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Hello my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything.
Thanks for joining us today.
With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world.
I'm your host, Kwame Christian.
I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute.
Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives.
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And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.
Adrian, thanks for joining us today.
My pleasure, Kwame.
How you doing? Man, I am great.
It is a pleasure to have you.
And how would you just get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, so I've been in the digital transformation and creative space for about the past 10 plus years.
I've been around tech companies.
I've been involved in e -commerce agencies.
And of course, I've been around working in the audio industry.
Primarily, over the past few years, I've been involved recently in a podcast space.
I actually launched my first podcast by accident when I used to run not only a radio station, when I also had my own radio show back in 2011.
So what would happen was, this is when I was back at university.
I would go around with a dictaphone, recording students, trying to create extra content for my radio show that I have back at university.
What I didn't realize was that this actually ended up being podcasts without realizing it, because I'm recording prerecorded content and I'm playing it on air.
But I'm also keeping up content for my Facebook page at the time.
So yeah, that was a great experience.
But yeah, I've been around the creative and digital transformation space for the past 10 plus years, working around business strategy, marketing, e -commerce, and audio production.
But right now, I'm primarily focused on consulting, small to medium businesses, helping tech companies and startups in the African space, and also helping people in the world of podcasting to launch grow and publish their own podcasts as well.
This is great. And everybody, you need to check out Adrian's work.
We're gonna put links in the description.
The reason why I wanna have Adrian on the podcast today is because he is an exceptional interviewer.
I've been on his show twice.
I think there's a lot that we can learn from an expert interviewer like Adrian, when it comes to just connecting with people, creating a strong, respectful connection with person on the other side.
One thing that I didn't hear you say, I wanna make sure you say it very clearly though.
Tell us about the podcasting school and the sound of Accra.
Yes Kwame. So back in 2021, even 2020, podcasting started to rise and demand unprecedentedly because of the COVID pandemic.
We were all locked down.
People were looking for a hobby or they wanted something else to consume their time.
You know, a year after 2020, which is when I launched my first podcast, The Sound of Accra Podcast.
I basically decided that I was gonna launch a course because I have people, you know, reach me through the social media, speak to me in person, asking for coaching tips and advice and help with us launching, growing and publishing their own podcasts.
And then also I had actually tested a marketing with a very short 15 minutes course on one of these course marketplaces.
The results I got was astonishing.
Like I wasn't even expecting people to enroll on that course, it's about a hundred or 200 people.
So I was like, you know what?
If I put that much effort Kwame into a podcast course that was pretty much bad in my eyes, how well will I be able to do if I put in my, all my effort into a high quality podcast course?
So I created a seven hour podcast 2021 called Podcast A2Z.
And this particular podcast course was based on helping up and coming podcasters or even existing podcasters get their first thousand plus listeners in terms of, you know, because reason why I chose thousand plus listeners Kwame is because on podcasting world, if you want to monetize by CPMs, if you
want to monetize by the traditional route, which is cost per many CPMs, et cetera, you need to have a minimum of thousand downloads per month, which is what I'm doing, you know, with my niche podcast.
So I decided I'll call the course Podcast A2Z helping you get your first thousand plus listeners.
So that course did really, really well.
Currently now it's got about 600 students.
And then I decided that recently I was going to spend more time in the podcast industry.
I wanted to go a bit more full time into the industry because I'm so passionate about it.
I'm launching another podcast.
I'm just so obsessed with the industry.
I know what's happening.
And I just want to be able to help more students because I realized that I'm more of a community -based person and it's really important to build such communities because I also realize Kwame that there isn't really too many podcast communities out there.
There's lots of people trying to learn and lots of people doing podcasts, but there isn't really much of a community.
So my school Podcast A2Z is going to be a school, not just to help people launch, grow, and publish their own podcasts.
It's going to help people to network with each other, grow with each other, learn with each other, but also it's going to help them to be the best possible podcast that they can be because this industry is only getting big and better just as we discussed before we started recording, Kwame.
Absolutely, man, this is great.
This is great. Now, when you think about the keys to interviewing, when you are meeting somebody for the first time as a podcast host, what are the things that you try to do at the beginning of that interaction to make your guests feel comfortable?
That's a great question, Kwame.
So I think it's important to have icebreakers on your belts.
Always, for me, it's important to do as much research as I can on that guest because the more you know about that person, the more you know what will pique their interest, the more you know what will help them to make them feel at ease.
For example, I know you like cinnamon crunch toast cereal, so I remember I brought that up in one of our first interviews to kind of make you at ease.
And I knew you went on TED talks and you did a fantastic talk.
