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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Good morning. This is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome, and any advice they have for the rest of us.
So today, I am delighted to welcome Gretchen Rubin to the show.
Gretchen hosts the Happier podcast with her sister Elizabeth Kraft.
She's also the author of several books, including The Happiness Project and Better Than Before.
She's coming to us from New York City.
Gretchen, I'm so happy to be talking to you, Laura.
Yeah. Well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you're up to these days?
Well, as you say, I'm in New York City, you perhaps hear a siren in the background.
A little bit of a local flavor.
So I'm a right, I do many things as one does, but I'm a writer, and I have a book coming out of the spring called Secrets of Adulthood, which is all of the secrets of adulthood that I have learned the hard way.
I was collecting them to give to my daughters, but then I realized I need to remember these for myself just as much.
And so I'm really excited to be doing that.
And then I'm also working on a project about the empty nest, because my younger daughter just went off to college.
And so I'm very, you know, I think that the empty nest, which Laura, you are very far away from this period of life, but what's interesting about it is that it's a forced reckoning.
And I think, I mean, one of the things you talk about all the time is like the need to reflect and really step back and think about how am I using my time?
How am I using my energy?
Is there a better way that I could be using my time and my energy and to have the life that I want?
And I think for a lot of people, because there's such a dramatic shift in our relationships and our space and our habits, and it's just a time where people naturally, even if they don't want to, sometimes step back and think about, okay, what do I want from life anyway?
So it's an interesting time to study.
Yeah, well, I'm always a fan of reflection.
And yes, I'm a long way from the empty years, empty nest years with my little one, but I do have an older child going off to college in the fall.
So we'll start to at least experience the emptying.
Right. Emptying, yes.
I probably see open door, because I think that sounds much more positive, right.
So your door, you will have an open door with people coming and going for a very long time.
Probably a lot of people coming and going a lot.
Yes. Well, I'm curious, Gretchen, about I mean, you have so many things going on between the podcast, the writing projects, and running your business, which brings lots of different happiness content to people.
Maybe you can tell us a little bit about your daily schedule.
First, do you have a morning routine?
People love to hear about that on this show.
Yes. Well, this might sound a little bit alarming to people who are not morning people, but I get up at 5am because whenever I'm doing a very intense creative work, I find it much easier to do in the morning because the world is quiet, my mind is quiet.
And so when I'm doing something original, like I'm working on this project, Empty Nest, I'll get up so that from like five to nine, I can really dedicate myself to that.
Or if there's something that I'm really dreading, like even if it's an email that is just like horrible, because I am such a morning person, I always think, okay, I'm going to do that.
I'm going to wake up and do that first thing in the morning because I know that's like my clearest mind, my highest energy and my highest focus.
And then at like 9am, I'm in a folder in the Fortenesis framework.
And I know you are too, Laura.
So at 9am, I walk my dog at some point, and then at 9am I have breakfast.
And then sort of my real day starts.
And that's when I start doing things like answering emails, having meetings, sometimes I'll meet somebody for breakfast, even though I've been up for a really long time.
More like lunch for you at that point.
Right. And so what I like about the early morning for me as a morning person is it's very consistent, like nothing really interrupts it, because not that many things happen before 9am, so I can count on that time.
And then the rest of my day starts being, you know, I'm exercising, I do high intensity weight training, you know, I go to the med every day, so I have to fit that in.
Then I start having, I would like to live as a monk, like every day is exactly the same.
But I can't. Well, much as we might try.
But yeah, so when does that met visit tend to happen?
Because that sounds like a pretty fantastic work break for people who don't know.
Gretchen goes to the Metropolitan Museum of Art almost every day.
So yeah, when does that happen?
So I'm super lucky that I live within walking distance of the Met.
And of course, I never take that for granted.
I'm super, super fortunate.
But what I realized is that I needed time in the day where I could just have recess where I could just let my mind off the leash and just kind of wander.
And so when I was working my book life in five senses, I decided to go to the Met every day just because I was like, how will it change over the course of a year as I if I went every day?
And that isn't open on Wednesdays.
So I can only go six days a week.
But but it's like I love it more all the time.
Like, I that year was years ago now.
And I still go every day that I'm in New York City.
And, and it's just I go for as long or as short as I want.
And I just wander around.
I go to I just do whatever I feel like sometimes I see a new exhibit, sometimes I go back to my old favorites.
It's just so it's a really it's a treat in my day.
Yeah. Well, another thing that I do is I take a nap every day.
