This is the Business English Podcast, episode 135.
Who pays the bill? Why going Dutch is going out the door.
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Hi, Lindsay. How are you? I'm doing fantastic.
How are you today? Excellent. I have an interesting question for you.
We got this great question from a student, and I'm curious, when you go out with friends, do you usually split the bill?
Or does like one person pay? It's interesting.
I feel like it's trending more in the direction now as I'm getting older, one person just paying.
Just like, I'll get this. Get me the next time.
You know, that kind of thing. It just feels more mature.
Yes. Right. It feels more mature. There's a certain amount of awkwardness with having to like either ask a server to split a check or figure out how much you owe, right?
Oh, no, no, no, never. Yeah. I feel like often one person will pick up the check and everybody will like Venmo them.
They're just like, I know about how much mine was.
I'll Venmo you. Totally. That's the way I would never, unless I'm at like a meetup where there's 12 people I don't know, that would be the only place where I'd want to be like, I got a coffee.
Yeah. Yes. Otherwise, any time other than that, I would never ask to like look at the bill and write my name next.
It's just so college, you know, very much so when you're like pinching pennies.
But I remember when I was in college or even not that long after, I would go out with friends and they would drink and I wasn't drinking.
Oh, yeah, that's hard. That is. And that's hard, too, because it can be very expensive for alcohol.
So I remember sometimes being like, can you speak?
Let the bill just put me on one. Yeah. That's the only thing when it gets awkward is when you don't drink and then because alcohol is very expensive.
Yes. Very, very expensive. We got a really great question about this.
But before we share that question, I want to make sure that you guys, if you're not aware, we have an amazing podcast for anyone preparing for IELTS.
It's called IELTS Energy. If you do follow, you've probably heard my voice.
Jessica and I are the hosts. But if you don't, be sure to follow over there.
And even if you're not studying for IELTS, right, Lindsay?
Lots of great vocab. very cool right so you will guys you don't hear jessica very much on these shows but you get to know jessica over there right and hear aubrey and jessica together which creates another dynamic which is just really cool when we put members of our team together on different podcasts and we see what comes out right so you guys get to learn all this new vocab that you might not learn from me or michelle you'll learn from aubrey and jessica so go and add that show Okay.
Wherever you find your podcast, just search IELTS Energy.
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Sounds good. So today's question, we're going to go ahead and answer this question.
This question is from Velcon Belmont. And this was in Spotify.
And now, guys, by the way, if you do listen in Spotify, you can actually ask your question right there in the episode.
There'll be a place where you can enter your question.
So do that today if you're listening. What is a question that comes up today?
We'll make sure that Aubrey gets that question so we can plan that for another episode.
Yeah. Awesome. Yes. And this question from Valken was great.
What does it mean to meet a person halfway and go Dutch?
Thanks. So we're going to talk about both of these today, very related to the conversation we had in the beginning about splitting the check when you're talking about going Dutch.
Yeah, this is great. And I like how succinct and clear the question is.
So we appreciate that. Yes. And we use both of these expressions in business English all the time.
Yes. Because I feel like this came up for me the most when I was meeting colleagues for business lunches or meeting for happy hour.
This idea of going Dutch we're going to talk about, but I more likely would just say the idea of splitting the check, the idea of determining who pays.
I feel like go Dutch is getting a little antiquated.
What do you think, Lindsay? Yeah, I agree.
I do think it's something that our parents' generation might have said more.
My mom says it all the time. She's like, let's go to dinner.
We'll go Dutch. It means that person is going to pay for their own meal or drinks.
But yeah, you're right. I wouldn't say that.
I don't think it's like our generation has kind of kicked that expression to the curb.
Do we know what the origin of this is, by the way?
Yes, I looked it up. It's interesting. It stems from restaurant dining etiquette in the Western world.
It can also be called Dutch date, Dutch treat.
I've heard that before, too. Like, let's go Dutch treat.
