This is an All Ears English podcast, episode 2025 how global business is finally understanding neurodiversity, with author Ed Thompson.
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What is neurodiversity and how are global companies thinking about it to build more productive teams and happier employees?
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Hello, Ed.
Good afternoon.
Welcome to the show.
How are you today?
Doing well.
Thank you for having me.
Excellent.
I'm excited to have you today on the show, Ed.
So I'm going to take a minute to introduce you to our listeners.
Guys, on the show today, we have Ed Thompson.
And Ed is the founder and CEO of Uptimize, the leading neuroinclusion training company, whose mission is to help organizations embrace and leverage every type of thinker.
Ed was born and raised in London and educated at the University of Oxford.
He and his company have been featured by outlets including LinkedIn, the BBC People Management Magazine and HRcom and the Financial Times.
And my favorite fact is that we share a common state.
You live in Arvada, Ed, really close to me here in Denver.
I love that.
We do.
My accent doesn't match the state, but I'm a proud Colorado resident.
Yes, I love it.
Fantastic.
So I'm really glad to have you here on the show.
This is a new topic, or to me, it's new.
It's cropping up.
I'm reading about it here and there.
So let's just start with a clear definition.
Ed, what is neurodiversity in your words?
Yes.
And it's really important to start there.
Neurodiversity is a fact of humanity, in the same way that biodiversity is a fact of the natural world.
It means that people have different brains.
People's brains are wired differently.
You can't go to a museum and see the normal brain.
It doesn't exist.
Everyone's brain is different.
That's what neurodiversity means.
That means that at work, we're all processing sensory inputs, whether sound, noise and so on, differently.
Our experience is different um, and we have different work preferences as a result, some people within that human spectrum identify as being neurodivergent, such as autistic people, dyslexic people, adhds and so on, having a a common set of traits that are, in in a whole, you know, different from those of the overall majority, And those people can have particularly strong strengths at work, but also strong preferences too.
When we ignore neurodiversity, as we as humans have done for tens of thousands of years, we can serve to unintentionally marginalize and disadvantage people who think in different ways.
Oh, i love it.
It's a breath of fresh air to me that we're finally starting to put a name to this concept and you know, i'm seeing this on linkedin.
I see people do put on their profiles sometimes neurodivergent.
I just saw that today in linkedin and it's just so refreshing and it's kind of a relief that we're finally recognizing we do think in different ways and there's massive value there for organizations if we can recognize it.
So when did this just a little timeline when did this start to become like?
When did society, at least in the US, start to pay attention to this?
Yeah, it's a great question because of course now neurodiversity in the workplace is seen as a sort of another diversity and inclusion bucket, if you like.
And yet diversity and inclusion began in the 1960s with the Civil Rights Act and so on.
The first employee resource group was in 1964, African-Americans at Xerox.
It wasn't until 30 or so years after that that the very term neurodiversity was coined.
You know, even in society.
And at the time it was really, you know, internet message boards the kind of nascent internet and neurodivergent people connecting on those uh message boards and discussing the extent to which, you know, society had misunderstood and marginalized them and coming up with this idea of neurodiversity being a better conceptualization of some of these brain differences than the purely medical framing of such differences, which of course, has had many benefits in terms of support and so on, but has also framed these differences purely in the negative.
And we look at some of the great business people of our time Richard Branson, Barbara Corcoran, Elon Musk and so on.
We can't possibly see these differences as simply hindrances.
And of course, neither do they.
So that's where that movement has come.
And I think you've got that societal slow sort of societal development of consciousness.
I think social media has amplified voices of people saying, look, I'm neurodivergent.
And this is yes, it's a challenge, but it's significantly a challenge because you all don't know how to include and understand me.
And in the business world you had what were really initially in the early 2000s and what they call disability hiring programs.
So, you know, how do we go and hire people we value, but we don't think we do a good job of hiring.
They included, uh, some neurodivergent professionals.
I think people started recognizing that particular skills of, of that group.
And then, to answer your question, it was really in the sort of mid 2010s, with tech, of course, booming and all these tech companies looking for the same talent that they thought well, How do we hire you know?
Why don't we try and hire say autistic, you know tech folks for those roles?
And then it's really just sort of ballooned from there.
