Are you guys angry people?
You are.
I am my worst self on customer service calls.
I am a recovering, passive, aggressive person.
Anger is not bad.
It's a misunderstood emotion.
We have like this like unrealistic expectation that we should not be angry.
In fact, anger is to be expected.
Anger.
Are we ready to talk about it?
No, hello and welcome to another episode of hot pursuit, a podcast about creating conversations where nothing is off limits.
This podcast is produced by asian boss girl i'm em, i'm jen and i'm madeline.
Today we are talking about anger.
This is the most taboo emotion ever.
No one really knows what to do with it.
So we're going to talk about anger.
Is it dangerous, is it scary, is it necessary?
How we're gonna deal with it, how do you deal with it and healthy ways to manage your reactions to anger.
This is a very juicy, juicy topic.
It is hot, it is spicy.
You know, this is really hot and exciting and spicy.
We have a fun update We're going to Harvard.
We are going to be doing a speaking engagement at the Harvard Business School on Friday, April 17.
So if you're in the Boston area, come hang out with us.
We'd love to see you there.
Very exciting.
So honored.
So grateful to get to do this.
This is crazy.
See you there.
We're going to the ivy leagues.
Mom dad, we made it all right.
Guys anger fun, fun.
Are we ready to talk about it?
No, Okay.
All right.
I feel the way that Matt's ears are.
She's not enthusiastic.
I know.
Look at her earrings.
It's the opposite of what we're going to be feeling today.
It's her reminder.
That's passive aggression.
Just be happy.
That's a mask that you're putting on.
Oh.
We can see right through it.
So today we're going to be talking about anger.
And as you guys know, we love doing a rapid fire.
So here's our rapid fire segment.
Let's see if we could keep it snappy.
No promises.
Let's try to keep it under 10 minutes, but who knows?
Who knows?
Stay tuned.
Okay.
Your answers are yes or no.
Got it?
Okay.
I see Jen just like nervous.
She goes, okay, eyes get wide.
All right.
So what makes you angry?
Listeners, viewers, you can participate as well.
All right.
I'm going to give a list of a few examples and you say yes or no.
Getting caught off while speaking.
I can't answer yes or no.
So yes.
I was going to say sometimes.
Really?
When do you not get angry when you're cut off?
Because sometimes people have something really important to say or it's like really contributing to the conversation.
A lot of times it's not.
How often does that happen though when it is actually valuable?
If it's my friends, like all the time.
But if it's a man, unfortunately, less often.
The way your face drops.
I think you don't mind it because you trust us to note that we cut you off and we always bring it back to you said something about this.
Why don't you finish your sentence?
Or you had something to contribute to what I was saying at that moment.
That's very nice.
Yeah.
But you should call out if it happens.
Oh, it shouldn't happen.
How many times can you get cut off before getting angry?
Does it make me mad?
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
Did you answer the question?
Yes, it does.
But it also depends.
But most of the time, yes.
Okay.
Does this make you angry?
A man says the same thing you say and everyone agrees.
Yeah.
Just daily life.
Yeah.
I hate when I say something and then a guy's like, oh, that's a good point.
Then next day he says the exact same thing.
Everyone's like, you're so smart.
Or in the same meeting, like 20 minutes later.
Happens to me all the time.
Really, or when they say well, it's a little bit different because, and then they say exactly what you said, and then you're supposed to just sit there and be like you just said what i just said, but i guess it's a little different because you said it okay.
Next, a dirty, messy place.
Oh yeah, i really can't stand it.
Clutter, rage rises.
Yeah, how about you?
No, it's not rage, it's disgust.
It's like my disgust is so high that i get angry.
Yeah, being hungry, oh my god, i am Patient number one when it comes to hangriness.
Everyone knows.
I didn't realize because we never lived in the same city, but once she moved to LA she's always bringing snacks everywhere she goes.
And I was like, that's so considerate that she just brings snacks all the time.
And then I realized, oh, she can't be hungry.
Otherwise, she's wreaking havoc.
It's emotional management for myself and others.
She's managing herself.
It's not being generous.
We love a self-aware queen.
Every time we go on a walk, she has like three options of crackers.
And I'm like, are you going to carry that the whole time?
It's like, do you want me to be angry at you?
Or do you want me to be snacking and quiet?
It makes so much sense now.
I just don't speak when I'm angry because I know it's not going to be good.
So I just... Oh.
But hungry?
Did you say yes to hungry?
Or is it hangry?
Hangry?
Okay.
Yeah, she gets hangry.
Yeah, I don't speak when I'm angry.
Can't attest.
So you're just a silent... I'm just silent because...
She's silent, but if anything escapes her mouth, it's like, meh, meh, meh.
You're like, oh.
You can see her trying to control it.
She needs a snack.
What would you say, though?
I need food right now.
Why are they going so slow?
What is taking so long?
I would like to see that.
Okay.
Customer service calls.
