My name's George and I edit The Imperfects.
I grew up on Ngunnawal Country, studied on Bundjalung Country and am now living and working on Wurundjeri Country.
On behalf of The Imperfects, we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded.
And we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The rich storytelling history of the world's oldest living culture is what we proudly pay homage to when we share stories on The Imperfects.
I didn't do anything.
I didn't say anything to him.
I didn't defend my co -workers.
And shamefully, I didn't say anything to them after.
I didn't go to them and say, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
It was deeply inappropriate.
Are you okay? And I've sat with this story now for decades.
The Imperfects invites you into a very safe place.
A place where we share without judgment and drink heaps of vulnerability.
Grab yourself a cup.
This is The Vulnerability House.
It's not often that we get repeat guests on the podcast.
You know we truly love someone when we desperately want them back on the podcast.
And today, Ben Shuri.
I don't ever call you Ben Shuri to your face, Ben.
But yes, Ben Shuri.
Hello, Ben Shuri. Hello, hello.
And what an absolute privilege and honor to be back on with you guys.
I've been so looking forward to this.
Someone, after your last episode, someone commented, they just did an emoji.
It was a chef hat and then it was a mind -blowing emoji.
And then I didn't get the third one as a palm tree.
I didn't get that reference.
But I agree with them up into the palm tree.
It was an extraordinary mind -blowing and palm tree.
A holiday, I'm not sure.
I spent probably a bit too long puzzling over that one.
It's got me now. To the extent where you brought it up on the following episode.
You were mind -blowingly good last time and so it was a no -brainer to get you back on.
This time into the tea house.
Who's Ben Shuri, Hugh?
For the 10 people who don't know.
Dear, dear wonderful friend of ours.
He is the owner of Attica, which is one of Australia's best restaurants.
He is one of the world's best chefs.
If you didn't listen to the last episode that we did with Ben, we'll put a link in the show notes.
It was a wonderful episode.
So we are so happy to have you back today.
How are you, Ben? I'm good, I'm good.
I'm in the middle of a bit of a maelstrom.
And so it's very kind of intense.
What a word. Just remind me what that is again?
I know, I know, I know.
I know every word. Effectively, it's like being at the centre of a tornado, something like that.
I mean, literally, I know if I was literally at the centre of a tornado, I wouldn't be talking to you right now, probably.
Unless I was strapped to something.
But you've made commitment though, you're in the middle of a tornado.
It's a self -created tornado.
And, you know, there's this radio head song that I was listening to as I came here.
And, you know, in the restaurant we often use music to pump ourselves up before the performance and service.
And so I'm listening to, you know, this radio head song, which I've forgotten because I'm terrible with names.
But there's the, it has an ending where the guitar is just spiraling and spiraling and spiraling, and it starts to break up.
As I imagine the musician brings the guitar close to the amp and it starts to split up and splinter.
And it's sort of self -destruct.
And I was like, wow, this is kind of how this moment feels like.
This is amazing. I very specifically thought, on the way to do a band's interview, I need to listen to a song.
Because I felt like that's something you would do.
And you did do that.
What did you listen to here?
Well, I felt, I was in the driveway and I thought, I want to feel really emotional.
I felt like I need to feel emotional for a band's interview.
That's the headspace I wanted to get into.
And I listened to a slip.
I've mentioned a song before.
I listened to Slip Sliding Away by Paul Simon.
I really thought you were going to say Slip Not.
I thought you were going to say Slip Not too.
I was like, I'm not making the connection right now.
But whatever gets you going.
Yeah. Slip Sliding Away.
Slip Sliding Away by Paul Simon.
Oh, beautiful. The nearer your destination, the more you Slip Sliding Away.
Anyway. For context, the reason you're in the Maelstrom is because you've just released your book, Uses for Obsession.
And you're talking to everyone.
You're doing talks.
You're doing interviews, launches.
You're all over the shop doing everything.
And so just for people's context, that's why it's all going on for you.
That's correct. Yeah.
Wow. It feels very appropriate that we're doing this today.
And it was sort of half by design, but also very much by coincidence.
I've been reading the book, and it's not a cookbook by any means.
But there are a couple of recipes in there for Bolognese.
Oh, he's cooking. Don't worry about it.
Yeah. Let the man cook.
And... Thanks, dude.
And I spent Saturday cooking the Bolognese.
The first of the three Bolognese recipes in the book.
And I've frozen it, and it's ready for dinner tonight.
And I'm so excited.
So it feels like a very appropriate day.
And you said it was the second time around.
You didn't really feel like you'd...
Yeah. I feel like I didn't nail it.
I didn't read the chapter properly, and I tried to reduce the quantities and make a smaller batch.