Okay.
So really in the mid 2010s, that makes total sense with the tech boom.
And we see these neurodiversities emerging along with founders, right in the minds of founders.
Um, and we see there's something special there.
I love it.
And it's no longer the ADHD or the autism as being like a negative word.
There's a new word for it.
And that is powerful.
Have you seen Ed, um, well, first of all, like what countries are adopting what business cultures?
I guess the U.S. is probably adopting this quickly.
Have you seen around the world other cultures adopting this concept of neurodiversity and kind of reframing this and using it as an advantage in this way?
Yeah, the US is an interesting one, because the US is, in a sense, good and bad, as it always is on every topic.
It's the place where I think some of the first programs were born and that's to the U.S.'
's credit that there are, I think, people here, businesses that are prepared to take a risk, take a need, try something new.
But I think the US is actually being slower to adopt this than other places.
I think there's a reticence to talk about mental health here.
There's a sort of concern around the medical model and language and so on.
And I think you've got a big spectrum in terms of how much inclusion really matters to firms in this country.
I think Europe has probably been a a bigger driver, not necessarily the originator, but countries like my country, the UK, like the Netherlands.
I think, you know, those are places that are much smaller than the US.
Right.
I think once you get a kind of national dialogue look in my country a lot of the businesses are in the same city.
You know I went to talk to a lot of recruiters about this and they will.
You know, they will know each other because they will work around the corner.
So you can get that traction quite quickly.
What's interesting beyond that is that my recent book, A Hidden Force, starts with a story of a French company Ubisoft, who your listeners may know as the games company behind the Assassin's Creed and Prince of Persia franchises.
So there are other countries in Europe as well.
And I know India has an embryonic movement here.
We've done some work as well with some big tech companies in Asia.
And that's interesting because you get some quite interesting cultural clashes, if you like, between the cultural expectations in the country, countries where in some cases there isn't equality legislation and there isn't this norm that we now started to have in the US UK, where people, as you say on LinkedIn, say look, I'm your advisor, but you have the corporate goals, the corporate language, the corporate uh, ethics and ethos that are kind of, you know, interplaying with that, and that can be quite interesting.
That is fascinating, right.
So you have the corporations willing to adopt that, excited about it, especially in tech, i'm sure and then the government really lagging behind, Whereas in the US you've had these programs, at least in diversity, for a long time, but there's still a real stigma.
It makes me think I was in the gym the other day.
I do a lot of orange theory and this month they're doing a challenge around kind of mental health and physical health together.
And I remember the teacher saying I don't like to call it mental health, I like to call it brain health.
I'm like, oh my gosh, there's a real stigma around saying mental hell, and what is wrong with saying this is mental health month.
We're taking care of our, our minds.
So that's just kind of to your point, let's get into.
So I wish we had a little bit more time to talk about the adoption right around the world.
But I think some of our listeners, because they're global professionals, they they may want actionable takeaways on this.
I'm really curious what your advice could be for executives or managers working in an international company.
How could they leverage this?
How could they build teams considering neurodiversity?
What does it look like?
Do you have a few tips for us today, Ed?
I do.
I do.
And I think there's a lot that people can do to help bring the topic to their organization.
So I would say you know, if you learn about this topic and you believe it's important to the organization, you don't be afraid to Yeah.
To start conversations, talk to HR, you know, is there a?
Is there a disability group that you could connect with?
Perhaps there's a neurodiversity element to that.
We've worked with companies around the world.
We've never worked with a company that wasn't doing it for the first time.
Oh, interesting.
Fascinating.
Yeah.
And every time it's been people in the business who have said that is just so important to us obviously, that we can't ultimately ignore it, and somebody has got the Got the wheels turning.
So that's sort of not my answer, but I wanted to say that first.
Let's think about you know a manager say, a leader, one of your listeners in a team.
You know what are the things you can just do sort of day to day.
The first is I'm going to say, talk about it.
And actually this is a bit of a misnomer, because what you can do is you can surface your own preferences, the preferences of your own brain wiring and thinking style, within the context of your team and your direct reports.
You don't need to, so don't worry.
You don't need to be an expert in terms of different medical diagnostic labels.
You can do this regardless of your own, what we call neuro identity.
