Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbinspodcast.
A couple weeksago, I heard a professor from NYU say that you and I are going to spend 20 years of our life on ourphone, 20years.
And when I heard him saythat, it scared the hell out ofme.
And I wanted to figure out what I could do to change that because I don't want 20 years to go by and I have just wasted it scrolling on socialmedia.
So I reached out toDr.K, who is a Harvard trainedpsychiatrist.
He has a massive following on YouTube and also onTwitch.
He is hopped on a plane and he is here today in our Boston studios to talk to you about how technology is changing yourbrain, your relationships and youridentity.
And the factis, technology is not goinganywhere.
So it's not a matter of getting rid oftechnology.
That's just not evenrealistic.
It's about you understanding why you need to get control of your relationship with it and what to do aboutit.
And I track downDr. K because I read his new book and it has changed my relationship withtechnology.
It has changed my habits with myphone.
It's changed how I talk to my kids and my loved ones aboutit.
And I absolutely cannot wait for him to open your mind and open your eyes to the reality of what is happening when you useit.
Today, you're going to learn all about what technology is doing to yourbrain.
How your technology used particularly in the morning is trashing your dopaminelevels.
You'll learn about the shocking impact that looking at your phone has on your attentionspan.
You'll also learn how to tell whether or not you truly have a problem withtechnology, whether it's socialmedia, yourphone,gaming.
You'll also understand why you don't want to do anything after spending time binging socialmedia.
He has tips for increasing your attentionspan, how to maximizedopamine.
He's also going to give you the exact scripts that you can use when you want to talk to somebody you love whose use of the phone or video gaming is concerningyou.
And these are scripts that actually work so that theylisten.
I am so excited to be able to share this episode with you because I know it's going to change yourlife.
It's going to change how you think about this very importanttopic, but it's also going to be a resource that you're going to want to share with everyone that you know andlove.
Alrighty, let's jump into this withDr.
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I am so glad you're here with metoday.
It is always such an honor to spend some time together and I really want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that will help you create a betterlife.
Imean, I just think it's really cool that you're taking time for yourself and I just love spending that time withyou.
If you are a brand new listener to the Mel Robbinspodcast, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcastfamily.
I'm MelRobbins. I'm on a mission to empower and inspire you with resources that will help you create a more meaningfullife.
I am so thrilled to be able to introduce you to the one and onlyDr.
AlokKenogia. He also is known by millions of people online asDr.
K.Dr. K is a Harvard trained psychiatrist specializing in modern mental health and the impact that technology is having on yourbrain.
NowDr. K has a really impressive and diverse skillset, which was why I was so excited when hesaid,yes, I will come to BostonMel.
Let's dothis. First ofall, he did his medical and psychiatric training at Harvard here inBoston.
He has been studying integrative health for over 20years.
He was a researcher at Oshur Research Center at the Harvard Medical School in Tufts and he has designed resilience programs for mass generalbrigham.
He is also the co-founder of HealthyGamer, which is a huge mental health platform and training company with over 175 employees dedicated to helping people overcome addictions to technology and they also train clinicians inDr.
K'smethodology. His YouTube channel Healthy Gamer Gigi has over two million followers and he's the author of the brand new bestselling book How to Raise a HealthyGamer.
I cannot wait to digin.Dr.
K, thank you for jumping on aplane.
Thank you for being here inBoston.
I have been dying to talk to you and I cannot wait to dig into allthings.
Brain and neuroscience and gaming and addiction and what tech is doing tous.
But I want to start bysaying, could you tell the person that's listening right now what they might experience in terms of a change in their life if they really take to heart everything you're about to teach ustoday?
So I think the biggest thing that they're going to learn is how to stop letting technology shapeyou.
So technology is shaping all of us whether we like it ornot.
If you're usingtechnology, it is shaping the way that youthink.
It is shaping the way that you perceive theworld.
It is shaping your sense ofidentity.
It is shaping what you want and all without your knowledge orconsent.
And so in order to turn yourself into the person that you want tobe, you have to be aware of how technology is shaping you and counteract thatinfluence.
And then if you wantit, if you want to be thatway, then go forit.
But all of this is happening without our knowledge orawareness.
And so that's what we really need tochange.
Ohmy. Now I'm really likein, it'scrazy.
So there are research studies on something called the attentionmarketplace, which is like people have started to realize that your thoughts in your mind are a commodity to be bought andsold.
So there are likeresearch, there's research on something called neuroeconomics, which is like shaping things like purchasingbehavior, what you want tobuy.
It's not evenadvertising.
It's gone deeper than that because we're doing brain scans and stuff likethat.
And so like people are like literally studying and competing for yourattention.
So all the big platforms are fighting for your attention because the more of your attention theyget, the more money theymake.
The problem is it doesn't matter which platformwins.
The one person who always loses is you because you don't have control of yourattention.
Holycow. I want to try to just extrapolate this for somebody who maybe has never thought about the way that technology is controlling your life and shaping you and your brain and grabbing yourattention.
I think a lot of us are aware that there was a lot of science around the way a retail store is laidout.
Like when you walkin, a lot of stores usefragrance.
There's a lot of ways that things are displayed all in order to get you to stay in the store longer and to get you to be feeling tights to buysomething.
And you're going to show us today how technology and particularly a lot of the big social media platforms are being actively designed to shape and control the way that youthink, to shape and control how much time you're spending on it and to grab your attention because they can sell you something and make money off of the amount of time that you are mindlessly giving to theseplatforms.
Absolutely. And the stories arewild.
