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We did a brain scan study and we did find there are some specific regions of the brain which are very activated when someone's experiencing ASMR.
Hey everyone, it's Rosie here.
Welcome back to Radio Headspace.
So have you ever felt that strange tingling sensation when somebody whispers or when you hear the sound of pages turning?
It's called ASMR, and for millions of people, it's become a way to relax and fall asleep.
But what's actually happening in the brain when we experience ASMR?
To help answer that, I'm joined today by Dr. Craig Richard.
He spent years studying the science behind ASMR, and I have to say it's fascinating.
I really hope you enjoy this conversation.
Thank you, Dr. Richard, for being on Radio Headspace.
I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today.
If you don't mind sharing with us and our listeners who you are and what you do.
Craig Richard.
I'm a professor of physiology at Shenandoah University in Virginia.
I'm the founder of the website, asmaruniversity.com.
I wrote a book about ASMR called Brain Tingles, and I'm host of the calming podcast called history.
Tell us how you got into this.
What made you go into studying ASMR?
I can give you the exact year.
It was in 2013.
I was in my kitchen listening to a podcast, and the episode in that podcast was about autonomous sensory meridian response.
And that sounded like something physiological.
But but I'm a physiologist and I'd never heard that term before.
And I was about to delete the episode when they mentioned that people who experience ASMR tend to feel super relaxed by Bob Ross.
And that's when my eyes lit up.
I'm like, oh my goodness.
I remember being a kid coming home from school turning on Bob Ross, putting a pillow on the floor, and then just feeling getting like out, like just super relaxed and falling asleep halfway through before he was done with the painting.
And as they gave more examples in this podcast, i was like okay, whatever this is, i experience it.
And when i finished listening to the episode, my thought was i can't wait to read about the science behind this.
And in 2013, there was not a single published study.
And that's when i said all right time for me, as a scientist, to kind of focus on this, because i do believe in it, i experience it.
And so that's when I launched ASMRUniversitycom.
That's when I started doing collaboration research studies with other individuals and started collecting data about this.
And it's just put me on this journey of studying ASMR.
Well, I mean, you kicked us off right at the perfect spot.
Give the audience a description of what ASMR is.
Yeah, it's kind of confusing.
The letters stand for Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response.
It's a deeply relaxing feeling that may also have these like brain tingles that travel down your scalp and the back of your neck and down your spine.
And I would say it's most often stimulated when you're either in the presence of a kind or caring person or you're watching a video and the person's like looking into the camera or and acting in a kind and caring way.
And there's something about when you get that positive personal attention from someone that you trust, someone that you feel comfortable with.
That puts you in this deep relaxed state that may also stimulate brain tingles.
You also break this down on a very popular TED Talk that you did, which we can link in the description of this episode, where you talk about the sort of mechanisms of ASMR.
One of the things that was most fascinating to me was this positive personal attention, and I was hoping you can talk a little bit more about that, because for me, I grew up watching Bob Ross or Mr Rogers and I just remember feeling that those shows created this entire experience, and as I was watching you speak about this, it started to make sense.
So if you don't mind sharing the sort of trajectory of why that is.
Yeah, those are two great examples.
Both of those individuals, Bob Ross and Fred Rogers, or Mr Rogers.
What they do in their shows is they turn to the camera a lot.
And that's that personal attention, that they're not just talking it feels like to an audience, but because they look in the camera, you feel the personal attention, which is the same thing you'll see in popular asmr videos on youtube or wherever you watch them is there's something about that eye contact?
But it can't just be personal attention, because you can imagine someone yelling at you, which is personal attention.
It has to be someone that has this kindness to them or you know that they're trying to do something positive for you, and what that is is it starts building trust and Even though it's very logical to say well, if someone's talking kindly to you, you know you shouldn't run away from them because they may be helping you.
It seems that we're hardwired for those kind of stimuli, which is when someone's giving us positive personal attention and they're talking calmly like Bob Ross or Mr Rogers.
Our brain is just unconsciously saying this person seems to care for me.
I think I'll stay put. and I'll stay focused on them.
In other words, your brain is telling you don't run away, because our brain is always trying to decide when we meet someone, is this someone I should run away from and protect myself and try to survive?
Or is this someone that may be beneficial to me?
So that relaxation you feel for positive personal tension is just your brain's way of saying this person may be beneficial to you.
Stay put.
Have there actually been studies on videos that give that type of personal specialized attention?
Like eye contact in the camera, like this kind of... Well, it's the template of all ASMR videos.
So, in a way, the research of the importance of positive personal attention is the success of every single ASMR video.
They have millions of viewers and followers.
And it's because of that combination of factors of in almost every single one of them, they're talking softly, they're talking gently, they're looking into the camera and you feel like they are talking specifically to you.
And that is the historical foundation of how we became to understand that there is something such as ASMR.
Yeah, can we talk a little bit more about what the internal process like, what is the physiological process that is happening as we're watching and listening, and maybe talk about the importance of the visual and the ocular?
No, ocular is visual.
The auditory.
Right.
Yeah.
ASMR can be stimulated through different stimuli.
