Will AI improve our lives or exterminate the species?
What would it take to abolish poverty?
Are you eating enough fermented foods?
These are some of the questions we've tackled recently on The Next Big Idea.
I'm Rufus Griscum, and every week I sit down with the world's leading thinkers for in -depth conversations that will help you live, work, and play smarter.
Follow The Next Big Idea wherever you get your podcasts.
From LinkedIn news, I'm Jesse Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. Start your week with the Hello Monday podcast. We'll navigate career pivots.
We'll learn where happiness fits in.
Listen to Hello Monday with me, Jesse Hempel, on the LinkedIn Podcast Network or wherever you get your podcasts.
Nasrata, thanks for joining us today.
Great to be with you, Kwame.
Thanks for inviting me.
It is our pleasure, my friend.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
So I am a psychologist in background, I've trained as a clinical and forensic psychologist. And really what that means is I've worked with some pretty challenging people and people who've been in challenging situations.
So I worked in maximum security environment with offenders and those who might be classified as psychopaths and went on to work with the military, returning from war zones, treating post -traumatic stress disorder and head injuries, I now work with leaders, coaching them in the skills that I was trained in, in having effective influence and working with negotiation, which is perhaps what brings me here with you today.
Absolutely. And you have a book that's out.
Can you tell us about that too?
I do. I have a book that was released last year in my first book, my only book called The Leadership Pin Code, Unlocking the Key to Willing and Winning Relationships, and essentially it's handbook for leaders on the very practical tips that I've learnt and I'm now sharing with them on how they can have those impactful conversations building trust in relationships and so much about how you can do that in every conversation every day.
Okay now for the listeners they might say wow that book sounds fascinating, I should buy that and they should say that and they should say also, your work is really fascinating but they might not see the connection between the two.
So where's the synergy?
You know, the synergy is that a lot of the work that I had to do was building relationships with people who had very different experiences to my own and perhaps were resistant to change or was not very motivated to work with somebody like a psychologist on some of challenges they were facing.
So I was trained in skills around conversation, understanding how you can use body language to communicate and build relationships.
And very much what I call the ABC of how we develop trusting relationships with other people.
And what I've done in the book is I've shared that toolkit.
So understanding your advanced preparation that's the A, your body language, which is B, and C, the conversation you have. Those very basic skills actually can make all the difference between working with somebody collaboratively and perhaps getting through those difficult conversations and conflicts that you might have. That's interesting, and I think one of the things that's most interesting to me coming from this field is that you put the C last, of course, that's how A, B, and C kind of relate to each other in general.
Right. Yeah. But especially when think about leadership, negotiation, persuasion, conflict resolution, a lot of people start with the conversation part, but you didn't start there, and I'm assuming there's some level of intentionality behind that, too.
It's very intentional Kwame, and you will know this from negotiations that perhaps 80 % if you want to put a figure on it, of your effectiveness in a negotiation is really about your advanced preparation.
It's the research that you do on the people that you're going to meet with, that you want to negotiate, we will have impact with, is what you know about their intentions and their interests, their motivations, their drivers and so it's very intentional that I put the A, the advance preparation at the beginning not just because it's A in the ABC but because actually that is where most of your success comes from is in doing your homework.
Much as you would if you were going for an interview and you try and figure out who's going to be interviewing me or if you're the interviewer who is this candidate who's going to come in front of me, I need to know a little bit more about them.
So, for me, the ABC is intentional in its order and advanced preparation is much more important than actually the words that come out of your mouth.
Research shows, doesn't it, and you would be familiar with this, that most of our impact is to do with how we speak, how we communicate, not so much the words that we speak.
Right, and based on what you've seen with people in the professional world having difficult conversations when it comes to advance preparation.
I think that's one of the things that people really struggle with.
So I know the listeners were probably tired of hearing me say that.
So if you but I'm going to say it again.
If you go to our website, americannegotiationinstitute .com slash guide, you can get access to all of our free negotiation guides.
Preparation guide is one of them, but it's over 15 guides to help you walk through and systematically prepare.
And one of the reasons why we do this is because people don't fully understand and appreciate what true preparation is and in this world where we're all part of the cult of busyness, a lot of times what I realize is that a lot of professionals can trick themselves into believing that they don't have time to prepare effectively for these impactful conversations.
So first, can you tell us a little bit about the time that it would take to do the preparation and then after you talk about that, we'll talk about what it actually looks like in practice.
You know, it's one of those frustrating answers isn't it?
It depends. Sometimes you can do very little preparation, that's all that's needed.
