us fall into that.
And I would argue that it's very healthy to fantasize about a future with someone.
If you don't do that, then maybe you don't have a heart.
Like it's good to to feel like the warm and fuzzies about someone be like, oh, my gosh, maybe we could have a family together.
But this sounds like typical dreamer where you get so ahead of yourself that you get wrapped and wrapped up in the story and then you forget about the reality of what's happening.
So, you know, even in the book, we always tell everybody to just like fact check, write down all the things that are real, all the things you are feeling and then just know that you can observe all of this and all of this can exist at once.
Don't feel bad for feeling this way.
But also, it's good to do a reality check every once in a while.
OK, it's only been three days.
OK, I don't even know their middle name, like, OK, like we have we haven't had a conversation for longer than two hours.
Like it's good to to just bring you back to reality.
But it's OK if you fantasize every once in a while.
Like it's natural to do that.
And in today's dating culture, too, we call it the expectation of love on demand, another trap that gets in our way because in today's world, everything happens at lightning speed.
Right. Like you can get an Uber and you can order a meal and all the things like at the touch of your fingertips.
And of course, you expect that in dating, too.
So with this, like, as soon as we meet someone that we like, we often get ahead of ourselves and we start imagining this future and also couple in that people are really frustrated by dating and just want to get out.
So it's all this like perfect storm of, you know, maybe not giving other people that could be potentially better partners for the long haul enough time and then focusing on people that we don't really know.
Like you said, I really had to get realistic because this was a huge problem of mine.
I remember even like when I met my partner now, though, like I remember my best friend being like, so do you think you'll go out with him again?
I'm like, you know, if I do, that would be awesome.
And if I don't, that's also OK, because I have no idea what's going on in his life after going out with him one time.
And I think it really took conscious unlearning of those patterns.
I guess the other thing that really factors into this and listening to you to you both talk about it is this idea that like you should have this passion at all consuming spot.
Everybody's love stories.
And there's this huge idea of like, you should know within the first five minutes, like real love won't hide.
And if you have to like take time and be patient with it, like obviously it's not the one for you.
It is also comes down to like if you wanted to, if she wanted to, they would.
Which I am like, yeah, OK, if I get it, I do get it.
I think it's like a nice philosophy.
But sometimes, like you said, there's other things happening in their life.
Maybe they do really want to, but they can't.
But also it gives this expectation of like grand gestures and huge commitment very, very quickly.
Sometimes like the best love comes from slowing down and comes from taking your time.
How do we do that? That's like the million dollar question.
How do you like slow down, actually enjoy dating, actually enjoy the process and getting to know someone in this like love on demand environment, in this like very urgent society that we live in.
Such a beautiful observation.
I will tell you, I spent my 20s being addicted to love and my 30s chasing that high.
And now being in my 40s, I realize that was all a ruse.
Like that was not, that's not what relationships are about.
So I think it's it's good to know that, you know, oh, I really chase the butterflies or I'm chasing that grand, passionate feeling.
Because as long as you are observing that, you know that's happening to you.
But the second step to that is to say, am I feeling this passion for this person because they haven't called me back in two days and I've now written this novel about them and I'm now addicted to this story of this person.
Or are they actually showing signs of being a partner?
That's why I'm feeling love and passion for them.
And in my 20s, I will tell you, I was chasing after people who were the first how I described in the first way as they were not available.
But I was so connected to the story of who they were that I began chasing not them with these fantasy characters.
So now I can look back on that and say, OK, I'm glad I went through that experience.
But this is I think this is the biggest shift for me in how I turn that around.
My friend Amy told me this because I asked her, like, why do you want to get married?
Why do you want to have kids?
Why why do you want any of this stuff in life?
And she said, it's not the achievements or the milestones.
It's I want to learn how I can expand my heart to the fullest.
And I thought that was such a beautiful way of putting relationships and dating is it's not about the end result or getting someone or chasing this milestone.
It's what can you do to love the fullest at each opportunity?
And even if that person doesn't stay forever, you are using that opportunity to expand your heart.
And I really hope that everybody can take that expansion in mind when they're dating because it's it makes it so much more of a beautiful, enjoyable and like self focus experience.
Absolutely. It's also the sense of, like, what are you rushing towards?
You know, what's the rush?
And I know people are always like, well, I just want to do all these things with them.
