Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the podcast.
We're back.
It's time for Roll On.
I'm sitting across from my brother from another mother, Alex.
Alex?
I got Alex on the brain.
Let me start over.
Hey, everybody.
Roll On is back, and it's coming right up, but first.
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Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the podcast.
We're back.
It's roll on time.
I'm sitting across from my brother, from another mother, Mr Adam Skolnick, my international correspondent, as I've been calling you lately.
Yes.
Today, we're going to talk a little bit about Alex Honnold.
We're going to talk what happened to Alex Preddy.
We are going to discuss Peter Attia and And then surgery recovery.
A bunch of people have been asking me about how that's going.
And then we're going to answer some listener questions.
But first and foremost, how are you doing, Adam?
Good, man.
Great to be back.
Good to be here with you.
Yeah, we had a nice midwinter summer moment, while the rest of the country is suffering under a deep freeze.
A little sensitivity.
Sorry.
Adam, not all of us are enjoying 80-plus degree Fahrenheit weather.
A midwinter summer, and I'm sorry it's gone.
That's the wrong note to start.
If it makes anyone feel better, I spent like two out of the last three days in the car.
Our youngest daughter, who is away in school, wanted to come home for the weekend, so...
Five and a half hours driving to pick her up and bring her home a day of spending time with her, and then another five and a half hours in the car taking her back.
Oh, wow.
This is what you do when you're a parent.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We were in the car.
We had a little road trip the last weekend too.
I was in Sonoma.
I did a book event in Sonoma.
How'd that go?
It went well.
It was fun.
It was like at this ranch owned by this Politico kind of California old school Politico guy that had like 15 or 20 of his people there.
That's cool.
And so it was fun.
And then...
Then we drove down, but we had a little malfunction with our electric vehicle and it wouldn't take fast charging.
So we had to do like this zipper.
So it ended up being the adventure we hadn't signed up for.
But we took in Muir Woods, Monterey.
It just took the slow march down and enjoyed this gorgeous, beautiful state of California.
Oh, that's nice, man.
Yeah.
Yeah, when you got the electric car you gotta plan accordingly around that if you're gonna be driving a great distance.
Let's start with Alex Honnold.
We hosted, as many of you know, our first live event here in the studio.
This past week.
And that went swimmingly.
I think it was super fun.
We had Alex really just in one of his very first media appearances post Taipei free solo send, which was just incredible to have him here and have him interacting with a group of people that we kind of handpicked to attend this event.
It was really a business sort of thing.
We had representatives from the brands that we work with.
We had people from Netflix and Google and Publicis and things like that.
And it was really a test run to put this new facility that we've moved into to use, to take advantage of this incredible theater where we're sitting right now, open it up to the public and begin tweaking this tried and true format of podcasting in a live environment.
And I think it went really well.
We learned a lot and it will be the first of many.
And I think it puts us in a position to do some really interesting things.
While everyone else in this space is sort of chasing subscriber growth and how many people are listening or watching, we're really focusing on strengthening the depth of our connection with the audience.
And I think live events are the future and the best way to do that.
And big live events are great, but there's something about this space that's very intimate and I think lends itself to that like depth piece that I'm really excited about.
Yeah, the best shows we've ever been to in our lives, thinking of music.
Aren't they the intimate venues?
Yeah, the little club before the band broke.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's cool to have that feel here.
Obviously fun to see Alex and you guys just flow so well.
So it's always good.
You bring something out in him, I think, that's different.
And it was super fun.
Well, he's really game to go anywhere.
And he has such a grounded, calm disposition.
Like there's no question that you could ask him that would like fluster him.
You know what I mean?
And I think what's underrated about Alex is his intelligence, his clarity of thought and his ability to so clearly articulate his perspective, without any care about how it lands.
He is not concerned with making sure he says the right thing.
He's just like, this is how I see it.
To me, it's like this.
And then he's baffled if people are like, oh, wow, that's a different perspective.
He's just like, well, that's who I am.
He's unapologetically himself.
And I think There's something refreshing about that, but also inspiring.
Like he doesn't equivocate.
He is authentically who he is.
And obviously he's a very special person who can do incredible things that inspire us.
But I think his demeanor is often overlooked as an essential piece in that kind of inspiring equation.
No doubt.
And the flip side of that is true as well.
Like he doesn't care what other people say. about him either.
It doesn't affect him negatively.
No, he doesn't personalize any of it.
No, he takes nothing personally.
Like I remember, when I was meeting with him, I had spoken with Tommy Caldwell and who had said, when he first heard about it the skyscraper event he considered it a media stunt.
And then Alex subsequently kind of convinced him otherwise.
But when I brought that up, to Alex, he's like, well, you know, he didn't take it personally at all.
He's like, Tommy can think whatever he wants.
Like it doesn't bother him.
And it clearly wouldn't affect their friendship.
And so it's like it's interesting to see, like I remember when, when New York times first decided to kind of send me out there, when we finally did it, to go to Vegas, to go to Vegas.
Yeah.
That's what you had asked on the podcast.
I didn't really answer it appropriately what it was like to go out to Vegas and spend time with them.
And one of the things that I remember was the editor really wanted to push on kind of what's at risk for his family.
And like, is that narcissistic?
Is there something wrong with that?
I could tell that my editor kind of felt like there was.
And so he's like, you know, Alex gets enough praise.
We need to push him.
And I'm like, I just said really clearly, I said, it's not going to be a problem to push him.
Like you could ask this guy anything.
It's so rare.
You know, that is so rare.
Like I've.
I've interviewed hundreds of people now of all walks of life, some really trying circumstances and some kind of people that get a lot of praise and every single one of them besides Alex is i need to be careful about what i bring up something that could be touchy.
I've never had that experience before where i knew going in it didn't matter when or what i said, it wasn't going to be taken personally or cause a kind of a roadblock for further conversation.