If you look at the research, there's huge amounts of research about the benefits of taking a nap.
And I take like, it's almost like always a 22 minute nap, even though I don't set an alarm.
And I do find that that helps me like get a kick of energy as well.
So I'm trying to space the nap and the Met so that I can kind of maintain my energy throughout the day, my focus.
Yeah, I'm curious about the nap, I am not a very good napper.
So how do you how do you get yourself down to sleep?
And, and then, you know, also ensure that you are, you know, not groggy waking up and things like that.
Yeah, I think now my father is like a champion napper.
So maybe part of this is genetic.
And I just have good napping genes.
But what I just encourage people to try it.
Now, I think if you're if you're kind of chronically underslept, you might find that you would drop into a deep sleep of like an hour and a half if you could.
So I'm not that I'm a sleep zealot.
So I'm very well, well rested.
So my naps, like I just lie down if there's something really important where I have to be awake, I set an alarm just basically so that so I don't worry about waking up in time.
But usually I just sit, I'll listen to a podcast like a very kind like an in our time or some kind of like gentle podcast that's not that engaging, but you know, interesting enough to hold my attention.
But then I just drift off.
And I don't go that deeply into sleep.
And then I just kind of automatically come back after about 22 minutes.
And it takes a few minutes to kind of wake up like a lot of times I'll brush my teeth or wash my face or something just to kind of wake myself up.
But I do find that it really does restore my energy and my focus.
And so I would encourage people to experiment with it.
It's also the kind of thing at one part of your life, it might not have worked.
But now it might like if you had little kids and you were being your night sleep was really disrupted.
This might, you might be hard to take sort of like a like a short nap the way I am.
But but if it works for you, it really can be powerful.
Excellent. All right.
So between going to the Met and taking a nap sounds like an excellent way to put some breaks into your work.
Well, here's another thing, Dan Pink who wrote a book about time I had the idea of the nappuccino, which is you drink, you drink a big cup of coffee or something with a lot of caffeine, because it takes about 25 minutes for caffeine to hit your bloodstream.
So if you have a nappuccino, you'll like automatically wake up with a kick of caffeine.
So that's that's another that's another hack for the life hack there.
Little life hacks and nappuccino, nappuccino.
All right. Well, we're going to take a quick ad break.
And then I will be back with more from Gretchen Rubin.
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Well, I am back interviewing Gretchen Rubin, who is the author of The Happiness Project, co -host of the happier podcast.
So Gretchen, we are coming into the new year here end of 2024, beginning of 2025, when this is airing.
Are you the sort of person who sets New Year's resolutions or are you not?
Oh, 100 % I am. I'm like the most of that.
Yes, you might even say I've almost built my career around making resolutions.
So why don't you talk a little bit about what they tend to look like for you?
Well, over time, what I've learned is that resolutions work best when they're very concrete and they're manageable and they focus on actions, not outcomes.
And so, you I found that like saying something I like I want to visit the Met more often, isn't as successful as visit the Met for 10 minutes every day or not like read more, but read for a half an hour every day.
Where there's something where or what's even harder is when people put in something like, well, I want to learn Italian.
Well, that's such a vague, amorphous and almost kind of like impossible aim that you're going to fall short of it and feel frustrated.
But if it was like, use a language learning app to learn five new vocabulary words every week, that you could do.
And so I made this mistake in 2024, because I was like, learn to watercolor.
And it just part of it.
Part of what happened is I like, I actually took a class and I like cleared my calendar and spent the money and got friends to do it with me.
And then I had a terrible, terrible teacher.
And so I felt like I was like, I almost felt like I had been cheated.
And then I was like, what took all this time for me until like now I don't want to put more time, which is obviously irrational and yet it kind of kind of soured my view.
But for 2025, I'm really breaking it into like, do watercolor every single day that can include just watching a video or reading reading something about watercoloring.
But like every single day do something that like connects me to practice of watercolor.
And I want to do a postcard once a month and send it to somebody.
So that again, it's like, that's something that like, in January, I'll give myself a checkmark.
In February, I'll give myself a checkmark.
One of my resolutions is to create stations where I can work on it.
So it's like, okay, well, if I'm doing watercolor, that can be kind of messy.
Where am I going to do it in my apartment?
Can I leave it out?
So it's out all the time, so I don't have to constantly fuss with it.
So I broke it into individual steps so that I can be like, yes, I'm doing this.
I'm maintaining my materials.
