This is the Allers English Podcast, episode 2248.
Summer Olympics, 2024, part 3.
What about transgender athletes?
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[♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ In today's episode, we revisit our series on the Summer Olympics, and we dive into one of the most controversial topics that you are likely to encounter in a conversation about sports.
Today, here how someone might bring this up in a conversation and learn facts and phrases to carry on a lively but respectful discussion in English.
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MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hello, Aubrey.
How's it going today? I'm great.
How are you, Lindsay? Very good.
I do have a question for you today to start off today's episode.
We have a big topic today.
Yes, we do. Yes. All right.
So when is the last time that you had to agree to disagree?
I love this phrase. Agree to disagree.
This happened to me two days ago, a conversation with my sister, where we just had very differing opinions.
And we sort of tried to talk about it and she shared her side.
And I shared my side a little bit, but it was clear.
No one was going to change their mind.
And it might get heated if we kept talking about it.
So we just said, you know what?
Agree to disagree. And we pivoted to something else.
I love it. And I do think that we've taught that term before on the show because it's such a useful handy term.
That's our first term to write down today, guys.
Is agree to disagree? Because when you realize you're at an impasse with someone and you were not going, like you said, no one's going to change their mind.
But preserve the relationship, that might be the time to step back.
Yeah, and you can start feeling, if someone's getting a little more heated, a little more upset.
And you realize this isn't productive.
Maybe it's time to change the topic.
But sometimes you can deep dive, even if you have differing opinions.
And we're going to share an example of that today.
I'm excited about this.
But this is part three of a three part series.
We want to make sure that you guys don't miss part one and part two.
Yes. We are in the midst of the Summer Olympics.
So exciting. And it's a global event.
And so we are all going to be sitting down in front of the TV.
Maybe some of you are going to Paris.
And going to be in the stands, or maybe in the events who knows.
And you are going to be having conversations.
Today, we are going to bring up one of the more controversial topics that will come up at some point or other when you're having conversations in English.
All right. So exactly. So they're both here on all your English part one.
Just scroll up for these.
2242, part one was how to start the conversation.
And then part two was about some of the controversies.
So check those out. And we promised a deep dive on one of these conversations.
We did. These controversies.
And that's what we're giving you today.
Yes. And what is the controversy?
Which controversy did we choose for today's episode?
Aubrey. We're really going into one in doing a deep dive.
Yeah. So this is about how to accommodate transgender athletes in competitive sports, or whether they should be accommodated at all, is especially controversial.
Because often this is seen as the rights of some people conflicting with the rights of others.
So people do get passionate about these.
People will have very extremely opposing, extremely differing opinions.
And some people are passionate.
They might have experiences or stories or something that has happened that has created some kind of embarrassment or shame.
So there are emotions involved with this topic.
100%. And we're bringing this to you because we thought about all the topics in the last episode, part two.
And we thought, which are the ones that we actually that come up the most?
And this is one of them. Where I see this come up the most in my conversations is across generations.
So when I'm having a conversation with a family member from another generation, usually older, they will tend to bring this up.
And they're really just as much looking for information, looking to learn as maybe throwing out their soft opinions, but not quite being as informed.
And there's always more we can all learn, right, Aubrey?
Absolutely. To learn. Yeah.
And for me, it's not really generational.
There are quite a few people, my age or younger, who have strong opinions about this, who play sports or their children play sports.
And it's definitely, it's come up many times in conversation.
So I'm glad that we're sharing this today because you guys might find yourself this might come up.
And we want you to be prepared to be able to have a conversation about this or any situation where you have a differing opinion than the person you're talking to.
Yeah. And before we get into any of the different positions on this topic, we want to make the important, let you guys know that we believe in respecting all people, right?
So the human beings, the theme of our show is connection, human connection.
And if we didn't care about human beings, it wouldn't be that theme.
It'd be something else, like just grammar.
It would be so much simple, more simple, more simple, more small, but we think big here, and we want to respect human beings, OK?
Absolutely. That's a very important thing to know before we go deeper.
Yeah. So let's share a few vocabulary terms and phrases that you would need to have this discussion.
And then we're going to have a discussion showing how this could work.
We are not necessarily sharing our own opinions.
We're sharing both sides as if one of us felt one way and the other one disagreed more like a big role play, right?