I just knew it ahead of time, and so i think that's exceptionally rare, and the other thing that i think i wish came across more that people don't get.
I mean, two things is that, first of all, he is a pillar of the rock climbing community out there.
And when he was working out on that sport climbing route at Crystal Light Cave, It was him.
It was a 67-year-old professor of philosophies, the chair of the philosophy department at UNLV, in just incredible shape named Bill.
There was a woman whose husband is one of the best sport climbers in the world.
I wish I could remember her name off head.
I apologize.
But she makes a living like putting up lights on the strip, like in high angle cameraman, but with lighting.
Mm-hmm.
There was a jazz musician, a young guy whose father also climbs there.
Alex is now climbing with a second generation of climbers.
And every one of them failed on what they were trying to do that day.
They all were trying to send certain routes.
Every one of them had different routes they were trying.
And they all had their own partner.
And they all failed, including Alex.
And what was interesting is that rock climbing is really a study in failure which, when you put that up against what he's doing free solo, where failing is not allowed, I think it's really interesting.
And I wish I had brought that up because it's something just to talk about, for us all to contemplate.
Like in this sport, while they fail because of full body failure, because they're climbing to their absolute max and their body just fails like real true, literal failure.
And then he takes up something where failure is absolutely not allowed.
It's just such an interesting second side of the sport, you know.
Just thinking about it makes my palms start sweating, you know.
The other thing about Alex is that he's super funny.
Yeah.
If you can create an environment that uh allows him to relax like his his uh, the comedy side of him really comes to the surface and it's so enjoyable.
And because I've had the good fortune of knowing him for a while and spending time with him and having interviewed him on this podcast I don't know, probably like five times now or whatever.
Like, I know how to like create that environment to allow him to kind of shine in his own.
You know, very specific unique, specific way.
Totally.
I mean, a little behind the scenes also, we have a ping pong table here at the studio.
And so as soon as he arrived, it was like, he's obsessed with ping pong.
He just went straight to the ping pong table.
Alex got so into it that we were in a side conference room kind of prepping for the event, as people were starting to filter in.
Alex came in, you were there, and he changed.
He like changed his outfit so he got into like shorts and a tank top so that he could play better, and he went back out to play.
And he played ping pong almost right up until the event started.
He went Jennifer Hudson, ping pong with Greg, rich roll.
Yeah.
And Kimmel the night before.
And then today I just saw a clip that Netflix posted, where he's sitting on top of the Netflix building, like sitting on the on the very edge.
Do you see that?
No.
Cause I think the day after our event he went over to Netflix for a meeting and obviously they had them.
They put them on the top of the building or whatever for the, for the big shot.
But you know, quite a, quite a character.
I, I do want to address one thing.
Yeah.
Which is right after watching him do the Taipei climb.
But before the live event, I posted a video on Instagram.
It was just a spontaneous like hey, I'm going to whip out my phone and just share a few thoughts on what I just witnessed and kind of what I got out of observing what Alex had just done.
And it's really this tale of to Alex's.
It's sort of insane that the Matrix has wired it this way, that literally on the same day that Alex did this accomplished this breathtaking feat that we have Alex Preti the other Alex being murdered by ICE.
On the one hand, we have what happened to Alex Preti just being Basically a demonstration of the worst of man's impulses aggression violence, this debased act of violence that really emanates from this place of power, control and fear.
This authoritarian overreach of ICE at the behest of an administration that is careening us more and more towards authoritarianism.
Basically, you know, expressing this overreach of power that ends up in tragedy and just inexcusable violence.
And on the other hand, we have Alex Honnold.
And what he did was an expression of, you know, awe, wonder and possibility.
You know, Alex Preddy was also fearless.
And what he did was to step in into that situation was out of love and a fearlessness as well.
And so it's interesting.
They're both kind of different angles on love and fearlessness.
And in Taiwan I woke up before dawn wondering if there was gonna be a climb, because it had been raining for days.
And the first thing I see is the headline.
The first thing i saw that morning was alex pretty, and it was miserable.
You know, like that's how you wake up, you know.
The only thing i would add on the alex pretty part is you know, the city of minneapolis is standing up.
It's amazing to see.
It's breathtaking to watch.
It's um, you know, steph curry was the warriors were playing the timberwolves and they got.
They got stuck there for days because they actually postponed one of the games because it was right after alex, i think was the same night that they were supposed to play And um, he watched the demonstrations and was just overwhelmed with love.
And he, he, that's what he had said.
And, um, it is amazing to see the city stand up.
You know we had we were the first test city here in LA and um, you know, this debased violence you're talking about it's coming from the state.
I mean, it, it, that's, I think what really upsets people and is really scary.
It's not just random violence.
It's state, it is state sponsored.
And so, um, Yeah, it's been terrifying, but to have both happen on the same day, like you said, it's like this cosmic, I mean, it's all there for our evolution, right?
So, you know, where do we go from here?
You know, where does this all lead?
Well, you know, lessons abound.
I mean, first of all, not for nothing.
You know, Mayor Jacob Fry like not mincing words, like really, you know, refreshing as a politician to get up there and, just you know, plainly state what he's observing and what is actually happening.
Like that takes a lot of courage.
So mad respect to him, friend of the pod, been on the podcast.
Great, right.
And I think that there is know a lot to be concerned about and there's a lot of pain out there right now.
What happened is atrocious.
It's worthy of talking about.
It's, you know, worthy of address, you know.
I do think that uh, for someone like myself who, who has a relatively large platform, that comes with a responsibility, And when you see overreaches of power, there is a call to action to speak truth to power.
And so it's important for me to do that.
But this is an instance in which clearly it needs to be said.
And certainly, I'm not the only person saying this.
Lots of people are saying this.