Like one thing just pops into my head so people don't realize so there is there are allegations that there's one stock trading app that see it used to be that if you wanted to buy or sell a stock you had to sell it or buy it during like tradinghours.
But now you can buy or sell a stock 24 hours aday.
And what we know about the human brain is the human brain gets fatigued the later on in the day that yougo.
This is why people have trouble with midnight snacking because you run out of willpower at like 11p.m.
midnight 1a.m. And so now what happens is that you can buy stock at like one in the morning when you're not thinkingclearly.
This is the wildthing. So there was allegations that one trading house basically had a strategy of anyone who buys a stock at 1a.m.
We're going to take the opposite side of the bat because people are not thinkingclearly.
And so they made so much money by just taking the opposite side of the bat of anyone who is mentally fatigued and chooses to buystock.
So there's all kinds of stuff going on that people are just not even remotely aware of about technology and how it's shaping us and it'sscary.
Youknow,Dr. K you've already mentioned this big word neuroeconomics.
One of the reasons why I was so excited that you were willing to fly here and spend some time with me today is because your work is this amazing just overlap of neuroscience andpsychiatry.
You also lecture Hartford MedicalSchool.
You have a bigpractice.
You are also looking at the effect of technology on the brain and you have an incredible story for how you became fascinated with this and in helping us take controlback.
Can you tell us a little bit about yourstory?
Yeah.So, youknow, I was born here in the United States and growing up Iwas, I used to play a lot of videogames.
So I didn't realize this until later but I was one yearahead.
So I skipped agrade. And when in my school and in manyschools, youknow, your social status is based on your athleticability.
Yes. I was five year old competing against like six year olds or seven yearolds.
So I was just gettingcrushed.
And so the only way that I could compete with my peers was like through videogames.
So I started playing a lot of videogames, really became a problem in highschool.
I was very addicted to videogames.
And so like played a bunch of games basically failed out of college would play for16,18, 20 hours aday.
So I was on academic probation for after my freshman year for having less than the 2.0GPA.
So basically the best grade I got all semester was a C and I got a couple Ds andFs.
And so my parents tried kind ofeverything.
Theytried, youknow, toughlove.
They tried supportivelove.
But they're both doctors but even backthen, Imean, today we know more but back then games were not nearly as addictive and I was still so addicted and they had no idea what todo.
And most parents don't know what todo.
It's incredibly frustrating forthem.
Like they just don't know how to get their kid tostop.
So and then my dad finally waslike, you got to go toIndia.
And I waslike, forwhat?
And he'slike, you just have togo.
So I went to an ashram or monastery where I spent three months studying yoga and meditation decided at the end of that summer when I was 21 to become amonk.
That ultimately I tried to take myvows.
My teachers wouldn't have me rightaway.
Sowhy? So it's reallyfascinating.
But one of themsaid, youknow, I waslike, I'm ready to give up mylife.
And he'slike, what are you givingup?
You have nothing worth givingup.
So hesaid, he actually turned me down and hesaid, you can come back when you're30, but you need to goback, finish youreducation, get a doctoraldegree.
And then if you still want to take yourvows, you can take your vows when you're 30 yearsold.
In themeantime, they were kindenough.
So I basically visited everysummer, stayed there everysummer, learned like more advanced meditation techniques and things like that for about sevenyears.
And then after about seven years decided to give thatup, my teachers were superwise.
Met mywife. So the whole celibacy thing wasn't going to workout.
Was a struggle for a littlewhile.
But then ultimately decided to become adoctor, a medicaldoctor.
And the big irony there wasthat, youknow, I waspre-med, but I really didn't care aboutit.
And then now I'd sort of decidedthat,okay, I was going to become adoctor.
And that was actually part of my spiritualpractice.
So my teacher had also told me that anything that you do in the material world will be easier than what you have to do in the spiritualrealm.
So set a hightarget. And unless you can meetit, like you're going to failspiritually.
So I waslike,okay,fine.
I really took that toheart.
Ended up going to medicalschool, became apsychiatrist.
And I trained at mass general where I was faculty for a littlewhile.
And then started focusing on technologyaddiction.
So when I was inresidency, I went to some of mymentors.
And theseare, Imean, brilliantpeople, just leaders in the field ofpsychiatry.
And I askedthem,like,hey, what do you all think about techaddiction?
Like video gameaddiction.
This was back in2015. I had my firstconversation.
And that's when I sort of realized they werelike,oh, youknow, like it seems like it's aproblem, but we don't really know too much aboutit.
That's changed a lot in the last 10years.
And that's when it kind of hit me that like most of the leaders offields,right?
So if you look atmedicine, like the chief of psychiatry is going to be in their50s, 60s or70s.
And so it's no shortcoming on theirpart.
They're amazing humans and have studied alot.
But like they just don't know what it's like to play a videogame.
And so I had struggled withthis, started to get interested in itclinically.
And then really started working withgamers.
And then sort of expanded social media and all these other challenges that peopleface.
And really focused oncombining, youknow, I had some great training and people really taught me how to understandneuroscience, a lot of clinical experience andaddiction.
And then combining that withspirituality.
And now what I try to do is help people develop healthy relationships withtechnology.
Well, I think that's really interesting way to look atit.
Because first ofall, we don't understand how much technology is taking control of our brains and ourlives.
And we need to understandthat.
And then the second piece is nobody's going to get rid of itcompletely.
And so we got to understand how to have a healthy relationship withit.
And I absolutely am going to dive deeper into more of the nuances around what to do when somebody is addicted to gaming or socialmedia, how to talk to somebody who is like all of those specificthings.
But I kind of want to stay a little bit more broad because I think it'sfascinating.