Yes.
I hate those.
And it's not because of the customer service workers, because they're lovely most of the time and they're just trying to do their job.
But man, are processes inefficient.
I am my worst self on customer service calls.
Do you, are you mean to them?
You know what it is?
It's the fake niceness.
I can't.
Don't tell me that you're gonna we're gonna take our time to figure out how to solve this for you, Jennifer.
No problem.
Just tell me you don't know what the answer is.
I can take it.
So you'd rather them be like, I don't know.
Let me ask my manager.
Yeah.
They'd be like, if they were just like, I have no idea.
Actually, we've never seen this before.
I'm going to need like 10 minutes.
I know they're instructed to do this, by the way.
Not on them.
They're instructed to do this, but it just pisses me off.
Really?
I actually like that.
It calms me down.
Really?
When they're like, you have nothing to worry about.
And I'm like, oh, okay.
Jenna's like, she never loses her cool.
Ever.
Except with customer service.
And that was crazy for me to see because, like she, in like the eight years that I've known her, she's just like always, steady.
And then I see her deal with customer service people and I'm like ooh, I'm glad I'm not a customer service rep.
Wow, I need to see this.
It's a show.
Not in a good way, but you know.
Being hot.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, my God.
I get pointy.
Are you trying to share, Jen?
I don't like to revisit those places in my brain, in my memories.
Yeah, I get really angry when I'm hot.
That's why I moved out of Texas, because I was pissed all the time.
Yeah, me too.
You walk outside, you're angry.
I haven't felt that kind of anger in a while since moving to LA.
It's beautiful all the time.
Exactly.
I moved to California and I was like- You're just like, life is good.
I'm never angry anymore.
I've been replaying it in my head.
Living in Texas, the weather itself, among other things, just pisses you off.
In my eight years of knowing Madeline Ong, I have never seen fire behind her eyes the way I did on a hot day in Japan on vacation.
And we haven't reached that point ever since.
Because I scared you.
Because I was like, we will get her into AC.
We will bring a fan.
We will bring water.
You were like dehydrated and it was like 107 degrees.
Were you also hungry?
And hungry.
She was depleted.
It was a triple threat.
And I already had an umbrella.
Did you have a hand fan?
I don't know.
Next time you got to get those Mr. Fans.
No, you did not have a fan.
Oh, I didn't have a fan.
Or if you had a fan, it was not working because the air, it's just blowing hot air at you.
We were visiting this palace and we had paid money to go in and, like the heat and the rage all hit at the same time, like mid tour.
So I'm like, okay, let's go.
Like, let's go get lunch.
Let's go get AC.
We can take a cab back.
And she goes, no, we can finish this.
We can finish the tour.
I was like, I don't think I want to see the palace anymore.
We really can go, well, we paid money for it already.
You're like, this isn't fun anymore for me.
I don't want to.
Okay, the way I walked so fast through this palace.
No, she didn't.
She immediately picked up her pace.
I was like, oh, I guess that worked.
I was like, beautiful, beautiful.
Really nice, really nice.
And then?
And then I was like, do you want to take a cab back?
Because there's AC.
Or do you want to take a bus?
I was like, I don't know.
Just get me out of here.
Just get me out of here.
She's panicking.
Full-blown panicking.
Yeah, I saw Jen just be like, How do you feel when you see people reacting to you that way?
I obviously feel terrible, but I literally cannot help myself.
But what I can do, because that happens with food too.
So what I can do is bring snacks and then she doesn't come out.
And that's why when it comes to social life, I plan everything around food.
Because if I'm not fed, no one will have fun.
If I'm hot, dehydrated, hungry, no one will have fun.
And I know that.
And I'm so sorry.
She'll just, yeah, it is.
To show anger.
There was one time we woke up and she's like, what are we eating?
Someone tell us.
Someone needs to decide what's for lunch.
What are we eating?
And I was like whoa, like oh, now my mood is ruined.
Yeah exactly yeah yeah, you can't hold it back, but she literally can't.
Okay, slow drivers, yes.
No, hate them.
Loud chewers i cannot stand.
I cannot stand someone who's like.
Smacking like I know, like air kind of improves the quality of the flavor, but if you're smacking in my ear I get pissed off.
I won't tell you directly because that's just how you eat, but I'll walk away.
It doesn't piss me off, but it is annoying.
You can see the food.
I know.
I'm just like, do you hear yourself?
Has anyone ever told you?
People who jump to conclusions.
I hate this.
You're thinking of someone.
Yes.
Sometimes.
They assume things and you're like, well, you weren't curious about my side of the story.
Sometimes if people have really strong intuition, I'm curious what they see that I don't.
If they're so confident in jumping to a conclusion, That's rare though.
Restaurants not being open on Monday.
That's you, sushi restaurants.
That's you, Vietnamese places that close at 7.
Sushi restaurants, places that close at 7.
45, taco stands.