But just in terms of my perspective on this, it's pretty clear that This is a dire situation, that we should be all very concerned about this trajectory that our country is on right now.
And yet we can still celebrate Alex Honnold as this rallying point, who created this water cooler moment that brought us all together in this unifying experience that reminds us that we share more in common than the differences that divide us.
And also, you know, to really take in his message of possibility and hopefulness that if he could do something like that, we can certainly come together to share our common problems and move forward.
Agreed.
Should we talk about Peter Attia?
Oh, no.
I was afraid you were going to say that.
I mean, we have to talk about it.
We got to talk about it, man.
Peter Attia, you know, longevity, medicine. specialist podcaster, past guest of this podcast.
I think it's not news to anybody at this point, because it's everywhere that he is implicated in the Epstein files.
I think his name was mentioned over a thousand times.
And so all of this has come out his correspondence with Jeffrey Epstein, his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
And I just want to state plainly how disappointing this is.
I'm upset about it.
I'm angry about it.
It's unacceptable.
And it's incredibly disappointing to receive this news as somebody who knows this person.
And look, it's not that hard to refuse associating with a convicted pedophile.
It just isn't.
And I would have hoped that he was somebody who would have exercised better judgment back then.
And really, that is all that needs to be said about this.
You know, I have removed his podcast from our archive.
I've taken down our social media posts that involve him.
And it's just a bummer.
Yeah, it's not that hard to not be in the Epstein files, you know.
And if my only thing is, you know my, I first kind of interface with him, like as a media personality.
I never met him, but my first kind of taste of him was during the COVID pandemic.
And he was saying some things that were like, that I thought were really smart and thoughtful.
And obviously he has that side of him too.
But I didn't realize that whole time, until this all came out and this reporting has come out I didn't realize he wasn't a board certified physician.
This is the first time I heard about that.
So it does call into question kind of for all of us to like, who are we getting our advice from?
Where are we getting it?
Are we sure this is sound advice?
I'm not saying everything he said isn't good.
I mean he's obviously got something.
You know he's done some good, but like it does make us wonder.
If I had known he wasn't a board-certified physician, would I have been impressed with his COVID?
I don't know.
And maybe that shouldn't matter, because I'm not in the medical field.
But hearing it now is kind of like, oh, wow, that too.
And so I read his apology, and I didn't fully buy it, to be quite honest with you.
And so, yeah, I mean, nobody in the files... claims to have seen anything bad, right?
They all have the same similar excuse.
So it's unfortunate.
To me I think okay, is there a lesson that we can learn, or what do we extract from this that we can reflect on?
And when I think about this situation, I see it as a pretty classic case of someone who let the allure or the prospect of proximity to power and wealth and influence warp his moral compass.
This is somebody for whom that was important, and Jeffrey Epstein was a vehicle to that.
And because of that, he allowed this to justify overlooking glaring character flaws and appalling, unlawful and ethically bankrupt behavior for the sake of personal gain or personal eventual aggrandizement.
So on that level, it is a morality tale that I think we could take to heart.
And I think, in the context of the health and well-being and fitness and nutrition, like kind of you know, quote unquote influencer space, you know, whether it's fitness information or nutrition guidance or advice on longevity that you're seeking out, there's a lot of different people on the internet who are saying lots of things.
Some of them are giving good advice and some of them are sociopathic grifters.
And I think we're all well advised to kind of calibrate our credulity monitors a little bit.
And I say that for myself As well.
Like you know, how can I up-level my vetting before having somebody on this show?
You know, I think is one message that I'm taking for myself.
And you know, I think Brad Stolberg said it best when he said you know, you don't need to be a low integrity asshole to be serious about performance.
You can be a good person too.
And I think there are good people out there doing good work.
So yeah, it's left me reflecting upon how I move forward through this, how I message my audience, how I make decisions about who I'm going to engage in conversation across the table here, and my own vulnerabilities to credulity.
You know, like, you know, I think that's worthy of investigation on my part.
I'm as... vulnerable as anybody to being manipulated by charismatic individuals.
And so I'm checking myself on that and doing my own inventory on this, especially as it pertains to folks in the longevity space, because I think there's a lot of nonsense out there right now.
A lot of people who are out over their skis, who are communicating, perhaps an unearned degree of certainty regarding their advice and their counsel.
Yeah, I mean we're all vulnerable to it, because it just is like inherent when you see somebody with a lot of followers and that we think that they've been vetted.
You know what I mean?
We think that's a vetting.
It's like a default thing where our brain just turns off a certain skepticism that often happens.
Now maybe we're more.
We've seen it enough to where we have a little bit more skepticism.
But certainly when social media was first popping, it became oh wow look, I wanna listen to this doctor.
And then, you know, so I think we're all vulnerable to it.
And I don't know if there's an answer like, you know, can't we can't fully know right we can't fully know and some of this stuff gets revealed over the arc of someone's career and he's certainly not alone in in somebody showing up in those files that we are shocked by he's not and so and he's not the worst offender and so by a long shot so it's just this crazy cascade but like you said it's a lesson for us all to like you know the more certain you are of your beliefs tends to be like the real scientists are never sure their beliefs, you know what I mean?
And so that's something that I think we should all take to heart is like It's like we shouldn't be so sure of basically almost anything now, you know, unless it's like a law of physics.
At some point, we have to leave some space for us to know that what we're hearing isn't 100% true.
And the person who's telling it to us is someone to take with a little more skepticism.
Well said.
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All right, let's move on.
A lot of people are asking me about how my recovery from my spinal fusion surgery is going.
So just really quickly, I just eclipsed nine months.
The surgery was May 8th.
We're now, we're recording this on February, what is it, the 9th today, the 10th?
So a couple days past nine months.
At six months, I got the green light to start a very, very low key modest exercise routine.
And I've sort of built on that very gradually.
So for context, in mid November, I had ballooned up to 207 pounds, which is a lot for me.