The back in2015, you had the insight tosay, tech addiction is athing.
And so I'd becurious,Dr.
K, what exactly istechnology, modern technology doing to ourbrains?
The short answer is alot.
So here's the first thing that we have tounderstand.
So when we look at mostaddictions, we tend to think aboutsubstance.
Usedisorders?Yes. So these are things like alcohol or opiates ormarijuana.
So this is a discrete biologicalchemical, which travels to various parts of the brain and activates usually one kind ofreceptor.
So we have the GAVA receptor foralcohol.
We have opioidreceptors.
And so it's a very targetedeffect.
The thing with technology is if we look at the evolution oftechnology, technology used to activate just one part of ourbrain.
So originally with videogames, you would activate the dopaminergiccircuitry, which is what gives uspleasure.
But then overtime, people are adding more features totechnology.
So Facebook used to be a way to stay in touch withpeople.
But then with the likebutton, you could get some socialvalidation.
It's not just about an advanced form of a contactlist.
Now it's my identity is becomingvirtual.
My profession is becomingvirtual.
My relationships are becomingvirtual.
So like so many other parts of the brain are now beingaffected.
It's basically like a whole brain effect at thispoint.
It affects our sense ofidentity.
It affects our sense ofpleasure.
It regulates ouremotions.
It alters our attentionspan.
It doeseverything. And what people are basicallydiscovering, what developers are discovering is that the more of the brain that I canaffect, the more people will engage withme.
Because now I'm not just activating this onecircuit.
Now you can use technology foreverything.
And your whole brain can get intoit.
Well, I think one takeaway sofar,Dr.
Kay, that's already superhelpful.
Is it even just the reference toFacebook?
When it first launched on thescene, it was a way to stay in touch withpeople.
It waslike, youknow, clearly the Facebook fromcollege.
It was a way to share pictures withpeople, a way to stay connected to your high schoolfriends, to your firstcousins, to your familymembers.
And when you started to tick off all the ways that these platforms are now in ourlife, the like button makes it part of youridentity.
Do people likeme? Do they not likeme?
The number of followers says something aboutyou.
It is a huge part of your professionallife, like being on LinkedIn or on Zoom or if you are an entrepreneur or you're like trying to launch some sort ofbusiness, it becomes a marketingplatform.
Everybody's on these datingapps, which are basically social media networks aswell.
And so our lives have slowly started to become wildlyintertwined.
With thetechnology. And this is why kind of our our knee jerk responses just delete theapp.
Oh, just dothis.Oh, just stop playing thething.
And I think the gene is already out of the bottle onthis.
I think so that's the challenge is that so I think it realized it kind of dawned on me that like technology is kind of like introducing an invasive species in a new environment where there's no natural checks andbalances.
And then the species justexplodes.
And technology is like an invasive species for ourbrain.
So it starts to colonize different parts of ourbrain.
And you'll see this if you've struggled with technology or you know someone who's struggling withtechnology, that's just always literally where their mindgoes.
It's what they think about when they wake up in themorning.
Youknow, the first thing that we do is we pull out ourphone, we browse Reddit or Instagram orwhatever,right?
It's the last thing that we do before we go tobed.
We're thinking about it if we're in theelevator, we're doingit.
If we're sitting in acab, we're doingit.
If we're on thetoilet, we're doingit.
Youknow, so it's really invaded every corner of ourlife.
It's reallyscary. And youknow, I think that is a very interesting point because if you're ever standing in line at any kind ofstore, lookaround.
Everybody is filling that time by looking at theirphone.
And so youknow, you've focused a lot of your earlier career as a psychiatrist on gamingaddiction.
And so what I would be curious about is as a Harvard trainedpsychiatrist, when I look at somebody who is spending hours just filing through videos and surfingonline, they look like they'renumbing.
Is that like athing? It's literally what'shappening.
And it's happening in bothcases.
So one of the basically a lot of studies show that one of the major effects on the brain is the suppression of our amygdala and our limbicsystem.
So these are the negative emotional circuits of thebrain.
So if you kind of think about like if I'm everyone's kind of hung up on dopamine and dopamine'sthere, but I think a lot of the addictive qualities are about pushing the negativityaway.
So when you're scrolling on your short form platform ofchoice, it doesn't matter to talk youto,whatever.
What happens is if you're having a bad day and you startscrolling, like whathappens?
You're having a bad day and you startscrolling.
Like whathappens? You're having arelaxed.
Yeah. Ido.Yeah. So sometimes it can berelaxing.
That's what I would say is actuallygood.
But oftentimes what it does is distract us from thenegativity.
So what happens is it is a relief from youranxiety, but I would not quite call itrelaxing.
It canbe. Sometimes there isa, because I think about relaxation is a positive emotionalthing.
That'strue. So what we really see is a lot of emotionalnumbing.
And then what happens we get stuck in the cycle because when we use technology to suppress ouremotions, our brain does not processemotions.
So if you really like look atit, Imean, some of this is supported inscience.
Some of it is just myconjecture.
But human beings used to have a lot of idle time in ourbrains.
So if you look at like for the majority ofevolution, we did wrotetasks.
We do things like churn butter or like makerope,right?
And if you think aboutthat, like the mind is relativelyfree.
So as I'm going throughout theday, something I get worried aboutsomething, I go hunting with a body ofmine.
I miss myarrow. He hits hisarrow.
I feelinferior. We walk two hours back to camp over the course of thatwalking.
My brain has time toprocess.
Now what's happened is if you look at what goes on with ourattention, we have zero idle time in thebrain.
And the problem is that chances are our brain has evolved to use that idletime.