But we love you and you have the best food, which is why you can do that.
That's why we're angry because we want it so bad and you're not there for us.
But we understand you need to rest.
Yeah, and you deserve it.
Ooh, when clothes don't fit right.
Yes.
Yeah.
That pisses me off.
I'm so mad about it.
Yeah.
As a five, a sub five girl, nothing is made for us.
And then you're a tall girl and nothing is made for you.
Nothing's made for me.
Like my pants are always too short.
My pants always like hit right at the ankle.
So I look like a middle schooler.
And also like having small boobs, it's really hard to find clothes that fit right.
But also I heard having like big boobs is also really hard too.
A bad hair day.
When you just look bad, you just feel like you look bad that day.
It doesn't make me angry.
Maybe it makes me sad.
I'm like, I'm ugly.
Yeah.
Oh.
Yeah.
There was this one podcast that me and Mads were guests on and I thought she looked so good.
She looks so beautiful.
And I kept telling her that and she was just like, All I feel is I didn't look good.
And I'm like, that makes me sad.
You're your harshest critic.
I remember watching those clips back and just literally feeling in the pit of my stomach like you're so ugly.
I remember watching those clips back thinking, Madeline looks so good.
I remember being like, dang, she figured out that makeup look.
Yeah, and then I showed some of my friends, they're like, Maddie looks so good.
Yeah.
Ooh, Netflix cheaters.
What's a Netflix cheater?
Someone that says, oh, let's watch this show together.
And then they keep watching it without you.
Jen did that to me the other day and I was so mad.
Which you said earlier.
You guys can watch the next three episodes.
I didn't say that.
Oh.
Maybe she said that.
I would not have said that because I was looking forward to it.
I think I might have given her permission.
Sorry.
Because one of our friends was like, oh, Maddie's already seen it.
And I was like, yeah, she's already seen it.
You should just finish it.
Yeah, but I didn't know you actually wanted to rewatch it.
Resounding yes.
Cybertrucks.
Ugh, you know what pisses me off more?
The fact that jen said that i represent cyber trucks.
You think she's a human cybertruck?
No, it's the same like confidence and like you just can't help but like be captivated as they go by.
I don't think it's captivated.
I think it's just jarring.
Exactly.
It's like, what is that?
It looks like an early rendering of a video game of like Tomb Raider, if Tomb Raider had cars.
Last but not least, doing your taxes.
Ugh.
Hate it.
Gross.
So annoying.
Hate it.
I avoid it till the very last day.
Yeah.
Push it back too.
But thank God we don't have to do that this year because we've got TurboTax.
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All right, let's get into the juice of it.
Are you guys angry people?
You are.
I didn't ask that.
I asked if you were.
See what I mean?
You don't got to answer for me.
Speak for yourself.
Are you an angry person?
I can be.
I think I've worked a lot on it to not be angry, so I think maybe naturally I am, but less now.
But not enough to say no.
There's a lot behind that that I want to ask.
How did you work on yourself to get there?
Oh well, you know, as displayed in our earlier examples of anger, sleep deprivation and hotness, the real ugly sides of me come out and they wreak havoc on people.
You see the responses on their faces when you outburst – sorry, Jen – on the mountaintops of Japan.
Like utter beauty.
Yeah.
And it's terrifying because you look at yourself and you just say, dang, I'm capable of that.
That's pretty scary.
And so...
You know, we go to therapy, we make sure we're fed and we're slept.
We're well fed, well slept, and well hydrated.
And exercised.
It's really just taking care of yourself, honestly.
Diets leave an exercise.
What a concept.
I like though, that you took it upon yourself to ensure you outburst less, because I feel a lot of people make it everyone else's problem.
The other thing about anger is that it's really exhausting and you lose.
You lose every time.
So I was tired of being tired and I was tired of losing.
I'm honestly just really competitive.
So I was like, you got to win somehow.
Not really.
So tangibly, you started packing snacks.
When I'm interacting with people, I make sure that all of those pillars are at a sufficient level.
So if i'm like too tired, i'll just say no, because i know that i'm gonna be a.
If i'm hungry, i will provide the plan.
I'll provide a proposal of like let's eat this at this time at this place, that i've already made a reservation, and most of the time people are down because everyone's got to eat, but they just don't get angry.
And then i always bring a little water bottle i should show you.
It's so cute, you should get it, you should go.
It's, it's the cutest little water bottle.
It looks like it's from a cartoon, that It's like opposite blues clues that she took and then brought into the real world.
I used to bring a larger one, but... Why don't you show the class your water bottle?
So this is my water bottle.
It's so tiny.
It's so cute and it's not enough honestly, but it is enough for an emergency.
So i'm constantly drinking this and refilling it and it looks like it's so cute and i like that.
It's not like a huge, like a walla or stanley.
Yes, because i used to bring.
Those are heavy.
Yeah, i brought those around in school when i had a backpack, but i don't really carry a backpack like that anymore.