As you point out, it could be just sound.
It can also include visuals.
And the third one that a lot of people forget is touch.
And that's because ASMR videos are so popular.
You know the person's video can't touch you, but you still experience ASMR.
So there is sound, visuals, and touch that can stimulate ASMR.
All three of those types of stimuli are ways at which someone else can convey to you that they're not a threat to you.
For what is exactly happening in the brain, that gets a little difficult. to figure out.
I was a co-author in a paper where we did a brain scan study of someone in an fMRI machine, which basically looks at which regions of the brain are active when someone is in the state of experiencing ASMR.
And we did find there are some specific regions of the brain which are very activated when someone's experiencing ASMR.
And some of those regions are rich in receptors for the neurohormone oxytocin.
And now we're getting more into the hypothetical, because no one has measured oxytocin.
But it does make the most sense of what might be happening in the brain during ASMR, because oxytocin is the neurohormone your brain loves to release when you're in the presence of someone who cares for you, whether that's a parent, a best friend, even your pet dog can do it to you.
Cars release ASMR.
So any of those things when you're in the presence of someone you feel comfortable with, your brain releases oxytocin.
Is there a way to measure oxytocin?
Yeah, it's tough.
It's hard to measure the levels in the brain, but there are amounts that are released in the peripheral or in the blood.
So you could measure to see if there's some in the blood.
It's not a great way to measure it.
It is tough.
There are specific brain studies you could do to give an indication of oxytocin release interbinding.
Those studies can be very expensive to do and not many people are investing excessive funds their research funds into ASMR research because it is so new.
So we haven't gotten to those studies, but you have the right idea.
Like, how do we measure directly?
Yes, I know.
I'm so curious.
I'm so fascinated.
So curious, just my own personal experience.
When I first stumbled upon ASMR videos and just the experience of and it's so funny because you talk about this the importance of connecting with the person doing it, because it matters and it does make a difference.
And I would encourage people if you're listening to this and you've never tried it before, don't just find a random and think oh, I didn't have a good experience and then never do it again.
Find something that speaks to you or connects with you in whatever way you feel connected to the experience.
I'm curious, Dr Richard, when I'm listening to ASMR and I feel the you know the tingles all over my body.
Like what exactly, what is that?
Like what exactly is happening to my body in that moment?
I'm sorry, but I don't know.
No one knows yet.
It is a mystery.
There aren't many physiological situations that stimulate that kind of tingling.
There are some pain disorders at which you might hear about people feeling there are clinical terms for a type of tingling.
But this tingling seems a little bit different because it's not associated with pain.
It's associated with relaxation and sometimes a little bit of euphoria.
Chills are somewhat close to this concept.
But chills that you might experience, whether from music, a profound moment in a speech or a movie, or even a cold breeze.
Those chills where you can feel little bumps going on your scalp and maybe you see the hairs on your arm raise up a bit.
Those are slightly different from tingles.
Tingles are a little more inside the skin, but also occur in a wave that tend to start at the top and move down.
But the science, like what exactly is going on there?
What are those nerves releasing?
What is stimulating those nerves?
That's still unclear.
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Have you seen the ASMR videos where you're going to either a hair salon or visiting the doctor, or going to a barber shop?
What is the intention behind that?
Is it still part of the same?
Is there a certain template that you have to follow in order for it to be ASMR?
There is a template or a combination of stimuli.
What you just named are all situations in real life that stimulate ASMR.
So all you're seeing in ASMR videos are simulations of real life moments.
That tends to stimulate ASMR in those that experience ASMR.
A common one is going to get a haircut.
In real life, when you go to get a haircut, if you're like oh, I just love the way they touch my hair.
I love the sound of the scissors.
I just want to take a nap while they're giving me a haircut.
You're probably experiencing ASMR. if you go to a clinician.
And even if they take the stethoscope, they put it on your chest or your back and they're quiet and they say take a deep breath in.
And you start just feeling yourself get relaxed.
That's positive personal attention from someone that you trust, someone you feel comfortable with, and it's just stimulating that ASMR.
So this is what we see in ASMR videos.
It's just real life situations reenacted into the camera to make you feel like you're in that moment.
Yeah, I find that these types of well, it's newer.
ASMR is definitely a newer type of experience, or can we call it a modality at this point.
Sure.
I mean it's it to me.
Are there correlations or overlaps with something like meditation or practicing mindfulness?
Yeah.
My perspective, or my summary and perspective of the difference between ASMR and the relaxation you get from meditation is for me, ASMR is always something I experience that someone else stimulates in me.
Meaning I'm watching an ASMR video and they're relaxing me.
I'm in the presence of someone with a nice voice and Their voice is relaxing me.
I'm at the hairdresser.
They're relaxing me.
Meditation can often be you putting yourself into a relaxed state.
I'm horrible at that.
My brain is just too overactive.
And when I try to meditate and I close my eyes and I try to think through and clear my mind and be present or not present, whatever it is you're supposed to be when you meditate, I start to think of things I need to do.
I'm not good at distracting myself.