So weknow, forexample, even like with dreams that the emotional content of dreams has to do with the emotional content of yourlife.
And as we interfere withdreaming, as we have these different medications that will affect our sleepstages, the restfulness that we getchanges.
So our brain is actually even when you're not thinking aboutsomething, your brain is doing a ton ofwork.
But now what we've stopped doing is giving our brains time to processinformation, process emotions because we're constantly externalizing ourattention.
And so the more that we externalize ourattention, we reduce processtimes, emotional processing in thebrain, is we reduce emotional processing in thebrain.
What do wesee? Arise in just about every mental illnesscharacteristic.
Youknow,Dr.K, as I'm sitting here listening toyou, and I had asked you about in a sort of this numbing effect that being on a short form platform or playing a video game is having on ourbrains.
And Isaid,oh,well, it can berelaxing.
Here's what I just realized in listening toyou.
That I definitely seethat, youknow, I've got this like busyness throughout theday.
My brain is alwaysengaged.
Running from one thing to thenext.
And scrolling on social media is a lever that I pull to turn the busynessoff.
But whatI'm, as I'm listening toyou, I will be veryhonest.
It's notrelaxing. When I go outside for a walk and I don't have my phone onme, that is a very different state in mybrain.
100%. And so even calling it that I'm relaxing is me kind of succumbing to what's happening with tech addiction and the casual numbing that you're doing all daylong, all daylong, all daylong.
So, Imean, it's beautifullysaid.
So this is where there's a difference between numbing our negativity andrelaxing.
Right? And that's what technology is really goodat.
There are some times where you're on technology and you do get somepositive,right?
So if I'm watching like catvideos, like I can genuinelylaugh,right?
So it does releasedopamine.
There can be some amount ofrelaxation.
And I'm notanti-technology, by theway.
Youknow, I think it's just we need to understand what effect it's having so we cancompensate.
Yes. Butabsolutely, this is what we see is a lot of numbing that goeson.
And then what happens is people like you'll notice that a lot of people who use technology have difficulty going to bed atnight.
Because once you stop thetechnology, whathappens?
There's a flood of mentalactivity.
There's a flood ofemotion.
And then I have difficulty going tosleep.
And since I'm not sleeping because my mind is running a mile aminute, what do Ido?
I pull out myphone. And once I pull out myphone, now my mind is relaxed a littlebit,right?
At least it'sfocused. It's not running in a thousand differentdirections, solving a thousand different problems that I can't actually solve right nowanyway, because it's 10 pm atnight.
What am I going todo? So then I hop on my phone for half an hour and I wait till my exhaustion becomes so profound that it overcomes that emotional flooding before I go tobed.
Holysmokes. You just described every person that'slistening.
It'scrazy. It'scrazy.
Because I think we've all had thatexperience.
And I will get a little bit later in ourconversation.
There's so many kind of foundational things I want tocover.
I promise we will get to your recommendation for what the evening routine should looklike.
But I personally understand exactly what you'resaying.
You turn offthe, you shut the laptopdown, you put your phone away and there is that flooding of activity in yourbrain.
And then it neverfails.
Calm yourself down by just scrolling back at yourphone.
Absolutely,right? So I don't know if people are likethis, I do this alot.
We'relike, even if I watch TV beforebed, I will turn off the TV and then I'll pull out myphone.
And then I'll even sometimes pull out my phone while I'm watchingTV.
And then it'slike,well, hold on asecond.
What are we doinghere? Like what's the point ofthis?
Am I trying to enjoy thisshow?
Like what'shappening?
Well,Dr.K, what ishappening?
Like what is happening in thatmoment?
Because I do feel like there are so many of us that don't want to turn over two hours a night or more just to mindlesslyscrolling.
And youknow, we were talking with Professor Adam Alter who was saying that we're going to spend 20 years of our life on ourphone.
And when we hear that and wego, we want tostop.
But what's actually happening in yourmind?
Is this a sign that you'readdicted?
Sure. So let's define a couple ofterms.
Okay. So the first islike, what do we mean byaddiction?
So generallyspeaking, when we use the clinical term ofaddiction, we're talking about something that impairs yourfunction.
Okay. So when we say that someone is analcoholic, how do I know if I have aproblem?
Basically, if it is causing problems in your professionallife, in your personallife, sociallife, mental health or physicalhealth, that's when we really think about this as anaddiction.
So the challenge right now is that we absolutely have things that areaddicting, which have not quite reached a threshold for many people of impairment tofunction.
So everyone struggles with addiction to theirphone, but they're not quite failing out of college or they'renot, youknow, getting reprimanded at theirjob.
They're able to haverelationships.
And that's what we're starting to see is that technology is squeezing itself because if there's actually like a really negativeconsequence, it's easier tostop.
So there's all kinds of stuff that's goingon.
It's absolutely shaping our behavior and taking control away fromus.
And there are all kinds of like innovations that are designed to dothat, likewhat?
So biometrics orfacity.
So if you look atthis, like this is really important tounderstand.
So when I was incollege, this was like early2000s.
When I wasstudying, I would get distracted when I was reading atextbook.
And my distraction would last maybe twominutes.
And then since I didn't have a phone at thetime, that distraction only costs me twominutes, then my mind wanders away and then it focuses back on thepast.
Rightnow, if you getdistracted, it will cost you anhour.
So all you have to do is catch thatimpulse.
If you just look at your phone and you have face IDenabled,boom.
So when you have thatimpulse, app developers are reducing the barrier between impulse andaction.
And they know that once you look at onepost, you're stuck for 45minutes.