And I'm like, I'll just make a small batch.
And then in cooking, I'm like, this doesn't seem to be working as well.
I reread the chapter.
I'm like, oh, you cannot shrink the size.
It has to be the full batch.
So this is the first time I've done it with a full batch.
Okay, great. So you're on your way to joining my Bolognese cult, then?
I'm a one step, or three.
Yeah. The third step, I'm not sure I can do with small children.
I think I need to wait until I'm a bit older and mature a little bit.
You only need a week to make it.
I'd really... What are you complaining about?
Yeah, I've got plenty of time.
So much time. You've got to make your own bacon.
And I suggest that you buy a fancy pan as well.
I mean, I'm not really expecting anybody to do that.
I look for an excuse to buy a fancy pan, though, so I think I might have to...
My mutual friend Simon did buy that fancy pan and a whole heap of other things because he was the recipe tester.
Wow, okay. Professor Simon Bell.
Exactly, the professor.
Can I have that job next time?
You wrote a book? My goodness, if I knew you'd wanted that job, I would have passed over Simon.
So is this taste tester?
No recipe tester. I've got to do the cooking.
You've got to cook the recipes and give me feedback.
I'm retracting my offer.
Oh, I'm not a cook.
Oh, okay. All right, I couldn't do it.
Oh, hasten to remind you, you cooked a delightful pasta once when we went away.
That's true. I was delightful.
You've cooked a delightful pasta for me before?
Oh, jam did. Oh, my goodness, now I'm going to get in trouble with jam.
No, and I just copied jam.
Was it the same pasta?
Yeah, yeah. Okay. It's your signature pasta, right?
It's my only pasta.
It's called the signature.
And it's jams. Exactly.
Okay, so this is the vulnerability house.
For those who don't know, the way this works is we have a deck of cards in front of your bed.
And on each card, there is a question written on it, and you'll pick three cards on the top of the deck.
And if one of those questions sparks some sort of memory or vulnerable feeling or story, then we welcome you to share it with us.
But you can just keep picking cards until something sparks with you, if you like.
So, Ben, please pick your cards.
Scary. Now, the first one is, what is your proudest moment?
Second, what was your biggest fear as a young person?
And third, when was the time you stayed silent and regretted it?
True. I'm reading the book at the moment, so I'm sure I can think of examples from the book actually.
At least two of those three.
But not that you have to say anything from the book or anything, but...
No, thanks. Not that you have to promote the book if you don't want to.
I'm totally up to you.
I hold two views on regrets sometimes.
And sometimes I think I live without regrets, but then I know I don't.
And I think it's kind of narcissistic to live without regrets.
I think we all have things we regret.
So, I think for me, this is going to be when was the time you stayed silent and regretted it?
Okay. Before we start, a very terrible time for you to bring this up, but can I just ask who's on your T -shirt?
Sharon Van Etten. Oh, yeah.
An incredible singer -songwriter, musician from Los Angeles, California.
A male or a female?
A female. Awesome. She's amazing.
I don't know Sharon.
And I was... She's wearing a singlet.
And it's quite see -through.
And I didn't know if it was a male or a female.
And I didn't know if it was...
I thought I was looking at her male's nipple.
And I was like, that's fine.
And then I realized, maybe I'm not.
And maybe I've been looking for too long at that.
I've never noticed that.
Have you heard a word we've said so far?
It's the weirdest time to bring that up.
And not only bring it up, but to go deep on this course.
I just needed to explain why I didn't know who Sharon was.
I'm very distracting to you.
I can... I know this now.
I'm just going to put a hand over that.
It's fine. No, I wasn't looking as in, oh, look at that.
I was just... I was curious.
Just keep going. What am I looking at here?
I'm curious. Interesting.
I think Sharon Van Etten is a tremendous person to ask about.
Yeah. Yes. I look forward to doing more research.
Well, I'm going to do more research, but I bet you're going to do more research.
Google image. Okay.
So, it's the perfect time to bring up that before Ben launches into a vulnerable story.
Sorry, Ben? So, do you want to go back to the question?
Let's refresh. Let's refresh.
Definitely need a refresh.
Just in case that miraculously stays in.
There's no way it's staying in.
When was the time you stayed silent and regretted it?
I'd say that already.
That shocks me because I feel like I've never met anyone who is better at saying what they think and standing up for.
Having the courage and convictions is like a bit of a, almost like a cliched thing of something.
But you live and breathe that every moment since I've met you.
100%. Well, that's very kind of you.
And that's certainly who I try to be.
And I think it's who I am for better or for worse.
But I suppose, you know, like any person, you're always on some kind of journey of improvement.
And I think what I hope for myself is that I get kinder and more thoughtful and gentler and have more empathy as I age.