But when I'm looking at someone else, my brain is really good at getting distracted by that other individual, putting me into a relaxed state which, for me and for many people, is ASMR.
That's the difference I see.
Now, you can still have group meditation and things like that.
You can have a meditation, someone do a guided meditation for you.
I would argue or put forth that when someone else is talking in a calm voice and putting you into a guided relaxation, a guided meditation, perhaps that's actually ASMR.
Dr. Richard is saying that basically what we do here is already ASMR.
So that is great.
That is great news for us.
I, I feel like I am really.
This is one modality that I am, I think, scientifically the most excited about, because there are so many we we know what the statistics are with people struggling with uh depression, struggling with anxiety, struggling with yeah, struggling with feelings of isolation, the loneliness epidemic, and i feel like i'm i'm very much a advocate for uh treatments and and help, right.
So how can i incorporate a modality like mindfulness, like exercise, like you know, forest bathing ASMR, whatever it may be, to alleviate symptoms that are extremely debilitating for a large majority of the people, even here in the United States?
So how do you see ASMR falling into the world of healthcare or into therapeutic practices in the future?
I think it does need more clinical studies.
So I'm a strong believer in clinical evidence to confirm that it is as helpful as whatever current evidence-based practices are.
And so those studies are getting done and they're starting to come out very supportive of ASMR.
So coming from that clinical evidence, so far what started is very supportive.
For someone who, let's say, has some trouble falling asleep at night or has some average level stress in their life.
I think on their own, turning to an ASMR video and trying that is a great start.
If someone has extreme insomnia or extreme anxiety because you used the word debilitating once.
We talk about things like insomnia and anxiety, those are debilitating.
I would suggest that those individuals start with a health professional.
Because what a health professional can do that an ASMR video can never do is find the underlying problem and perhaps fix it.
There may be something that is driving their anxiety that could be directly treated to make the anxiety go away permanently, and or the insomnia, whether it's a thyroid condition or something else.
So if you feel like you have something debilitating in your life, start with a health professional.
But what you can do is whatever treatments they want you to start with.
It should be okay to use the co-treatment or to also use ASMR videos.
And talk to your health professional about it.
If this is something you're considering is to say hey.
What do you think about ASMR videos?
Chances are they may not have many thoughts on that.
But I can tell you right now there's over 100 research studies on ASMR videos.
Almost every single one confirms it's relaxing for those individuals that experience ASMR.
So it seems so far a safe thing to be able to try as a co-treatment.
Just don't ignore seeing a health professional.
So use it as a co-treatment is my recommendation at this point.
So where do we go from here?
What do we have to look forward to when it comes to the scientific research?
For me.
One of the big questions I'd like to address, I'd like to see answered, is why do some people experience it and other people don't?
So what I've done is I've ordered these things, they're called DNA primers.
And what they can enable me to do is to look at the genetic composition of two groups of individuals.
So say one group experiences ASMR and the other group does not experience ASMR.
I can look at specific genetic sequences they have related to genes that I think might be involved, like an oxytocin gene, and see if there's differences that might make this one group that experiences ASMR more sensitive, more likely to have a strong oxytocin response than the other group.
It might not be the reason.
It might come down to life experiences.
But I would love to kind of look at that genetic study as a similarity.
Have you ever heard how some people have certain positive reactions to certain food and other people have a negative reaction to that same food?
And what they show sometimes is it just comes down to genetic differences.
So perhaps the answer could be that simple.
For other studies I'd like to be done that are kind of beyond my resources are major clinical studies.
Clinical studies where they recruit a hundred or more diagnosed patients with specific conditions like anxiety or insomnia.
And they compare ASMR as a treatment to evidence-based treatments.
And they see, is it helpful?
How does it compare?
You'd also have placebos and proper controls in there.
And those studies are very expensive.
But with all these smaller studies that are being done right now, they're all leading up to support someone, meaning a major university, investing in big studies like that.
So I'm very optimistic about those.
Wow, that's...
Very hopeful.
And I'm really excited.
I really believe that there's a lot of substance with ASMR.
There's a lot of efficacy to the findings that you've researched.
And I think if there are more studies done and people continue to see their symptoms improve or they have symptoms, you know, just a better sense of themselves or a better sense of their lives.
It gives them some respite from something that they're going through then more ASMR please.
Yes, exactly.
It's another tool in the toolbox for people who are struggling with their medications that aren't working well their strong side effects, or they're like me and just meditation doesn't work that well, or whatever are the other relaxation techniques.
ASMR triggers, ASMR stimuli, audio, videos are all another option that people can try.
Dr Richard, I'm so grateful, by the way, for the work that you've done and for spending some time with us.
Where can people go to connect with you or to get more information about ASMR?
They're welcome to check out my website, asmruniversity.com.
There's a lot more details about ASMR on there and my contact information.
And if they're looking also to try some relaxing audio, they can try my podcast Calm History, where I just talk in a calm voice and try to relax people.
Dr. Richard, thank you so much for joining us today.
We will link all of those links to the show notes, wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast.
Thank you so much for being here.
We'll see you back here soon.