You willscroll. So now what they're trying to do is figure out how canI, if this person has a singleimpulse, how can I get them to the firstvideo?
Because then we've got themhooked.
Youknow, the fish has taken thebait.
They're on the linenow.
So that's where what we're seeing is that the price of an impulsive distraction is becoming wayhigher.
So I think teenagers spend somewhere between four and six hours a day on their cellphone, it'scrazy,right?
And how do you think they're going to domore?
Honestly. So how doyou, how does thathappen?
It's because they hook you for a few minutes and then you lose anhour.
How do you know if you'readdicted?
And I say thatbecause, youknow, I can stand there as aparent,Dr.
Kay, and look at my25, 24 and 19 yearold, all of whom have their phones in theirhands, all of whom are cranked down with their neckscrolling.
And as I'myelling,guys, get off yourphone.
I got my phone in myhand.
Absolutely. So in a weirdway, I'd say it's the wrong question because I think we get caught up in whether we're addicted ornot.
Okay.What? What's the rightquestion?
Are you intentionally using technology in the way that you wantto?
That's thequestion,right?
So at the end of your day or at the end of yourweek, if you look back and you look at all of your technologyuse, are you happy with how that'sworking?
Are youlike,man, I'm so glad that I spent two hours and 10 minutes scrolling on TikTok at 11p.m.
on aThursday.No, I'm nothappy.
So the questionis, do you want tochange?
Are you happy with your technologyuse,right?
So we can ask and so the questionright?
So if it impairsfunction, so if it's interfering with something and fairenough, we will talk about all this negativeeffect.
So it is doing things like shortening our attentionspan.
We're seeing a rise in the diagnosis ofADHD.
So a lot ofpeople, even if they don't have adiagnosis, they identify with havingADHD.
And why isthat? It's because technology does the attentional work foryou.
So this is where I know I'm goingon.
No, it'sgreat. So when I'm reading atextbook, I have to force my mind to payattention, which means that I'm actually strengthening this capability in themind.
So themind, whatever you stretch and whatever you exercise is what getsbetter,right?
And more we practice focusing ourattention, the better we will be atfocusing.
Now what happens is with things like short formcontent, they do all the hard work for you because if something doesn't hold your attention for 15seconds, you scroll pastit,right?
So everyone is engineering content so that you are just like you're sitting and someone else isdriving.
And so you don't have to focus on yourphone.
You don't have to force yourself tofocus.
It does all the focusing foryou.
So what started to happen with our attention is instead of taking thestairs, we're taking the elevator all thetime.
So we are deconditioning our minds and then it becomes harder tofocus.
Which is why you will stand in a grocery store line and instead of just enjoying a moment where you're not doinganything, you have to look at yourphone.
Absolutely. Because your brain is being programmed and conditioned to needattention, to needsomething, to need stimulation and it's happening to you in realtime.
If you're sitting here and you're contemplating the question because you justsaid, don't I ask if you'readdicted,ask, am I satisfied and happy with the way that I'm usingtechnology?
That's the mainquestion.
Dr.K, my head is spinning because as I'm listening toyou, I'm not only learning about what I need todo, but there are about five people that come to mind immediately that I want to share this episode with like rightnow.
And so let's take a quick break so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors because of theirsupport, we can give youDr.
K at zero cost and all this life changinginformation.
Andplease, take a minute and sharethis.
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Welcomeback. It's yourbuddy,Mel.
And you and I are here today withDr.
K. He is a Harvard trainedpsychiatrist.
He is known and loved by millions of followers online at Healthy Gamer Gigi onYouTube.
And we are digging into technology and its impact on yourbrain.
Let her some of your top habits or strategiesDr.
K to take control of the amount of time you are spending on your phone or gaming or on socialmedia.
Greatquestion. I think there's twoapproaches.
So a lot of people will say justuninstall.
Yep. Oftentimes people have this experience where it'slike,okay, I uninstalled YouTube and then I installed TikTok the nextday.
So people will just swap outapps.
So what I've sort of found is that there are underlying drivers of behavior and then there are kind of environmentalthings.
Let's talk about the environmental thingsfirst.
The first thing that I would recommend is that you don't use your cell phone for the first or any technology for the first hour when you wakeup.
Now this is really important tounderstand.
What a lot of people don't realize is that you have a certain capacity for pleasure and behavioral reinforcement when you wake up in themorning.
You have only a certain number of units of pleasure and behavioralreinforcement.
Gotit. If I have a cup of capacity for both pleasure and behavioralreinforcement, you're saying that when you wakeup, that one cup is alreadyfull.
So our dopaminergic circuitry in the brain in this part called the nucleusaccumbens.
Basically, this is what gives us a sense of pleasure and also reinforces ourbehavior.
So the problem with dopamine is we wake up in the morning and our dopaminergic stores arefull.
So what happens is we have a reserve ofdopamine.
And if you want something with delayed gratification and your dopamine stores arehigh, you can work alot.
But then when you get the payoff since you have a bunch ofdopamine, you get a strong dopamine release and then you feel reallygood.
So the way that this works islike, I want you all to think aboutthis.
Let's say I wake up first thing in the morning and then I work for four hours and then what is thereward, the subjective reward that I feel after four hours ofwork?
It's reallypositive.Yeah.
Then if I use technology for fourhours, it's kind ofwhatever.
But if I use technology for the first four hours of the day and then I try to go and dowork, you're not goingto.
You're not goingto. And even if you finish the same amount ofwork, you will not experience the same level of pleasure because your dopamine has literally beendepleted.
Gotit. So the way that I kind of describe this is imagine that you have a limit that is full ofjuice.