But what's interesting, you would maybe assume that this comes from Denmark, where we're talking about Holland, where we're talking about the Dutch, right?
But it's not. It's an Americanism. I'm not sure exactly how.
Originally, people are thinking that maybe it was from the Pennsylvania Dutch.
So people who came over from the Netherlands to the United States who possibly had a custom of bringing their own food to gatherings like a potluck.
And so going Dutch was sort of like what we now say potluck, meaning everyone bring their own food.
Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense, right?
Because the Dutch settled, especially New York, right?
New York was New Amsterdam. But it is interesting to point out that it certainly wasn't an expression that came from Europe.
The first instance of it is in 1873 in a newspaper in Missouri.
So it's definitely an Americanism. That's interesting.
I was kind of thinking maybe it was a post the Great Depression expression, but it's not.
It showed up before. Sometimes I think about how my grandmother lived through the Great Depression.
I think about how that affected their mentality.
You know how they thought about things. She used to save like little rubber bands and not throw them out, even like in the 90s.
Right. Because it just impacted her so greatly to be in the great the Great Depression.
I keep wanting to say the Great Recession, but it's the Great Depression.
Depression is so much worse than the Great Recession.
So very interesting stuff. And they had the expression, waste not, want not.
So they just wouldn't waste anything. They would save anything they could maybe use.
You're right. It created this mentality of wanting to be able to not waste, you know, not take anything for granted.
And like you were saying, sort of the older generation was more comfortable with the idea of saying, you pay for yourself, I'll pay for mine.
Because I feel like anyone who lived through the Great Depression, or if their parents did, they sort of had a different mentality about spending money.
So no question, the Great Depression maybe spurred this phrase on, or just market conditions in the 1900s, early 1900s.
No question. I mean, sometimes we can't separate language from history, right?
It's just... But I think it's interesting to point out, I'd love to ask you about this, Lindsay, but I feel like I want you guys to understand what it means when someone asks you like, should we go Dutch?
Should we go Dutch treat? But as far as if you're doing a business lunch with someone, I would not recommend using this phrase because I think it sounds a little antiquated and almost a little rude to talk about money, especially at the outset.
I feel like, what do you think? Does that feel like a polite thing to ask, Lindsay?
You mean like when you first sit down? before getting before if you invite someone to lunch say let's go to lunch we'll go Dutch treat or something like that I don't even know the phrase Dutch treat to be honest it sounds like you wrote here it's pejorative as well is that right it looks like you wrote that in the notes I think yes yeah for sure I never say that but Dutch I yeah um we did another episode in allers English a while ago about when you invite someone are you actually uh like saying I'm going to pay for you?
Or are you just saying, hey, let's go out for lunch?
In American culture, it kind of means let's go out for lunch.
It doesn't mean I'm going to pay for you.
Yeah. And that's probably different in every culture, right?
Especially in like in Spanish, I think invite means I'm going to pay for you.
So that's something to watch out for. Your question is opening the conversation by saying that, like, would you talk about the bill before you start eating?
And would you say, do you want to split it?
Yeah. Or when you're at work and wanting to invite someone to lunch, I would find it a little off-putting if someone said, you know, oh, let's go out to lunch.
We'll go Dutch or something like that. Sort of any mention of who's going to pay or not.
That's, I think, what's sort of being pushed out of business culture.
I agree. I agree. I think there's a professionalism in... Well, I think it's always good to be... If you can, if you have the means to be generous and to offer to pay, even in a business launch, it depends on who's the client, who's the... There's a lot there.
But better to err on the side of don't talk about it from the beginning.
It sounds like something that would come out of a 1950s sitcom or something.
Let's go Dutch. Let's go Dutch. We'll go Dutch.
It's just really old. Yeah, you're right.
And maybe kind of rude. Yeah. Yeah, or at least there's a chance that it could be interpreted that way, right?