And I really do believe that's true of humans generally, you know.
But if I look back upon my younger self, and some people might say somewhat harshly, but that's who I am, there's definitely been some moments where I didn't live up to my own expectations and one that jumps out and one that I wrote about in the book.
And this is a hard story to share with you because I write that it's my greatest regret.
And it's an ugly story and it will be hard for some people to listen to this, I think.
And the reality is that I'm in New Zealand and I'm about 23 years old, and I'm the sous chef to the Governor General of New Zealand at the time.
What does that mean to be a sous chef?
Second in charge. And the Queen is coming to visit.
And this is a really big deal.
Queen doesn't come to visit New Zealand very often, and we're the Queen's appointed servants as the employees of the Governor General.
And so the whole house has been sort of upended and it's kind of like something out of Downton Abbey, if you've ever watched that show, where an eligible bachelor is coming to visit.
And all the servants, and we're the servants, are frantically painting everything and cleaning everything and organizing everything for months and months and months.
So finally, we are lined up at the entrance.
The chefs and the waiters and all of the employees of the house, and on either side of the entrance inside the house.
And the door opens and the Queen comes in, the Queen of England.
And we've been told not to touch the Queen.
And the Queen comes past us and nodding and we're bowing.
When you say don't touch the Queen, it's like don't shake her hand.
Don't physically touch her.
That's not cool. She'd go without saying.
Don't say anything either actually, by the way.
Oh, right. And then, so she passes by and that's fine.
And then Prince Philip comes into the room and he's very jovial.
He's sort of a jolly good chap.
And he's the opposite.
He's, you know, shaking hands and we're bowing and whatnot.
And he goes past us and it seems as if he's about to leave the hall.
And all of a sudden he turns and says, where are all the savages?
And then as quickly as he says this, he chuckles to himself and swings around and leaves.
And this complete and utter silence.
Whoa. And I don't know what to do and I don't know what to say.
I wonder if it's worth just giving some context as to what he meant by where are all the savages?
Well, there's really only one way that that statement can be taken.
It's a purely and utterly racist statement aimed at the Maori people of New Zealand, of which were many who were standing there, many who were employees of the governor general.
And I knew, you know, instantly, of course, how devastating and horrible and abhorrent this statement is.
And I didn't do anything.
I didn't say anything to him.
I didn't defend my coworkers and shamefully I didn't say anything to them after.
I didn't go to them and say, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
It was deeply inappropriate.
Are you OK? And I've sat with this story now for decades.
And I write that it was my greatest regret because it was an immense failing of humanity on my behalf.
I knew better. I've been raised better.
My mother has always been a strong anti -racist and taught me the importance of understanding that not all things are equal in the world of my own privilege as a Pakiha.
I mean, you haven't come here for like like validation.
I mean, it's so on so many levels.
I understand why at any age someone would would freeze in that moment.
It's so unexpected, so shocking.
I think the shock of it is just would render a lot of people unable to sort of speak in that moment.
And I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but I'm so curious to know you've had many years to think about it back in.
If that was to happen to you now in that situation.
Have you thought how you would respond to that?
Yeah, I mean, I would respond very differently today.
I don't care who it was or how powerful they were.
You know, it is my responsibility as an individual to to have a conversation with that person about that line.
I would say that I would prefer to call them in about it rather than call them out.
But I absolutely know now that I wouldn't walk past that.
And in a lot of ways, not trying to jump forward too much because this is this process of kind of coming to this understanding of your own culpability within racism has been one that's that I've learned about through many years.
And in some ways, this experience and my failing of my colleagues has been how I've been able to probably hear more about the subject and connect with people on a deeper level around it.
It's driven me that failure in a lot of ways.
And and I think that the problem with staying silent and not saying anything is greater than the impacts on those who you should be standing up for.
It it affects the individual a great deal, too, because you get stuck with that guilt.
So the reason why I wrote this chapter on racism was not just to say, if you're racist, feel terrible.
It's more about always putting an example of my own shortcomings first.
And and so I don't really think that I have any place talking about racism unless I admit my own culpability in that conversation.
And so this is why I use the story of Prince Philip to show how I failed and failed my colleagues, but also how I improved and how it is upon all of us to especially white people, almost exclusively white people.
To take this on, you know, and this is something that nobody really wants to talk about.
Nobody really wants to admit.
But most of us have, you know, an extended member of the family who has a racist attitude or has some form of bigotry that they believe.
And a lot of us will sort of sit back and say, well, that's just, you know, Uncle Frank or whoever it might be.
You know, it's just the way they are.
But I would implore the people who are listening is that it actually is a responsibility to have a conversation with that Uncle Frank and just go, you know, kindly.