What about you, jen?
Are you an angry person?
You don't.
You sure don't show it.
I don't.
Yeah uh, most people are like Oh, you don't seem to get mad at all.
I'm just a slow simmer.
I'm like always simmering in the back.
You're a volcano.
That's true.
And I don't let it like erupt often either.
That's true.
You're not really explosive yeah, but your anger it's um, it's.
I think it's more rare her type of thing yeah, and then emily Yes, I'm angry.
I'm always angry.
The little control panel in my brain is controlled by anger.
I have theories about where it comes from, and I'm not afraid to show it either.
I try not to make people feel bad, but I will express my displeasure with this situation.
She has ease expressing displeasure.
Yes, yes.
Which is already quite jarring to most people.
I didn't know that.
I felt like it was a way to kind of disarm.
Like, okay, I'm showing my displeasure.
You can too if you're feeling it.
But I've received feedback that says like oh, it kind of sometimes ruins the mood for everyone because you're complaining.
And I'm like, but don't you think it's hot too?
Like let's all just be hot together and then we can solve the problem together.
Yeah.
It's because people don't know how to deal with your anger, because they don't know how to deal with anyone's anger, because they haven't dealt with their own anger.
Wow.
That's my hot take.
Wow.
Hot take.
How did you land on that?
Because I think people are uncomfortable by the things they cannot face in themselves.
So if they see someone expressing that freely, then they're like I don't know how to deal with that because I don't have to deal with it myself.
Whereas I think if I can deal with my own sadness, my own anger, my own frustration, then I can hold other people's, because I know what it's like to hold my own.
Wow.
Well, I think it's also a feedback loop, because we don't express anger well, because I think we all hold it in.
I hold it in.
So that by the time we do, it's explosive and it's hurtful.
And so obviously the receiving person also doesn't know how to hold that for you.
So collectively, we just don't know how to hold any of each other's anger in a healthy, gentle way.
So we all hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, and then explode, and then it's hurtful.
And then we all are like, I never want to be on the receiving end of that.
I'm going to hold it in too.
Hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, explode.
I meant it's get me out of here.
Get me out of this.
Get me out of this palace.
Well, that instance was interesting because I think we debriefed it after and I was like in those situations, what would you like?
What did I say?
I think you were like, usually just don't talk to me.
Only if it's like something logistical, like we can go figure it out.
But like other words and other ways, don't like try and comfort me.
Don't try to make it better.
Don't try and like soothe me because I will not be soothed.
And the attempts will actually like make me more mad.
So just...
Focus on what we need to do to get to the state where I will be better.
AKA food?
Yeah.
I hear anger described as being in the pool trying to hold the beach ball under.
Does that make sense?
So you're in the pool, you're playing with this beach ball, you're holding it under the surface of the water and you can do it, but that's all you can do.
If you lift your hand up to go do something else, it'll like come back and hit you in the face.
And so I feel like a lot of people don't really know what to do.
Yeah, like you said, with their own anger, because they know it affects everyone else.
And I think anger is such a unique emotion because it's not something We don't really know how to deal with it.
We don't know where to put it.
Like when someone's sad, you can offer comfort.
You can offer just to sit with them.
When someone's happy, you can celebrate with them.
When someone's nervous, you can, you can like reassure them, whatever.
But when someone's angry, what do you do?
You just try not to be in the line of fire.
But even in that, we don't really know like, oh, where do we stand?
Yeah, and there shouldn't be a line of fire.
There shouldn't be a line of fire.
Yeah, if you don't know how to deal with anger, which we are also figuring out.
It's not like we know how to do it either.
No.
But if you don't know how to deal with it, it can be very harmful and it can result in hurting people.
And if you really let it escalate, it can be violent, which is like really, really terrible.
But as a result, I think people make the conclusion that anger is bad.
But question is anger bad?
I think anger is.
It's a natural response, I think.
Everyone is allowed to be angry.
You can't control if you can be angry or not.
Things are gonna make you angry.
I think the issue is the reaction to your anger.
Your own reaction to your anger.
Yeah.
And knowing how to channel your anger in healthy ways.
That's the biggest issue that people have.
That's the biggest issue I have.
Can't attest.
The easiest way is just to like, blurt it out and be like But, like you said, there shouldn't be a line of fire.
Anger is not bad.
It's a misunderstood emotion.
Oh.
I think anger can feel very dangerous because...
There's so much that gets turned off in your ability to reason and feel and understand other narratives.
But the reality is that anger is necessary.
It highlights where you're feeling unseen.
It highlights gaps and expectations.
And it is the signal to change and close those gaps with people or your environments.
So you find anger to be quite informative when you can divorce yourself from what that feels like in your body.
Like anger has, it always is channeled outwards to other people or other things.
And so then it feels like you're divorcing yourself of the responsibility of that emotion and blaming and accusing other things around you.