And I'm like, if you're going to be with them forever, they will happen.
And you don't want to squeeze a whole relationship into like four years and then be like, wait, we actually never really got to know each other.
I always say it's like you've got to enjoy, enjoy the waiting rooms.
Right. There are periods in your life when you're in a waiting room and it's kind of like, oh, like, you know, I'm not I'm not like coming to the destination.
I'm not at my destination.
I'm just kind of in the middle.
And I do think that relationships have those rooms as well, where it's like, OK, this is the time when we can like sit and slow down and have a chat and like pick up a magazine and like just really, you know, fill out some forms, really get to know each other.
Like, I really value that in my own relationship is, you know, early days, like it's only been two years as it is.
It really does mean that there is a trust built there.
And I and I know that the bedrock of my relationship is not excitement.
There is excitement in there.
But the bedrock is like true liking and knowledge.
And like you said, like my heart has room to expand.
It's like when you blow up a balloon slowly rather than just like giving one big push and like it explodes everywhere.
So I like that advice a lot.
I think this is easier said than done, but we need to like remember the long game here.
Like, I don't we've had these conversations with people that, you know, got married super early and are now divorced.
And they were saying how they felt like they lacked the communication skills, the relational skills.
They just didn't do it because, you know, they just everything just fell into place and it worked out.
And of course, I was like, I'm not saying that every couple that gets married early, this is going to happen to.
But I think if you are in the situation where you're like, I've been dating for a while, it's hard.
Remember that it's all going to something like you're learning at every step of the way here.
And I really think that like dating is the perfect opportunity to like test out and train yourself and practice saying what you need.
And we're always so afraid to in dating because we're like, we don't know this person well enough.
I don't want to scare them away.
But if we turn it like why not scare away the wrong people like that's filtering people out for you.
And then also like I mean, I know for me a huge pivotal point was when I was like, OK, I'm going to date with my own needs at the forefront.
So that involved getting clear about what those needs even were, what I wanted because in the past I was like the hitchhiker, along for everyone else's ride.
And that's why I was in all the situation chips.
But then when you are able to turn it on yourself, then you're in control and you're making those decisions.
And you can also look at it like this person isn't the right one for me, not just I need to be saved and get done with this.
Oh, my goodness. Words I had wished I heard a long time ago.
Three or four years ago, those would have been incredibly helpful, but I had to learn it the hard way.
We're going to take a short break, but when we return, we're going to talk more about how to date seriously and how to know if someone is the right one.
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For 17 years, Subaru has made buying a car during the holiday season an act of love with the Subaru share the love event.
From now until January 2, when you get a new Subaru, Subaru and its retailers will donate a minimum of $300 to charity, including the ASPCA, where it will help all sorts of animals from cats to chickens and from donkeys to dogs.
About a year ago, my family and I adopted our third dog named Whiskey.
She was a victim of cruelty and the love and joy that she has brought to my family has been almost unmatched.
And without Subaru's support, it would be incredibly difficult for us to support Whiskey and the hundreds of other cruelty cases that we see every year.
The ASPCA also improves the lives of farm animals, cares for pets in disaster zones, and lends a hand when caring owners can't meet their vet bills, all thanks to the $35 million Subaru's donated.
We are very careful about who we partner with, and Subaru was doing good before it was hip, before it was cool.
They were doing good because it's part of their ethos, and that's what's so important to the ASPCA in this relationship, and I think that's why it works.
The 2024 Subaru Share The Love event runs through January 2nd.
To learn more, go to Subaru .com slash share.
Subaru, more than a car company.
I've got a more serious question.
I feel like the first half of this episode we talked about getting to know someone, doing some of the work in yourself around what kind of data you are, how you can go about going slow.
So say you are with someone, it's getting serious, you are having fun, you're vibing.
Neither of you are seeing other people, it's exclusive.
What if you have doubts?
What if you still have questions lingering in the back of your mind, like three, four, five months in?
Is that something that you should call it quits over, or is it worth kind of giving them the grace and gift of time to see if it works?
Yeah, and this goes back to our expectation of love on demand too, because people feel like they need to know right away and also have no doubts in early dating, and it's so you're always going to have doubts.
That's the reality of relationships too.
Relationships evolve and you're going to have moments where you're like, am I with the right person?