So in order to embrace the modern business English world, we know it's evolving, things are changing.
I definitely think if this is common in your culture to say from the outset, who's going to pay or to ask that you would in the least in American business English culture that you would eliminate that and just say, want to go to lunch without any mention of who might pay?
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And just assume that you may end up paying for the whole lunch.
Um, now it's different if you're with a group, right?
If you invite four people out for lunch, I don't think the expectation is going to be that you're going to pay for everyone.
Unless they're your clients and it's company money, right?
Yeah, it's tricky, right? There are all kinds of options.
I feel like you definitely kind of have to feel it out.
You can either offer to pay and then see if they say, oh, no, no, you know, maybe they'll put their card in two and ask the server to split it in half.
That happens a lot. Yeah. Or you can ask the server to split the bill in the first place.
Someone might do that. And but it is like you said, Lindsay, if you are able to be generous and just offer to pick it up, that's the least awkward of all the situations.
Right. And then anyone who feels if they feel like they should pay for their part, they'll Venmo you.
Yeah, I mean, I think Michelle and I have talked about this concept, the reciprocity principle that we all have kind of hardwired into our brains.
And you just have to kind of sometimes the classy thing to do is just trust that that other person has that in mind, too.
Right. They'll get the next one. Yeah, they'll get the next one or they'll get dessert after or drinks after or something.
Right. We have to kind of especially in business, because that will be looked upon as more reciprocity. respectful and like you'll look like a higher class citizen if you do I don't mean like wealthier person I mean class classier yeah that's a really good point especially if you're taking out a client and trying to make a good impression then you definitely want to just pick up the bill right just take the check put your card and yeah I mean yeah create that relationship Yeah, I would say your company probably would give you instructions on how to do that.
You probably have a company credit card, certain protocols on that, right?
But if it's just a personal lunch, I think it's classier just to err on the side of offering and then hope that they just make it even later.
Or maybe you don't go out with them again if they don't get that, right?
If you're paying every time and they never... Yeah, that's awkward.
Maybe you just don't go out at lunch anymore.
That's right. Yeah, that would be very weird.
I think most people... with any social intelligence would pick up on that and they would say, oh no, it's my turn.
Let me get this. Yes, right. Oh, you got the last time.
I'll get this one. Yeah, for sure. Okay.
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So what would be our second kind of thing we need to talk about here, Aubrey?
Second expression. So in Velkan's question, he also asked about what does it mean to meet a person halfway?
And this is a little different, right? This, it means to compromise.
So if you, this happens all the time at work, right?
If you're having to give up something to get what you want, we often talk about this in negotiations for sure.
We might say, okay, you got to meet me halfway here.
And that means you're going to need to compromise something.
Yeah. I mean, they say that the sign of a successful negotiation is that no one is completely disappointed and no one is completely happy with what they got.
Both people feel like they compromise and they got something.
That's a good negotiation. Exactly. Another example sentence here.
If they're not willing to meet us halfway, I'm not sure we'll be able to close the deal.
This happens a lot if one party is really driving a hard line, right?
Not willing to compromise. Sometimes you can't ever, you know, sometimes it just falls apart and the deal doesn't happen.
Yeah, and maybe that's how it should be, right?
If you can't meet in the middle. Absolutely, somewhere in the middle.
And then another example is the seller is asking for a million and we offered 500K.
So we'll meet them halfway and pay 750K.
Yeah. So we often will talk about this with numbers, with statistics.
If we say we're meeting someone halfway, it's like we have the amount they offered, what we want to pay.
We'll meet them in the middle. We'll meet them halfway.
Split the difference is another idiom. Split the difference.
That's a great one. That's one that's still alive and kicking.
And I feel like our parents' generation also said that.
That's kind of a fun one, isn't it? Split the difference.
Yeah, exactly. And we talk about this, especially with numbers like, oh, okay, well, this is how much I want to pay.
This is what I have to pay. Let's split the difference.
