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And what I found is that pressure doesn't attract success and joy.
And being passive doesn't attract success and joy.
And the only place that does is peace.
And peace is me saying, I'm going to do everything I can and then leave the result up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is around me.
But I'm going to do everything I possibly can because I think there may be a lot of people listening right now who are doing something where they studied for it, they were educated for it.
They worked hard for it.
Their parents maybe even were really impressed that they did it.
And now they're at an age where they're going, I think I want to change my career.
Yeah, like I don't think that satisfies me anymore.
The number one health and wellness podcast, Jay Shetty, Hey, everyone.
Welcome back to On Purpose.
I'm your host, Jay Shetty, and I am so grateful that you've decided to join me today.
This is a very special episode because I'm in Qatar at website and right now I'm sitting inside the I heart studio and there are people around the studio who have headphones on who can listen to the podcast.
Hello, everyone outside.
We've never done this before ever, which is awesome.
And I'm really excited because my best friend of nearly the last two decades now is in the house.
He recently moved to Dubai.
We're in Doha. He's flown over so that we can hang out because we now need to schedule hang out, because that's what happens with adult friendships.
I'm so grateful because I thought I'd invite him on the show today, so that we can share some of the most pivotal moments of our friendship, career's life over the last two decades.
I thought it would be a special treat for you.
So, welcome to the episode, Nundah, who is in the studio with me.
Nundah, thanks for joining me!
Thanks so much, Jay.
I can't believe that we've known each other for 19 years, and we speak probably three times a week and you choose to drop about half an hour ago that I'd like to bring you onto the podcast.
Like give me an opportunity to prepare, this is my big moment and literally I'm eating a burger and you're like actually I think you should come on the podcast number.
That's exactly what happened.
We were having a casual conversation even though we have three casual conversations a week and I was just like, yeah, you know it'd be really fun, we've never done this before and it'd be a really good idea I thought it would be fresh for my amazing community for sure to hear about our friendship, life, the journey that we've both been on, the journey that I've been on through your perspective, and yes just so everyone knows Nanda had no time to prepare, we both came up with this well no he didn't come up with this idea.
I came up with this idea 30 minutes ago and here we are.
So let's dive in. I've known Nanda ever since before I became a monk and I remember actually saying that to you I wanted to do that.
I then even talked to you when I was leaving the monastery and all the challenges of reintegration of my health and everything else, all the way through to which we'll talk about some of these events of spending time in New York together in the early stages of my career, LA and now all the way through to Dubai and Doha.
And so where should we start, Nanda?
Well, it's just incredible to think 19 years is a long, long time.
And I certainly remember the first time I did meet you back in 2006.
a mix. And yeah, that journey that you just talked about.
The thing that just jumps to me is I think people already know a little bit about your desire to become a monk.
And when I first met you, you were out of the box thinker.
You were like, OK, I know I can crush it in the corporate world, but I want to do something different.
So I really want to start with when you left the Ashram.
And the reason I want to start with that is because I remember that conversation very, very clearly, you were heartbroken because Because you went in with a very clear idea of, I'm doing this for life.
I'm signed up. We've spoken about it many times before, for those of you that don't know Jay.
He's an all or nothing guy.
A real extremist in the sense of if I'm going to achieve something, I'm going to go all in.
So, I want you to really share...
How did that feel? Because I guess that was the first inverted commerce failure for something that was really core to who you were, and what you wanted to do as you're offering to the world.
Well, I want people to know also that now we're friends, but in the beginning of our relationship you were my mentor, because you'd been practicing spirituality for far longer than me.
So when I first came in, you were someone that I turned to for advice, and of course I still do that today as a friend.
But at that time it was very much so.
You were sharing with me experience, insight, and so it was natural for me to come to you at that time.
And I've always described it like a divorce, because I think that's the only analogy that It doesn't make sense for someone who doesn't know what it feels like to become a monk and leave.
It feels like I got married for three years to the love of my life.
And then I figured out that it wasn't going to last and that it wasn't going to work.
So the heartbreak you'd feel from a breakup or a divorce is the heartbreak I felt from leaving the monastery because, let me paint a picture for everyone.
I really didn't know what I was going to do.
I think a lot of people feel like I had a plan or I had a strategy or I knew what I was gonna do.
I had no clue. And if I'm completely honest, I was really scared about going back to the workplace because I was worried.
I was thinking, wait a minute, do I have to go back into consulting or finance or business because that's what I would have done.
Will I be able to make it in that space?
How will I be able to survive?
I've been doing what I love for three years, which is study wisdom, teach it, share, do a lot of philanthropy work.
That's what I've been doing.
How am I going to do that in the workplace?