Yes, I'm doing this.
Because what I found is like, I went, I loved all the materials and like, buying the paper and the pens and the brushes, but it's like, okay, but you've got that stuff.
Now you're going to do the painting.
So 2025 is like, okay, now I got to put brush to paper.
But I really broke it down to make it manageable.
Well, and the idea of sending a postcard a month is a way to hold yourself accountable for it.
Absolutely. Like there's a thing that I, that I'm aiming to do that will be satisfying.
And I have a book where it's like watercolor paper made into postcards.
So it's just like a very, it will be a very easy thing.
It's all kind of ready to go.
Right. But that is about accountability.
Yeah. And, and I imagine that's like one of the things that people, what you're talking about as you are setting these goals, what people tend to get wrong as they're setting resolutions is that they tend to be vague.
They haven't thought through what it's going to look like in their actual lives, or where it's going to fit in their schedule or in their apartment as the case may be.
There's no accountability.
Like how will I know if I've succeeded, right?
Like I don't know, like you could spend a lifetime learning Italian, so it's kind of hard to say like, if I succeeded at this goal or not.
Yes. So yeah, are there any other pitfalls that people tend to tend to have with these?
Well, we were talking about accountability and I don't want to get into my whole four tendencies personality framework because it takes like a minute to go through it.
This is a framework that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers and rebels.
If people want to learn more, then go to gretchenreuben .com slash quiz and take the quiz and you'll learn all about it.
And all will be revealed about your personality.
But the key thing for a lot of people is to know that for the biggest group of people, obligers of the four, they need outer accountability even to meet an inner expectation.
So if they want to read more, they need to join a book group or, you know, have an accountability buddy or tell their kids while you're reading for school, I'll read for school.
And if I'm not reading, you don't have to do your reading, you know, so now your kids are holding your accountable.
They need accountability.
Now I'm an upholder, so I don't need accountability in the same way.
But but to your point, it's satisfying to have milestones that you you can demonstrably meet so that you know, like, I am making progress.
I am do I am doing what I said I would do.
I am seeing that I am passing these milestones.
And so and again, it's sort of like training for the marathon.
Sometimes people think, like, oh, I want to if I want to run more, I should train for the marathon.
But sometimes what happens is people run the marathon and then they never run again, or they do 30 days of yoga and then they never do yoga again.
It's important to think of things as milestones.
These are milestones that we will pass.
But in in the continuation of a habit forever.
So my 12 postcards are important.
But it's like it's not like, oh, I've done my 12 postcards.
Now, if I just sat down and did my 12 postcards, and be like, I'm done.
Yeah, January 2. Right.
The 12 postcards are more like to give me milestones of like, okay, I see that I'm making progress so that I'm and I'm moving through it more than sort of like, okay, now I'm done.
Yeah. And we want to make it doable in daily life, too.
I mean, something like I'm going to do some watercolor, but you're not saying I'm going to do six hours of watercolor every day.
Well, even saying something like I could watch, like, let's say I'm stuck in a car, I could watch a video on YouTube about watercolor, and that would count.
I'm like, I'm going to lower the bar a lot.
So that I don't feel like, well, I have to abandon this because it's just not realistic.
It's like, okay, well, even if I'm just reading this article that I printed out from the internet about, you know, what is dry on dry?
I don't know, you know, because I had such a bad teacher.
She didn't explain that to me.
So it's like any little bit will count because I think that's what's going to help me build up those skills and that knowledge over time.
Well, let's take something like, you know, you know, you had a resolution many, many years ago with the happiness project to make yourself happier over the course of a year.
But if somebody was going to do that, somebody said, like, I want to be happier in 2025.
Yeah. Like, I have two answers, like a transient answer and a practical answer.
I'll give the practical answer first.
Because people ask me this very question all the time, I became very frustrated because I was always like, well, Laura, it depends.
Like what are your interests?
What do you need? Like, what moves the needle for you?
Like, I have to sit down and have a long conversation with you.
And people would be like, just tell me what to do.
What's going on? Just ask for the first step, Gretchen.
Great. So now I have a quiz.
It's called the habits for happiness quiz.
Again, go to gretchenroovin .com slash quiz and you can take it and it will tell you not just what one should do, but what you Laura should do, because it takes you through actually not that very many questions.
And it really will give you an answer.
It's like, what is the thing that you personally need to work on?
Like, where are you feeling the biggest gap?
What would move the needle the most for you?
So that will give you a personalized answer.