I think with sadness, you kind of recluse back into yourself.
With anger, there is a trigger.
There is someone or something that is making you uncomfortable.
And the easiest way to go is just to blame them.
It's hard to comfort someone that is on the attack.
As she looks directly at me.
There's no comforting you can do.
Yeah.
Anger is directional.
It sounds like.
So how do you comfort someone that is placing the blame and responsibility externally?
Well, the first thing is that it should be nobody's responsibility to comfort someone's anger other than the person who is angry.
I think
The person who is angry has the most responsibility to manage themselves in their own anger.
And anyone around ideally can help, but it's not their responsibility.
So you're asking that question, which is great and wonderful, but ultimately it should fall on the angry person, not on the receiver of that anger.
True.
But then as someone who's in relationship with around in the moment, with someone who is angry like that's why I think it's uncomfortable for people to express or be on the receiving end because they don't know what to do.
No one knows what to do.
Everyone just like stay silent and let them like let it all out.
Like what do you say?
What do you do?
You know?
That's a whole nother topic actually, which is like how to receive someone's anger well when you're in close relationship with them.
Even when the anger is not directed towards you.
I don't think anyone knows what to do.
That's why we get the feedback that's like, keep that to yourself.
Don't show that because I don't know what to do with it.
But the fact of the matter is that like it needs somewhere to go or it's going to become that dangerous level of anger.
So what are some management techniques that we have employed?
You said something about how one person's anger is their responsibility, but what if they triggered someone else's anger in their reaction to their own anger?
So an example I have is when I was younger, my grandparents lived with me and my family.
We all lived in the same home.
And so it was.
I don't know if you've ever taken care of an elderly person.
It's so hard on everyone.
I remember I got into a lot of arguments with my dad because he didn't really know how to deal with his father messing up things around the house.
It gets him angry.
In lashing out, it was aimed either towards me or adjacent to me.
In reaction to that, I would get angry and I would throw it back at him and he would throw it back at me.
So suddenly a trigger from someone, a completely third party, becomes an argument between two other people.
So it feels like a ping pong, ping pong.
That's true actually, because a lot of times an angry person will try to ignite that in someone else or try to get a response.
Could try to rile you up.
Yeah.
And so in that I feel it's very difficult, because I feel like anger is from an evolutionary standpoint, it's meant to trigger your fight or flight.
Like, oh my gosh, this tiger just, ate my sister, what am I going to do?
You have to react really quickly.
And I think right now, there's no tigers, but there's still things that trigger us.
And so to take a slower approach takes a lot, a lot of reflection and a lot of self-soothing in that moment.
No, that's really good actually, because I do think, like you said, anger is a protective instinct at its root and it might manifest as a tiger in the early days.
But now, if I trace back a lot of my anger, it's from being hurt and being unseen from someone that I expected and thought would know me better than however they are treating me or however they are accusing me or however they've done something that has pissed me off.
I just expected that they wouldn't do that and therefore I feel hurt by that.
And then the anger rises as a protective instinct of like Like.
We are in the same tribe.
Yeah.
Why are you treating me as an outsider?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It kind of messes with the natural progression and flow of things.
How do you express anger?
I am a recovering, passive, aggressive person.
And by recovering, I mean I'm on the first step of my journey.
I can catch it.
Now, before I say it, and then I go ask my friends, how should I say this?
I want to express my displeasure.
How do I say this nicely without attacking this person's character?
Or sometimes she'll blurt it out and then she'll immediately say, sorry, that was mean.
Or when you're talking to other people, you'll be like this is what I want to send to them, but I'm not going to do that.
But I just wanted you to know.
This would be my response.
It's like a little bit of a catharsis for you.
Yeah.
No, but that's a good point.
It's releasing.
You still got to release it.
You have to release it.
And express.
Yeah, get that anger out so that you can then talk about your frustration in a calm way.
I don't think it's very natural to have a calm reaction to your anger.
No, no.
It's not, yeah.
I think that fury needs to come out and I think it needs to come out physically.
That's like my hot take, but obviously that needs to be taken out like Like Emily sent me this great video.
Just push a wall.
Like, if you're pissed off, just push a wall.
I thought you sent that to me.
No, you sent it to me.
Oh, okay.
And like, it helps so much.
Or like, go to a boxing class.
Go like run until you are like exhaust yourself from that fury so that you don't take it out on others.
It is critical that you do that.
Because otherwise you will end up hurting other people, whether emotionally physically verbally, whatever it is.
It's going to hurt someone, probably including yourself.
And you need to make sure that that does not happen.
No pressure, but all the pressure in the world.
You will save drywalls everywhere.
Well, at least punch the drywall instead of a person.
Don't punch a person.
I mean, don't punch a drywall either.
Don't do that.
The thing is, don't be destructive.
Pillows exist.
Yes.
Pillows are great.
Yeah, we have this unrealistic expectation that we should not be angry.