That's almost as much as I weighed pre kind of life transformation at 40.
I think I was like 210, 215 around that time.
Right, right. what was amazing is how much it snuck up on me.
Like I didn't even realize I was gaining weight.
Obviously I wasn't being physically active.
Uh, and I had the big beard and like the whole thing.
Uh, and I was walking and I knew I was like getting out of shape and getting a little puffy or whatever.
Uh, but then I bought one of those body composition scales, like when it to celebrate like six months.
And I was like, Oh, now I'm going to like really hold myself accountable and get on track.
And it was kind of shocking to realize how much weight I'd gained, but I've lost 30 pounds of it.
I'm down to like 177 now and kind of stabilized there.
My weight is remaining the same, but my body fat percentage is going down and my lean muscle mass is going up, while I stay at this same weight, which feels really good.
So basically just been on the indoor bike trainer, alternating that with days of functional fitness like light lifting, you know kind of like dynamic exercises in this little home gym that I have.
And that's been working good.
And it feels really good to like reconnect with my physical body and remember, like oh, this is what I loved about this.
Because there was a moment there where you know I'm working on this book and I'm walking around the house in a bathrobe with this big beard.
I looked in the mirror.
I was like, what are you going to be Julian Schnabel now?
Like, what is going on?
You know I was like you still have some youth in you.
You know like you don't have to descend into, like you know the pot bellied.
You know like writer guy.
So anyway, uh, nice to know that I can still drop a little bit of weight.
And, uh, I mean, just, I just got really rigorous with my, um, with my nutrition.
I basically just got really binary with it.
Like I basically eat the same thing every day.
Like I eat a big bowl of black beans, that's it.
And then this salad that I get at Erewhon, it's called the, I think it's called the Thai tofu salad.
So it's just like tofu, lettuce, a bunch of veggies in it, carrots and stuff like that.
And so I'm just, I'm modestly calorie restricting.
But not noting it down.
And the main thing is like I cut out like all bread and pasta, like any kind of like refined grains, like that's a big one.
And I cut out like late night snacking and eating.
And just like by adhering to that and keeping things really simple, just progressively it's been working, which is good.
So I'm starting to feel a little bit of vitality come back into my body.
I still have a long way to go.
Like I have, you know, tightness and discomfort in my lower back.
Like the fusion doesn't fully set for 12 to 18 months.
So I have to be very careful.
And so even as I start to get a little bit more fit, I have to hold myself back.
And because I'm writing this book, I have these other rules around my gym time.
So I generally wake up at like 345 or four in the morning.
And I just get a cup of coffee.
I go right into the gym and I restrict my workout to one hour because I've got to get to the page, you know, or I've got to prep for the day's podcast.
Because left to my own devices, I'll just be in the gym for hours.
But a lot of it is me like on my phone or something like that.
So I leave my phone out of the gym.
I set a timer and I go in there and I hold myself to that so that.
I'm not overextending myself and I still have like good energy when I go right into like focused deep work mode after that.
And it's been fun.
It's required a tremendous amount of patience, but it's also allowed me to focus on A the gratitude of being able to do this again after not being able to do it, which has brought a lot more joy into it.
I think in the past, a big part of my relationship with fitness has been so focused on performance goals or, you know, trying to achieve something so that I can be perceived in a certain way.
And that has created at times a bit of an unhealthy or less joyous experience of it.
I still love it, but not always doing it for the right reasons.
And I'm really focused on doing it for um, the nourishing aspects of it, because i love it, not necessarily because it's tied to some kind of performance goal.
I need those goals to progress my way forward, but i'm not so tied to them in like an identity defining way as i have been in the past, which which allows me to kind of have a more relaxed relationship with it.
Um, that has been new different, fun and hopefully, you know, demonstrate some level of like, personal growth on my part.
I think so.
And this opportunity I've said this before to rebuild my body from the ground up, like what a gift.
Like okay, you have to start over from zero.
You gotta wipe the slate clean.
Tabula rasa.
What would you do if you had to relearn how to hold your body position upright, your posture?
What does proper walking form look like?
Forget about running.
What does it mean to do a standing lunge with perfect technique?
And because I'm not in a rush and because I'm so limited in what I'm allowed to do right now, it's allowed me to really hone in and focus on those little details, to build very slowly this brand new foundation that hopefully you know will be very sturdy for longevity reasons, like going down the line, you know, like building on top of something that's very stable, rather than just like Let's just start running again.
You know, forget about, like warming up, or like all the things that I've done, all the mistakes that I've made in the past that you can get away with when you're younger, that I no longer can afford.
But that, like all things, opens the door to possibility and opportunities.
And so like, OK, let's do it right for once, you know, and see what happens that way.
And that's been a fun kind of like construction project.
You know, it's so funny.
I can relate to so much of that.
I was joking last year with you not on the air that your back injury was contagious, because I had the craziest injury year last year.
And not to bore the audience with my little injuries, but I had so many different things, some more significant than others.
And this year I'm doing the same thing.
Like I was trying to reach a certain goal with like weights towards the end of last year.
Now I'm just going to do the lightest weights, where I can feel my actual shoulders working, where I could feel the right muscle working for the right exercise.
I'm rebuilding.
Like.
Now I look at my low back, my herniated disc flare up and I think of it as Like a great wake-up call to finally get my upper back going so that I'm holding myself appropriately, I can finally swim, feeling my actual shoulders working, not the joint, Like I was putting all the pressure on my joint and so I wasn't swimming correctly for like my entire life, and so I can relate to so much of that, and that seems like to be the kind of the call for us as we can if we want to continue to stay active.
You know, and as we get older and older, like it's interesting.
It's hard to do that.
You have to be forced to do that.
And, like I was forced to do it now, this year I'm looking at this year I'm not making any fitness goals.