Go watch it, guys, on YouTube.
And yeah, so for me, it's important to break the ice, make them feel comfortable, ask them questions about what they're up to, what they're doing.
And then it's important to also establish common ground.
So what interest do you and that person have so that you can use to quickly, you know, establish some common ground so that you can move forward with the interview?
So I think these are some important straightforward tips that every interviewer should be using.
I love this. And this, what's really cool about this, Adrian, is that this is something that's easily replicable for people who are aspiring podcasters, but also just everyday people having everyday conversations.
We want to make sure at the beginning we're making people feel comfortable and there are certain things that we can do.
And what's great about this is that you're doing it in an authentic way that allows you to connect on a human level.
When you're doing this and you do a good job of establishing that rapport early on, what would you say are like the biggest psychological benefits?
Yeah, that's a great question, Kwame.
So when you're able to establish that rapport earlier on, it just gives you momentum.
And sometimes as interviewers, it's so easy to, you know, have a whole bunch of questions written out and you want to be able to kind of like ask all the questions that you've written now and usually have a premeditated workflow that you want to get through so that the interview is picture perfect,
how you've visualized it before you took it.
But really and truly, Kwame, when you build out rapport beforehand, it just gives you the momentum to just take the interview on an unexpected twist where when you go down that path, the interview ends up being better than you actually thought it was going to be, you know.
Because really and truly, a lot of people, sometimes some people that want to come in, one of my shows and they want me to interview them.
Sometimes they want me to ask some questions, certain questions, and sometimes they want us to agree on certain questions.
But I like to be a little bit more spontaneous and I like to like the interview have a life of its own so that it can be a lot more exciting and it can be a lot more entertaining for both not only just the interviewer and the interviewee, but also for the audience listening as well.
I love this, because this is something that's really underappreciated when it just comes to conversations in general, momentum.
And momentum is this nebulous energy that we all can understand exists, but we can't really put our hands around what it really means.
But we know it's there, right?
We know it's there when it's there.
We know it's not when it's not, right?
And it helps you to flow into the conversation.
And what do you do in the middle of a conversation if things are going well and then maybe you ask a question they're not that comfortable with or they don't know the answer, whatever it happens to be, or maybe there's an interruption.
What is it that you can do in the middle of a conversation to regain some of that positive momentum?
Yeah, I guess once again, it's similar to the question you asked earlier on.
I mean, again, it's going back to trying to make them feel at ease.
It's going back to trying to calm them nerves and trying to break the ice in some sort of way.
I think there was a time when I was interviewing one person.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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And this was actually in Africa.
This is when I was shooting in brand new season for the Sandoval Crowd podcast, which is a podcast which we, which we, where we interview Ghanaian entrepreneurs and creatives around the world.
And I had a high profile guest.
She's well known in the continent and in the country.
And it got to a point where I asked her a question and then she kind of reacted in a certain way.
But then I kind of changed the subject a bit and then I kind of focused on her just letting her know that she's doing a great job and just let her know that, by the way, we like the fan that you're using to fan yourself, you're doing really, really cool.
And then I just changed the subject and then I just kind of like brought her, kind of like struck to ego a little bit.
And then I kind of brought her back to earth and then I just quickly moved on to another question.
So sometimes you just have to kind of like use the environment and use what you know on that person to try and steer the ship off a rocky course back into its course so that you can still try and turn it into a good interview.
And sometimes this makes for great interviews because usually there's interviews sometimes that were so used to, were so used to, were so used to predictable, traditional conventional interviews where sometimes we have to think whether it's as interviewers, as podcasts, as journalists, whatever you
want to call it Kwame, you have to think about what can we do to make this a little bit different?
What can we do to throw the audience off a little bit and to throw in a little bit of a curve ball so that this becomes even more interesting interviews.
So there's always something you can do to redeem the interview even during the interview if you can be witty enough, if you can think fast enough.
I love this. And with this response, listeners, I want you to pay attention to the fact that Adrian recognizes when there is momentum and when there's not momentum.
The momentum is important, the flow of the conversation is important.
So once he loses it, he doesn't try to like force it back on a really tough subject.
He lightens the mood and then redirects to something where there might be more momentum.
And so this is a really good way to showcase this skill because we can recognize that as podcasters, our goal is to establish rapport and help the person feel comfortable and share and allow the conversation to flow.
In a negotiation, we might need to recognize that we've hit an impasse, but we might need to revisit that tough part of the conversation.
But if we're in the rapport building stage, it might just be chit chatting, we're trying to get to know somebody, then there's probably no reason to go back onto a part where somebody's uncomfortable.