And, in fact, anger is to be expected in our lives.
But we somehow all think we should be saints and just never be angry or pissed or annoyed about anything.
And I think that creates that feeling of needing to hold it all in.
Even more so for women, I think.
Yeah.
I heard this very interesting thing about how anger is not suitable for women because they're allowed to have this vast array of emotions.
So they don't get anger.
But men get anger and they only get anger.
If they express any other emotion, then they're a pussy.
So, so you're, you're either angry or you're not a man basically.
So all of their sadness, all of their anxiety, all of just anger.
Yeah.
Any all of their disappointment.
They're not allowed to feel that.
They can only feel angry, because that is what's reserved for men.
It's aggressive.
It's powerful.
And that just made me feel very sad for them.
We should level the playing field.
Both sides lose.
Both sides lose.
Yeah.
Because when women get angry, they're seen as like crazy.
They're uncontrollable.
Female rage is like a huge, very popular thing in media.
But for a man to be angry, that's appropriate.
But I'm sure there's so much going on behind the scenes that they can't express.
They can't cry.
They can't be soft.
Men can't cry.
They can't show the sadness.
They can't even show too much happiness.
They can't be giddy, which is not fair either.
Yeah.
But if they're angry...
That's good.
It's good.
If you're angry playing a baseball game, anger is what gets you to the home run.
Which is a good avenue.
Physical activity sports, are a great avenue to channel all of that into something that then you can then win, like maybe that rage brings you to the top, like in euphoria.
What's his name?
The football player?
No no no, no.
The other one okay, mckay.
Yeah, his dad told him to channel his anger into football and so he was at the top of his game and then, once he became happy, he had no more anger And then he started like performing.
Well, it was also because he was a black man and he gets so much criticism in society and gets like beat down by society.
And so he can never respond because he doesn't have the freedom to do that.
Because if he does, he's going to get locked up.
But he is not allowed anger at baseline.
So the only place that he can release that pressure valve is football.
And as a result, he became the best in the game.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's another topic.
Yeah, that's a whole episode. who is allowed anger.
Women are not allowed anger.
Women are not allowed anger.
We are starting to give ourselves their permission a little bit more.
In media I think you see, like in movies, there's so many more stories of like female rage or female vengeance plots which are like very cathartic to watch.
But it's because we've long had to channel and alchemize our anger into sadness, into hurt, into something that's more quiet of an emotion.
We make fun of women who are angry.
We call them Karens.
They're not afraid to express their displeasure and then we make fun of them.
Yeah.
This is related to another thought that I had around anger being necessary, which is that the positive sides of anger, I think, is a sense of justice and how anger and discontent in a certain area, in the way things are, actually is necessary to close the gap.
There's a perceived gap in what should be and what is.
Restore the balance.
Yeah.
And so it's like channeling that well into like.
No, I want to channel that to make change, to like, build something in this area that doesn't exist is a valuable place where I don't even know if we can call it anger, but maybe it's like a righteous anger or a holy discontent to close a gap that exists.
But every great movement, every great fighting for our rights and our advocacy, or great art movements have started from.
Why would we do it this way?
I don't like that.
I'm upset about it and I'm going to do something about it.
When we think about anger and the very typical images of what anger is, we think of things like raising your voice, getting red in the face, maybe grimacing at someone.
But for you two and me as well, how do you manage your anger?
I try to refrain from reacting for a hot minute because I have so much that I could like blurt out, so much I could do.
I could like shove someone.
But I try to just sit there and feel it for like one second, because it's going to become overwhelming at one point if you don't put it somewhere.
But I need a moment to understand why I'm feeling what I'm feeling.
And then I can signal just enough for the person to escape.
You know what I mean?
It's like, this is coming.
Get away now.
I don't know, like, I don't know that I have it all figured out.
Like I don't know if I ever will, but it's kind of like taking an inventory of identifying what I need to get to a calmer state now so that I can work through the reason that happened.
So if I'm like, like when I'm gonna fight with you, for example, like I'll throw something out that's probably got some knives on it or got some teeth on it,
Then I'll have to take a moment and be like, dang, okay, I'm mad.
Why am I mad?
What is she actually saying?
Listen to what she's saying and say all those things in your head.
Get so pissed at her and break her down in your head.
And then, but don't say them because you don't really, you're not, you don't have the full picture right now.
And it's important that when you engage in this, you can come back prepared.
I like our fights.
I don't.
Because I don't enjoy them, but I find the structure is very helpful.
Like you're the best fighting partner.
Cause I know like we, we got into one like earlier last week.
We have so much.
It's just like at least once a week.
Yeah.
And then it kind of feels like I'll type my whole thing and it'll be like this long and I click enter and then I sit back and I'm like your turn.
That's how it feels because I'm like, okay, you give me space to say everything.
And now I'm ready to hear what you have to say.
That's what I was missing.
