This is the Business English Podcast, Episode 237.
Is it more important to lead or follow? Welcome to the Business English podcast from All Ears English.
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Hey, Aubrey, how's it going today? I'm great, Lindsay.
How are you? I'm feeling good. What do you think is more important for success?
Is it leaders or teams? What do you think?
Interesting. I'm excited to dive into this.
I would say equal, right? A leader can't be successful on their own and a team will really struggle without strong leadership.
Yeah, I think you need both and there are ways to be good at both, right?
And that's kind of what we're getting into today.
Today's question is really interesting because most people ask about how to be a good leader.
But this listener asked what, Aubrey? What did the listener ask?
Giovanni Mendoza on Spotify asked us to talk about how to follow a good leader.
So I kind of love this. Like the assumption is I have a good leader.
I can tell they're competent. They're doing well.
What are some things that I can do to make sure that I'm supporting them?
I'm being a good team member under this excellent leadership.
Yeah, and this is going to be an interesting episode that our listeners could start conversations based on this episode.
It can reflect. I think there are going to be some cultural elements to Aubrey that come out because culture always comes into play when you talk about leadership, right?
And this is just that alone to think about. whether someone's focused only on how do I become a good leader or someone's thinking, okay, how do I, how am I a good team player here?
That alone is cultural. Oh my gosh. Good point.
I'm so glad you said that because, and the fact that I said that that's a weird question, not a weird question.
It's a different, it's a different question.
It's a different question that I wouldn't expect to see.
I think in American culture, you'd be more likely to see how can I be a better leader?
So yeah. I mean, why is that? What, It's interesting.
I do feel like there is a lot more emphasis put on the leader.
They are responsible for the outcome and they are given the credit usually, often if things are going well or if things go poorly, right?
It's sort of on their shoulders. So we do in American culture, we often put the leader on the pedestal a little bit and they get maybe more accolades, but maybe more blame depending on what's happening.
And other cultures might not do that quite as much. yeah really really interesting so we are diving in so today's episode is inspired a few of these ideas came from a what an article in forbes right and who wrote the article when was it john baldoni which he sounds fascinating he's an executive coach and a keynote speaker and author this article was called nine ways to play follow the leader that's kind of fun because this is like a yeah an elementary school game, Follow the Leader, where you just do whatever the person in front of you is doing.
So clever title to that article. It is kind of clever.
Yeah. Kind of having fun with the concept of leadership here.
So we've taken in this episode, our three favorite ones, but then we've taken it in our own direction.
So we're going to provide our own examples, our own ideas.
And so we're using this article as inspiration today, but you're going to hear a lot of stuff personalized based on what we think here, guys.
Okay. Exactly. Yeah. And This article is interesting.
There were tons of tips. Like you said, we've chosen sort of our favorite to dive into.
But it was also interesting. They first and I think this is part of what you were saying, American culture.
Yeah. First, we're diving into like, is this even OK to think about this or should we be focused on the leaders?
And they used an interesting sports metaphor where they were talking about, which is interesting.
We just had the Super Bowl here in the US and they were saying sports teams, if a team member is weak, They just trade them, they transfer them.
And in business, we don't have that option.
We need to, leaders need to figure out how to support their team and provide them resources and training because that's not our first you know, that's never where we want to go first.
It's just like, okay, let's get a new team member who is doing a better job.
Yeah. So just in the title, you could tell that there's some opinion that the writer has about leadership and being part of a team.
So let's get into it. Aubrey, where should we start with today's episode then?
Yeah. So our first tip, and this is for anyone out there who has a strong leader, that's sort of implied here that you have strong leadership, which is amazing and so important.
But as a team member, the first thing you can do is to not be a yes man.
We hear that a yes person where you're always agreeing, even if you have reservations.
If you have really big doubts, to not say anything, to just always follow is not always the best idea.
Right. And this idea came from the article from the author.
But again, we're going to add our own commentary.
I think that this has kind of changed over the years too.
I feel like maybe in the 50s, just post-World War II, Industrial Revolution, I guess that was a little earlier.
But as things were starting, the economy was starting to grow and people were starting to own houses in the suburbs and things, go to work.