So in our book, we actually make it very clear.
We have a perfect partner equation.
So you can just follow that formula, and really, it's a plug and chug, but also it grounds you into what matters in choosing a partner.
And we really boil you down to there are only seven things that matter, and one of them is consistency, as this person consistently showing up for you.
But here's the thing though, we can do all the overthinking, because the thinker is one of their dating archetypes as well.
This person is going to be like, every moment, is this the right person, is this the right person?
At some point, you just got to say this is the right person until they're not the right person.
We see this with so many relationships that span years and years.
They're right until they're not.
And that's okay. They do not need to be the right person forever.
They are right for you based on your core needs, your values, etc.
And that's all you really need to hold on to.
You don't have to think like a hundred years down the line.
I think it's understanding why you're having the hesitation too.
Like you always say, is it something that's core to your values or the way you feel or your futures are in a line?
I just gave away some of the perfect partner equation.
Or is it that stuff from your past is coming up that's causing you to feel that anxiety?
Because I think there's a big difference if you're with the wrong person because you're fundamentally not aligned versus the normal anxieties that happen in relationships.
And like I know for me, I thought like once I met that person, it'd be all easy because the anxiety and the difficult part was in the dating because I met someone.
I'm like, oh, this is like the type of person I was looking for, you know, everything on the outside is healthy.
But what I've learned is like even in the healthiest relationships, we get triggered.
Stuff comes up from our past and there's a big differentiator if this person is wrong for you or it's coming from the back.
I love the way that you put that because I do think that there are so many amazing people out there for us.
We will never choose just one if we constantly think that the grass is greener.
And of course there is an important distinction between, like you said, you know, you have this beautiful relationship equation.
There is an important distinction between not feeling certain because of big questions and not feeling certain because you're like, oh, could I have something more exciting?
You know, could I have the butterflies again?
I honestly see this a lot with people in their 20s where they're like, oh my God, my relationship just feels so stable.
And we're so used to chasing the high of early love that, you know, I had a friend who was in this gorgeous, beautiful relationship.
She left it for similar reasons and they are now back together because she was like, I just realized that actually this person was amazing.
They were everything that I wanted.
I was just looking for something that actually a past version of me wanted more, which was something exhilarating and intoxicating and addictive.
Is that the relationship that's going to take me to my 30s to my 40s to my 50s?
Is that the relationship I want to raise children within?
Probably not. Probably not.
But there are sometimes those situations and you guys have this amazing episode, which I'm just going to plug here because it's so good.
About whether you should leave a good, not great relationship.
And if that is the case, this relationship is like, it's fine, it's okay, it's not amazing.
And you do decide to leave.
How do you get over the fear of never finding someone better?
If this is in your stars, if this is in your path, this relationship isn't right.
How do you stop yourself from staying for longer than you should?
Yeah. So, I was 42 years old when I found out my partner of five years had been cheating on me.
We were making plans to start a family.
We were in the middle of trying to conceive when I found all the text messages that nobody should ever read from their partner.
So, here's the thing.
After this breakup, and it was hard, it was devastating.
I realized if I can get through this on my own, then I am perfectly great.
Like, if this is the default of my life is to be strong and independent and be like this warrior on my own, then anybody who comes in my life is just additive.
So, having that kind of reset going back into dating, it was so refreshing because I didn't feel like I needed to hold on to people.
I knew that whoever was meant for me will be in my life and whoever was not meant for me will naturally filter themselves out.
I did not need to force people to be in my life.
I did not need to force people to be in relationships with me.
And that allowed me to attract the right people.
Because these were people like, oh, her life is great.
I want to add to it.
I want to be a better part of this life.
Like, great. Come along.
But I don't need a relationship.
I don't need a partner.
When we have the scarcity mindset, we feel like we need someone to save us.
Like, a relationship is going to bring us to this island where everybody's safe and fed and roofed.
And that's not how it works, right?
Like, it's just relationship won't save you if you can't save yourself.
I think, though, it's natural what you were saying.
Like, especially like we tie in like a present bias, right?
We look at what's in front of us currently as like having more weight than what could be in the future.
And it's really hard to see that something better could be around the corner.
Like, looking at you a situation, I feel like you're in a much better relationship now and place now.
But in the thick of that breakup, you could not see that.
You could not know that.