I think when I was younger is like I would just be so preoccupied with like you know that one meme with like it's a cartoon character with the super round O of a mouth.
And then you're just like so many O's coming out of it.
I just feel like that's what my rage was, and it was just coming out at full.
It's like a water hose backwards.
Like that's what my mouth is in terms of like, let me just shoot everything out.
All I'm feeling, all my thoughts, like everything that I have inside of me needs to come out.
Which is true, but the timing of it could have been adjusted.
So I think now what I try to do is like, yes, that will come out at some point.
Maybe it's not even through words, but take just one moment.
And it's not satisfying to sit there.
It's probably going to piss you off more, actually.
It pisses me off more.
And I can feel the heat just rise in me.
Your ears are getting hot.
Yeah.
But the fact that I'm able to feel that and feel the rise of anger is better, because I'm like I am not at least putting this on someone.
I'm acknowledging it and I'm trying to think about something else. that will close said gap.
Yeah.
There's like a wisdom you have now in knowing when to speak and when to wait.
Yeah, and let it sift and marinate for yourself to show a best for the other person, versus just you focused seeing red pummeling it for me.
I also don't want to discount the importance of like physical activity, so like I will often go for a walk if I'm pissed off or I don't know, just do any exercise class and get all of your anger out there.
Pilates sucks.
Put all of that rage into holding your fricking elevator squat.
I don't know.
It works.
Or go to the punching bag, swim laps, go run, go play basketball, literally anything.
Just it's important to like shake all of that energy out of your body like a physical shake out.
Sometimes i just sit there and just like sometimes and i feel better and it's just one moment.
You know yeah, the connection between like your mind and your body and your emotions.
It sounds so basic but it's so important.
Yeah, i read somewhere that Anger is more of a body response than a brain response.
Like whatever your body does first will inform how your brain reacts to it.
So it's less of like your brain signaling to your body, like go punch something.
It's more like your body needs to decide how to get this out, how to express it first, and then your brain will absorb the rest.
So I do think, physical activity is very important.
Even pushing a wall.
I tried it the other day.
It's exhausting and you only have to push like 30 seconds.
I felt like I might have pushed through the drywall.
I had to stop.
And then I went to a doorframe instead because I felt like it was more structurally sound.
I have found that sometimes rage playing the piano is also really great.
It gets all of the frustration out and you just pound the chords a little bit.
I've never tried that before.
I bet drummers have a huge catharsis in performing.
Or not performing, just practicing.
Oh, maybe.
Yeah.
My anger is an author.
So I don't feel it in my body.
I feel it in my mind.
I feel like When I'm angry, my mind is writing pages and pages and pages of narrative around what happened and why they did that and how they've always done that.
And so I often don't express anger to like most people in my life are probably like ever mad, but because I really value giving a huge amount of benefit of the doubt, like I don't know what they're going through and why they said that.
But I think that also then creates more of an instinct to hold everything in because I'm like well, maybe I don't know.
So I think for me, actually managing my anger now is to just let the pages be written and then be able to let them be written and then scrap it and then hear what they have to say.
But without that, I think I will still have my book and my novel of what happened.
And also I'm trying to listen to what they're saying, but there isn't as much space to hold both of those two things to be true.
So I just, I let it all be written.
And then I'm like yeah, that's probably because I was really pissed in the moment and I can scrap it more easily.
Yeah.
I love that because I love that you said you have to give it space.
You have to let it out and then it's easier to let go.
Because if you were to bottle it in and not write it, it's going to come out somewhere at some other time in passive aggressiveness.
Yes.
Passive aggressiveness is anger that has not had space to be expressed.
Really?
Dang.
Wow.
Yeah.
No, but it's quite the diagnosis.
So you must give it space.
That's such a great visual.
Yeah.
Write the pages.
I see you just furiously, like there's smoke coming off the page.
They always do this.
This is why they've never known me.
They've never seen me.
It's very dramatic, okay?
It's like, they never knew who I was.
The whole thing was a lie.
And then you're like you go back once it's all written, all your scribbles, and you're like, Now that I'm calm, I know that these things are not true.
And now I can scrap it.
Or I can find where there's something in there where it's like well, I do find that when they do that every time, it does piss me off.
So there's something about that that I can now extract out.
And communicate to the other person.
Yeah.
Out of the scribble, something is distilled.
How long does that take you?
Long runs is a great space to write a lot.
You have been running a lot recently.
I've been running a lot lately.
Have you been angry?
Lots of process.
But I think also there's some things that like...
You write over time too.
Like, okay, there's a frustration here, but then you're like, ah, okay, I can move along.
But sometimes you rewrite the next chapter of that anger novel.
And then you can see it more clearly and you see a pattern.
And then you can also call yourself out to be like I think I'm putting too much accusation on them right now on this thing.
Like, maybe I have some responsibility this too.
Once you read it all back or you say it out loud and you're like, yeah, That's kind of harsh.