So I had no clarity.
I was moving back in with my parents, which felt like a failure.
I remember the community having judgment over my decision.
100%. Right? It wasn't like I came back to a fanfare of.
No, there wasn't. Yeah.
In a bizarre way, there were certainly some people that were like, oh, really you think you can do this?
And so when you didn't end up doing it because of the health challenges and other reasons that came up.
Yeah, I'm sure it would have been a real kick in the face And I think and we speak about this all the time in terms of plot twist But the way the journey has then unfolded is is really remarkable But I certainly remember those early days where it was like, I just need to pay my bills Like what am I gonna do?
Like what is what is my core skill set here?
And I'm sure you've shared it in other places But all the different jobs you're applying to all the rejections you got yeah, we watch.
Yeah we read it in books all the time, but this is real.
This is real life. And for me, it's been an inspiration seeing you on this journey.
And one of the things I want to talk about on this podcast, in the five minutes you gave me to prepare, was this idea of the beast mindset that you can clock into.
And we speak about this all the time.
Jay has this belief that everyone can unlock this part of their brain that really fulfills their potential.
And I think that in those times of challenge that's when when your back was against the wall you really found out who you were and I guess you also found out who your friends were in that moment.
Yeah I always look back to a piece of advice that Thomas Power, one of my other mentors in life would often say to me he'd say that when you're in moments of pain that's when you'll find your potential.
And whenever he used to say that I used to be like yeah yeah all right.
Yeah okay like I know my potential.
I'm pretty okay, I'll figure it out." And then when I was in those moments, so at that time, when we're talking about right now, I was rejected from 40 companies.
And I didn't even get an interview at those companies.
And I'm someone who got a first class degree.
Yeah. And so not getting an interview at 40 companies, and I'm saying this not for you to think, oh, Jay, you're amazing.
I'm saying this because I actually feel a lot of you might be in this position right now where you're trying to make a transition in your career, You're trying to make a new job.
You're trying to sell a new product You're building a new business and all you're getting is rejection after rejection after rejection And that experience what it gave to me was two things One was all you need is one.
Yes. All you need is one.
Yes. All I needed was one company Accenture to say we're gonna give you a shot.
Yeah, and we're gonna put you on a graduate scheme at 25 26 years old But we're gonna give you a shot So that's one thing.
And the second thing I learned is that it's all a game of odds.
It's all about the law of odds.
And what I mean by that is it is simply as basic as the more doors you knock on, the more open.
So if you've not had any open doors, you just haven't knocked on enough.
And so I think I learned those two really critical skills.
And then fast forward a few years later, which we'll get to when I was four months away from being broke it was the same principles I had to go back to was all you need is one yes, and if no doors have opened you just haven't knocked on enough.
One of the interesting things about that is, in order to knock on doors you need humility because the likelihood is you're going to knock on the door and it's not going to open, it's going to take that much.
In the monastery obviously we focus very much on the principle of humility, and again it sounds great in the books.
But can you actually live it?
Like if this is really my service in life.
And I'm obviously thinking about it now, like I transitioned from law to what I'm doing now, which is as a leadership coach and an entrepreneur, and trying to sell.
That's not natural to me.
It's really uncomfortable actually.
And the reason it's uncomfortable is because I have to go to people and say, would you like my service?
I'm very happy to provide the service.
But yeah, I think it requires real humility and continuing to do it not from a place of desperation but really from a place of service, and I think you nailed that.
And that's why, as we say, the universe reciprocated.
Yeah, that's a really fine point you brought out, and it's challenging because I think we operate from two places as humans.
One is passive, and so we're like, oh, it will happen when it happens.
if the universe provides, it will work out just the way it's meant to.
And we say these phrases, but beneath them, there's an insecurity and an uncertainty.
And the opposite way we function as humans is we're pressured.
So we think, oh, my gosh, that person's already sold their company and they're only 35.
And oh, my gosh, that person just made a hundred thousand dollars doing that.
And oh, my God, so there's pressure.
So we either function from being passive, it will happen when it's happening, or pressure.
oh my God, it's not happening for me.
And what I found is that pressure doesn't attract success and joy, and being passive doesn't attract success and joy.
And the only place that does is peace.
And peace is me saying, I'm going to do everything I can and then leave the result up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is around on me, but I'm gonna do everything I possibly can.
And it goes back to your point.
And by the way, I've seen you do this.
And I think it's important to talk about it through stories that people may not be familiar with.
You were a really successful lawyer, you were doing great.
I was. And you decided that it wasn't fulfilling you.
And I actually wanna ask you about that because I think there may be a lot of people listening right now who are doing something where they studied for it, they were educated for it, They worked hard for it, their parents maybe were really impressed that they did it.