Maybe that's all you've got time for.
Let's say you're walking along the corridor, and you bump into someone you've had a ...
you previously had a difficult conversation with, and you know that you need to work with them again, and it's an opportunity for you to either walk past them and ignore them, or take on the opportunity for resetting that relationship and trying to create a connection with them.
You don't have much time walking down the corridor to prepare what you want to say, but you do have some time.
And I often say to leaders, and what I've tried to do in my book and my work is simplify what can feel like a very complicated advanced preparation process.
So in everyday work, I think we can grab those few seconds walking down the corridor and just mentally shift our mindset, for example, to rather than confrontation to, okay, this is an opportunity for me to reset the relationship by saying hi, smiling and asking you a question.
So that's a very short preparation.
On the other hand, in very complex negotiations where we're making deals or we're talking about investments or we're mediating great big conflicts, then you would want to spend several weeks, even months perhaps, in your response preparation, figuring out what the motivations, the drivers of all the different parties are, so that when you get into that conversation you can take care of those interests.
So, it really does depend on the type of work that you're engaged in.
So, it can be anything from a few seconds, minutes, to months of promotion.
Yep, that makes sense.
And what would you say is the biggest mistake that people make when going through this preparation process?
Getting absorbed with their own agenda, staying in their own heads.
And it's so interesting.
I see it with leaders over and over again.
They're given a mandate, and they know they have to go and communicate that or get buy -in or support from other people.
and they'll run into the conversation with, what I need is, let me tell you about what I'm working with, let me tell you about what I need support for, and not paying attention to opening up the start with what is in it for the other person.
How can I pull them into this conversation by hearing their motivations and interests in supporting me, or listening to me.
Why should they listen to me?
Why should they be interested in supporting me?
So I think the biggest mistake most people make is jumping into talking about what is important to them and not paying attention to what's important to us.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
One of the terms I've coined is egocentric persuasion, where we focus on what it is that would persuade us and what we want and why, and then we go in and we communicate it exclusively from our own perspective.
And then, we are absolutely shocked as to why people don't get on board. Why it just falls flat, right?
And you're wondering why somebody isn't jumping up and giving you all the support that you're looking for straight away.
And now on to the B, so we're talking about body language.
So tell us where we should even start there.
With the body language, I think what's important is to remember that even though we might intend to communicate something through our words, often our body language is giving away signals that we're unaware of.
So, where to start is to be very conscious, get feedback from other people.
How do I come across when I'm trying to be supportive?
Do I communicate that in the way that I use my hands, my facial expressions?
How am I in a way being in concert with my intention?
I've seen many a time leaders say to me, for example, I thought I was being really clear, but people looked very confused or I thought I was being helpful, but I was told I was micromanaging, being controlling.
so their intention wasn't showing up in their body language and behavior.
So the first thing is just to check with others, do I come across in the way I think I come across?
And once you've got that feedback, if there are any gaps between your intention and your behavior, you can start to think about perhaps getting videos of your presentations or of your meetings and seeing what you're doing that may be getting more.
I think that's great, and I don't think enough people take the time to ask for that feedback.
We just look at the outcome, And then a lot of times we blame other people For the unpleasant outcomes that we find ourselves and people would be surprised at how often people are willing to give you that feedback when you ask for it.
I've done this in the professional world with my staff, done this with my family, learned a lot about myself in the process.
It's painful, Kwame, isn't it?
Isn't that why we avoid doing it, actually.
You know, to your point, I think the reason we don't ask for it is because when people are commenting on our body language, it's quite a personal reflection, isn't it?
It's quite different to saying, whether you've achieved something well or didn't.
It's about you and I think we struggle often, getting that very personal feedback.
The other challenge is who do you ask for more?
Your family may be kind or brutal one way or the other and perhaps not filtered enough been giving you the information in a way that is easy for you to digest or accept, and at work, if you're a leader, which is the space I work in, perhaps people are a little fearful of giving you that feedback in case there's negative repercussions or they might upset you and you might be sensitive.
So it is difficult to get that feedback.
I often say to leaders, either video yourself in meetings or in these situations so you can look at yourself, or If you do have a trusted confidant like a coach or somebody else in the business who isn't directly reporting to you, that you trust their opinion, maybe ask them to give you some feedback.
That makes a lot of sense, and as you're asking people for this feedback, so let's assume that the people listening don't have access to a coach like this, and the only way they can get their feedback is by asking the people around them for feedback.
What can they do to make the people that they're talking to feel safe in providing that feedback freely without ramifications.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I wanna ask you a question.
Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations?
At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top -tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills.
Whether it's a keynote for your next event, or hands -on training for your team, we've got you covered.
Don't just negotiate.
Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute.
Click the link in the description to find out more.
Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.
From LinkedIn news.
I'm Leah smart, host of everyday better and award winning weekly podcasts dedicated to personal development.
Whether you're looking for ways to shift your mindset or seeking more fulfillment in your life, we've got you covered.
You can build internal resources.
That's what the study of psychology is about, building internal resources.
Turning towards is one of the most important elements of successful relationships, no matter what kind of relationship it is.
The thing that underpins all of this productivity stuff is finding a way to make the journey itself enjoyable.
The journey is the destination.
The beauty of uncertainty is infinite possibility.
When you don't know what's next, you don't know what's next.
And thus, anything can be next.
Join me as we dive into captivating stories and research -backed ideas that have empowered me and others to lead lives with more clarity and intention.
Everyday Better, making growth an everyday practice.
Listen to Everyday Better on the LinkedIn Podcast Network, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Great question. I think you have to start with making sure that the people that you ask, first of all there's no authority gap or power gap between you and them because that will always be a bit of a challenge that you're asking people who perhaps will be concerned about the consequences from their feedback.
So look for peers or look for people outside of your or government reporting line, that's the first thing.
Secondly, when you do ask for feedback, let them know that you are open to it by setting the expectations and asking them to provide feedback on very concrete aspects.
So rather than going into the conversation, you're saying, I'd love some feedback on how I come across.
People don't really know what kind of feedback you're looking for or how open you are to very specific feedback.
So you might say, when I present, I'd love it if you would give me some feedback on whether I'm clear enough or how I use my hands or is there anything that I'm doing that is interfering with my message?
So be very confident in your ask and then be very quiet while they respond.
The third piece of advice I give is, If they do share a keep -back with you that you don't agree with or you don't want, accept it gracefully since you've asked to agree with them and don't defend.
It's very natural for us to go yes but what I was trying to do, I know you're saying I was waving my hands but the reason I was doing it was, we launch into this defensive explanation of being invited to agree with them.
And so I often proceed to say thank you, I accept the keep -back, I'll go on and reflect comment and do that.
Go away with that comment and think about what truth there might be, even if you were feeling a little sensitive or defensive.
Okay. So, these are gems and I really want us to dig into this because I think when people hear what you said, especially the last two things where you say, be quiet while they respond and accept the feedback without defense.
I think people can logically understand that.
They say, okay, got it.
I'll be quiet. Okay, got it.
I won't be defensive.
They don't get it, okay.
And they will be defensive, So when it comes to being quiet, this might seem silly, right, but humor me here.
When you say be quiet, what does that mean?
That means listening without talking but attending to the information.
So instead of what often happens when people go quiet, is they start to have a conversation with themselves in the head, preparing the answer they're going to give, so they're not really listening to what's being said.
They're listening to respond.
they start to think, oh she's mentioned me waving my hands, I'm already getting annoyed about that and I'm going to prepare my response while she's still talking.
So when I say be quiet, I literally mean don't speak but pay attention to what is being said and the only way you can truly test whether you've paid attention is to repeat acts with someone what you've heard. So I'll often say to people, in order to be sure that you've been actively listening, there's only one way to show that.
Can you summarize what was shared?
If you can't summarize it, you won't pay any attention.
So if you are being given feedback, test out that you've heard it and said to a person, for example, Kwami, if you were giving me feedback now on my body language, I'd listen, I'd stay quiet and then I'd say, okay, let me see if I've understood you correctly.
So what you're saying is the way I use my hands perhaps is interfering with the way in which I get my message across, Is that right, Quan?
Is that what you meant?
So you're inviting, which is a check and balance.
Did I hear you correctly?
And also validating your feedback.
So you're going to feel that the feedback you gave me is valuable.
I did pay attention to it.
I really did want to.
I love that. That's great.
And now with the defensiveness, right.
Let's actually break down what you mean when you are getting defensive, because a lot of times people will say, well, I'm not getting defensive.
I'm just explaining what they don't understand, Which is a really nice way of saying you're getting defensive So can we draw the line between what might be a legitimate response?
And what is more categorized as defensive?
You know, it's it's a very subtle distinction based on emotion.
I believe so when we are defensive Which you can feel it in yourself.
There's an emotion is driving the urge to explain yourself It might be irritation or annoyance or anger.
And it comes from a place of I'm feeling triggered and I want to explain my trigger rather than listening.