There was maybe more of like an industrial mindset at work, I have a feeling, where it was maybe more common just to kind of take orders and get the work done.
But now we're in more of a- Get your paycheck.
Yeah, get your paycheck. Yeah. But now I think it's more on employees to challenge things and ask questions don't you think yeah and i do think that gender roles come into play here because depending on a person's personality you know it's possible that um a female might be less um willing to question and might be more you know wanting to just say yes and keep their head down and do what they're told unfortunately and i also feel like that's something that's evolving right we're moving away from that where there is empowerment for all genders and so luckily whereas if you watch a show from like the 20s i think that was definitely the case Oh, for sure.
And so we're going to add some of our own little caveats.
So the basic advice from the article is don't be a yes person.
Don't be a yes man, which is a term. It's kind of a chunk, right?
Historical chunk in English. First thing that you want to make sure of when you do this is make sure you understand the full context before you disagree.
So Michelle and I talked about this. There are times when I think avoid the like, uh the quick reaction disagreement no that doesn't sound right but it's possible you're making an assumption right yeah so avoid that control like hold back until ask questions first what about this because there is a good chance that the full concept context is not being given Or that the person is kind of worked, the leader has maybe worked through things in a different way.
There's other angles that are affecting it that may not be present in the conversation, right?
So understand the full context. Of course, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but you may need to ask questions first.
Make sure you have the full picture, have all of the context.
You may have your questions answered. You may realize you don't disagree at all once you get answers to those questions and understand the why of what's happening.
Yeah, so don't disagree to disagree. Don't go too far on the other side.
Just to not be a yes person. Yeah, for sure.
Right. What would be the other caveat that we say?
Yeah, so the language you use is important, right?
Just like the episode we had just yesterday with Julie Holunga to say, you know, I recommend or I suggest this stronger language instead of, you know, maybe I think or I believe it has such a different connotation.
It really matters. So go over to the All Ears English podcast and check out three language choices that can undermine your career with Julie Holonga.
Really good episode. She had a TED Talk and she has a lot of interesting things to say.
Okay, so check that one out. Right, Aubrey?
Yes, I love that. I love the language to think about, you know, if I'm going to disagree, ask questions first, and then think about the language you're using to disagree.
So good. So good. Exclusions apply. See details online.
Okay, on to number two. What was the second thing in the article?
Piece of advice from the article, Aubrey.
Yeah, so once you have the full context, like we were saying, to support leaders' decisions once they're made, right?
Once you have all that info, have that full buy-in.
It can be automatic instead of, you know, no one should have to convince you to have buy-in.
Yeah, for sure. And you might still disagree, right?
And maybe you did get the whole context right, and you just still disagree.
But this is the point where that's the point of being on a team.
If things are going in one direction, you do have to kind of move forward with the team.
Otherwise, imagine if you're rowing crew and you're trying to move the boat in one direction, but the rest of the boat is moving forward.
That's not going to work. Right. Your efforts will be pretty futile on that whole team, all of these people rowing, but everything you're doing is working against the rest of the team.
That's the worst case scenario. Yeah, and the other piece is what, Aubrey?
So it's not just supporting in terms of our actions, it's also what?
I think our tone, our words, everything we say, right?
If you're saying things like, I disagree, but I'll do it anyway, things like that are going to create a negative atmosphere, bring down the whole team.
Once you have the full context, you have that buy-in, you should be supportive in everything you say and the tone of what you say. in order to be pedaling, you know, paddling in the right direction.
I love that. That's so good. And anything else we want to say on this particular topic?
Anything that comes to mind, Aubrey, about supporting the leader's decisions after it's made?
I think it's good to point out that, just like this article said, and we definitely believe a leader is only as strong as their team, right?
A leader can't succeed on their own. And it's really big for this tip.
Right. If the team is constantly questioning, is not having that buy in, then no, everyone will fail together.
Mm-hmm. For sure. And we see this on sports teams too, right?
Absolutely. You know, you see the huddles and the basketball games and the football games, and there's a playbook.
You have to follow the playbook. Even if you don't agree with the playbook, you would have designed the play a little differently.
You're still going to follow the playbook, okay?