And now they're at an age where they're going, I think I'm going to change my career.
Like I don't think this satisfies me anymore.
And it's harder when you've done something like law which took years of training, years of building up.
How did you get comfortable with giving up your feeling around sunk cost bias?
For anyone who doesn't know, sunk cost bias is an economic term which means I've already invested so much time, money, or energy down this path – and usually what it does is it keeps you on that path, because you think I've invested too much to let it go.
That's why people don't change careers.
It's why people don't break up from relationships.
It's why people don't do any of those things.
For you, what finally gave you confidence to say, you know what?
Even though I'm really good at law, even though I make a really good living, even though I have a family and two kids, I'm still going to take a risk.
because in my eyes, me going off to become a monk was a risk, but you pivoting your career at that age was also a risk.
What got you there?
It was a huge risk.
And it was in terms of the investment in the sunk cost was a three -year law degree, a one -year LPC, a two -year training contract, and then 10 years post -qualified in law.
So, that's a lot of years of studying to try and become a specialist in something.
And at that point, I think two things happened.
You get the golden handcuffs, i .e.
the salary goes up, And whilst the salary is going up, your standard of living has also gone up.
You've then got the mortgage.
As you know, at that point, I was already married with two kids as well.
So it was a huge risk.
But I think it came, I mean, I certainly got some courage from you.
Uh, and I'm really grateful for those walks around central London, when you were in that period of transition and you're encouraging me.
And I remember you specifically saying, Hey, Nanda, I, you know, when you're at your best is when you're talking to people and when you're coaching people and when you're public speaking.
So why don't you do that?" And I'm like, Bro, that's not a career.
That's not a career, unless I'm speaking in court.
That's not a career.
So you really helped me think outside of the box and you touched on the cultural nuances, and you joke about it all the time, right?
Like as an Indian, it's a doctor, a lawyer, what's the third one.
A failure. Or a failure.
Right, exactly. So you were already winning.
I was already winning in life.
My mom was happy, my dad was My grandparents were happy.
I was the chosen one when I'd go to family events.
All of a sudden, what I found was they were resisting the change.
Not because they didn't love me, but simply because they had also come to the country.
Security was their primary driver.
Out of love, they were like, why would you want to do this?
You're now so close to where you ultimately want to be, but of course, I think that's where spirituality really comes in because it makes us think about, where do we really want to be and what really makes us thrive?
So in my case I found a huge amount of courage from the fact that the bits that I enjoyed in law were like when I talked to clients or when I would do conferences within the legal industry or business development People people people so I was like, okay, I like it Fortunately enough, I managed to go to a four -day week on my non working day I worked and I got myself qualified as an ICF credit coach I started working and I got the feedback the validation to say this is a runner this can work and so yeah the rest is history but it wasn't easy by any means but I often say you need cheerleaders around
you at that time, because self -doubt is gonna be all over you.
And so I'm so grateful to you because I really feel like you were a pivotal person, just as I was a pivotal person for you when you were younger at that particular time you reciprocated tenfold, because you were there for me and made me believe it's possible.
Yeah, no, because I saw it.
And I think this is, you're so right.
This is why our friends are so important in being honest with us.
In noticing our strengths, being honest about our weaknesses, noticing our values.
And I always say to people, if any of you are struggling with what you should do for work, sometimes just go around to your friends and meet them one -on -one and say, hey, have a really honest discussion with me.
What do you think is my number one skill?
What do you think I'm actually good at?
And your friend might be like, you plan the best parties.
Like that's what you're good at.
Or, you know what? But whenever there's a big event coming up, you're really good at event planning.
And all of a sudden, I've done this with my sister and I've seen that.
My sister's always organized lots of retreats, she's organized a lot of events.
She's really talented at that.
It isn't her career.
And I'm constantly nudging her in that direction and saying, hey, have you thought about wedding planning?
Have you thought about birthday planning?
Have you thought about event planning?
But what I loved about watching you make that transition was that I think a lot of people think, Oh, when I get a million followers, then I'll make a transition.
Oh, when I make X amount of money, then I'll make a transition.
And you were actually making it while you were there.
And the sign of success was good feedback.
And so I think not postponing that transition, that pivot, that switch.
And I love what you said, because I think this is true for everyone.
You have to have one foot in either boat at the beginning.
So you were gone down to four day week, one day became coaching, studying.
weekends became that, going, doing the exams, the course.
And when you've got one foot in each boat, once you're confident enough, you then take the other leap, rather than what I think a lot of us do is we've got two feet in one boat.