I just want to be able to, you know, stay contained and build on this and just get like, start doing light stuff and and modest advancement over the course of the year and hopefully just stay healthy.
Like is my goal now.
And it's, um, But you're right.
When you take the pressure off it.
It gives you more time to work and it gives you more time to just enjoy the actual process of it.
100%.
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Let's turn to some listener questions.
Okay.
These are questions you put the call out on Instagram, and these are some that came back.
Awesome.
First listener question.
When all hope seems to be lost, what is the constant reminder or quote you keep telling yourself?
I mean, that's a dark space.
If you're in that headspace where you feel like all hope seems to be lost, that's a dark hole.
It's hard to dig yourself out of it.
And there's no platitude that's gonna snap you out of it.
But when I found myself in those darker moments, there are a couple, I think, things that i can share about how to process that experience, think about it and and slowly claw your way out.
And the first is and all of this i should say up front, like almost all of it uh, germinates from my experience in the in in recovery, in the recovery community, which is a community that has no shortage of quips and phrases and bumper sticker sentences for situations like this.
Not the least of which is, this too shall pass.
Basically, it's like- Wait, that's an AA aphorism?
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if AA invented it, but it's one that gets bandied around in the rooms quite frequently, which is essentially A reminder that, no matter what you're experiencing like, you will not be stuck there.
No matter what, even if you do nothing and just sit in it, it will pass, because everything is always in flux at all times.
And we have this irrational perception of Permanence in our lives, like we just think we are who we are and we're gonna look the way we look and our Lives are gonna be the same.
You know forever more, and that's not how Subatomic particles work.
That's not how the universe works.
There is nothing in the universe, from the largest stars and and and solar systems and galaxies all the way down to you know, sub atomic particles.
That is ever static.
Everything is always in motion constantly, and so, whatever your experience, whatever you're experiencing it, it will change and within that, i think there is room to then understand.
If that's true, then there is always the possibility for hope, no matter how Far down you have fallen.
Like there is always the possibility for hope and a way to see yourself through it.
And so when I think about this conundrum again, I'm always thinking like what is the growth opportunity or what is the learning opportunity of this particular dark moment or hardship that I'm experiencing?
And it's sort of convenient to say this, but I do believe it's true.
Everything that happens to you, especially these negative things, is designed bespoke for your growth and evolution and can be this really powerful change agent, if you decide it to be.
So when you're in the muck generally, it's because you have participated on some level in creating the muck.
And these situations are always beckoning you to look at something about yourself that you'd rather not.
At least that's how it's always been for me.
And so the question then becomes like, if there's a reminder or another kind of like phrase, to turn to it's how did I help create this situation?
What is my part in giving rise to the situation that I'm in right now?
Because the job is to understand the behavior that led you to this place, to own that and then to make amends for how it impacted others another big aa thing how it impacted others negatively and then to figure out how to change your behavior, modify it, going forward to figure out a more you know positive response to a particular stimulus or set of circumstances or way in which you respond or react to.
You know something that happens in your life.
So, Boiling this down to the 12 steps, it maps on pretty seamlessly.
Like step four is the inventory.
This is where you're really doing a thorough and fearless kind of objective forensic analysis of your behavior.
Like how did I get here?
Well, this is how I behave in these situations, getting really honest with yourself.
Step nine is the amends.
Well, this behavior, you know, created all this chaos and harmed these other people in this way.
I need to make that right.
It's not an apology.
Like, how can I serve these other individuals and modify my behavior?
So A I don't behave this way again and I can do whatever I can do to kind of undo whatever harm that I created.
And then step 10 is the daily inventory.
Like this is a daily practice, so that you're in the habit of this analysis, amends and kind of honest accounting of your behavior in advance of finding yourself in these relatively dark holes or hopeless spots, so that you can kind of course correct before they become too dire.
And beyond that, I'm sympathetic to anybody or state of affairs.
I've, I've been there myself.
And if you're in it again like these, words are probably not going to be that helpful, because when you're in it, there's a there's, there's a sense of paralysis.
We've talked about this, Adam.
Like when things are so hard, when somebody says well, you just have to do this one thing or this other thing, like you just, you just can't, like you can't summon the will to do it.
Right.
Um, So when you're in that state or you're in a situation where you just don't know what the next right thing is for you to do to claw your way out of it, my go-to reflex it's always the same is pretty simple.
You just reach out and help somebody else.
Even if you feel like you're at your lowest moment, um to pick up the phone, call somebody you know who's having a hard time.
It just has to be something simple.
It doesn't have to be a big, dramatic overture, because and the reason for this is that it is the antidote to self-obsession it will take you out of your like frame of mind that is so focused on your problem and your world, and by investing yourself in somebody else's, it's not only curative, like it's like this self, like suddenly you're not obsessing on yourself and your problem.
Like that in and of itself ameliorates the pain of whatever situation you're navigating at the time.
And because self-obsession is really the default stance when you are being dismantled.
So if your life's falling apart, everything's going to shit or whatever, you're gonna stew in it and just be thinking about yourself all the time and how you're gonna solve this problem and how terrible it is and why it's unfair and all of these things, none of which are helpful.
Even when you don't know what the next step is, to rebuild or reassemble these pieces that are now kind of splayed out in your fractured life just by investing yourself in somebody else.
It cures you of that self obsession.
It allows your unconscious mind to work on that problem.
And it lowers the anxiety and the fear impulse and all of these other psychological defense mechanisms that actually aren't serving to help you or to solve the problem.
And it's incredibly inspiring.
I mean, it's like two things you said there that, that I can relate to.
The first, you said, this too shall pass.
I remember when I was going through my divorce, it was kind of like my midlife crisis.
It was very painful.
And I felt I was wronged and I felt humiliated and I felt all the things.
And because this was a marriage that hadn't even been a year, you know.