If they're uncomfortable, adjust.
If you're in that kind of low stakes element of the conversation.
So this is expert level.
This is really helpful, especially the fact that you said, you pointed out something about her that you admired.
And so I think that's a really important emotional payment that helps to make the person not only feel more comfortable, but also feel more positively toward you.
Because one of the best ways to get somebody to like you more is to be very clear about articulating how and why you like them.
So you found something that you liked, gave the compliment and quickly shifted the subject.
I think that's a brilliant approach.
Yeah, I think it's also really important to know who you're talking to.
So if you're dealing with a high profile guest, of course you definitely want to do your research and you definitely want to know what calms them down.
You definitely want to maybe focus on strike striking the ego a bit more, because that's kind of like the kind of environment they're used to being in.
Whereas maybe with a more regular average guest, maybe you may some say something that might be not as pleasing to them, but they may still be very grateful or very appreciative that they're on your particular show.
So they won't take to offense as much as maybe someone that's a bit more high profile would, yeah.
Agreed, no, you're absolutely right.
And one of the things that you mentioned too, was being willing to explore an unexpected path during the conversation.
And that's something that can throw people a lot of times, but what I've recognized and I've heard so many times on the show is that great negotiators embrace surprise.
They recognize that unexpected things will happen and they flow with it.
So when something surprising comes up in a conversation, first of all, just mentally, how do you prepare yourself to embrace surprise in those conversations?
You have to be ready for any eventuality Kwame.
And when I have an interviewee or someone in the show, say something and I'm quite surprised on what they say, I just kind of try and mirror the emotions so that I can keep the tone, I can keep the pace of the interview so that I myself am not thrown by the interview and I'm not disturbing the energy
of the interview. I think every interview has a different type of energy and when is that surprise or when is that curve ball is thrown at you rather than you throwing at the other person, I think you should be always in a driving seat as the podcast or as the interviewer.
So I think it's important for you to find the way to mirror that energy back, to find a way to mirror that conversation that's taking place so that you can continue to have a smooth course throughout the whole conversation of the podcast so that this can still become a great conversation for the whole
audience and for the listeners.
That's great, man, because you're absolutely right.
It's almost like improv.
With improv, it's always yes and.
Somebody gives you a suggestion, you have to roll with it, whatever it is.
And that's kinda how it is in the podcast too.
You can't, they can't come with a certain level of energy or emotion that's unexpected.
And then you as a podcaster, just kind of like negates that energy.
Then it creates awkwardness in the room.
And so it's a really tough thing to be able to be, to flow with the energy that you're receiving and then take the conversation in a different direction.
And the way that we do that, like you said, is by staying in the driver's seat of the conversation.
Now here's the thing.
You, I've been on your show twice.
Like it doesn't feel like I'm being controlled.
It doesn't feel like I'm being manipulated or pushed in different directions.
Like it feels like a mutual exchange, but I recognize you're an expert interviewer.
So you're always in the driver's seat.
The person doesn't feel like they are being driven or forced in a certain direction.
So how do you maintain that control while still letting the interviewee kind of feel safe and flow?
Yeah, I think it's also, I mean, there are, there's times where, I mean, I mean, we've done over a hundred conversations on the Sound of a Crawl podcast, by the way.
And I think we're now on 120 episodes.
And Kwame, thank you so much.
And one thing I've definitely learned for sure is that you need to kind of know when you can jump back into the conversation and take back that control.
So sometimes when someone is talking about something, you can quickly, if there is a specific keyword or there's a key moment that they're talking about, you can quickly jump back in the conversation, say that particular thing that you wanted to say, and then steer the conversation to where you wanted to
steer it back to. So it's like a little bit like, I don't know, someone's come and they've taken your keys or they've taken something and you go run back for the keys to your Mercedes, and then you've got it back.
And then you're like, no, I'm gonna drive this car.
You're not gonna drive this car anymore.
So a little bit like hide and seek.
Sometimes it is a little bit funny or frustrating when a guest is going on longer than you want them to go so that you can kind of try and make the interview whether it's 20, 30, an hour long.
I know you can edit out, but I do like to have the whole conversation pretty much done within my timeframe.
But yeah, it's about knowing when to take back that control in the conversation, whether you're using key moments, key phrases, whether you're using body language to take that control.
Yeah, you just look out for the right opportunity to take back the control, but make it seem seamless.
It has to be seamless.
It can't be interruptive so that the energy, the flow of the conversation continues to be natural and organic on me.
Absolutely, and I love that we keep going back to flow.
It's so important because we can feel it, right?