The other boat's so far away, and you go, oh, no, it's all about the jump, but it's all about the leap, and you kind of amp yourself up.
Then you jump, and then you fall into the water, and now you're drowning because you're like, wait a minute, I don't even know where the other boat is.
And so I don't want to glorify risk because I think a lot of people will be like, you have to take a risk, you've got to do something big, you've got to take a leap and I'm like, well, you've got to be a little bit measured and a little bit practiced as well.
If you've got a mortgage to pay, absolutely.
But I think this point around understanding the difference between your self -awareness and external feedback and getting that balance right, because yeah, we can amp things up in our own head and we can think we're the greatest speaker and the greatest coach or the greatest podcast host, but actually, the validation of course comes from the outside world and if you're doing a good job but you're gonna find out very quickly.
I think you're gonna find out quickly but you're also gonna feel really good.
For me like even if I was doing a good job in law I didn't feel good so that for me that internal compass was always very clear this wasn't what I was meant to be doing and we speak about this all the time in terms of finding purpose and it's a big pressure like people come up all the time saying how do I find my purpose but it very much is journey and it's not going to be something that you sit down one day, meditate and have that aha moment.
You've got to go and do things.
You've got to be aware of what have I been doing.
So you'd always say to me, actually, as long as I've known you, you've always been doing public speaking.
When I met you, that's what you were doing.
Exactly. So that was my go -to.
So it was an easy thing for me to do.
It's actually knowing that and then having someone to validate that and support you along the way.
Yeah, I read something recently which I think is called the Pygmalion Effect.
I don't know if you've come across it.
But it's this idea that we're better at doing things when we think people believe in us.
Yes. And so it's when they told teachers that these kids are performing well and so teachers started to treat them better.
Yes. And then the kids performed better even though they weren't any different.
And that's a quick version of it you can check it out.
But what was really interesting about it was we can also do that to ourselves.
And so it works when we set higher standards for ourselves, we start treating ourselves in that way and it goes back to your beast mode point of you rise to your standards and I think a lot of us don't know what that means because I think when we set high standards we usually feel we fail.
We usually feel, oh no, I'm going to feel like I failed so I might as well just set a lower standard.
And one thing I've noticed in high performers that I really appreciate is high standards matched with high grace.
And so if you look at the best people in the world, I love this commencement speech that Roger Fedra just gave, I'm sure you saw it.
And he talks about how in his career, he's lost a ridiculous amount of points, I can't remember the exact number, but he's lost a ridiculous amount of points, like almost 40 % of points or 45 % of points.
And you think, wait a minute, how could one of the greatest have lost 45 % of points?
And he says, because all I've got to do when I lose a point is focus on the next one and he said if I sit there and I'm constantly thinking about the last point and how I should have responded and how I should have hit it and how I should have placed it now, all of a sudden my attention's gone on the next point and now I've lost the next point and that just continues.
So I love that idea that greatness came from having a high expectation of winning every point But then they're having enough grace to say actually if I focus on the last point I'm gonna lose the next point as well Yeah, and I think it's interesting that you know You were moved by that commencement speech because every single commencement speech follows that same pattern if you've noticed Yes, right is it is failure to success and yet somehow we are surprised that all of these people have failed And and it's the same for me.
It's like if people think would would Jase failed?
I'm like, yeah, he's not he's that like crushing blows along the way But he kept going and it's interesting, like, law, you know, is a real perfectionist mindset.
It comes from a strong academic background.
And so, that is what you're judged on and so, you're not meant to make mistakes but as we all know, mistakes are how you make the journey.
Yeah, that's how you learn.
It's going to happen along the way and I think one thing that I remember, which was really important, part of our friendship and I wanted to talk about certain events, it was definitely that.
So, I started working at Accenture and I was working at a client that was close by to your law firm, so every lunchtime we'd go on like an hour walk around London and we'd have these conversations nearly every day while I was at this client.
By the way, just in case my former employers are listening, I wasn't meant to have been gone for an hour, right?
I think it's probably meant to be a client meeting.
I think that's true for me.
But we'd go on this hour walk and these are the conversations we'd have, and it shows you how important that friendship is, how important that connection is.
And I think we were both looking for an escape.
But the thing is, we weren't just then making our time together entertainment, our time together became these conversations.
You had done your, you were thinking about doing a coaching diploma, or you just done it at that particular point.
And I just remember this idea of you need to invest in yourself in order to move forward.
So at the time, you were really getting to psychometrics.
Like disc was the one that you would be rolling out constantly.
And then it was NBTI.
and more recently, as you know, I just got qualified in a particular one.
And what I loved about that was it showed me that validation is very important to me.
So, even from a personality perspective, that is important to me.