What you know as a manager is you know your team don't necessarily like to communicate in the same way because they have different brains.
They don't necessarily like to problem solve in the same way.
Right.
If you're treating them as if they do, that's probably not the best management.
So just by saying, look, here's how I like to give instruction.
Is that how you like to receive them?
Here's how I like to problem solve.
I like getting on a call, or I like us all getting in front of the whiteboard, but look, that's how my brain works.
I recognize that might not be how yours works.
We can start having these conversations.
We don't need to be again diagnosing each other or waving medical reports to occupational health to be able to embed that in our team.
Just that sensitivity.
So that would be the first.
Very powerful.
So the manager or the leader, the owner of the organization, CEO sets the tone.
And when he or she decides to say this is how my brain works, this is how I think, this is how I am neurodivergent, that sets an incredible trend in your company, opens things up.
So for our listeners today, guys, don't shy away from going ahead and self-disclosing in this way.
But one follow-up question there, Ed.
So the term neurodiversity is it reserved for things like ADHD and autism, or is it okay to use that term?
If maybe you just think kind of differently, you know that you process differently.
You don't necessarily have one of those situations going on.
That's my question.
Yeah.
Yes.
Good question.
Neurodiversity again, technically means we all have different brains.
So technically we all think differently, but there is a sort of shorthand of neurodiversity and thinking differently being the 20 or so of people who consider themselves neurodivergent through a medical diagnosis and the associated kind of identity of being part of that particular demographic.
So I think you wouldn't in this world, you wouldn't necessarily consider it as disclosing unless you had a particular neuro identity that wasn't what we call neurotypical.
But what you could do is you could say look, regardless of my own neuro identity, wouldn't even need to flag it, whether you consider yourself a neurotypical or you consider yourself neurodivergent.
I'm quite a good example.
In fact, I had a major brain injury.
Some of our subject matter experts would consider me neurodivergent.
Some wouldn't.
Now, if I'm working in a team, I think, well, it doesn't matter about that.
In my case, some people, that's a very strong identity.
In my case, it's not.
What I want you to know about is look, here's how I like to work, organize my work communicate, problem solve, and so on.
But I recognize that's not necessarily how you do.
And I don't need you to if you want to disclose to me and say look, I'm so glad we're having this conversation.
And actually I'm autistic and I have really strong preferences on how stuff is formatted or great.
And we've started that conversation, but I'm not doing it to to draw that out of you.
I'm doing it so that you have a safe space to communicate some of those preferences.
I love it.
That makes total sense.
That makes total sense.
So opening up this topic as a leader, setting a standard.
Whether you are technically neurodivergent, it doesn't matter.
It's about how you like to process information and you're sharing that.
Okay, excellent.
So what would be your second tip about how managers and executives can set the tone in an organization?
What can they do?
Yep.
So the second one is really It sounds trite, but I think it's really important and it's living the values.
A lot of the time we find with neurodivergent people in our focus groups professionals that they say that the story, the message that they were told in onboarding is not the reality on the ground.
I think if you look at organizations, often the values are great, right?
They're really strong values, but I think there's another question of the extent to which those are.
Right. those are being lived.
So look, you don't have to be a police officer in terms of culture, but I think, calling out where you have instances of a lack of psychological safety and so on, people interrupting or whatever demeaning behavior, snap judgments and so on.
I think just trying to lead on that front.
And that could be modeling even well-being, and modeling taking breaks, You know, modeling taking vacation.
I think that's just really important as a leader.
That might be sort of a more boring answer than people were looking for.
But I think, you know, in your organization, you probably have some values.
Are you really living to those values?
Because I suspect you will drive greater neuro inclusion, as we call it, by doing so.
And it's important because people may not think about, you mentioned interrupting, right?
If I'm working on a team with someone who's neurodivergent, or assuming everyone is in their own way.
You know, some people really respond negatively to that interrupting right.
Being interrupted.
And we may not realize that.
And so being able to make sure those values are not just in that binder thrown in that desk, right.
That we read through on day one and don't review ever making sure it comes out into real life.
So key.
So good.
What would be your third?
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Just to build off that one.
I mean, I think, look, comfort at work is a big one.
And we have this, I think, very strange dynamic that you know, everyone used to work in offices and apparently nobody cared if anyone was comfortable.