So it's a really hard situation that makes us often overstay things that aren't working.
I think the hardest one, too, is like when it's a good relationship, like nothing's wrong.
But you're just like, is there something more fulfilling for me?
And of course, we recommend, you know, having all the conversations, doing the work, going to couples therapy, not just throwing in the towel at one feeling of that.
But if you keep feeling that, and you're like, fundamentally, I know this person isn't right for me, you also have to honor that, too, and honor that and trust that something will be out there that is better served for you.
Because if you're fundamentally feeling that way, then like you do deserve something more and so does the person you're with.
I was going to say, yeah, so does the person.
Imagine if you were with a partner who was looking at you.
Right. I just don't.
Like, I'm not going to leave them because they're good, not great.
Right. That would break my heart if my boyfriend or my partner was like, yeah, she's okay, but I'm too scared to leave her.
Yeah. And that's going to be the rest of my life?
Right. Absolutely not.
You almost owe it to that person to, like, take that off.
And to yourself. Yes.
You owe it to yourself as well, because that's still your reality.
And I love what you said of like, okay, you might not find a better relationship, but you'll find yourself.
And isn't that just as valuable?
Because there are people who go through their entire lives who do not find that.
And I say that with the most serious level of gravity, having seen it in family members of mine, actually, who I'm like, you know, you married like the first person you met.
And now you're like 70, 80.
And like, I can just see that only now are you figuring yourself out as someone who's older.
And it's beautiful that they're getting that opportunity.
But it is something that you need to take seriously.
You can't. Like, there's never going to be a good time to end a relationship, ever.
And there's never going to be like the final, you know, especially if you're with someone who's really great and kind and happy.
If you're waiting for them to like screw up as an excuse to like break up with them.
I honestly think that's a little bit manipulative as well, because you're going to push them into those situations where they're going to have to take the reins.
Like I love the, I think the overarching theme of everything you guys say is like being the driver's seat of your love life.
And that also means having like, if you're going to be in the driver's seat, you've also got to make some hard calls.
That might include, you know, leaving someone who is good, not great.
But what you're saying actually inspired something that we talk, Julie and I talk about all the time is sometimes we evaluate our relationships on the wrong things.
Like, Oh, this person is so nice and faithful and kind.
Like, I should stay with them because they are a good person.
Well, you like just being with someone because they're a good person doesn't actually do anything for anybody.
You want to be with a partner who is committed to growing with you, who is committed to expanding the relationship with you.
The minute your partner shuts down or you shut down from that growth, that relationship is over because you can no longer evolve that relationship, no matter how kind or nice or great this person is.
So instead of like us being like, Oh, I can't leave a person who's so nice and great.
I would just challenge people to say, have you set up your partner for success in terms of how we've had discussions about growing together and where can we expand more into?
Where can we be better at in our relationship and see if your partner's receptive to that?
Just like hanging your hat on someone being a good person or nice.
It's just not enough, simply not enough for a relationship.
So this is an interesting tidbit.
But like when we did that episode, there was a specific couple that had come to us that was in mind, and they actually stayed together.
And years later, they are super happy and the doubts are gone, which is fascinating because your instinct is to be like, leave, go find someone else.
But I think that actually goes back to like some of the challenges with modern dating that's always the instinct.
And that's why we're kind of in or headed towards what we're calling the love crisis where dating is so hard that people don't want to do it anymore or the mental health aspect is getting so out of control that you wonder, like, is it even worth it?
And if we're always onto the decks, we can never develop the relationship.
So I like that example because it's like what you were saying, you have like when you look at what's missing, how are you looking at it?
And can you have that like come to conversation of like, how do we move that barrier?
And then if you've done all the work and you're still not there, at least, you know, you did it instead of just moving on.
I love that. And I like, I really like this realistic approach of like, look at the right things.
And the order I've gotten that saying of like relationships or work, I used to be so scared of that saying, we used to be like, no, no, no, it should be easy.
Yes. But like you go to the gym when you want to, like you look after your body, that's hard work, but you still enjoy it.
Everything is work.
Everything is work.
Exactly. Anything that's good is work and is a choice.
I actually think that like the easiest things in life aren't always worth having.
You know, it's easy to like be passive in your life.
It's easy to sit on the couch and it's easy to like eat the food that's like on your way home and it's easy to do X, Y, Z.
