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Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally.
And I'm Hari Kundabolu.
It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.
Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.
I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?
Health Stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, everybody.
It's Michelle Williams, host of Checking In on the Black Effect Podcast Network.
You know, we always say new year, new me, but real change starts on the inside.
It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals.
And on my podcast we talk mental health healing, growth and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered.
New year, real you.
Listen to Checking In with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.
So today I am delighted to welcome Chris Bailey back to Before Breakfast.
Chris is a productivity expert and the author of the brand new book, Intentional, How to Finish What You Start.
So Chris, welcome to the show.
Laura, how are you doing?
I'm good.
I'm glad to have you back.
Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
For anyone who's a new listener and wasn't here a year and a half ago,
Well, I have a beard, live in Canada, and I like productivity.
Some people have normal interests, but I think people like us Laura, we're just weird in the way that we try to optimize the different components of our day.
And so that's what I'm obsessed by.
And so it's that curiosity that drives me into writing books on the topic, giving talks on the topic.
So I guess in a nutshell, I'm an author on productivity.
I've written...
Three books.
Now this is number four.
I'm so excited to get out into the world.
Yeah.
Well, what drew you to the topic of finishing?
Oh, yes.
Well, it's really the fascination that I have with becoming more intentional.
And so we all know this, right?
The intention is a beautiful idea, but we don't always finish what we start.
But there are the times that we do then.
And so what separates the times that we do finish what we begin from the times that we don't?
And so this idea of it, like when we finish what we start, there was always an intention behind what we're doing.
But just because we set an intention to do something doesn't mean that we'll actually follow through with that thing.
So it's this idea of follow through and that idea of intentionality.
It really like.
For the last 10 years or so, I've really fundamentally believed that it's intentionality that lives at the core of productivity.
But then again, the idea of that is quite beautiful.
But when the rubber meets the road on a daily basis, we have to actually be able to follow through with those things.
And so it was almost the disconnect between why do we not always follow through with the intentions that we set?
Observing that.
That really got me curious about the research and what strings we can pull on behind the scenes in order to overcome that.
The mental resistance we have, the procrastination we have, the fact that some things feel meaningless, all that good stuff that's in the book.
Yeah well, as I say, I mean, it seems like it's probably a mix between sort of these mental factors, like how motivated we are by our various intentions, and then just the sheer practical matters of time management, the sort of things I talk about, that people you know believe they're going to have five hours a day to do something, and they just aren't in their current lives.
And so, whatever they're going to do, they're not going to finish it because they haven't allocated the time in their lives to do so.
So I'm curious what are the factors that lead to somebody finishing or not finishing on an intention?
Ooh, I like that you touched on motivation off the start of the question, because motivation is something that has always felt nebulous to me.
And values are another tangential topic to that.
That's always... felt nebulous to me.
When I think of defining our values, I think of those cheesy corporate exercises that I've had to do in working corporate jobs, where some person comes in and says circle a bunch of words on a page that describe who you are.
And there's words like humor and grace and things like that.
But there's not really any research behind that.
But there is, it turns out, on human values.
And values, they're essentially the motivational core of who we are.
It's this whole essentially goldmine of scientific research on what motivates us on a deep and fundamental level.
From a broad perspective, there's 12 main values.
We all share them, but in different amounts.
Some of us value self-direction, going our own way with questions. creativity, productivity.
I'd imagine a lot of Before Breakfast listeners are in that boat.
Others of us value tradition.
Some people value power and face and humility and universalism, which is loving and respecting the nature and other people.
There's benevolence, there's stimulation, which is the excitement, the novelty that we can experience in the moment.
The list goes on, there's 12 of them.
And so we all have these in different amounts.
And every task that we have to do is connected to one or more of these values.
So if you have to write some boring, thing, some handbook project or something at work.
This is an example I keep coming back to, because this was I have vivid memories of having to write one when I worked at Alcatel-Lucent, a telecom company here in Ottawa.
And it was so aversive because I felt like it was something that I had to do.
You know, it kind of mapped with the value of conformity almost, because it was just something that I needed to do and not really connect with.