I would say, you know, what's your line of thinking when you talk like that?
You know, what motivates you to say such a thing about a person as if they were a subhuman and sort of try to invite them to reflect upon what they're putting out there rather than sort of.
Shouting at them, which is much easier thing to do, to get really, really, really angry about it and to and to shut it down in that way.
But I think, you know, for me, at least, the problem with that approach, with the anger approach, you know, you know, angry about the things I see, of course.
But I also understand that my anger is a privilege of being white as well, you know.
And what I would prefer to do is to have a conversation with the person because I know what happens when we push people to the outside.
They find other like -minded individuals and their belief systems become more entrenched and harder to stop.
We see this time and time again in a variety of ways in society, not only with racism, but in many, many backwards views.
It's a really good reminder because it is so tempting in those situations if someone says something racist to explain to them why they're wrong and to, you know, maybe punish them or yell at them and sort of enter into this sort of debate of these two sides.
Whereas what you're suggesting, which I think is like a really like it's such a great thing to remember in those situations, is to actually be curious and ask questions and try and understand why they've just said what they've said and where that belief maybe comes from.
I think that that does probably lead to a much more helpful conversation.
Yeah, just sort of asking them to see the human and why anybody would think that about another human being.
It's devastating, you know, but I think yeah, just trying to hold the mirror up in a way that's maybe a little bit less confrontational and a little more reflective.
You know, I believe in the goodness of humans, you know, and I'd like to think that we all have the chance to be better and that we're never really too far gone.
You know, I really believe that.
That you're showing that person the humanity that they're denying the person or the race that they're having a go at.
So you're actually displaying an example of how you can show humanity in that situation.
Yeah, I've got to be honest.
I've been showing that kind of humanity, not on the subject particularly, but on on different subjects when I've done the wrong thing time and time and time again, you know, and in that, you know, those kind people.
They allowed me to retain my own dignity and reflect upon my behaviours in a way that was actually long term beneficial to me and also potentially to that relationship.
It feeds perfectly into a question I've been wanting to ask because I, I'll share a story, if you don't mind.
When my wife and I lived in Bangladesh for a year, when we were a lot younger, I have this memory of being in a car and it wasn't, this was more about, because what you're talking about before was certainly racism, but I think there's also power in there as well.
And this was purely a power play, not racist.
But rich Bangladeshi guys had invited us out to dinner, we went to dinner, and on the way home, this guy was a bit drunk and he had a driver and the driver took a wrong turn.
And he reacted, this guy would have been about 40, 45, so far in the backseat and he reacted with some of the most appalling behaviour I've ever seen.
The driver took a wrong turn and he grabbed the driver by the ear and pulled his ear as hard as he could and hit his head against the steering wheel and started yelling at him and screaming at him.
And I tried to stop him a little bit, but I could have done more and it sort of diffused the situation temporarily.
But then I sat in silence in the back of the car and didn't say anything to say to this guy what the hell are you doing?
Like, or call it out or call it in or anything.
In shock and appalled.
And I'm feeling at the moment a sense of guilt and shame over not actively thinking about that incident more throughout my life and motivating it to allow me to change or improve my behaviour the way you have spoken about so beautifully.
The question I have off the back of that story is that how do you move from a position of being silent and being regretful, which can often come with guilt and shame, which can often render people unable to act or change.
How do you move from guilt and shame into a position of, okay, I'm going to do something about this and it's going to change the person I am?
It's a great question.
Thanks for sharing that awful story.
That's a devastating thing to happen to that person and horrible to witness.
For me, I think, you know, I will always own that moment.
You know, that's not going anywhere and I can write about it and I can talk about it here, but it's unforgivable.
And but it but I won't let it define me because it's my responsibility to change, you know, and to change coming from that moment is to actually take a leap of faith and to admit my fears and to confront them and to.
to take a risk and to be a little bit more fearless, to learn to confront it rather than to shy away from it.
And I think that sort of journey or mentality is challenging initially because you make mistakes and you don't get the outcomes that you want to and I'm certainly not coming from a perfect place on any of this.
I'm just sort of trying to admit my own culpability in any given situation and understand that I as an individual have a role to play and that begins though with ending this feeling of being stuck and powerless and it starts with being vulnerable and taking a chance the next opportunity that presents
itself. And I can think of examples where I did better and I've since talked to individuals involved and it was a big moment for them and so maybe it was a moment of fear when I confronted another situation a little more head on and defended somebody and look just to be absolutely clear racism is never
okay, there's just no time, there's no example where it's justifiable or okay in our society and there's never been a time that it was okay but that it's certainly not okay in 2024.