So I felt like all these kinds of unraveling
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And it just felt like all things were unraveling.
And I was at dinner with a friend and my friend Bruce, kind of looked at me and he goes.
You know, in 10 years this whole thing's going to be a blip, just a blip.
And it felt like such, I felt like I was under a boulder.
And the idea of it being a pebble, like I was like, yeah, sure, dude.
You might say that, but, and he was 100% right.
You know, like it's been over 10 years now.
And It was a blip, but man, was it heavy at the time.
And now I consider it a total blip.
Even though I guess what happened hasn't changed, my relationship to it has changed to the point where I don't feel victim, victimized at all, and so it's like my entire perception has shifted.
So it's not just that the incident is smaller, it's that my understanding of it is completely morphed through time and so like it's not just that it passes, it's like your relationship to the events completely change, And that's hard to remember.
While it's painful, it's very hard.
And most people can't and it doesn't really matter.
You just have to survive the day.
But I think that that really resonates.
And then in terms of service, I meant years ago, I was down at the border doing some stories.
And this was at the time where asylum cases were in Mexico and waiting.
And so they were like, this was, I think it was Nogales.
It was outside Tucson.
I was down at the border.
And I went to this one place that offered one meal a day to all the asylum cases.
And so for many of them, that was their only meal they were going to eat that day.
But it was being, you know, Tucson volunteers were coming to serve it.
So it was like gringos from north of the border were coming to put the meals out.
And then it was all migrants from all over the world that happened to come through, that were waiting on the southern border.
And of all the people lined up, there was one guy who that was out there sweeping the sidewalk in the street.
And he wasn't just waiting in line.
He was sweeping the sidewalk in the street.
This is in Mexico, sweeping the street.
And he was a Honduran immigrant whose family was in the United States now.
And Honduras at that time was falling apart.
It was like a narco state.
We know that, right?
It's been famously detailed and it was extremely unsafe.
And it was basically a failed state, almost a failed state.
And so that's why a lot of Hondurans were coming here.
And so he was there and he was basically he couldn't do anything.
He couldn't work in Mexico.
He didn't have money.
He was in this line for the handout lunch, but he was sweeping the sidewalk in the street.
And then when we went in, he wasn't just waiting to be served.
He was wiping down the tables.
He was he was he wasn't just sitting there and taking the meal.
He wanted to be a part of it.
And then when it came time to say a prayer, Guess who spoke up?
And it's just so interesting because I'll never forget that.
It was extremely inspiring.
I remember talking to other people about it.
It was always inspired.
Everybody I talked to, it's extremely inspiring.
And it's a great example of the service idea of someone who is in a situation he could not control.
And so he chose to be an active participant.
It's hard to do, man, one person out of the whole group that I saw doing that.
It's not easy, what you're saying, it's not easy.
But if you can pull it off, there's so much power in it, it's so inspiring.
It's a beautiful story, yeah.
Cool, all right, let's do the- Next one.
For those who are all or nothing, is a middle ground possible in health and nutrition?
No, it's impossible.
Sorry.
Either you're just all in or completely out.
What about me makes you think all or nothing?
I am like the least all or nothing person ever.
I am an all or nothing person.
But, you know, I've grown a little bit.
I would say that I'm evidence of somebody who is slowly getting used to not being an all or nothing personality.
Because you've been all and you've been nothing a couple of different times.
You go back and forth, you know.
You take the high with the low.
Pendulum.
Yeah.
It's exciting.
It is exciting.
You know what I mean?
It's exciting.
You know, that's the thing when you get sober and you're like well, everything's just kind of like the curve gets flattened.
Right.
And you're like, yeah, it's all boring.
You're like Ray Liotta at the end of Goodfellas.
It's like, you know, I'll take those lows for the highs and, you know, all of that.
So, you know, I get that.
I'm, you know, I am as prone to extremes as anybody else.
For those of you who relate to that.
You know that not only is it, like I said exciting, like it's dopaminergic, you know it's very energizing.
It's a productive form of energy that drives life results.
There's no question about it.
But Like all superpowers, they have their kryptonite.
And I think for the all-in kind of personality, it can be quite destructive.
If you don't check it, at the very best, it's gonna lead you in the direction of burnout.
But it can also be completely ruinous because it runs roughshod over everything else in your life.
So- if you are an extreme personality, congratulations.
It is something that you can leverage for good, you know, and it can be a very powerful animating life force that, can you know, drive you to achieve great things.
But it has to be properly harnessed and deployed in strategic doses that Make room for recovery, room to you know, nourish yourself and to make sure that you are attending to the other things in your life that are important.
Because if you don't do that, you're going to your whole life is going to implode ultimately.
Like there is this dark, dark side of the extreme personality archetype.
And I think what's also instructive, or perhaps hopefully valuable, is trying to understand what is beneath that archetype.
Like what is driving that proclivity to just go all out.
Like you know, pedal to the metal like all the time.
And if you really deconstruct it, it's generally being driven by an imposter syndrome, profound sense of unworthiness uh, low self-esteem.
This like deep-seated need to like, prove yourself to earn acceptance, or or or love um, because without without it or without what it gets you, you are like and i know this, i'm saying this personally like there's a sense of not deserving love, like you have to earn it, you have to go out and do these things and like, ply your extreme personality trait to achieve things to, you know, show the world and prove to yourself that you are, you know, worthy of breathing air and deserving of, of being, you know, accepted and and loved by by other people.
So obviously that's a sort of broken psychological state.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that a lot of extreme behavior is being driven or underscored by fear.
And I think once you realize this, it becomes incumbent upon you to try to figure out how to understand that impulse within yourself.
At first, learning how to channel it at the right time and quell it when it's leading your life astray.
But ultimately, the job is to figure out how you're going to heal it.
And that's scary because it's like asking somebody to, you know, shirk their superpower.