I didn't really connect with it, But I happen to value benevolence highly, which is helping and serving other people.
And so when I reframed it to mentor new employees through the handbook project for myself, it was the same task.
It was just the way that I approached the thing was far, far more motivating.
And so you're exactly right that there are those multiple levels of motivation and follow through that we need to focus on.
That's kind of the broad level of how...
What does our relationship with the things that we have to get done look like?
And then there's the day-to-day, which is of course, fun to chat about too, but I've gone on for long enough.
Well, here's an interesting thing about, you know, how a value might affect how you behave.
You tell an interesting story in the book of having trained for a marathon.
I mean, not just like half-heartedly, like having gone through like four-hour training runs, right?
And then elected not to run it like just you know, and didn't feel like this was a disconnect, like that.
You actually felt like you had done the part, you cared about.
So maybe you could talk about that.
Yeah.
Well, does that story bother you, by the way?
I need to ask.
Um, well, I mean, not in a particular sense.
I mean, you can live your own life Chris, but I've signed up for plenty of races that I haven't run.
It's usually more than I don't want to run in the moment because it's like raining on that day or something like that.
I mean, I, I know if I personally can run that amount of, so, you know, I've done it before.
So I guess it doesn't, I don't need to show anyone that I can do it.
Oh, so you're kind of like me in this regard.
So one of the values and I didn't mention it, even though it's a pretty common value overall and probably especially for listeners of this podcast.
I know it's high for the readers of my website.
One of the Values is achievement, accomplishing things.
And so if you love achieving things, you shouldn't feel guilty about that, by the way.
So that's an important thing, just as if you value tradition and you want to live a traditional life or conformity, and you want to work a nine-to-five whatever it is, don't feel guilty about your values.
They're fundamental human things.
And so there was a story that I shared in the book where I was training for a marathon way back when over two decades ago, which really hurts to say it at this point in my life Laura,
But I essentially got to the point where I was running for hours on the treadmill in the basement because it was wintertime at the time.
And I just kind of thought, okay, I could run the marathon now.
And so I stopped training entirely.
And I know it's so fascinating how the way that we look at the world and interpret the world is informed through the lens of what we value.
Because somebody whose highest value is achievement.
They might look at that story and think what is wrong?
Wrong with this guy.
Like he was so close.
All he needed to do was wait until summertime and keep up, like a just a basic maintenance schedule, with his running.
But honestly, my highest value is self-direction, going my own way.
And so, once I could see that I had been, you know that it was a meaningful experience, that I could do it.
I went my own way and got to the.
I was happy.
I was fulfilled.
Achievement is kind of a middling value.
It's not super low for me.
It's not super high for me.
It's kind of in the middle.
I'm not really driven to achieve things for the sake of having achieved them.
And so when I...
When I think back I think oh, like that was a really meaningful thing that I did training for that marathon.
But it wouldn't be meaningful for somebody else who values something like achievement, which I find it just fascinating.
So values, there are motivational core values.
But they're also the broader principles that we strive for in our lives.
And so it's fascinating.
They motivate us.
They create meaning for us.
And there's that deep, deep research behind them, which is really what you want to see when you apply tactics for a topic like that.
Absolutely.
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and I'll be back with more from Chris Bailey.
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Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally.
And I'm Harry Kondabolu.
It's a new year and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health, which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know and how messy it can all be.
I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed?
We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight.
You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that.
We break down the topics you want to know more about.
Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.
We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind inside and out healthy.
We human beings, all we want is connection.
We just want to connect with each other.
Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Ed Zitron of the Better Offline Podcast to dig into the latest and weirdest gadgets, gizmos and horrible AI gear that the tech industry is desperate to sell you all while covering the biggest stories in Silicon Valley as the AI bubble threatens to burst.
I'll be joined by David Roth, Chloe Radcliffe, Adam Conover, Cory Doctorow, Ed Ongueso, Jr Robert Evans and an incredible cast of the greatest talent in the tech media, with over 18 hours of interviews, commentary and bizarre stories, all told from the Better Offline pop-up studio connected to its own open bar.
Today I did five hours of back-to-back panels on artificial intelligence.