So I'm making zero excuses but what I'm saying is if I allowed my fears to control me and the next time and for sure there will be a time in all of our lives when I was faced with a similar situation, if I let that one go, well that's willful and that's willful damage to another human and I think we're
better than that. I know I'm better than that so we have to take up the opportunity to get over ourselves because our experience or my experience as a white person is different than the experience of my friends of color or colleagues.
It's just different and I'm paying attention, I'm listening, I'm trying to learn, I'm watching and so I see the ways in which their lives are different and that's brutal to see but I have to take responsibility for that because it's not the other way around, it's not happening to me.
Just calling it in, calling it out, do you mind just like I said I get it but for people who of course you don't know the difference, what is, can you explain calling it in, calling it out?
So I would say that neither is right or completely wrong but I would say that my belief and my experience is when we call people out in an angry way, we entrench their thoughts, their wrong thoughts deeper and because it becomes an attack on them and so they are defensive and they're like you know what,
I'm not taking this from you, I'm right, you're wrong and so by calling somebody in what I'm saying is to have a reasoned and principled conversation about what the person said or how they're thinking.
That's the more curiosity.
It's the curiosity but it's allowing them to reflect upon their behavior and it's actually allowing them the dignity to change their attitude and so if you call them out you don't give them that chance and I'm sure that there's gonna be people listening, that's an out rage, it's an outrage, we should be
absolutely furious about this.
I'm not saying don't be furious but I'm saying think about how you could actually change that person's mindset rather than just pushing them to the edge where they will not change that mindset and that is my responsibility as a human to take that responsibility on and to have that reasoned and sensible
conversation about it.
That's also empathy because the person that has a backwards thought or a negative mindset is in a bad place, they're in a place of hate and anger and there's something going on there so how about we have a conversation about it rather than just yell at them and push them to the side.
So just a quick story to maybe give a, that's a great answer, I love the answer.
I've been through a similar type thing since 2020 which I've never shared with you guys but it's a moment that I just wish I had back so much and regret so much and was silent through this podcast, through having Rana Hussain on it gave me some inspiration on how to work through it.
So 2020 I was doing one of my speaking tours and I was in Newcastle and this is right during COVID and I was on stage, I started feeling really sick while I was on stage but just because I was exhausted from touring I just didn't think COVID and then the next morning I woke up and went I'm really bad
here so I was going down to the pharmacist to try and get like a test feeling really bad so I'm already making excuses, the COVID things are relevant but I'm just trying to make excuses for myself but I heard a bit of a kerfuffle happening like outside a house and it was on the main street in Newcastle
where there's residential houses and there was a couple arguing having a really hated argument and then she opened the door and put her hand out and said were you not coming in and he said yes I am and no one else I looked around no one was really watching and she's trying to close the door and not let
him in and she says you're not coming in that did look very familiar like it seemed like they were like they definitely knew each other very well and then he said this is fucking ridiculous went in to sort this out and then he sort of pushed her back into the house and he went in and closed the door behind
him and I was looking around going has anyone else seen that was that just me and no one else said a few people would walk straight past walked around them but I was the only one who'd sort of stopped and watched the whole thing and I didn't I just can't I didn't do anything I just watched I was like
that is really bad I think they're just having a headed out there a couple of minute and I made all those excuses for that was probably okay well it was probably fine and in my head and my chances are this just a head argument from a couple I feel terrible I'm just gonna get this cover thing and just
go to the hotel and then the whole time we just call the police like just call the police and like that's and then just wait until the police get here and check that everything's fine I didn't do it I went to the hotel and just slept for the rest of the day and I felt there's two thousand twenty I felt
so bad about it ever since we're in Newcastle for our live show earlier this year and we walk past the same place I was about to tell the story of it but I just felt so ashamed of it I didn't even say didn't tell you guys anyway I think about it a lot and I think about what happened and why about what happened
but I was checking the news like I was on the like always on like googling like Newcastle domestic file so I just for like a good few months afterwards anyway I've always been thinking like well the next time that happens I am going to I'm going to be so good in that situation I will never make that mistake
again and I've been looking at that exact scenario going when I say a man being physically like dominating a woman or being intimidating I'm going to step in absolutely and I've been waiting for that moment to sort of to try and help me move past the shame I felt for that incident we had Rhina has saying
on she told a story about how she was standing at like a really busy train station and there were a group of young men who were really boisterous around who started to get worried and she looked around feeling very isolated and very alone and comedian Dave Thornton was there and he and he gave her like
a really supportive smile and not as if say I'm here like you're okay and as she said I thought God that's it I'm not why am I looking for these really big moments it's small moments like there are little moments where you can look out for someone who is feeling it doesn't have to be the exact same