It's kind of a lot.
I don't think that's true.
But it needs to be expressed somehow, somewhere.
Something that I have found helpful is when I feel a tinge of being pissed off.
Letting that out when it's small helps prevent it from building up.
Yeah.
So if I hate that you show up late, for example, if I just mention it, maybe after the fifth time, then I don't have to explode after the hundredth time.
So then you also give a bid for the other party to understand why you're angry.
And it's not really like putting the responsibility on them, but it's like helping other people understand why you are the way you are and also making space for how other people are operating because of how they are.
No, it's true.
You're cluing them in to what ticks you off.
Yeah.
For the sake of the relationship.
I need you to know this kind of pissed me off a little bit every time and I can get over it.
But like, if you can just show up on time, then I don't have we don't have to have the like negative feeling and maybe there's something it gives them the freedom to express it back to you too.
Yeah.
I think that's good because they say like triggers are kind of like little paper cuts.
One is fine.
Two is fine.
If you get 100, though, that's a problem.
And so I think cluing people into like, oh, that kind of hurt.
Yikes.
Can we avoid this next time?
And no one's gonna be perfect.
But if they can be more cognizant and if they know that's and then, moving forward, you can see their actions, then that kind of clues you into like how much they might care about you.
Yeah.
Yes.
And also it communicates to other people what you're willing to accept for yourself.
So I think of like maybe at the work environment, where you may not have the freedom to have these types of discussions with people right.
You can't be like.
My boss pissed me off because they said X, Y and Z.
However, you can communicate that something was unsatisfying.
Or maybe you could say like you're being asked to do a million things at work.
You can't say, I can't do that.
You can say my bandwidth is to do task A, B, and C.
I would love to do D I only have 40, 50, 60 hours in the day, whatever it is.
And maybe that's not like anger that's coming out, but it's.
It's at least communicating like you cannot expect this of me.
And this is also going to prevent me from, like rage, quitting down the line, because I'm trying to make this manageable as well.
Setting boundaries, if you will.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But learning the correct language, which I find ChatGPT helps.
Which you shouldn't rely on AI to form your own thoughts, but I do find it helpful for processing.
All right, so we're working on this.
We're trying to figure out how to manage our anger better.
What's one thing as of late that has helped you manage your anger better?
Ranting helps with a trusted individual, because you can say all the mean things that you think about this person and if this trusted individual is good, they will help to refute certain statements and bring the anger back down.
I i, i eat when i'm angry.
I'm an angry eater.
I do love a pulled up when i'm mad.
Oh, i should try that.
I haven't tried Because you feel the fury on your tongue.
That sounds amazing.
Yeah.
Wow.
I cry when I'm mad.
That's good.
That is good.
That means your body is releasing it.
Yeah, it is releasing it.
But it's so inconvenient to fight when I'm mad at someone and then I just start crying.
I'm like, no, no, go back.
I'm supposed to be mad.
You kind of lose some power if you're crying.
Yeah.
You're like, I'm someone on the receiving end.
You think you're hard?
Yeah.
I really don't like when you... Yeah.
I have found that shifting my expectations helps with anger.
Aww.
Because a lot of times I get mad because I think that we are aligned on something and we're actually not.
And someone is not willing to do something that I thought we were equally invested in.
And so if I can just...
Expect less.
No, this is so sad.
Honestly, though.
Honestly.
It's true, though.
No, but it's with like, it's calibrating your expectations to each person so that you can accept them for where they are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's healthy.
Yeah, having a discussion.
Yeah yeah, having a discussion.
What can i expect from you from now on?
And the way this manifests poorly a lot of times is in romantic relationships with guys.
When girls are like dating potential instead of taking who's in front of them, that gap then exists and like yeah, at that point, whose fault is it really?
We love potential.
Yeah, I know.
The last time I was really angry was when I was dating a guy and he kept cutting me off.
And I told him, I hate when you cut me off.
And then he cut me off again.
As I was explaining that, I left.
Left the apartment.
Oh, I remember that.
Yeah, I was furious.
I haven't been that mad.
I couldn't even cry because I just felt so angry.
I couldn't even scream.
It was just like, did that really happen?
Anger's hard.
It's really hard.
But it's just a regular part of the human experience.
Yeah.
We should expect that we will be angry.
Yeah.
It's calibrating the expectations.
It's true, though.
It's true, though.
So many of the problems are because we think we're supposed to be calm.
We are not calm.
So maybe a challenge could be the next time you are angry, you just say, oh, there it is.
Be like, I'm pissed.
And maybe that's the first step.
Acceptance is the first step.
Don't fight it.
Acknowledge it and just let it sit for a while.
Just one breath.
Just one breath.
One breath.
All right, and that wraps up this episode.
Thank you for joining us for this episode on anger.
We are Hot Pursuit.
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We love you guys.
Let us know this next thing you get pissed about.
We can't wait to hear it.
See you next time.