And when we are not defensive but explaining, it doesn't come in the same way from the emotional need to push that information onto the other person.
So I would check in with myself and say, Is there an emotion surging now?
Can I feel an urge to respond to that perhaps is about my emotional trigger rather than a factual explanation that will help the other person?
You know what's really interesting about that too is that okay we understand one can come from emotions more and then the other one comes from just relaying facts.
I think a really interesting distinction even goes beyond the feeling because I'm starting to get a better understanding of when i'm feeling emotional and defensive i'm feeling i feel it in my chest i feel like i cannot like if i even if i wanted to i couldn't stop saying what i wanted to say that's the urge right and so the other thing is taking a step back and asking yourself why it is you feel the need to say this what is it that is driving me to say this so even beyond the the emotional side what is the strategic value of saying this at this time.
Is it just to elevate yourself because you feel like you've been taken down a peg?
Or is it the fact that there is a legitimate misunderstanding that you are trying to clarify for the sake of the other person?
This is great. I love this.
Because if I have a misunderstanding, I see it, and it's just for me, then I could just kind of save that for myself and just eat it and then have the person continue to share information, information that is only within their head and not within mine.
So this is my only opportunity to get it.
But if it's not elevating them, or helping them, or helping the relationship at all, then that might be a sign that it is defensiveness in disguise.
So I have a simple rule.
In fact, I used this in a workshop just yesterday.
And the simple rule I have is if you're going to give somebody feedback, whether it's corrective or explanatory, whatever it is, the simple rule is this.
If it is to get something off your chest, don't do it.
If it has a learning opportunity for the other person, feel free to share.
And that's, I think, summarises what you've just said.
But it's a very simple rule when people feel the urge to give, especially leaders, want to give feedback to somebody, and they're justifying it as feedback, but really it's defense of reaction.
So it's simple. If it's just because you feel the need to say it, go tell a friend, scream to a pillar, whatever you need to do, but if there's a learning opportunity for the other person and it benefits them, feel free to go ahead.
Oh man, I hope people are really paying attention to this because this is something that I've discovered through a little bit of self -discovery and introspection over the past month or so, I'm realizing that sometimes when I'm emotional I feel the need to say things and if I'm emotional, I'm feeling emotional, and it's directed to an individual, I feel as though the only outlet for this emotional expression is to share these things with the other person.
And what I'm realizing is that, if I, through meditation I've recognized that emotions are kind of like energy.
You think about it, it's neither good nor bad, it is an energy, how do you deal with that energy?
And so what I've found is that, if I sit down and viciously journal, I mean, like people look at him like, oh, well, man, it looks like he's mad at that paper.
I don't know what's going on.
But I just journal and just say everything that I would have said it to that other person and I just journal and then what I recognize is that as i get toward the end of that journaling session, what I'm saying becomes more like self -coaching and I work through it and I reach a state of emotional equilibrium that allows me to function and I didn't need to emote on somebody else in a way that could potentially be destructive.
And what you're also doing and I love that, journaling really works for a lot of people and if you're not a journaler you can you know put it into your phone in notes you can go and speak to somebody at the point is to express that energy in another direction than the person who you feel irritated with.
But the most important thing that I think you're doing apart from processing it is you're taking a step path and creating some space, you're letting the emotion diffuse rather and jumping on it and giving into the urge to react.
When we're responding to our emotions, when they are high and we describe it, both of us use the word, you know, this urge to say or this urge to share.
The reason we're giving in to the urge is to leave ourselves, to purge ourselves of the discomfort of our people.
It's out there then, the other person's got it and we can relax and grow better.
So, resisting the urge just to feel better for ourselves at the cost of somebody else, is what's really important here.
especially in negotiations and building relationships in the work environment.
If we just give into our own urges to make ourselves feel better at the cost of the other person's feelings or emotions, then we're likely to damage these relationships, and in some cases maybe be irreparable depending on how we react.
Absolutely. Oh, this is great.
This is great. This feels almost like a therapy session.
I don't know. Maybe it's like you have a background in psychology.
I did that vibe. Well a lot of what I'm sharing probably is coming from my psychology background.
I work with some pretty difficult people in difficult situations and had to think very carefully about choice of words, how I communicate.
I was trained in these techniques as a forensic psychologist. You know, the importance of how you frame what you say in case you get a reaction.
I was working in some cases with people who have potential for violence And I could trigger that reaction in the week I was, clumsy or not careful really about how I express myself to get the information I needed.
So I think you're right, you're probably feeling a little bit of my psychological toolkit coming through now.