Yeah. So, how do I process that information?
I should be aware that I'm going to be looking for that validation, but also know that potentially it could trip me up because if I don't get that validation, what do I do?
Do I stop? So, I think, you know, really investing in yourself is so critical and we were taught it obviously from a spiritual perspective from a young age as we were coming through the monastery and so on.
But even in normal business life, the moment you stop learning and growing I think is the moment you start to feel like you're losing momentum in life and lose that joy.
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But you start nursery at whatever, three, four years old, and then you're basically at school until 18, and if you go to university or college, then you're there until 21, or maybe a bit older if you do law, or medicine, or whatever it may be, or a postgrad.
And what's really interesting is that from the moment you're three or four years old, every year, up until 21 is pretty much mapped out.
So you don't actually have to think, when you complete fourth grade.
What comes next? You go to fifth grade, then you go sixth grade, and then you go to seventh, and then eighth, and then ninth, and 10th.
and you never had to think.
There's no ownership, there's no ownership.
And what ends up happening is as soon as you get to 21, and let's say you get a job, you get a grad job, you start a job, now, all of a sudden, your whole trajectory is up to you.
Do you stay at this place, do you network for a promotion, do you take on extracurricular, do you quit your job and get promoted somewhere else, do you switch, do you...
All of a sudden at 21 years old, it's like, well, now we're not gonna tell you what to do for the next 50 years.
And so I think everyone is at a disadvantage yes because you haven't had to use your brain for all of those years all of a sudden you have to use your brain and now you're scared, so you're asking everyone around you What should I do?
Is this the right path for me?
Should I quit my job?
Should I get married?
Should I not? Should I not?
Right? and that confusion I have a lot of empathy because of that because we weren't made to make decisions early enough Now I'm not saying that a four -year -old should be deciding what they're studying at university That's not the point, but they have to start becoming a little bit of ownership about direction and about choice, because that's how you build confidence in yourself.
Most of us have never made a major life decision until 25, 30 years old.
No wonder we're crippled by the anxiety and the stress and the pressure that comes with that because you didn't have to think about anything that was that complicated for like 18 years.
It actually links really well to the discussion we're having last night around.
And so, as I mentioned, I've got two kids.
And the question is, how do you raise kids in this world?
It was a really fascinating discussion, this idea of pushing them to take responsibility, not remaining under the shelter of your parents, because although it's going to be uncomfortable for them, that's the only way they're going to learn.
That's the way you're going to get the life skills, to be an independent thinker, to be someone who's really gonna go out and be able to make those difficult decisions.
Also, self -awareness, yes, you can get through a psychometric, but the real self -awareness is gonna come through challenges.
And putting yourself in situations, like am I gonna sink or swim?
So I remember you saying this to me when I was talking about my own son.
It was like no, there's gotta be a certain degree of challenge, he needs to know that if he falls, you're there to catch him, but you're not there like holding him.
Because otherwise he's not gonna learn to stand.
it's knowing that I think all of us need to know that we're loved whether we win or we lose.
That's what all of us want.
All of us want to know that I am loved or all of us want to know that you are loved whether you win or you lose.
And so your child, yourself, your partner, what they want from you is that you love them no matter what, but they need to be able to win or to lose of their own choices, of their own accord.
And I remember one meeting that we had...
I remember when you actually flew out with me to New York when I first moved there.
And you slept on my couch and I remember...
Well, maybe I'll explain.
Maybe you can tell them what you had for breakfast, because...
I think it was a banana from Whole Foods.
So, Jay's cooking skills are awful.
My cooking skills are one, one tier below that.
So we were just having a conversation about...
I think we're on the same level.
Okay, yeah. I mean, I could pick out the banana.
But no, I was coming out to New York, and I was expecting the Huffington Post thing had just happened.
It was actually a beautiful apartment.
Like it was a one bed, it was nice.
Like 500 square feet.
Yeah. It was cozy I think is the right way to define it.
But yeah, I was there sleeping on your couch, and it's beautiful to think where you've come from that particular point.
but you were going to say there was something particularly about that meeting.
No, I was just going to say that it was one thing that you realize, as you live life is that life becomes the stories.
And I remember a few years before that, I was at a friend's wedding in Ibiza and I was sitting, having dinner on the beach at my friend's wedding and I was sitting with this man who is around 70 years old and he was sitting there almost like in a movie scene And he was in one of those beach rocking chairs.
There was a little fire pit that we were around.
It was me, my wife, some of our alongside and someone else from the wedding.
And we're sitting with this man and he just had these crazy life stories.
And I remember sitting there and just thinking, I really hope that when I'm his age that I'll have stories to tell and not stories to tell to the world even, just stories to tell to my friends.