And then your team's going to win or lose.
Maybe for the next game, you challenge the playbook.
But once the playbook has been written, you go for that.
Yes, we've all seen that sports movie where the player goes rogue against what the coach called what they wanted to happen and it doesn't go well, right?
Something goes poorly and you realize, ooh, they should have followed the coach's advice.
Yeah. Have you ever seen the movie Rudy?
Yes. Oh, so good. I love it. It's a great, we recommend it.
It's so fun watching movies from back in the nineties.
I actually find it so fun because it just feels nostalgic, but guys, Rudy was the story of a, um, a player for Notre Dame football and he was kind of a small guy, but he had so much passion.
It's a typical American success story type deal.
So there's a lot in there. Check out that movie for sure.
Yeah. Awesome. Let's go into number three here, which is When you are wanting to support the leader, often the framework, your mindset, can really affect how on board you are.
And this article had an interesting tip which I hadn't really thought about before.
It was basically saying that you should see the support you're giving as to the team rather than to any one individual rather than to the leader and i can see how this really will create more of that buy-in yeah 100 so to the team or or to the company and some of this has to be done by leadership at the beginning or regularly talking about your vision what is this company or team trying to create are you trying to create a breakthrough in biotech exciting breakthroughs, things you're trying to invent that will change the world.
Focus on that, not so much the person that's deciding that that's what we're doing, right?
Right, exactly. Because if you're working towards success for your company, for your team, rather than for an individual, even if you don't agree with every decision, you don't know whatever the relationship is there you will still be working towards success because you believe in the overarching goals of the entire organization uh-huh and then if things if we don't do this things can go in kind of a sideways direction for our careers and um you know for example we saw with the um the elizabeth holmes story with uh what was the name of her company again it was oh good question It was a blood testing company where they, I mean, there's a movie about it, The Dropout.
She was in court. I think she's, is she currently in jail or is she going to jail soon?
Something happened with her case where. Theranos.
I looked it up. Theranos. Theranos. Yes.
Yeah, she took things in the wrong direction and people did stay loyal to her.
I think there were some. So all of these tips really apply to what happened there because there certainly were people who had questions, who possibly disagreed, who saw the red flags and they just were, you know, yes, people following, just keeping their heads down when they probably should have been whistleblowers.
They should have pointed out the discrepancies.
Yeah, so don't be blinded by, I guess you could say a charismatic leader. right this is what happens in mega churches and cults and scary things where we get blinded because this person is just larger than life and they have a vision and it speaks to us they have charisma like you said charismatic we understand why this happens and so it's so important to stay logical and to be really looking at all the signs make sure that everything adds up And ask questions if something doesn't make sense.
Yeah, don't fully adopt the moral code that that leader has adopted necessarily, right?
Have your own moral code of what's right and wrong and what feel.
Kind of go with your gut in a way. I'm sure that people who worked in Theranos had a gut feeling that things weren't right.
Yeah, you would think so, right? But it is fascinating with all of the times throughout history where that a charismatic leader has led people astray.
So it is a matter of being that person who isn't just a sheep, right?
To really like think things through, make sure you're a supportive part of a team, but don't assume someone's a good leader because they're charismatic.
Right. And then sometimes companies get in trouble.
Like for example, Enron, I don't know if there even was a charismatic leader.
I think that might've been more of a cultural thing. systemic issue within the company around competition so that's a different thing that can happen too right but i think in the end trying to keep the moral code close to your heart as much as possible so i mean that is so we so we grabbed a few ideas from this article and then we took things in our own direction here right aubry any final thoughts as we finish up today's episode Yeah, I think it's just, yeah, we often hear about the importance of good leaders, but at least here in the US, we don't focus so much on how can you follow a good leader?
How can you be a good team member? But that is also vital.
Yeah, it's a fantastic question. It's challenged us to think about things in a different way than I think might be a little countercultural in American culture.
So we love the question. We love these challenging questions, guys.
Keep them coming. Yes, absolutely. Send us your questions.
All right, good stuff. And hit follow so that you don't miss a single episode of Business English.
All right. Great. Awesome. See you next time, Lindsay.
All right. Have a good day. Bye. You too.
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