It included a number of great moments, including an entire room full of people laughing about people losing their jobs due to artificial intelligence.
Will we make it out alive?
There's only one way to find out.
Tune in starting January 6th through January 10th 2026 and listen to the literal best tech podcast ever recorded.
Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you happen to get your podcasts.
I am back with Chris Bailey, author of the brand new book Intentional How to Finish What You Start.
So what we mentioned earlier, that sheer practicality of how much time you have available is going to play into whether you finish what you start if you've allocated enough time for this.
And you mentioned that people generally only have about four focused hours a day.
How does this affect what we can take on and reasonably finish?
Yeah, well, this is a great frustration of mine, how limited our capacity for daily focus is.
And we all know this to some level, to some extent.
Where one of the worst things that you can do for your productivity is trying to focus on things all day long, because you get to the point where you're rereading the same email for the seventh time and it's just some simple thing that you need to respond to.
And what you really need in that moment is just to go for a walk.
It's kind of like what you say, Laura.
I'm going to butcher this, by the way.
But you say something along the lines of like if you don't take a break yourself, your brain will take one for you.
Is that close?
That's pretty close.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something like that.
Yes.
It's a loose approximation of one of these great things that you say.
And the research on our daily capacity for focus is a bit frustrating actually, because it does show that we have four, four and a half hours give or take a little bit.
It depends how naturally motivating we find our work.
So if we're doing something that feels effortless to us, We won't have a problem regulating our attention to refocus on that thing continuously.
But when we have to regulate our attention to focus on something, we do have that upper limit of about four hours.
And so if you're mapping out your day and defining your daily intentions, for an example, really...
Think and reflect on how much focused work you have to do that day.
You know, there's some meetings that we can kind of zone off in sometimes.
There's admin work that doesn't require our full attentional capacity.
But when it comes to the real focused work...
We do have that natural limit.
And so this is, I think, something else that's critical to keep in mind that we have a natural capacity for being able to follow through on the things that require some mental energy and attention.
And so really work within those limits or else you'll be fighting against them.
And so there are these ways make your work more naturally motivating by aligning it with your values, when you don't have autonomy.
There are take on projects that fire you up because you'll be able to be productive on them for longer.
And this is the pithy old saying find a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life.
It's true though, in the research, because you have to regulate your attention to focus on caring about it less often.
And so you actually go further with the things that you love.
And so there's a lot of tangential strategies in there too.
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to how you plan out your goals.
And I know you mentioned that achieving goals is 80% action and 20% planning.
I don't know.
I might even put the planning higher, because I think that is why a lot of people don't achieve.
What they're going to do is they haven't thought through the constituent steps.
They haven't thought through how long those steps will take.
And they also haven't thought through how you know doable those goals feel to them in terms of.
I mean, I think you have a quote that the less you want to do something, the shorter your process goals duration should be.
So that you know if you keep something to five minutes a day it feels like nothing, but you do five minutes a day over and over again.
It does add up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the thing that I think people get really wrong with goal attainment is they get the ratio of planning to action wrong, like you're getting at.
People, I think, have this idea where a goal is 95% acting towards it.
And it makes sense, that bias, right?
Because you think how else am I going to achieve a goal but to just put one foot in front of the other?
But if you're not even walking in the right direction, it doesn't matter how many feet you put after One another.
And this is another thing that I find fascinating about this idea of becoming more intentional where, like you were saying, you know we have these shorter term goals, we have these longer term goals, we have these values which are essentially our ultimate intentions in our life.
They're what we strive to get out of a life.
And it's fascinating.
One of the things when you look at the research, there's a lot of different, disparate parts of intentionality, right?
We have our momentary intentions right now, listening to this podcast or us chatting on the podcast.
We have the plans that this are a part of.
We have the goals that are broader than that.
We have the priorities that are broader than that.
We have the values that that are broader than that too, each taking place over an increasingly long time span.
And so in the book I introduced this idea that I've come to really rely on in my own life in planning out my goals and planning out my plans and stuff, called the intention stack, where It's essentially all those layers of intentionality stacked on top of one another, right?