Like hey, this superpower, this thing that you're so attached to, that you've crafted an entire identity around.
Like, I'm the all-in person.
I go hard and I go all day or I can outwork everybody in the room.
This gets intertwined into your identity and then The prospect of like letting it go or disentangling yourself from it feels like a threat.
Yeah.
Like you're not going to want to do that.
Right.
Because if you don't have that, then you're not going to be able to like achieve your goals or pursue your dreams.
So and beyond that, it's like it also gets into your how you view yourself when you look in the mirror.
Who am I if I'm not the person who operates this way?
And that's a threat, but this is a process that I would say that I'm in.
And I think there's liberation on the other side of that, you know, because once you realize like, hey, you know, maybe you're not an imposter or maybe you're not completely, you know, useless or unlovable.
There's a self-love, you know loving kindness, kind of compassion that will lead to, you know, becoming a healthier, more fully actualized, you know, human being.
And it also requires that you deconstruct this perfectionism myth.
I think, if you're striving to these extremes, you are wed on some level to this idea that perhaps you can be perfect, or there is this perfection that you're chasing.
And that's a recipe for unhappiness.
Like you're never gonna achieve that.
You're setting yourself up for a life of frustration and discontent.
I was listening when I was on my long drive the other day to a podcast with David Senra's podcast who hosts the Founders podcast.
He's so good at podcasting and he's kind of obsessed with the people who are the best in the world at something.
And he was reviewing Andre Agassi's memoir, Open.
And he does such a great job of like kind of deconstructing, like these life lessons out of this book Senra does.
But there's this part in that incredible memoir where Andre Agassi is, you know, losing all the time and he's miserable.
He hates tennis, but he brings Brad Gilbert into the equation to become his coach.
And Brad's the guy who's like, you've got to let go of this perfectionism.
You go out onto the court and every shot, you want it to be like the perfect shot.
You're trying to be perfect in every volley.
And he's like, you don't have to be perfect.
You just have to beat this guy and you're so much better than this guy.
If you would just release that attachment to perfectionism and just hit the ball and play tennis, you're gonna win, like almost every time.
And it wasn't until he could kind of grok that and really release his relationship with perfectionism that he was able to begin not only winning again but enjoying tennis.
And this becomes a big piece in his equation for curing himself of his dissatisfaction with life.
And then, of course, service becomes this huge piece.
He realizes that that's really the only thing that's important, that gives his life meaning, which goes back to the importance of, of our self obsession through simple acts of service to other people.
But I just thought that was so interesting that somebody who is so good at what he does the best in the world, Andre Agassi, is in this process of constant self flagellation.
And I think a lot of extreme personality tendencies emanate from that place.
Like I have to go harder than everyone else and prove to others and to myself that I can do this thing.
And it's almost a martyrdom practice.
It is a means of self-flagellation that ultimately becomes unhealthy.
And fundamentally on the identity piece, it's just a story.
I'm the guy who like works there.
I'm the guy who does that.
This is who I am or whatever. it's not real, you know?
You've just decided that it's real, and you have the power to rewrite that narrative.
That's interesting.
And I'm not saying it's easy because, like I said, I'm kind of in this process right now, so I'll keep you posted.
Which is interesting because you're very generous to I mean, You don't, you don't expect that kind of all or nothing from the people that you work with?
You don't expect it from your kids.
You're not like that to anybody but yourself.
Right.
Like and that also is, I think, a hallmark for this all or nothing thing.
Most of it is just in inwardly projected, not necessarily outward.
I guess it can be.
But like and so I just find that I just want to flag that for you.
What do you think of that?
No, I don't expect, I don't layer that template on anyone else and expect them to.
You know kind of pursue things you know in the way that I do, or have you know like I don't think it's the you know a great way.
Like I was with.
I was with Malcolm Gladwell a couple of weeks ago and we're talking and he looks at me and he goes the thing about you is You always have to do it the hard way.
He says that to you?
Yeah, he goes, you always have to make it the hardest thing.
You know it's like.
You know the diet and the ultra, like all the and the swimming and the.
You know like it's like.
Why are you making it all so hard?
And I was like, I don't know, it was a pretty good, that's a good question.
I can't help it.
So then you don't have to be all or nothing.
If you could just give one or two pieces of advice, how do you find the middle?
How do you orient towards the middle?
What would be your advice there?
I think just giving yourself permission to not be perfect and to not self-flagellate for falling short of some imagined standard that you're setting for yourself, that you have invested the stakes of your identity in, and just being a little bit more gentle with yourself.
And I think this surgery recovery process has been really nourishing and instructive in this process for me, because I'm not under any illusion that I'm trying to get back to becoming the person I was before the athlete or whoever it is.
I'm interested in.
You know who I can become as a direct result of being forced to sit still and like marinate in my you know inadequacies and find a way to have compassion for myself and figure out a way forward that is nourishing but detached from identity stakes.
You know what I mean.
And so finding that middle ground is about giving yourself permission, with compassion, to not have to live up to some imaginary standard, because your self-worth is on the line.
The only thing I would add to that is the conception of self can also change.
And if you think of yourself, not just this contained being born here, living there, doing this, not doing that.
If you think of it more in an expansive way is that I am energy here on earth.
And if you start to go into mindfulness, if you start to get into meditation, even if you sit for five minutes a day in a beautiful place, on a park bench or in your house, five or 10 minutes a day, that can start to be untangled.
And then really what you are is more than just your self-contained personality.
It's more than what you like and don't like.
It's more than what you've done and haven't done.
It's so much bigger.
And so if we can connect, and which you've talked about so many times, if you can connect to that higher consciousness also at the same time then you'll find all the rest of it is almost minuscule and you can feel more relaxed in in in staying in this middle balanced place it's it's um it can really recharge your life in an entirely different way Yeah, and like whatever you're going through is unlikely to be something that gets brought up at your memorial after you pass for perspective.