We're just saying, let's meet in the middle.
Yeah, I love that expression. It's fun. Maybe that'll be our title today.
We'll see. We'll see. Oh, I like that. All right.
So a little role play, Aubrey, what do you think?
Yes, you and I are meeting for a business lunch in this role play.
Let's see how it would look in a conversation.
You okay with Dutch treat? Sure, no problem.
I can get it if you want to Venmo me. perfect by the way i think the jameson deal is closing today well then this is a celebratory lunch congratulations i wasn't sure if it was going to work out since their original offer was so much higher than we could pay but finally they met us halfway nice so we used all of these even the one that's a little bit antiquated you never know when you have a Client or a customer or a coworker who's a little older, like my parents' generation, would absolutely still say this, either go Dutch or Dutch treat.
But you guys, if you're not watching on YouTube, you need to just to see Lindsay's expression.
It was like painful for her to have to say, you okay with Dutch treat?
It was like it was brooding you to have to say it.
Yeah. Also, I know if we're saying it's rude, it's pejorative, we don't want to... offend anyone?
I don't know what it goes back to, right?
We don't know the reference. Well, part of it is just in American culture, we just avoid talking about money.
And that's, it feels... Oh, I see what you're saying.
Right? It's a little awkward. I thought it was linked to something historically.
Oh, no, no. Just that we're talking about money when often in American culture, at least, we avoid that.
We avoid bringing up money. Got it, got it, got it.
And just if you do feel like you have to use the expression go Dutch, you could also say you're okay to go Dutch, right?
You're okay to go Dutch. That would be very casual, right?
Yes, right. Exactly. And then we said, let's see, you said meet us halfway.
Your original offer was so much higher than we could pay, but they finally met us halfway.
So that means they compromised. Maybe they met in the middle, split the difference so that the deal could work out.
Aubrey, are you a good negotiator? Are you good at that kind of thing?
Do you enjoy negotiations? No, I don't think so.
I'm thinking of sort of that like bargaining with sometimes in certain cultures, they'll price things higher, expecting you to offer less or maybe at garage sales in the United States too.
And I'm really terrible about that. I usually just give them the price they've asked because they don't want to have to offer lower.
That's so funny. Yeah, I get that. What about you?
Are you good at negotiations? I'm trying to get better at it in business these days, but I think I reveal too much.
What do they say? I reveal too many of my cards or reveal my cards too early.
You'll say like, well, this is the most we're willing to pay.
Okay, I guess we'll go with that. We're just kind of giving them too much context.
Like the more context people have in a negotiation, although they say good negotiation, you're supposed to give context so people can understand how they could provide value for you while not losing what they want.
So anyways. It's tricky when it comes to negotiation because it depends on who you're working with and how much they're really looking to make things work for both sides, right?
Or are they trying to take advantage if you give too much context?
So that really depends too. Yeah. Do they think of it as like a zero something they want to take all or do they want to create value and split the pie, right?
And that's who you want to be working with, right?
Let's find someone who is trying to make things work for both of us.
Yeah. So lots of things came out of today's episode, Aubrey.
This is a good cultural episode about attitudes towards talking about who's going to pay.
Go back and try to check out that episode, guys, from All Ears English, where we talked about inviting someone.
What's the other any other takeaway today, Aubrey, for our listeners?
Interesting to think about the way that your culture handles and is comfortable talking about money might not be the same for every culture.
So definitely something to look into wherever you are working.
If you're working in business English, this is something that's good to know.
You don't want to accidentally say or do something that will be considered very impolite.
And something like going Dutch, I feel like the current generation is starting to feel that way.
So these phrases are constantly evolving.
I wouldn't recommend using that one. Yeah, it's complicated, but good stuff today.
Thanks for hanging out today and talking about this.
Very interesting topic, Aubrey. Yeah, for sure.
Awesome. See you next time, Lindsay. All right.
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