Because the reality is that the context in which this conversation is going to happen, that you're eventually going to end up in or witnessing, there's going to be differences of opinion.
So we want to show you that difference.
We could sit here, I think, we probably line up in terms of our actual opinions on this, but we could sit here and just sort of preach to the choir, right?
But that wouldn't give you guys any value in terms of what you're actually going to see when you're out having conversations.
So that's not as helpful for you, right?
If you could be a fly on the wall and overhear my conversation, my sister, that would be more helpful, because there are a lot of phrases and strategies to have this conversation in a respectful way.
So that's what we want to show you.
And how amazing when you have words to be there, to be present in that conversation.
So first we got to break down some vocabulary, Aubrey.
And again, I also want to say that these terms are always evolving, right?
Things are evolving constantly.
We have tried our best to research this, to talk to people that we know that are well informed.
And we're giving you certain terms.
However, if we've made mistakes in terms of the proper terms, the correct terms we do apologize for that, we are just doing the best we can in this moment.
All right. Exactly. Yeah, good point.
These do evolve often. Yes.
So transgender is the adjective.
That means denoting a person whose gender identity does not correspond with the sex registered for them at birth.
Perfect. All right. So we've got that one, write that one down, guys.
The next one, identify.
This comes up a lot in these kinds of conversations, right?
And Aubrey, how would you define the word identify?
Yeah, this means to assign oneself or describe oneself as belonging to a particular category or group.
So we might say she identifies as a transgender girl.
And that means nothing about the sex she was born with.
It means that she now currently identifies as a girl.
Right. And we also see this in the GLBT, in the lesbian and gay community, right?
Identify as lesbian, identify as a gay man.
We see this in a lot of different identities, okay?
So it's not just specifically within this area.
And then so we said transgender girl means someone who identifies as a female and transgender boy Aubrey is someone who identifies as male.
And this has nothing to do with the sex they were born as, but what they currently identify as.
Love it. Okay. Next term that we need to know is this one comes up a lot too.
In these conversations is cisgender, right?
This means it's relating to a person who's gender identity corresponds with the sex that they were registered at birth.
So they are not sort of identifying differently, okay?
Exactly, right? So those come up often in the articles that we were looking through as we prepared for this conversation.
But we also want to share with you phrases that we will be using as we have this conversation.
Because you do need to respect the other person's opinion, even if it's very different from your own and then follow that up with questions or sharing your own opinion in order to have that respectful conversation.
Exactly. Because sometimes like Aubrey said, you're going to hit an impasse, right?
You're going to hit an impasse and you're going to realize that connection with this person is either not going to happen right now or it's going to happen over a different topic maybe.
And so you will change the topic.
But many times there is an opportunity to kind of not necessarily convince someone, right?
In a debate style, but sort of try to find some kind of common ground or find that connection.
And these are the phrases that could help you get closer to it.
Okay. Definitely. And this is a conversation we should be having.
Everyone should be open and thinking and discussing these things.
Otherwise, there be, there's more sort of fear and shame around the topic the more we avoid it and hide it.
So definitely have this conversation but be ready to have it in a respectful way.
Yes. So first phrase that our listeners, you guys are going to want to write these down, right?
So we could say, oh, that's interesting.
So if someone says something and maybe it feels to you a little bit, what would you say?
I'll be like incorrect or you don't agree with it.
Let's say. Right. Well, this is interesting because in this conversation, that's assumed.
Everything the other person says, you don't agree.
So these are all phrases you can say when you don't agree, you're not going to say, I agree.
You can say, oh, that's interesting.
I hadn't heard that or I hadn't considered that.
Then you could follow that up with, what do you think about blank?
Right? Fill that in with anything, something you've thought about, something that maybe they haven't considered yet.
Yeah. That's a good point.
When you don't agree, you need more vocabulary.
Right? Beyond just, I agree or I'm hearing you.
You need something else.
Exactly. Exactly. And then another one, the second one you can use is say, that's a good point because whether you agree or not, you can acknowledge that they're making good points for their argument, right?
You can allow yourself to see the other side even if you really disagree.
And then you could say something like, I think something to consider though is and share something that either opposes what they've said or a different example that maybe contradicts the information that they have.
Yeah, that's good. I like that idea.