I love it. I told you before, I'm a psychology nerd too.
I just happen to be a lawyer, but I like the psych degree a lot more.
I really do. And now what's really, really interesting about this, Nashuta, is the fact that we've talked about preparation in depth.
We've talked about body language in depth.
We've talked about how to give and receive feedback, but we haven't really explicitly done a deep dive into the C, which is conversation, which again, which is what most people would figure we would spend the majority of our time on.
I think what would be interesting is to spend our time, our remaining time focusing on some of the counterintuitive discoveries that you found with working with psychopaths and working with leaders.
So when it comes down to how to effectively have the conversations, what kind of comes to mind when you think about the outside of the box counterintuitive discoveries that you found?
One of the counterintuitive discoveries I found was never to ask the question why, of a person.
And it's interesting because when things go wrong, when particularly in a work environment you have a tendency to want to ask that straight away.
Why were you late? Why did you deliver on time?
Why were you thinking that?
And that simple question of starting with Why can create such a defensive reaction in other people because it feels very personal and blaming.
If I was to say to you for example, for a million, well why are you asking me that question?
It suddenly feels quite attacking, doesn't it?
It's like, oh, ok, it's about me and she's annoyed with me.
So, one of the counterintuitive trainings really that I was exposed to was, how can you ask why without asking why?
How can you use questions and steer the conversation so that you get data, because essentially when we ask why we're looking for data, we want explanations, we want information so that we can better understand what's happening?
And how can we use open questions to get data?
And actually, the more curious we are.
And simple curiosity can make an enormous difference to how we phrase our questions and how we invite people to join us in that sharing of information.
So instead of saying, well, why did you ask me that question?
I say, so tell me more about what you were thinking when you were asking me the question.
Why don't you bring me into your mindset or experiences?
How did that happen?
When did it start? what was your first thought about?
And when you start to open up for those, what I call the W questions, who, what, where, when, or how, the H, then you don't need why.
Wiser is absent really in that toolkit.
So, you can get so much more information if you use the, who, what, where, when, how, type questions and used effectively, and we don't have time to go into how you, you may set up an entire conversation and steer it using those, but between asking questions, effective use of silence is summarizing we talked about earlier, and indeed mirroring what people say, which you know is very important in negotiations, you can have a very enriched conversation with somebody else, even when it's a difficult conversation, because you're avoiding blaming and inviting the other person to join you in this curious
exploration of the data that you both want to know more about.
That is a great point.
And I tell you, when when I discovered the dangers of asking why, and I started to look back on some of my other conversations, I see, oh, okay, now I understand why they got defensive.
Now I understand why I didn't get as much information, and why they might have responded with hostility.
It's just the way that we asked the question, even if your tone is in the right spot, people hear that word, why, and then they tend to get defensive.
And so you're absolutely right.
You can make them feel safe and still get the good or better quality as good of or a better quality of information by using other question alternatives.
So I appreciate that.
And before you go, I want again, to give you an opportunity to let listeners know about your business, the book, and how they can get in touch with you.
Oh thank you Kwame.
I've enjoyed our conversation and it's one of those conversations that when you're with you know another psychology and legal nerd and you know I love that your legal background and think in another life I might have pursued a similar career.
It's always easy to carry on talking so I appreciate the time you've given me today.
So I work now with leaders and you can find me on my website which is progressingminds .com so there are leaders out there who would be interested in learning these kinds of techniques, they can find me there and I'm very active on LinkedIn.
So it's very easy if you send me a personal message I'm pretty good at getting back to people most of the time.
And my book is available, the leadership pin code is available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and most online schools.
So you can also find me there.
Fantastic, thank you so much for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Likewise Kwame, great to see you today.
If you've made it to the end of this episode you're now part of our negotiation community.
Every conversation, every deal, Well, every tough negotiation shapes the world we live in, and the more we grow together, the stronger our community becomes.
If this episode gave you something valuable, don't let it stop with you.
Share it with someone who needs it – a friend, a coworker, or anyone looking to take more control of their conversations, their careers, and their lives.
Every time we bring somebody new into this space, we make negotiation a tool for real change.
And if someone's shared this with you, take a second to acknowledge that.
They see you as part of this journey, and as someone who belongs in this community.
Let them know you appreciate it.
This is how we build something meaningful.
We do it by looking out for each other.
So if you haven't already, join us, subscribe, stay connected, and help us to grow this movement.
Because when we become better negotiators, we create better outcomes for ourselves and for others.
Hit subscribe and share this with someone, and let's keep building together.
I'll catch you in the next one.