issue but I was on a flight a couple of months ago and a lady I was in the same aisle as a lady I was on the window window seat she was right down the other she was on the same aisle but on the window seat the other side so we're six seats apart and she got up to get something out of the overhead thing
just we took off and her bag wasn't it was just a light bag fell out and landed on a guy's head and he and he he goes for fuck's sake like really loud and just shook his head and said I'm so sorry and he goes fucking hell like really like did you look at it you keep shaking his head and she went to
like put her head around his arm really sorry and he put his hand up in her face and said fuck off like that I was like oh this is like this is near his desk came straight down the girl was really visibly shaken up I was like well this is my this is where I have to this is where I show her that I saw
it's not okay but the plane was taken if I couldn't get up and she's right down the other side looking quite shaken up and so I'm literally leaning as far forward as I can this massive smile on my face looking at her I look at her for so long and eventually I think she's like I think someone's looking
at me and she very slowly turned her head to see what was someone was looking at I think she's feeling very embarrassed as it was and very shaken and then there's made some silly smile just like looking at I was trying to like nod and I was like well how do I do this face here but the second we might eye
contact and I was like smiling and like nodding her she got so teary I was like well that's that's what random was talking about it's like looking out for little it doesn't have to be a big redemption moment where you make it about you and this is where I made up for the error that I made by not it's
just like continually looking out for other people who might feel a little alone in that moment for whatever reason and I learned that from Rana and I need to let Rana know that but it was it was quite impactful I love that yeah I know and I think there'll be people listening who probably who he may be
thinking about these stories in particularly the story with this incredibly powerful person of such immense power and privilege that it's unimaginable who just unfortunately happened to have the brain the size of a pea that that will how could you possibly confronted him in that moment it's not even
really about me confronting that person or even though I could of but it was certainly about going to the victims of his racism after it yeah yeah and just doing what you said you know that's probably a big part of it isn't it like you the thought of taking on someone that in that moment like you're
not gonna be able to they'll take him away and just you're never gonna win that but you can you can absolutely show love and support to and the connection you probably get from that would be would be huge I know I would have been sacked on the spot it didn't matter though really you know like it shouldn't
have mattered the thing that is very clear with you Ben and since becoming friends with you the things the thing that has become very apparent and the thing that I really really respect in you is that while you have high expectations of people which are high income compared to what most people's expectations
are people however they should be normal that they should just be the expectations of people that's you just expect people not to be dicks no and please don't celebrate me for any of this no no no no no but I think the I think the flip side of that there's there's that element of it but then also you
you really care about the people in your life and make a real effort which is so obvious to me and I'm sure everyone you make a real effort to kind of show people that you love that you do love them and I just wonder whether that's always been in your life thank you that's so lovely and profoundly felt
and yes that is that is my intention and that is how I go you know and if you're friends with me then you know I will express my love for you and tell you that I love you and and we don't you know have enough time on this planet to not say that and to not make people feel that way you know and and that you
know whenever I receive that kind of love and I receive that love and return from you and from you and from you and and I think you know I think that can really grow something again it develops friendships and relationships in more quickly and more meaningfully when you just express care consistently
and love to the people around you you know I grew up in a small town and so I came into the small town a little bit too late you know I came out of primary school into a small town and all of the friendships in the small town had already been solidified and I found it really difficult to make friends
to really join a friendship group both as you know 12 13 year old and then again as an 18 year old in a different town and and I think the lesson for that was feeling like you're alone and that you know that you're not of much value and and and therefore later in life when you have matured and so have those
people that are around you you know you just really want them to know that they matter and maybe that does come from that you know that experience of being a young child and and not having those kinds of friendships perhaps but I think that you know it's just a great thing to be able to make somebody's
day but certainly I do feel like there's a finite time on this planet tomorrow is too far in the future to start being kind you know it's just not like if I go today have I told you that I love you have I told you that I think you're really awesome I hope I have and I hope that's what you remember of me
you know not not not what I've done but now I guess how I made you feel it's it's just sort of occurred to me that unlike many other chefs you've resisted opening other restaurants you've only got you've got add not only you've got Attica but then I'm sure just a little thing it's a little yeah it is a little
thing just a little power business but you say you've got Attica but then like obviously what happens with chefs particularly when they become well known is the there'd be so many offers coming in from new hotels or this place yeah the restaurant chain and the rest port and all that stuff yeah yeah
and that's a great there's nothing wrong with that of course um but I've always found it interesting that you've it's just it's just Attica but the thing that's hearing you talk now the thing that's also sort of I'd never thought about is that how can you care for the people who are there whether they