Yep. So at the verybeginning, when it's full ofjuice, a small squeeze gets you a lot ofjuice.
And by theend, you have to squeeze a lot to get very littlejuice.
This is how dopamine is in ourbrain.
So in otherwords, if you tap into technology and it invades your circuitry and yourbrain, it literally is like squeezing most of the juice out of the lemon first thing in themorning, first thing in themorning.
And then that means it's also going to impact your ability to do the work or to focus or to feel joy and all those things that thatnormally, if you did those thingsfirst, you'd feel a sense of reward and joyfor.
Yes. So technology is like a hardsqueeze.
So if we use it first thing in themorning, we squeeze the lemon really hard and we get all the juiceout.
And then you have nothing left to feel good about because all of your dopamine stores have beendepleted.
So is this also leading to this intense rise in what we're seeing and what so many experts have come on to talkabout, which is this chronic feeling of being disconnected fromyourself, this feeling ofautopilot, this feeling of stress in your day to daylife,that, youknow, the fact that you are squeezing the juice from your brain first thing in themorning, it leaves you with noreserves.
So all of those things are true and each one has a separate neuroscientificmechanism.
Wow. Let's do one at atime.
Sure. Butconcise, I think we can dothat.
Okay. Sofirst, let's remember with thedopamine, the issue is that if you engage in a dopaminergic activity at the beginning of theday, you don't have as much dopamine to reinforce and feel pleasure for otheractivities.
That's like just how itworks,right?
Okay. We're emptying our lemon at the verybeginning.
So then working on your resume or finishing yourresume, there's nothingleft.
So you don't reinforce thebehavior.
Gotcha. This is what gets people so confused about why they're notmotivated.
And even when they move in the rightdirection, their brain is not getting a positive reinforcement to repeat that behavior because the brain isempty.
There's no pleasure left tofeel.
And that's what will happen if you are on technology for eight hours that they start working at 4p.m.
You won't feel exhilarated by 8p.m.
Even if you do the same amount ofwork.
Well, I think this happens even if you spend 10 to 15 minutes in themorning.
Yes, that's because technology isa,a,a,a, a vice of asqueeze,right?
So you get a lot ofjuice.
You empty your lemon very quickly withtechnology.
Okay. Let's talk about disconnection from theself.
Yes. So this isfascinating.
So if you look at disruptions in our sense ofidentity, what we know from studies on trauma is that when someone getstraumatized, there's this part of our brain called the corpuscolosum, which connects our right hemisphere and our lefthemisphere.
And people who get traumatized willdissociate.
So they will feel disconnected tothemselves.
What we know is that dissociation happens in part because there is a decreased connection between the right and lefthemisphere.
So our left brain islogical, our right brain isemotional.
That's somewhattrue,actually.
And so what happens is we divorce our emotion from ourlogic.
So when someone isbeing, let'ssay, like abused or something likethat, they will feel emotionally numb through the wholeexperience.
That is a defensivemechanism.
So the emotions areoverwhelming.
So we'redispassionately.
I'm, this negative thing ishappening.
I don't feelanything. So they feelnumb.
So anytime you numb youremotions, your sense of identity goes withit.
So this is what's really interesting is you can look at studies of people who have gender identity difficulties and even autismspectrum.
And it's been hypothesized that one of the reasons why people on the autism spectrum are much more likely to be non-binary is because they actually have less emotional connection tothemselves.
So our sense of self is formed by emotionalexperiences.
So if I askyou,Mel, who areyou?
What would yousay?God, I don'tknow.
Tell me aboutyourself.
Well,geez, I think you're sosmart.
I'm embarrassed to like get the wronganswer.
Tell me aboutmyself. There'sa, I am a 56 year old married woman with three adultkids.
My favorite thing in the world to do is to empower and inspirepeople.
I lovelearning. I'm super positiveperson.
I'm curious about how to squeeze the most juice from mylife.
Great. So we can pause rightthere.
So what I want you to pay attention to and everyone who's listening is the statements that you made or about your emotionalexperience.
So you mentioned that your married sure isdemographic, but I would venture that your marriage is a strong emotional part of yourlife.
Oh, my relationship with Chris is the most important thing in mylife.
And then you talk aboutcuriosity, you talk aboutlove.
If we gofurther, we'll hear about trials andtribulations.
Yeah.Right? So if you literally look at the way thatyour, your sense of identity isbuilt, it's a string of emotional experiences like my story is failing out of collegeaddiction, going toIndia, rising in some ways to the top of myfield.
Right? So these are all emotionalexperiences.
So our sense ofidentity, literally if you askpeople, who areyou?
It's our emotional moments that matter that when I went through thatdivorce, that made me who Iam.
When I survivedcancer, that made me who Iam.
When I ordered chicken salad for the seventh day in therow, that didn't make me who Iam.
There's noemotion.Yes.
I getthis. And so basically you see as a psychiatrist and an expert in gaming addiction and that since tech and social media makes asnub, that is an experience lacking this emotionalconnection, which is what you need for a sense ofidentity.
Absolutely. When I work with these like gamers whoI,oh, I'm26.
What have you been doing with yourlife?
Well, since I was18, I've been sitting at home playing a videogames.
There's one element of emotion tothat, which is I'm aloser.
So that becomes their identity because they have no span of emotional experiences because the technology is literally numbing themout.
Right? And so once you don't have that emotionalexperience, like think aboutit.
Like when your life is a haze of technologyuse, you don't become aperson.
Well, I think that's what most peopleare.