And I think what happens in our busy, distracted life, the events in our life become events where everyone's there.
Whereas we talk about this a lot, that as I have got older, group events are great.
But it's the one on one investments over the years that give you stories and memories.
Who remembers the big birthday party that 100 people were at?
I don't ever think about those things.
I don't talk about those things.
But I can remember when you were sleeping on the couch and we were waking up and we were walking to the grocery store, picking up groceries, coming back.
I can remember that, or I can remember the walks we used to go on.
And I think it's so important that as we get older, I think sometimes we think, I want that big birthday party again.
I want that feeling of being a kid again.
And it's almost like, those one -to -one relationships are so powerful.
And I think one of the things I really value about our friendship is I think it's become harder for men to find these relationships in our community and outside.
It doesn't matter whether you're in a spiritual community or not, it's just harder for men to find connection.
And I think for us, one thing that really helped was you were always really vulnerable and honest and open about your life when we first got to know each other.
As you were my mentor, it was very new for me because mentors and teachers are generally people who you think have it all together, and you're learning because they have it all together.
Not only do I disagree with that, you helped burst that bubble very early on because you'd be really open about your challenges or whatever you were going through.
I try and do that with my community today.
I'm really open and honest about I always talk about how that me and my wife don't have a perfect marriage There's loads of stuff when we'll talk about it or you know I haven't had a career where everything's been easy, but I find that as men it's harder How have you found that over time and like how have you navigated that and what are your thoughts on male friendship?
And and how you strengthen that bond because I think a lot of men are feeling lonely right now in the world A message brought to you by Apple Card Choosing the right credit card can be daunting.
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I really just sat myself down at the end of 2022, and I was like, look, either we make it or we quit.
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Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it?
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Yeah. So, you know, the definition of kind of the modern man is like a hotly contested debate.
And just this idea of vulnerability, for me, I think I was naturally wired like that, like I like honesty and transparency.
And if you're sincerely asking, I don't see why I wouldn't be open actually I think I've learned the opposite I think I was probably too open in this world And so something that I've learned over time is you can't place a hundred percent Faith and trust in someone when you meet them for the first time, you know It's a process that you have to build over time.
That's a hard lesson as well It is a hard lesson because and it's a painful lesson But, we spoke about this in the past as well, would you want it the other way?
Would you want to be so closed, and then gradually, gradually open up?
I feel like yes, there's a risk to the way that I am.
People may judge me for being open about things, but actually, I think it's the way forward because it's what feels natural for me.
And, obviously, as I've got older, it's about understanding the right people, the right time, the right place.
And ultimately, am I being vulnerable to serve that person?
Because one thing I've learned with coaching is sometimes people are vulnerable really just to unload and it shouldn't be about that.
It should be very much about I'm trying to serve that person.
If I can be relatable and show them, I'm not on a pedal store.
I've gone through similar challenges, but this isn't about me.
It's about you. I think that can be really helpful and you don't need to be a coach for that.
I'm talking about basic, cause you talked about friendships.
I think that's where friendship comes from.
Yeah, and I think that's also how you don't become harsh in a world that may feel harsh.
Like, I would rather turn up fully as I am, consciously, and then, however someone responds to that, now I'm clear on where we're at.
Yes. Whereas if I come all cagey and holding back, now I don't know whether that person's mirroring my energy or they might be hiding something.
And so if I come out and I'm just fully myself and I'm loving and I'm trusting and I'm open and then I get a quicker sense of where someone's at and whether our energy matches, not whether they're a good or bad person just on whether our frequency matches.
Whereas if I lower my frequency, thinking I'm protecting myself, now actually I'm working against myself because I can't quickly figure out.
And I think that's what I look at is what's the pace of figuring it out.
Like when you can speed that up because you're fully yourself, now you have a great sense of, okay, I trust this person.
I can see where my barriers are with this individual.
school, and I think setting boundaries has become such a healthy thing for adult friendships as well.
I think we talked about this a lot.
When you grow up in a big community, everyone thinks they know you, and everyone claims to know you, and everyone claims to be your friend.
And it's really hard, and, you know, sometimes people can turn, oh, I went to college with that person, or I went to school with that person, to, oh, no, no.
I knew that person really intimately.
And so, I think it's really important that we set healthy boundaries.
I think what's helped me with my male friendships, and I have a lot of young male friends who guys that I mentored like you were mentoring me at the time and I think for me It's always been these one -on -ones I think it's really easy as a bunch of guys to hang out watch a game Whatever it may be But when you can have these one on ones where there's space for both of you To truly put the guard down and it's almost like taking your armor off Like I think it's men you've got to recognize that there is a desire to be strong and be this warrior Bad the end of the day.