be like staff or diners how can you care for them all properly like which is important to you if there are 12 restaurants I can't you know and if I had two I would be 50 less care for them you know and they need to know I care on mentioning love and telling people that you love them I've noticed this thing
recently where men in my life friends who I've had for a very long time who would 10 years ago would never have said that we love each other it's starting to happen like I got a message from a mate on Saturday and yeah he was a bit drunk but he's dipping his toes into the water but I know the guy well
and I know this is a big step for him to put those words in a concrete form like a text and it felt great and it felt great to write it back and I've noticed it being said amongst friends a lot more is something happening with male friendships and it's a really lovely thing and I don't know what the question from this is but I
think people like yourself there are many other people out there who are showing a better way of doing it it's a really special time and it's a thing to be a part of and it's um it feels good to say it it does and and I would say that that you should be able to tell a male or a female friend that you
love them and then sometimes I think it's even more awkward to tell a female friend that you love them and just mean it in a platonic way you know and I can think of an example just very recently where I've got this rather stoic friend and she's absolutely brilliant and I know she loves me like deeply
it's a tremendous friendship and then the other day I said to her we had this amazing experience where we went hiking and at the end of it you know I said oh that was just so great love you she looked shocked actually like wheeled right like kind of and I was cool with it because you know I kind of knew
that that would be your action but the next time I saw her she said I love you too and and and so you know it does take a bit of a leap of faith to say that to somebody I think and to not say it in a flippant way but to look at somebody in the eyes and know that they that that you really mean what you're
saying and you know my oldest friend I remember the first time I said it to him Jason you know he's the best dude and it's a deep love and I said I love you and he was also kind of shocked but then like I think the next text you know a few days later was I love you bro you know and and so sometimes
you know it's just upon us to take a bit of a love risk yeah it's sort of like we've sort of grown up thinking like dropping the l word is such a huge moment in a relationship that you kind of reserve it for like the right it's like oh am I ready to say it I'm ready so then when it's then now we're
in a place where we're saying it to our friends it's like this feels crazy like I'm out on the edge here oh yeah Ryan is out on the edge that Ryan says to us I'm in love with you oh wow well I love that is gnarly yeah I felt like I love you it wasn't enough so it's like Hugh I am I'm in love with you
it just felt right Ben I'm in love with you too oh right I'm in love with you too Josh lots of love we'll get there actually that's pretty pathetic I love you Josh yeah I'm in love with you Ben I'm in love with you too okay all right I hope Harley doesn't listen to this Josh I want to sleep with you
it's too far this is now getting fun let's see what happens just play around let's get some drinks the lights down like let's actually just play with this yeah okay but uh so you know seriously Ben is there so with you know you're a very um in in such a good way such a sensitive person and and but is is there
uh has there ever been like a time like obviously like with us it's hopefully very easy to be sensitive and the but has there ever been a time where it's been I don't know like you've been your sensitivity has been challenged or your ability to be sensitive or unfortunately much of my life yeah um when I
entered the kitchen I thought that that was you know I felt like an outsider I've always felt like a bit of a weirdo in all honesty you know and um and when I entered the kitchen I thought this would be home for me but in fact it was sort of a misogynistic bro club you know and so I'd grown up with incredibly
beautiful sensitive father who cried often and expressed himself to his family and was so gentle and nurturing and that's who I wanted to be in part you know I have a bit of my mother's edge as well who's incredibly kind person too and when I came into the kitchen you know that wasn't how you be you
know and so for the largest part of my life have been made to feel like being a sensitive caring man had no value and there was a really strange moment and I'm a little bit reluctant to talk about it in the context of of a broader conversation which we haven't had today but I was in Copenhagen giving
a speech at the height of me too which is a weird thing for a man to do I will admit and a lot of men were reflecting upon their behaviors and looking for a way forward and they all of a sudden turned to me in this situation and I felt sad you know I felt like oh but you never cared before you know
not of course some people cared but but generally you never seemed to care and now that the mirror has been held up to you and your behavior and your wrong way of thinking you're looking at me and so there was just this brief moment which was you know this really unpopular part of me had become all
of a sudden something that was valued I quickly got over myself I should admit because I owed it to women to not sulk about it but to in fact go well you know what my responsibility is to other men you know and and to actually kind of amplify that side of me you know to show people that haven't had
the same childhood as I did or the same benefits that that there is more than one way to be a man you know and and so yeah I've I've I guess I've struggled with that all of my life you know and that's why it's amazing to be to come on to shows like this because it's a safe place you know and and to
have relationships with with other men who you know are open and and and kind and and value that in a person you know it's I mean I'm I've I'm still right it's taking me and I think I've spoken to you a few times about it but it reminds and then maybe this is part of the reason is uh Anthony Bourdain's
book kitchen confidential which talks about that sort of that's sort of early you know for want of a better term like rockstar chef days where it did feel very kind of broey and very like very macho and certainly from what I could tell from reading it not like a sensitive environment no that was an environment