Honestly, like you wakeup, you sleep with yourphone, you look at yourphone, you commute with yourphone, you sit down atwork, you're onZoom, you're onemail, you're constantly staring at ascreen, you look at your phone when youleave, you sit at a table with your family and half the people I see in restaurants are staring at their phones instead of talking to the people that are sitting there withthem.
You're sitting down in front of theTV, you're looking at ascreen, you're also looking at yourphone, you go to bed with yourphone.
Like I feel like there's amassive, massive state of disconnection that people are feeling rightnow.
They're not calling atthat, but that's what I'm sensing profoundly in mybones.
Yes. So let's understand that because you mentioned autopilot andidentity.
So now this is where autopilot comesin.
So once I'm not connected withmyself, what prompts mybehavior, what prompts mymotivation?
Morenumbing. Like the samething.
You're just sort of on thislike,oh, that's why we becomeautopilot.
Why do we becomeauto? Oh mygod.
We got something and then on top ofit, because you need some level of force or some action to be able to take a different type ofaction, put the phonedown, get outside and go for awalk, because you have allowed technology to invade your brain and squeeze all the dopamine juice out of yourbrain.
You don't actually have that will withinyou.
Absolutely. To take theaction.
Perfect.Right. So whathappens?
It's a entity and what is it that prompts us to do something with ourlives?
It is our sense ofidentity.
I want to be adoctor. I want to be a goodperson.
I want to empower otherpeople.
I wantthis.Right. So we lose connection with our internalself.
So then what happens is normally what happens in a healthy identity is I have internal drivers and that gets balanced with the outsideworld.
The world expects this ofme.
This is what I want todo.
There's a healthy conflictthere.
Now what's going on is we are numbing ourselves to theinternal.
There is no internalanymore, which means we becomeautopilot.
What does autopilotmean?
This means that myactions, mybehaviors, mydesires, my goals are actually being conditioned in mymind.
I watch this kind of socialmedia.
I think I need a thighgap.
I watch this kind ofthing.
I need to get this kind ofthing.
I need to have a sidehustle.
Right. I need to do thisnow.
So now what happens is then we feel like we're not in control of our lives because we have all of these goals that social media is feedingus.
And then we get superconfused.
Should I do this or should I do this or should I dothis?
The reason you're confused is because none of it is coming fromyou.
One day this person is telling you thisthing.
The next day someone is telling you thisthing.
Everyone's saying get this bagtoday.
Use this supplementtomorrow.
Right. This is what autopilot means because we are not drivinganymore.
We are beingdriven. I loveyou.
I can feel the person listening rightnow.
Like literally either sitting in their car or they've put the dishes down that they've loaded or they've stepped off the treadmill at the gym and they'relike, I don't want to do this to myselfanymore.
SoDr. K now that we sort of see the implication and the fact that technology is moving faster than our brains can catch up and it is now designed to put you in this state because when you are in the state and you're on your phone all thetime, other people are making money off of thatattention.
The longer that you stay on yourphone, the more money people make and when you understandthis, you now have a choice about how you're going to use technology instead of being used byit.
And I want to get into a couple like tacticalthings.
So you just gave us all a massive wake upcall.
And so here's what I want you to do as you'relistening.
Here are people in your life that spend too much time on theirphone.
There are people in your life that you're really worriedabout.
Please letDr. K explain this tothem.
LetDr. K do the heavylifting.
Let him explain to the people that you love why this matters so much because I think when you hear him talk aboutthis, like it makes you want to do somethingdifferent.
And so please take amoment.
Here this episode with the people in your life who really need to hearit, which iseverybody.
And don't goanywhere. There is so much more we're going tocover.
We'll be waiting for you after a very short break with oursponsors.
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Welcomeback. It's your friendMel.
You and I are here today withDr.
K and he's got my headspinning.
Thankyou. Thankyou. Thank you for taking the time to share this information and this episode as a resource with people in yourlife.
Now let's jump back intoit.
Dr.K, I have another question foryou.
What do I do rightnow? So the first thing is that remove all of the things that make it easy for you to access yourphone.
Likewhat? So remove FaceID, removebiometrics.
You have to use your little log in whatever every singletime.
Make it hard for you toaccess.
So what we want to do is increase the time between an impulse to use your phone and access to yourphone.
So practically what I'll also tell people is don't carry your phonearound.
I know it soundscrazy. When I gohome, I set it in a differentroom.
I don't keep it nearme.Same.
So createspace. Second thing is no access to addicting apps on your homescreen.
Go to the app section of yourapp, open up your whole panel of 800 apps and find it thatway.
Reduceaccess. So if you reduceaccess, there's a chance you can ride out the impulse and what basically happens isthe,see, anytime we give our brain instantgratification, it reinforces the behaviormore.
So you want to make it difficult for you toaccess.
If you want to uninstallapps, go forit.
So this is even stuff like you can save your logins in a browser but don't have the nativeapp.
So if you really need to use thething, use the web app and it's going to be annoying andfrustrating,yes, that's thepoint.
So make it hard toaccess.
Okay. And by theway, I want you to consider that it's not just you're making it hard for you to accessit.
I want you to really absorb whatDr.
K issaying. You want to make it hard for all of the social media apps to accessyou?
Well,brilliant. I knew you were going there and that's exactlyit,right?
So what we want to do issee, these apps are not designed to have you have a healthy relationship withthem.
They're designed to increase your unhealthy relationship withthem.
So whatever game they want toplay, we want to try to tug of war in the oppositedirection.
So first thing is remove your impulsive access to whatever the stuffis.
So this is also where like I won't keep a lot of stuff on myphone.