Right? So something to consider, it sounds high level, it sounds articulate, it's not forcing this information on the person.
Consider this, right? I have, I think something to consider though is.
And the third one, I see where you're coming from.
I do think though that I'm making a lot of pauses here.
Right. I do think though that.
And then you're going to continue the sentence with, yeah, your opinion, something you've heard.
The tricky thing is there are more, there are freezes that might trigger someone.
Like, have you thought about because that's sort of implying that they haven't thought it through, that they haven't done their research and we want to avoid that.
So all of these phrases really show a lot of respect for the other person's opinion.
And a lot of care for their feelings and their research they may have done.
Yes, I love that. All right.
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OK, Aubrey. So to prepare for this episode today, we did a little bit of research.
Aubrey, what do we look at in terms of research out there?
Yeah, so two great articles.
I've read quite a bit, but I took most information from these.
One was called Understanding Transgender Athletes Rights in Sports competitions.
And this was in December 2022.
Chris Suprenant, who's a professor of ethics, strategy, and public policy at the University of New Orleans.
And then what was the second one, Lindsay?
OK, the second one I was scrolling down already.
So the second one was Transgirls belong on Girl Sports teams by Jack Turban, who is a child psychiatrist.
And that was from Scientific American, right?
Exactly, in March of 2021.
So the first article was a very even-handed sharing both sides.
The second one was more of an opinion piece.
But together, these gave me quite a full idea of the different arguments that are made by each side.
People who agree with one side or the other.
So Lindsay here will be sharing the sort of the opinions of those who are in support of transgender athletes, participating in the gender division with which they identify.
And I will be sharing arguments of those who are opposed to that.
So we're going to use some of those phrases to show respect as we share points from both sides of this argument.
Yes, I love that. So, Abri, what is a typical way that this topic might come up?
How would someone open this?
What could we do? I know I've shared this before, but my favorite way to bring up something a little controversial.
And it usually is inspired by either a news article I've read or a podcast I've listened to.
So that's how I usually bring it up.
Say, I was listening to a podcast the other day, and I heard something interesting.
And then I'll throw out whatever that is.
And we go from there. So I might say to Lindsay, I was listening, and you could even say this about the conversation we had about the Olympics that you guys heard.
I say, I heard a podcast the other day about transgender athletes participating in the Olympics, and they sounds like they changed some policies in January.
What do you think about that?
Yeah, and so I might say something like this.
I really believe that transgender athletes, they deserve to compete with the gender that they identify as.
And I believe this deeply, a lot of it is rooted in basic respect for human beings.
But yeah, I've always believed that, and I continue to believe it.
Yeah. I totally understand where you're coming from.
It's interesting to think about, though, because youth sports organizations exist and have existed forever, because we don't think kids should compete against adults, because the skill level is so different.
And in the same way, gender divisions have existed for a long time to try to give males and females equal footing so that the competitions are fair.
And sometimes separating athletes by biological sex is necessary because the gap between male and female athletes at all levels is so significant.
OK, so yeah, I've heard that argument.
That's a good point. And I think something to consider, though, is examples of things that have happened in the past.
The assumption from the other side, the other side of this opinion, is that a transgender girl, someone born a boy and identifying as a girl, would have a stronger edge going and competing against girls.
Am I correct in just explaining this?
I would agree with that.
Yes. Right, so I just don't think that that's necessarily true.
There was a scenario in February of 2020.
There were three cisgender girls who were competing against transgender girls.
And I believe that one of the cisgender girls actually beat one of the transgender girls, named it a lot of the last days that was happening over this whole idea at that time.
And that was in Connecticut.
So that's just one example I've heard of recently, where I don't know if that's necessarily true.
I think that might just be an assumption.
That is interesting. I hadn't heard that.
Thank you for sharing. I do remember hearing that Serena Williams had claimed that no man could beat her.
And then Carson Bratch defeated both Serena and Venus.
Six to one, Serena, six to Venus.
And I remember that they were shocked, that it was so difficult to play against him because they're just genetically, right?
Their physical capabilities are different because of their biological sex.
Yeah. I see where you're coming from.
I'm kind of surprised by that actually, because I just feel like Serena and Venus are just amazing.
And I feel like they should be.
I would also think that guy.
I think that guy. At number 200 and though, or maybe they're having a bad day, I do want to make a point though about that example is that he did not play each of them in a full match.