Okay. But if I, but if I couldn't talk to you, if I couldn't ask you to take the quiz and figure out your answer, I would say probably your best bet is to either do something related to relationships or to your body.
Because I mean, ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that to be happy, we need to have strong relationships.
So anything related to deepening your relationships or broadening your relationships is likely to be, make you happier.
So maybe you've always wanted to start a book group.
That would be a, that would probably make you very happy because that's going to deepen your relationship with other people.
Maybe you've been meaning to say like, Oh, I've got these five kids.
I should make a, like a, I should make regular one -on -one outings with them.
That's probably going to make you happier.
That's a good use of your time, energy, and money because it goes to relationships or also with the body.
Because our body, like our physical experience is always going to color our emotional experience.
So anything related to like getting exercise, getting enough sleep, making sure that you're just like physically comfortable.
Like here, like somebody was like, I've been working from home since like 2021 and I still sitting on a dining room chair.
Like, no, you got to get a proper office chair.
Like that, you'll be so much more comfortable in your body as you work.
Like that matters. That's a good place for your time, energy, or money.
Is anything going to your physical experience or like maybe there's a lot of noise where you work and you really need silence.
Okay. You should invest in some noise canceling headphones for you.
That might really, really improve the quality of your work day.
So I would say relationships or your body, those are good places to focus unless you want to take the quiz that might give you a much more refined answer.
Excellent. Excellent.
All right. Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and then we will be back with more from Gretchen.
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Well, I am back. I'm interviewing Gretchen Rubin, who is the cohost of the happier podcast, the author of several books, including better than before.
So Gretchen, one of your, you know, Gretchen phrases, you always talk about an atmosphere of growth.
And I saw on social media that you recently hosted your first Thanksgiving.
Yes, I said, was this a growth experience for you?
It was I feel like it's I feel like it's an adulthood milestone to host a major holiday.
And in truth, I thought that I never would.
I was I was very surprised by myself and very and I feel like I really did show that I have, you know, the the potential to do something that I didn't think that I would ever do.
And that's that really was very gratifying.
Yeah, excellent. And it just had never happened before.
I mean, you went elsewhere for Thanksgiving or?
So I live right around the corner from my in -laws.
My husband, like lives right around the corner from where he grew up.
I mean, you do not even cross the street.
And my mother -in -law is this amazing cook.
And I always go home to my parents in Kansas City for the Christmas holidays.
But we would spend Thanksgiving with my with my husband's family.
And so it was always just like she would cook.
And, you know, that was just the way that it was.
But, you know, over time, it just by my parents and my sister and her family decided to come to New York for Thanksgiving.
And I just thought, OK, this is my opportunity to step up.
And OK. And I have to say, like, I didn't actually cook.
I supervise you, supervise you.
I did the tablescape.
I made sure that we had everything we needed.
I got all the pieces in place.
And then and then then other people did the actual cooking.
I live I live amongst cooks.
Yeah, they were. I would have had to like, you know, grab something out of their hands that they wanted to make.
So that that was that was not the hard part.
The hard part was just like the orchestration.
There's a lot of orchestration of a large of a large Thanksgiving.
But hey, it makes you happy, right, to have lots of people gathered under one roof.
It was so fun. I see why people love it.
You really do. There isn't an excitement and a satisfaction of like knowing that you're the one that's and then, you know, you do your little touches like, you know, we had these like funny name cards that looked like turkeys and it's like, oh, these are so cute.
You know, so it gives you a reason to do, you know, it's a kind of creativity.
It's kind of everyday creativity is like is planning a meal like that.
So I really enjoyed it.
Yeah, it's fun. And it is definitely something that can make a lot of work, but make people very happy.
So, so Gretchen, we always ask on this show, something that you've done recently to take a day from great to awesome.
So is there something you've done recently that's made a day really, really cool?
Oh, what a great question.
I mean, I do this whenever I can.
So it's not like this is novel, but whenever I can do it, I love it.
And that's when I have a same day book.
And the same day because I love, love, love to read.
And I love to binge read where like I if I can have the opportunity where I'm really just sitting on a sofa for a big part of a day just reading.
And a same day book is when I can start and finish a book in one day.
Now, it usually is not a long book.
Yes, but many books are not long.
And I just for some reason, I feel like you experience a book differently where you really take it from beginning to middle to end in one reading.
Like it's like you pick up illusions and sort of like, you just have a better grasp of the details sometimes because it's all just so fresh.