You got to take your helmet off.
You got to put the shield down You got to put the sword down You've got to take the armor off.
And that's when you can see each other's wounds and be open about it and talk about it.
And I think I consider myself to be a warrior mindset, as you were talking about earlier, but a big part of that warrior mindset is also having that safe space where you don't have to have the shield and the guard up all day long, and you can finally put it down.
Has that, has that changed for you over time?
I think I dealt with that in the beginning of my career where I had to be so intense about growing and building.
And it's not about being mean, it's about having a winner's mindset.
think there's a difference between having a winner's mindset and being mean and harsh.
I was developing that winner's mindset and I realized that it took me a long while to realize how to be with my wife and still have a winner's mindset but recognize it should be projected on to her.
How do you reconcile that winner's mindset and that drive and that ambition with the spiritual principles that you live by?
Because people externally would feel like that's a real contradiction.
So, how do you do that?
I think there's a difference between being ambitious and aggressive.
Okay. I think you can be ambitious without being aggressive.
I think aggression is something that spills over on to other people.
It's how you treat other people, it's how you greet other people, it's how people feel when they're around you, they feel scared, there's fear.
Aggression is ambition in its lowest form.
Yeah. And then ambition is something about you.
It's now your expectation of yourself.
It's your desire for yourself.
It's what you expect and want of yourself.
Aggression is when you want everyone else to now mirror that.
And I actually remember go along with us who's My monk teaching of course, you know him very well as well He actually taught me this very early on because for anyone who knows him as you do, he has an impeccable schedule Yeah So he wakes up at 2 a .m.
Every day meditates for two hours before everyone wakes up to meditate and then we'll meditate say, then go and cook for all the monks then come back.
My point is, he's a superhero.
Superhuman. Yeah, superhuman.
And anyone who tries to imitate him fails.
I've been there, hands up, I've been there.
But the more important thing is he told me that really early on that he had to realize that his expectations had to be of himself.
And that a good leader doesn't create high expectations for others, but operates at the highest values and expectations for themselves.
And everyone rises to that, because they see the example.
So anyway, going back to what we were talking about with the spiritual point, for me, ambition and spirituality should never have been put as opposites.
And somewhere in our narrative, and this is probably one of my favorite things, the famous quote that goes around is, money is the root of all evil.
And everyone knows it, you hear it everywhere.
But the actual The whole text says the love of money is the root of all evil.
That's a really massive piece of context that is missed in one of the most famous quotes of money of all time.
But also that money is God's energy.
Correct. And therefore can be used in service just like everything else.
But I wanted to talk about how do you continue to live in that spirit of gratitude?
Like all of the achievements I've witnessed, really since, when did it all kick off?
2016, I guess. So like the last nine years, every single time there'd be something huge happen.
Like a huge guest comes onto the podcast.
I would always say to you, bro, like this is nuts.
Like this is nuts, remember we were in New York, like this is nuts.
And you would always come back and say, yeah bro, this is just the beginning.
Like that is your line.
This is just the beginning.
I really want to tap because I don't know when I'm ever going to get this opportunity again, but to tap into that mindset of this is just the beginning, what does that mean for you, and where do you get that consistent drive and determination?
On one level, you made it.
You have a great family, you've got great friends, including me, You've got everything that you need, but you continue to reinvent yourself.
So what is your driver?
Where does that come from?
I really believe that if you get too familiar with greatness, beauty, or success, that makes you feel unsuccessful.
And what I mean by that and this idea of just the beginning is I look at my life today as if I would if I was looking at it from 20 years ago.
So when we were sitting up there in the iHeart booth just upstairs right now and there's a picture of my podcast art next to like Malcolm Gladwell who I love and I grew up reading and he's been a guest on the show and then there's Breakfast Club with Charlamagne who I love and there's just all these amazing people.
I have to look at that from 18 year old Jay and 25 year old Jay, because when I look at it as that my mind is blown and I'm like no way, like I can't believe this is my life.
And when I sat down on the stage I was like I took a moment just personally it wasn't in front of it was internally on just like how grateful I was to be able to have this opportunity.
And my point is I have to look at it from the kid who watch Fresh Prince, I have to look at it from the kid who use this person's product.
I have to look at it from the kid who watched a tennis match and now gets to interview Novak Djokovic.
I've got to watch it as the kid who watched a movie and now gets to sit down with Michael B.
Jordan. Like, I have to watch it from that perspective, but if I only look at it from this perspective of, oh, here I am, this is my life now, this is normality, all of a sudden, it will start to feel really insignificant.