Unless you're climbing Taipei 101, then it might come up.
Maybe, yeah, that's an exception.
All right, one more question.
All right, best advice to change a 37-year career that has you burned out?
That's a tailor-made ritual question.
Yeah, it's a little tricky because it's unclear whether this career was something that was unfulfilling all along or whether it was fulfilling.
But now, after 37 years, this person is burned out.
So with that in mind, it's difficult to kind of know which thread to pull on here.
I mean, listen, there's a couple of things you can do.
I mean, you can quit.
You can.
I don't know the circumstances of this person's life, but life is short.
And if you are that burned out and that unhappy, that is always a possibility.
I'm not saying it's easy.
I'm not even saying it's the right thing for you to do or rational.
And we all have responsibilities and mouths to feed and bills to pay and all the like.
So I don't say that cavalierly.
In most instances, that is not the solution. my best suggestion is to invest in your curiosity.
You can stay in this career without quitting it.
Perhaps you can ameliorate the burnout or find meaning in other aspects of your life.
That serves as a buffer for whatever you're experiencing in your career.
So this is not to say just, well, quit your job and go pursue your passion.
But I think, For those that are feeling a lack of direction or a little bit of confusion as to what to do next at a certain stage of life, my go-to kind of default move is always to pivot to curiosity.
Where does your curiosity naturally gravitate towards?
And not judging it, but making the choice to follow it without judging it like oh, Maybe it's something you always wanted to do, that you never gave yourself permission to do.
It could be a simple fun, little you know hobby that you spend a half an hour a week on, or something like that.
But I think, saying yes to that, once you start developing the muscle memory and the habit of that yes, and really carving time out of your day to whether it's journal or some other kind of mindfulness practice to really hone your attention on your curiosity and take inventory of what it's trying to tell you or where it's trying to lead you, and honoring that as a sacred practice that will lead you to other opportunities and other opportunities from that and so on and so on, to create a domino effect that will eventually almost guaranteed set you on a trajectory that will lead you to some place where you're going to find some kind of meaning.
Maybe it's a job.
It's not necessarily a new job or a new career, but something that will provide your life with the meaning that your career is not able to do for you.
And it's really as simple as that, I think.
I think the other point and we were discussing this question before the podcast is if it is a situation in which you've been in this career for 37 years and you've never liked it.
Right.
Like not for nothing.
Like maybe we need to have a conversation about your relationship with healthy confrontation.
Like how have you allowed yourself to stay in a situation for nearly four decades that was not nourishing to you?
And again, there's real life circumstances that come into play here.
Like sometimes you suck it up and you do this thing that you don't really like doing, because you're responsible for other people and I'm not, so I'm not, you know, dismissing that in any way.
But I think there is something to be learned by reflecting on that question a little bit.
Like you know, what is it inside of you that made it okay for you to live?
You know, a gigantic chunk of your life in a substandard situation that was, you know that left you burned out and and and feeling uh, more empty than perhaps you thought you would after spending 37 years doing a certain thing yeah, healthy confrontation.
What can you do to adjust that or address that and how can you overcome whatever personality default trait or you know kind of reflexive decision making strategy that you have that you know landed you there?
And that goes back to kind of the step four inventory.
Like.
You need to inventory your decision making, your behavior, your avoidant tendencies.
You know all of these things that contribute to create over time, contribute to creating this life that you're experiencing now.
That's interesting.
Healthy confrontation.
I never heard that phrase before.
I have a problem with basically all confrontation, healthy and unhealthy.
So I feel if this person is there, I get it.
I've been able to like figure out a way to live a life that is meaningful and kind of self-actualized, regardless of that, somehow.
While dodging confrontation all along.
I think it's because I know how to build rapport.
And so my rapport, My building of rapport has allowed me to dodge the confrontation.
You're a political animal.
Is that what it is?
Yeah.
I don't know if I'm revealing too much here.
I think that's very well said.
The curiosity piece is always like- Well, that comes into play here as well.
Getting curious about what led you to this place and getting curious about what another chapter might look like for you.
Yeah, and then also just being curious about something you always wanted to follow.
However you ended up here, that also helps.
But the big piece here and it's not unrelated to the service idea is trying to find something that is bigger than yourself.
And this often gets couched in like a mission, like what's your mission?
It's like Scott Harrison, he's gonna solve the global clean water crisis.
There's grand visions like that, but it doesn't have to be that big.
It just has to be about something that is contributive beyond like your personal aggrandizement.
So it can't just be like I need more money, I need a bigger salary, or I need a corner office or something like that.
It's like what are you actually doing with your limited time on earth that is additive, in a way that is benefiting a cause, other people or something else that is larger than your personal concerns in your life?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Beautiful stuff, because if you could find that, or even if it's just like you always wanted to play guitar and you never allowed yourself to do it and you pick it up and you spend 15 minutes a day doing it, it's like that love can just inspire where the burnout had left you.
It could fill that burnout space.
Even if it just makes you happy, then you're a happier person and then your interactions with other people are better and then that sets in motion a chain reaction of events that you know is is very gradually but, but you know, most certainly moving your life in a different and better direction.
A hundred percent.
All right.
We did it.
That's it for roll on today.
All right.
We're done, dude.
That's it.
Okay.
I promised we would land this plane under 90 minutes.
We got there.
We got it.
All right.
We'll be back soon with more.
Thank you, my friend.
Thanks, man.
Cheers.
Peace.
That's it for today.
Thank you for listening.
I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation.
To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richrollcom, where you can find the entire podcast archive.
My books Finding Ultra Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way.
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Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo.
The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake.
Content Management by Shana Savoy.
Copywriting by Ben Pryor.
And, of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis.
Appreciate the love.
Love the support.
See you back here soon.
Peace.
Plants.