Is that going to put you in the best place?
Probably not. Same goes for a relationship at times, especially like, I don't know, especially when there is just so much about them that you do really like and that is important.
I know we're giving like conflicting advice here, guys.
I think the basis of what we're saying is if you have an instinct that maybe this relationship isn't right for you, investigate it further.
Is it for a reason that is something that you can work on or is it something fundamental about your character and your plans and your visions?
The first step is definitely to really test that out with your partner and really do the work in the interrogation if they are someone who is genuinely a great person for you.
And then it's kind of up to you like maybe the reason our advice is like this way and that way is because there is no one answer.
But I love the analogy you gave of that couple.
It's heartwarming. I think the question too is like, what's hard?
Because like if you're like constantly trying to get attention from a situationship that is telling you outright that they don't want to commit to you, that's not the right relationship for you.
But if it's hard because it's actually making you confront parts of yourself and, you know, feelings that are coming up or emotions that you've stuffed away, that's like the right type of heart that's challenging you to be a better person.
So again, I think it is conflicting, but we have to come back to like what the root is of like what is actually the heart.
I love that. Now we have to wrap up because I've just got completely carried away.
It's like I just want to ask you every single dating question I've ever had.
I think to finish the episode and I ask a lot of my guests this, what would each of you pick one thing, the best piece of advice that you would give your 20 something year old self around dating?
What do you wish that you had known back then that the listeners can know now?
I think for me, it's trust in your timing, especially in your 20s.
There's so much pressure to, you know, meet these artificial milestones and it's so much better to take your time and be with the right person.
Again, it goes back to the long game and, you know, getting into this mindset to of I'm the one in control, I'm figuring this out.
It's not the apps. It's not my city.
It's not all the other people like I'm the one leading is so empowering too.
So if you can combine those two mindsets of like, you know, things will work out for me, especially if I make this a priority with I'm in the driver's seat, then I think that really sets you up for a lot more success.
I think even asking the question you just asked is a really good way to think about dating.
The question is if you're let's say in your 30s or 40s, what did you learn in your 20s about dating?
Ask yourself that question in your 20s.
You know, ask yourself like in this situation I'm in right now, 10 years down the line, what would I tell that person that I learned from it?
I think in the 20s, you don't need to be like I have to figure it all out and I have to get it all right because you'll never get it all right or figure it all out.
But it's such a great place with so much freedom to play and to experiment and discover.
Just know that you are intentional about the discovery process.
You're not repeating the same patterns of behavior that every moment is teaching you something so that when you do reach 30 you go, yep, in my 20s, I learned all of this.
Like I have a whole list of things I learned.
And also like your dating life and life doesn't end at 30.
There is such a pressure to make sure that you've like picked up a partner along the way.
Oh my God, absolutely not.
No, you have so much time.
You have so much time.
So I want to thank you both for coming on to the show.
I also really want to plug your book, How to be Dateable.
By the time it comes out on January 28th, correct?
And it's incredible.
It's a really good book and it's practical and it's helpful and it's modern and there's just so many nuggets of wisdom in it.
So I'll leave a link to pre -order the book in the description of this episode.
Where can the listeners find your podcast book and they find you both?
So many places. We're all over the internet, but really wherever podcasts are, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and yeah, datablepodcast .com or howtobedatable .com.
Brilliant. Again, thank you so much for coming on and for your beautiful advice for us 20 -somethings.
I hope that you guys, the listeners enjoyed this episode.
Everything else that you need will be in the link or in the description of this episode.
Make sure that you leave a five -star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you were listening.
Give us a follow so you know when new episodes are coming up, especially with 12 months of guests happening at the moment.
We have some more amazing guests on their way and until next time, stay safe, be kind and be gentle to yourself.
We will talk soon. The holiday season is back, which means it's a time for giving.
Subaru and its retailers believe in giving back to those who need it most.
For the past 17 years, Subaru has made the act of buying a Subaru during the holiday season an act of love.
When you purchase or lease a new Subaru during the Subaru Share the Love event, Subaru and its retailers donate a minimum of $300 to charity.
By the end of this year's event, Subaru and its retailers will have donated nearly $320 million to national and hometown charities.
To learn more, go to Subaru .com slash share.
Subaru. More than a car company.
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