He played one set with Serena and one set with Venus.
And I am a tennis player and I can call that out.
That is not a match. That is a really good point.
And if it were a full match, it might have been a different result, right?
But there are other examples.
I was reading recently that at the 2019 a nationals attract competition for US high school students.
The student was named Joseph Fanbola in Minnesota, won the men's 100 meter with a time of 10.35 seconds.
And that same year, the Olympic gold medal winner was Shelley Anne Fraser Price.
She ran the fastest 100 meter time of any female in the world, but was still slower than this high school student at 10.71 seconds.
So for time, what have tied for 19th at this US boys high school event?
So it just sort of shows that it is very difficult for women to compete at the level that men are competing.
Yeah. But what do you think about the fact that it's just not a very material number, right?
We're not talking about a lot of people, especially for kids in school, let alone adults, just thinking about kids in school.
Number one, it's not a material number.
It's not like half the team is going to change sides, right?
We're talking about a small percentage of the population.
And on top of that, the fact that by not allowing students to compete with the gender they want to identify as, we might be further attacking them.
And they're already receiving a lot of, it's just hard, right?
Already life is hard. Yeah, I have to concede that point absolutely.
I've seen statistics about anxiety and depression and suicide rates among transgender teens.
And I know personally that sports can help with your mental health.
Yeah, so I cannot deny that.
I strongly believe that transgender athletes should be able to compete in sports.
It's just a question of how do we determine where?
Are there open competitions?
Should different categories be gendered or is there a better way?
Yeah, for sure. I mean, this is getting into more into pronouns.
But I did hear on a podcast recently that there has been some research that has come out that has said that if at least when students are going through this, especially if they're younger, middle school, high school, if at least one person in their world in their universe will listen to them.
Hopefully it's more. But if just one will use the pronouns they want to identify as, it can significantly reduce their likelihood of suicide and depression and all these things.
Just one adult that can say, yes, I see you.
That's absolutely believe that.
I felt that myself as a kid, right?
One adult who praised me for being good at something created such a confidence boost absolutely.
So I think you're right about that.
Yeah, matters. And so it matters what adults say to kids in terms of what they're allowed to do in the world and to reflect back who they really feel they are.
So we've just shown our listener as a pretty realistic perspective on how this conversation might work, might look.
What do we think here? I agree.
And I think it points out a few things that if you're going to have a conversation like this, you have to have done a little bit of research.
You have to have some information.
I learned a lot studying to be able to have this conversation.
I wasn't that informed about this topic before.
So I didn't really feel comfortable talking about it in depth with anyone.
I wouldn't have had examples to back up my opinions.
And it really does make a difference if you're able to.
Yeah, thank you for preparing this information for this episode today, Aubrey.
I 100% agree. So guys, the way to prepare for a conversation like this that will come up at some point, speaking in English, is get the facts stay up to date on the news, the facts, read research, then get the phrases.
Study the phrases that we've learned today.
And then just get clear on maybe complementing actually the facts with real stories of maybe you're not sharing the identities of your friends because we all have friends that are going through this, right?
Friends, family members, real stories will be huge.
It'll soften your approach.
Absolutely. And as a huge take away here, it's really going to depend on who you're talking to, how this conversation goes.
We've taught in previous episodes, politics or pivot.
Like should we pivot away?
Are people getting impassionate upset?
Are we having a respectful conversation?
So hopefully you guys are able to have these types of conversations where you can get deep even when you have very differing opinions.
But you'll definitely need to continuously show that respect with how you respond and then read the room.
If they start closing up and you can feel that they're upset, pivot, talk about something else.
I love it. So good. I think that's the takeaway for today, Aubrey.
I mean, it's connection, right?
It's human connection and it's knowing when to push for that connection and when to step back and maybe talk to someone else or find the connection around a different topic, right?
Absolutely. But this is one of the hot topics right now in the news that's going to come up.
It's important. It's profound.
It really matters. So pay attention to it.
Yeah. Awesome. Love this.
Thank you so much, Lindsay.
I love this conversation.
I love being able to take some time to research this very important issue.
Yeah. Good stuff, Aubrey.
All right. We'll talk to you next time.
Take care. I'm seeing you next time.
All right. Bye. Bye. All right.
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