Present moment to the plans, to the goals, to the priorities, to the values that we all have.
These are all just different words, different containers for this idea of becoming intentional.
The difference is the timeframe and how these different layers of intentionality in our life can work together.
It's quite beautiful in a way.
So Chris, with all those, do you have any intentions or goals for the new year?
I mean, this is airing at the beginning of a new year.
So it's a topic that's on many people's mind.
Yes, I really want –.
Something I find, and you might find this too, is I look back on the other books that I've put out and I think about the publicity cycle and stuff for them.
And one thing that bugs me a little bit looking back –
I wasn't really present enough to enjoy it a lot of the time.
In the past, what I've done is I've made a list of like, okay, I want to get these points across.
I want to get these points across.
Talking points, in other words.
But looking at this book, I really just want to be present in the conversation.
There's no notes in front of me, Laura.
There's no notes in front of me.
I don't even have the list of values.
I probably should.
I probably should have that one so I don't drop like a big one.
But really just being present in what I'm doing in the new year, especially when things get hectic, when speaking picks up with the book, when the media picks up with the book I really want to be there to enjoy it.
Because I personally this one feels special to me in a way where it's kind of been incubating these things for 10 years or so.
And so it just feels like almost therapeutic to me. out there into the world.
So yeah, just being present in all of that, I think.
All right.
Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and I'll be back with more from Chris Bailey.
We'll see you next time.
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Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally.
And I'm Harry Kondabolu.
It's a new year and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health, which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know and how messy it can all be.
I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed?
We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight.
You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that.
We break down the topics you want to know more about.
Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.
We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind inside and out healthy.
We human beings, all we want is connection.
We just want to connect with each other.
Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Thank you going to dig into the latest and weirdest gadgets, gizmos and horrible AI gear that the tech industry is desperate to sell you all while covering the biggest stories in Silicon Valley as the AI bubble threatens to burst.
I'll be joined by David Roth, Chloe Radcliffe, Adam Conover, Cory Doctorow, Ed Ongueso, Jr Robert Evans and an incredible cast of the greatest talent in the tech media, with over 18 hours of interviews, commentary and bizarre stories, all told from the Better Offline pop-up studio connected to its own open bar.
Today I did five hours of back-to-back panels on artificial intelligence.
It included a number of great moments, including an entire room full of people laughing about people losing their jobs due to artificial intelligence.
Will we make it out alive?
There's only one way to find out.
Tune in starting January 6th through January 10th 2026 and listen to the literal best tech podcast ever recorded.
Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you happen to get your podcasts.
I am back talking with Chris Bailey, author of the brand new book Intentional How to Finish What You Start.
So, Chris, one of the intentions many people set is to develop a good morning routine.
We are here on Before Breakfast.
However, you've mentioned that your attempts to develop sort of an elaborate morning routine over the years have not really worked, because you're not a morning person.
I mean, so it's sort of coming to grips with our intentions and goals need to fit with reality.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the thing you know.
In the book I call it sepia tone goals because there are some goals we love the idea of.
Well, waking up early is a really good one for me, a good example for me, because I love the idea of being a morning person, Laura.
I love the idea of waking up at five or whatever and getting the morning paper off the doorstep and getting a nice coffee or a cup of tea, going and meditating and going for a run.
But when it actually comes time to implement a change like this into my life, I realized that I hate rituals like this.
I'd much rather sleep in and slumber out of bed and then grab the paper off the doorstep.
And so it's this idea of sepia tone goals that I've really come to think of these, as where often we love the idea of a change, but we really don't want the practical implications of that change.
This is – there's a great quote.
I think it's from Anne Lamott where she wrote that how we spend our days is how we spend our lives.
I think I have the person right there.
Anne Lamott or Mary Oliver, one of the two.
Flip a coin.
But the idea is we have these ideas of a lot of these grand changes that we want to make to our life.
But we don't think about the day-to-day.
You know we want to write a book, but what does it actually look like on a daily or a weekly basis to write that book?
We want to run a marathon, but what does it actually look like on a daily and weekly basis?