that he writes about in that book with the extreme toxic masculinity yeah and that is unforgivable to me because when I read that book that part of that book I just couldn't find myself and this is the way that we're portraying kitchens and by biting cruelty to women you know and I think the effects
of that book is still being felt on our industry and you know you can't help but believe that that book offered significant justification for appalling behavior from men who were seeking it a bit of an abstract one but how do you define success in life it's probably defined by this conversation by having
loving meaningful relationships where real things happen well you are a successful man uh thank you and so whatever it is that you're doing whether it's running a restaurant or you know having a plumbing business or making a book it don't really matter it's it's always going to be about the joy in the with the people
that you make it with and you know and I will try to bring as many people into those sorts of passions as possible because it just enriches it it expands your mind and and your perspectives but always just trying to go with love you know really trying to go with love and trying to keep the mean side
of me in check you know we all have that that's a that's a thing you know but but but but just in every interaction trying to do the best and knowing that sometimes I won't meet my own expectations of myself and and that's okay but we get another shot just on the topic of the book I can't not mention this it's
just have dinner at your place the other day and Eric Jensen was there a award -winning journalist who helped with the editing of the of the book and he said something which I I honestly can't stop thinking about he said when he was a young boy his dad told him that when the when the mr wippy van was playing
music that meant he was out of ice cream and like oh my god I thought of that so much I just I just had to bring it up because I want everyone else to think about that now for quite some time that's hilarious you ask oh no they're out I reckon that's a clever way of telling a child without telling a child
that I can't afford an ice cream for you Eric is my pen pal and and I we call each other pen pal and we write to each other a couple of times a week sometimes several times a week take the time to write a letter and like literal letters yeah yeah and and about the book no no no no this is separate to
anything any professional relationship that we've got going on you know which is always about writing or cooking um so this is just about sharing one beauty each day and so we select something that find profoundly moving and it could be an a painting it could be a song it might be a story from life
for me it could often be something to do with you know a child you know a child one of my children um and and we write about it you know and sometimes those emails you know about are about something intensely hard but the rule is that there's always a beauty you know do you think do you think um and maybe
this is just inbuilt in anyone who grows up working in kitchens but have you always because you're so so good at acknowledging the people that you work with and the team around you and it's you know you're very reluctant if ever to claim sole responsibility or um praise for anything that you do but is that is that something
you think you've got better at because i think it's very tempting as a creative person particularly when you're younger to want people to think that you're the you're the one who's done it you know it's my restaurant it's my creations and my genius has that always been inbuilt in you or has it professional
cooking is not an individual um uh occupation you know it if you think of the kitchen you'd be better thinking about a professional sports team and so that is really the mentality in a really great kitchen so that that's kind of the culture that i grew up in the one thing that i am totally prepared
to claim solely are our mistakes because it as the owner of the company that the buck stops with me and even if it's been an individual within a team that's made the mistake i will analyze the ways in which i failed that and that individual why we ended up there it was probably more likely or not because we
didn't train them to the level that they needed to be or they weren't supported and so even in that situation i will admit my culpability you know and and i think that's um the responsibility of owners of companies and leaders of teams to take it on the chin absolutely it also reflects how we started
they're taking it on the chin like you and telling the story of your interaction with the with well not interaction you're witnessing prince phillip being appalling you've taken it on the chin and use that as a motivating factor to change and improve yeah and there's i have no excuses for it you know
that there's nothing i can say to to change what happened but i don't have to live like i can't improve as a human you know that that's the main thing that i want people to take away is that we're all on you know some sliding scale good and bad you know well yeah it's beautiful there's a so often we
failures will define us in a negative way but your the way you're and i hope you don't mind me calling it a failure but oh no it's a complete failure yeah the way you're taking a failure to improve yourself is such an incredible lesson such an incredible thing yeah thank you josh yeah it's a beautiful
place to end the book is uses for obsession and we've just got a very very small taste of what it's about but it's a incredible book and there are so many i've found myself at the end of each chapter reflecting on my life and the way i'd respond in similar situations and it's kind of book that i think
just sort of makes you a better person uh with the life lessons that are within it so it is extraordinarily well written and it is so heartfelt and so honest um as are you and you're a beautiful person and it's just been a pleasure to chat to you again ben surey thank you so much i'm so honored thanks
man thanks man the imperfect is hosted and produced by hue van carlandberg ryan sheltin and josh van carlandberg our executive producer is bridget northeast assistant producer fella northeast this episode is edited by george martin sound design and score by nick van carlandberg the imperfect is not a licensed
mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice treatment or assessment the advice given in this episode is general in nature but if you're struggling please see a health care professional or call lifeline on 13 11 14