I'll keep it like logged into mydesktop.
I like that idea alot. So here's another thing that I think will really get peopleinsane.
So I try to work minimally on my phone and try to almost never work on my phone atall.
So there's a huge problem where everyone'slike,okay, we're checking email on ourphone, we're doingthis, we're doingthis.
The problem is once you're in yourphone, how many times do you just do work and don't do anythingelse?
Never. So this creates a problem because now you have a good reason to be on yourphone.
But the good reason then turns into bad reason because it's easy to switch from your email to something likeTikTok.
Soeasy. So that's where work is for work and fun is for fun and separate those twothings.
Now a lot of people will push back and they'llsay, but I need my phone forwork.
Right. I'm in realestate.
I'm inthis. I'm inthat.
I'm the otherthing. So if you needit, then that's a differentstory.
But oftentimes it is convenient isdifferent.
You can sit your ass at your computer and check your email like four times a day and like you could probably be okaythere.
You don't needit.Well, here's another thing you coulddo.
If you truly have a job that you are tethered to your phone because people need to text you email you and callyou,great.
Have a work phone and don't have any social media apps onit.
Yes. Youknow, your spouse may be paranoid because now you've got twophones, but that's a separate bridge that we canget.
Just don't put a password onit.
Yeah,fair. They can look at anytime theywant.
So I think that'sgreat.
Having a secondphone, so we want to reduce our impulsive access totechnology.
That's kind of shortterm.
Medium term is some of these other things like we want to be super careful about using it an hour after we wake up in an hour beforebed.
Well, let's talk aboutthat.
Dr.K, what is your morning routine that you recommend if I really want to get control of my use of technology and not allow social media and all these apps and everything on it to get access tome?
What is the morning routine that you wouldrecommend?
What I would recommend is for the firsthour, just notechnology.
So this starts with even things like an alarmwhere, youknow, so I'll sometimes set analarm, but I tend to find that my biological clock and this comes withmeditation.
You just wake up when you tell your mind when to wake up and it can wakeup.
Andso, youknow, but if you have to start with analarm, that'sfine.
So one thing I would say is like keep your phone like at distance fromyou.
Yeah. And then do because here's thething, we have a lot of stuff todo,right?
We never get around to just do all thatstuff.
Take out thetrash, just wakeup, make your cup of coffee and then do whatever else you need todo.
So I'll meditate in themorning, forexample, for about 21minutes.
So I'll do all of that kind of stuff and then like I'll shower and I'll getready.
And an hour gets eaten up veryquickly.
You'll also find that like your day starts waybetter,right?
Because you don't waste that 28 minutes and then 12 minutes on the toilet and then five minuteshere.
So just start off trying to avoid using yourphone.
So neurologicallyspeaking, what will you likely experience if you take control of the first hour of your day and you do not let technology consume and enter yourmind?
The enemy that you need to conquer isboredom.
This is really important tounderstand.
A lot of people don't understand what boredomis.
Boredom is your brain's way of punishing you for not giving itdopamine.
So we have to understandthis.
What does thatmean? I don't know what thatmeans.
It punishes you for100%.
Yes. So if I'm addicted to opiates and I don't getopiates, I have adraw.
Yeah. And you know what that would all feelslike.
So we get hypersensitivity of ournososeceptors, whichare, which is our painreceptors.
So our brain and our body punishus.
Theysay,Hey, we need thisstuff.
I'm going to punish you as a signal to give me what Iwant.
This is true ofopiates.
This is also true of calories andhydration.
Better and first are negative experiences that are used to drivebehavior.
So our body punishes us all the time if we are not doing goodthings.
Okay.Now, the problem is that this gets hijacked by things liketwinkies, where the hunger signal was evolved when we didn't have twinkies when we had like roots and tubers that we had toeat.
And in the sameway, boredom has all kinds of healthy reasons why we haveit.
But now it's gotten hijacked bytechnology.
So when our brain is cravingdopamine, it will make you feelbored.
And your antidote to boredom is to give it what itneeds.
It's like it's jonesing forthis,right?
It's kind ofcrazy. So we have to understand that boredom is not like something to beavoided.
Boredom is your brain's way of taking control of you because thenoh, like I'mbored.
So what do youdo? You reach for yourphone.
Absolutely,right? And then the brain issatisfied.
It'slike,yeah, thanks for giving me a hit ofthis.
By theway,dumbass, you only did this for 15minutes.
And now you now you have thisthought,oh, I have stuff todo.
So you close the phone and then your brain islike,ah, I'mbored.
I don't want to dothat. Pull up the phoneagain.
So the main thing that you have to tolerate isboredom.
You don't have to conquerit.
You just have to tolerate it because eventually if you don't give into thething, that signal willsubside.
So our brain has this principle of homeostasis where it never sends us signalsforever.
So even if you'rehungry,right, you misslunch, you feel hungry for a while and then your brain acclimatizes to thesignal, you stop feeling hungry for an hour or two and then the brain reminds youagain, same thing willhappen.
It'strue. So what we want to do with technology is we don't need to conqueranything.
We needendurance. We need actually to lean intoinaction.
We don't have to bepositive.
We don't have to bemotivated.
We don't have to work on ourresume.
All we need to do isendurance.
Just tolerate thenegativity, tolerate theboredom.
That's going to be your mainenemy.
Okay.Great. So if you're listening to this rightnow, no cell phones in thebathroom, because what do you need yourself on the bathroomfor?
I don'tknow. It's the alleviation ofboredom.
Right? That'strue. And it'slike, do you really need stimulation for the five minutes of theday?
I don'tknow. I don'tknow.
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