And the conversation will have a current and you have to, but the cool thing about water is that water just takes the shape of whatever vessel it's in, right?
So it has a flow, but okay, I didn't know we were gonna go that direction, but the conversation just flows.
And focus on that key moment part that you said.
I love the fact that you talked about the key moments because let's say somebody talks for one or two minutes, right, everything is cohesive, everything that they say is important, but that doesn't mean that everything that they say is of equal importance.
And so what you're doing is when you hear it, you're listening, you demonstrate that you're listening by summarizing and then you focus in on one or two key points and then you expand on those key points.
So the person feels like you're listening.
So they feel validated in that way.
So they feel a little bit more comfortable relinquishing control because they're like, Adrienne's been listening to me, you see, he identified some of those key points and he cares about me and is interested in me enough to ask me a question on that key point.
And so I'm much obliged.
So it's a great way to like be in control of a conversation without being controlling during the conversation.
I love it. That's the difference being controlled a conversation and don't be controlling of the conversation.
I think that's definitely the differentiator right there.
Okay, so when I started the podcast, you know, nowadays when people say, oh yeah, when I listen to your podcast, I always go back to the beginning.
And I always, I like to start from the early episodes.
When people say that to you, how does that make you feel?
You know what? I've only had one or two people come up to me and say, hey, look, I'm going to listen to you a whole show and I'm going to listen right from the very beginning.
So I actually don't get a lot of that.
But why do tell not just like students or people that want to start podcasts or even YouTubers, even other content creators is the importance of creating evergreen content.
Content that's always going to be relevant, whether it's 10 years from now, five years from now, one year from now, a few months from now, a few weeks from now, because that content is going to keep people coming back.
That content is going to keep people coming back or even discovering and finding your content, you understand?
And this is the importance of building momentum.
We've gone back to momentum Kwame, building momentum, having that build momentum and this will also add to your fly wall.
So, you know, when you have content that's evergreen and you have content that can be discoverable or searchable, it might not be as popular right now, but maybe in 10 weeks time, Google Trends is going to say this particular piece, this phrase or this particular piece of content is going to be very
in high demand. And before you know it, you've got lots of searches and the fly wall is going to kick in.
You know, that piece of work that you put in 10 weeks ago is going to grow a lot more 10 weeks later.
Yep. I love it. I love it.
And you're absolutely right.
And I think all of us should start thinking of ourselves as micro brands, not even just people who are entrepreneurs, but just people in general, because that positions you well.
So think about how you said, hey, all right, before I meet with my guests, I'm going to do a little bit of research.
That happens in negotiations and business meetings, all those things.
People are going to look you up to figure out who you are.
And so you need to be in control of that narrative.
So somebody who might not identify, self -identify as a content creator.
You are creating content if you post things.
And if you're not creating content, you're missing out on a massive opportunity to control the narrative.
Because we might say, oh, it's nice to be mysterious, go in as like an unknown quantity.
Well, we know that in especially intense situations, if somebody doesn't know about you, that ambiguity is going to be scary.
They're going to assume the worst.
But if you can start to control that narrative and start to reaffirm the fact just in the marketplace by what you're posting on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on whatever it happens to be, that, hey, I'm a solid person.
I care about my family.
I care about my job.
I'm thinking a lot because I'm sharing articles.
These are my thoughts on the articles.
And you're just constantly reaffirming to the marketplace that you have value.
That alone makes you more persuasive and makes your conversation easier, even though it's not officially part of the conversation.
Absolutely. It all connects the dots.
It's bringing everything together.
Exactly. Man, this is good.
This is good, man. Well, we're coming up on time.
I appreciate this. And I think listeners, you can see why this man is starting a podcasting school.
So before you go, Adrian, can you remind the listeners about your company, about the podcast and the upcoming podcast in school too?
Yeah, absolutely. So Kwame, so it's called A2Z Podcasting.
We should have a website up soon, A2Z podcasting .com.
And essentially it's just me, me and my team, we're gonna be having a community of podcasters who want to learn, grow and published their own podcasts.
So there'll be cohorts learning taking place.
And hopefully there'll be starting from spring.
There'll be self -paced courses.
There'll be embedded within a community and people can also purchase standalone.
And then there will also be community -based learning and sharing taking place as well.
So a whole community of podcasts and just learning, growing and sharing together.
And yeah, we just want to create more value in a podcasting world and help more people that our podcasts or existing podcasts is just to continue to learn, share and grow.
This is great, man.
I'm happy for you. This is really exciting.
And I really appreciate you coming on the show.
Appreciate it Kwame, thank you for your time.
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