And so it goes back to that idea of the intention stack where a goal, it should be connected with what we value, because that'll be the motivational propellant that we need.
And similarly, it should be connected with the broader priorities in our life that we can observe.
But it also needs to connect with the plans that we have and the daily actions that we take.
Because if it's not, God, help us in achieving the goal.
We need to think through all of the different layers of intentionality so that something isn't just some idea fantasy, sepia tone montage that we wish to have and make in our life.
It becomes this tangible.
A goal should really be a tangible representation of a change, of a journey, of a story, that we're going to go on with our life.
And so I think that's so critical to keep in mind.
Got it.
All right.
Well Chris, I always ask my guests on this show, and I've asked you this before, so then you'll have to come up with a new one.
You may not remember what we said last time.
What is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
Oh, I have one that's more recent.
So my daily not daily daily is being generous, but you have that great rule three times a week is a habit.
That's what I do with the gym.
Three times a week, I have a gym habit.
And one thing that I've done recently is I switched gyms because one of the values, one of the 12 values, is called hedonism.
And some people have sultry connotations, but it's just pleasure.
It's just sense pleasure.
And so one thing I've started to do, because I wasn't enjoying the gym to the extent that I could have or should have, is I started to treat the gym like a spa.
So I go there and I make sure I have a bit more time.
I'll make sure I have a time for the shower after.
I switch gyms so they have fancier shampoo and stuff.
It's more luxurious.
It's only $20 more a month.
And I go more.
I go more often because it's so... pleasurable.
It's so luxurious.
It's $80 Canadian a month, which is probably like 55 US.
So it's not crazy either, but it's very nice.
So treating the things that I'm struggling with kind of like a spa is a weird tactic.
But that frame for me where it becomes more about the hedonistic side of the experience, it negates a lot of the aversion that I have around.
So the gym, Treating the gym like a spa.
If you're struggling with the gym routine, treat it like a spa.
By God, you're going to love it.
Yeah.
Well, especially if you're only going three times a week.
I mean that could be the other thing too, because not aiming for more than that might be the key to making it still enjoyable, or at least something you can tolerate in your life.
So, Chris, what are you looking forward to right now?
Well, besides the book coming out, I feel I've plugged it enough, though.
I'm actually really looking forward to releasing this book out into the world.
We're filming it a little bit before... I hate that I'm ending this on a plug.
I don't love plugging stuff, actually, but...
As a Canadian, you know, but I'm so excited to share these ideas with the world and to see that people connect with these values, especially because they're like what motivate us at a time.
Even if you don't buy the book.
Think about how the values that we've been chatting about today, how they influence your goals, your level of motivation, your level of meaning in your day.
I'm so excited to just shout from the mountaintop about these 12 values because I think they're going to help a lot of people out and see their motivations and the motivations of other people actually differently as well.
So that's what I'm hoping for.
Excellent.
Where can people find you?
Oh, here in my office in Canada, chrisbailey.com.
I was going to say, well, people who can't go visit your office, where can they find you?
If you're in Ottawa, come on by.
You got to find the place, I guess.
Yeah, chrisbailey.com for my newsletter.
And the book is called Intentional, How to Finish What You Start.
Excellent.
Well, everyone, Chris, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening.
If you have feedback on this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura, at lauravandercamcom.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeart Media.
For more podcasts from iHeart Media, please visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally.
And I'm Hari Kundabolu.
It's a new year and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.
Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.
I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed?
Health Stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, everybody.
It's Michelle Williams, host of Checking In on the Black Effect Podcast Network.
You know, we always say new year, new me, but real change starts on the inside.
It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals.
And on my podcast we talk mental health healing, growth and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered.
New year, real you.
Listen to Checking In with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Are you desperately hoping for change in 2026, but feeling stuck?
I'm Dr Laurie Santos and in a new year series of my show, The Happiness Lab, I'm going to look at the science of getting well unstuck.
Unstuck at work, unstuck in your relationships, and even unstuck inside your mind.
I am the absolute worst culprit when it comes to getting into these ruminative loops and just driving myself crazy.
Listen to The Happiness Lab on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Guaranteed human.