And I think that's what happens a lot where whether you get to wake up and look at a beautiful view every morning, looking at your partner that once you believed when you first met them was the most beautiful person on the planet.
If you don't look at that way again, no wonder you get distracted in whatever else is.
So, for me, it's always looking at it from it's just the beginning in the sense of, let me fast forward, let me rewind, and then the other it's just the beginning is going, I've gotta have the beginner's mindset, even in this moment, because otherwise this is all gonna go away.
I've gotta treat it.
I've gotta have the same hunger.
I'm going to have the same hunger as I had on day one.
Yeah, it was, yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right.
And I've seen, I've seen that if you get too comfortable in any given situation, very quickly that dies and you just have to keep doing, you have to keep doing different things.
What I wanted to ask about that was how do you go and apply that?
So I think for you, people listening may think, well, Jay, that's all right for you, because, you know, every month, you seem to have another epic moment.
And yeah, sure, you can reflect back on 18 year old Jay.
So, practically, what does that look like for someone?
You gave an insight into that, maybe it's your partner, or your kid's eyes, or the view of just walking past the tree you see every single day with gratitude.
But essentially, what we're saying is having real gratitude for what you have and zoning into that in a real way.
I think it's romanticizing your life, like you have to be really present in it to see how beautiful every moment is.
Not every moment is beautiful.
But I think when things were tough, I'd say something else.
I wouldn't be saying this.
Like I don't think when things are tough, I'm like, I'll be grateful for what you have.
I think that can be bad advice and can kind of be off -putting as well.
When things were bad, I'd be like, I can't wait to tell this story one day.
So when I was going through the failures and things were going wrong, I'd say, I can't wait to tell this story one day when I get to the other side.
Yes. And that gives you momentum to get to the other side, because you can't wait to tell that story.
And so I think it's a mix of mindsets and tools that you bring out in different moments.
So when things are going well, slow down and smell the roses.
There's a reason why smell the flowers.
There's a reason why that phrase is famous.
Because when things are going well, you can just move through them.
Like it doesn't matter.
But when things are going badly, if you say to yourself, I can't wait to tell this story on the other side.
All of a sudden, you get momentum from the other side, rather than being like, Oh God, this is the worst thing I've ever gone through.
But do you feel that you do celebrate your successes?
So we talk about football a lot and we talk about sport generally quite a lot and we talk about You know world champions who have won Premier League after Premier League and they say they lifted the cup and then immediately It was like I enjoyed it for like 10 seconds and then it was on to the next thing So, what does it mean to celebrate success?
How do you celebrate success?
I used to have an amazing football coach that would say if you win Celebrate for a night and then get back to training?
And if you lose, cry for a night and then get back to training.
And I love that advice because it put the emphasis on get back to training.
And so I've had some amazing successes in my life and I don't feel they've been fleeting, but they've just been a marker that you're on the path.
And the greatest success, the greatest joy or celebrating success, comes on the pursuit.
It's the journey. It is that journey like that old, you know, it's - Journey not the end, yes.
Yeah. And it's like, that is the part that you have to celebrate.
And that's what I mean.
Celebrating the moment and going, this makes my story better.
Celebrating the moment and saying, I'm gonna stop and appreciate this moment of sitting on stage.
Let me stop and appreciate the fact that this is happening for me.
And by the way, sure it's easier now, but all of those things were happening.
It wasn't like the first day I did it, it was this either.
Going back to the right the beginning, when I uploaded my first video and it got, you know, 500 views, in my first month on YouTube, I had 1 ,000 subscribers.
I was so happy about that.
I remember. I never looked at a thousand subscribers and went why isn't not million?
And so it was there then.
And I remember our friends were like well done mate.
This is probably it.
No, no, no. This is probably it.
No, that's where I mean you've done it as in you've hit the cap.
Yeah, so but yeah, anyway, we could do this for hours.
I've got to run to main stage now.
Nanda, I am so grateful to you for joining me on a last -minute request.
Thank you, Bro. It's been a really fun conversation.
We'll have to do this again.
Amazing. And I'm so glad you shared your journey, because I think there's so much for everyone to learn with whether our journeys are public or private, whether they're in the public eye or not.
We all have to make these decisions.
And I think you shared so many great valuable insights today.
So thank you so much.
Main stage waits, man.
Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it.
If you loved this episode, you'll love my conversation with Dr. Joe Dispenser on why stress and overthinking negatively impacts your brain and heart and how to change your habits that are on autopilot.
Listen to it right now.
How many times do we have to forget until we stop forgetting and start remembering?
That's the moment of change.
Don't care how many times you fell off the bicycle if you ride the bicycle now, you ride the bike.