And I think some books lend themselves to reading over time, they kind of sink in in a different way.
You can sort of sometimes you I feel like I'm just gulping down a book as fast as I can.
But I do I feel like whenever I do that, I feel like there's this is like a special treat in a day.
I love that same day book.
I never heard it referred to ever since I was little I've called it the same day.
I don't know that anybody else uses that phrase.
But yeah, now we will.
Okay, yeah, you heard it here.
Look for those the same day books, the ones that are short enough that you could conceivably get through them and give everybody a great same day book read Foster by Claire Keegan.
It is an it's really an Avella.
It's a beautiful book.
It's a beautifully written book.
It's a book that you will just feel like you spent your time well.
Yeah. And maybe just only a few hours on the sofa.
So yeah, we can probably find the space for it.
Exactly. So Gretchen, what are you looking forward to right now?
I am looking forward to watercoloring.
I think that's going to be great.
I think my family is going to get a puppy.
In 2025. That's very exciting.
I'm having I'm planning a big, like, I love to read and I have a children's literature reading group.
Actually, it's like multiple children's literature reading group.
And we are kidding our 20th anniversary in September.
So I'm going to plan a party for that, which I'm very excited about.
It's a big anniversary.
That's one of the things that I've vowed over the last few years is to celebrate anniversaries more.
I think somewhat so often we were focused on the to do and looking forward.
And I'm like, it's good to have a to da and remind ourselves how far we've come.
And for some reason 2025 is it is a year where I have like 15 major anniversaries happening.
And so that's one that I'm really excited about did a lot in 2005 or 2010 or 1995.
I didn't realize that actually, 2005 was a super big year for me.
I realized that I'm like, at the time, I didn't think anything I wasn't aware that I was laying the groundwork for so much to come.
Yeah, well, I love the idea.
So you know, anniversaries aren't just for romance, right?
There, you know, we think about it like a wedding anniversary or something like that, which of course should be celebrated.
But right, there's many other things in life that we may have done for years and years and years as well.
Yeah, no, I mean, the anniversary of like the first time you're in it, like for people who run marathons is like, when did you run your first method?
Or like, I do high intensity weight training.
And I was trying to figure out like, when did I start?
I would like to I would like to get that like the smugness of gloating over how many years I've done it now.
Like sometimes it's good to like sit down and figure out what is the anniversary so that you can you can really celebrate it.
Yeah. Well, I have to only celebrate two years for me on that.
Yes, something, something.
I'm never gonna love it.
But you know, it's it's it's good to do.
It's good to do. And it's so short.
Yes, exactly. So Gretchen, maybe you could give a quick summary for our listeners where they can find you.
Yes. So on my website, Gretchen Reuben calm, there's like just tons of resources and articles, all the quizzes are there.
If you just look for quiz, you can say and I have other quizzes, too, that are super fun.
I love a quiz. I love to I love a self knowledge question.
So I love a quiz. I have my podcast, which is called happier with Gretchen Reuben, which is, as you said, I do it with my sister and we talked about how to be happier, healthier, more productive and more creative.
It's very practical, too.
I have a lot of products now, like I love journals and kind of all kinds of products that you can use to boost your happiness or to make yourself more creative.
And that's, you can go to my website and look on the shop.
I have a newsletter called Five Things Making Me Happy, which is every week I talk about five things making me happy.
And that's just super fun, you know, to shine a spotlight on things that are, you know, make me happy.
And but but basically, if you just look and I'm on social media as Gretchen Reuben in all the places that people go.
So basically, that's it.
Gretchen Reuben calm will take you anywhere you want to go.
Yeah, I was there to say one of the things that made you happy.
This stuck out for me finding out that Anna Wintour had gone to see the Devil Wears Prada or something like that.
You know, it's little but things like that.
The thing is she wore Prada.
She wore Prada to it to the premiere.
And I mean, I just thought that is so funny.
She said I and then they said, what do you think of it?
She said, I love it.
Anything that anything that makes the fashion industry more interesting and glamorous.
I'm for it. And I just thought, wasn't that isn't that funny?
It's a good to be self aware and like knowing knowing oneself is the devil I will wear Prada.
Alright, well, Gretchen, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening for for staying with us through some of my longer episodes as I'm experimenting with this format.
If you have feedback from me about this episode or any others, anything you'd like to see, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam .com.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to before breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas or feedback, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam .com.
Before breakfast is a production of I Heart Media.
For more podcasts from I Heart Media, please visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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