And then as soon as we have the pandemic and everybody goes home, it's like, oh gosh, are you okay?
Right.
But I think that comfort at work, you know wanting people to be themselves and feel comfortable and so on.
Like, what are you doing about it?
And I think that's sort of my bugbear with a lot of business in general.
You know we talk about innovation and you know we throw in R and D.
Dollar is actually making, you know, making a difference.
So some of the organizations we've, you know, spoken to that, hire a lot of neurodivergent people.
They really obsess about comfort at work, you know, constant check-ins.
Do you feel, do you have what you need?
You know, do you feel comfortable?
If that's what you want from your team, don't just sort of hope it's there, you know.
Engage and actually show people that you care.
I love it.
So good.
So good.
So, being true to what you've said, your company stands for and how things go in your company, making sure they really happen.
What would be the third thing that our listeners need to keep in mind if they are in that management or leadership position?
Yes, you mentioned hiring.
And I think that's always an important piece of leadership.
And I like to think of leadership, not just, you know, setting the vision and the tone and so on, but actually team building.
And I think it's an interesting thing for us.
We've seen managers say, we don't know much about neurodiversity.
I'm sure what it's got to do with me.
But then you say, do you value diversity of thought in your team and different perspectives?
They say, yes, that's exactly what I know I need.
And I don't know how to get more of it.
So you look at how neurodivergent people can be excluded in hiring processes.
And we have multiple friction points all the way through from organisations are simply not saying that they value different perspectives and so on.
But a lot of this could fall on the hiring manager.
So, as a hiring manager, what I would say is and my sort of you know bullet point here is kind of hire consciously, really think about the skills and attributes that you need for the role.
Again, that might seem patronising, but I think a lot of the time in busy organisations, you know, we lose Steve and we think well, let's just get another Steve.
Let's ask Steve as a mate that can come.
And actually, if we want to build a team of people who think differently, I'm just not sure that that's the way to do it.
So you know there's a lot of stuff these days around intentional hiring, intentional recruitment, you know, not just relying on kind of rapport and whether we get on, but actually really thinking about.
You know, what do we actually need somebody to be good at here?
And then how are we going to assess them?
And I want to flag interviews specifically because sometimes people will think oh, we can't possibly use interviews for neurodivergent people because you know they're not sociable.
That's, you know, a generalization.
Some neurodivergent people enjoy interviews, some don't.
But it's a good case study because interviews obviously to some extent are a test of thinking on your feet, social competence and so on.
So to what extent is that something we're testing?
If that's a role where that's really important, let's test it using interviews.
But if that's a role where that's less important, let's not overweight the interview part.
Let's find ways to actually test somebody's previous work or give them some work trials and so on.
Because otherwise we're going to get the 10 best people at interviewing, not necessarily the 10 best people.
100%.
I love that.
That's such a good point.
So creating maybe different workflows around the entire interviewing process that doesn't include the same steps and make sense for the role and maybe for people who are applying for that job.
I love that.
That's so good.
I feel like we need to have you on another time to help us, from the perspective of people applying for jobs, how you know going about framing things and how to present yourself in a way that allows the organization to see the benefits and the value there.
But we don't have time for it today, Ed.
Sorry about that.
All right, so let's finish up today.
Can you let us know about your new book that is out and where our listeners could find that book?
Tell us about it.
Absolutely.
So my book is called A Hidden Force, Unlocking the Potential of Neurodiversity at Work.
It really reflects my own journey in this space.
Look, you know, eight, 10 years ago, I'd never heard the term either.
And now I believe it's the most important, if you like, innovation topic in business today.
I had multiple aha and wow moments along that journey I wanted to share.
I met a ton of fascinating people, from corporate program builders to neurodivergent entrepreneurs and so on, whose stories I wanted to share.
Beginning of the pandemic, I thought, well, perhaps I have the time now. to do that.
And of course you think it's going to take six months, but it takes three years.
And so, you know, three years later, uh, here it is.
Well, congratulations.
And tell us the name of the book again, so that we can, where can we get it?
Where?
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
The book is called a hidden force, unlocking the potential of neurodiversity at works available on Amazon and other online retailers.
And if you want to learn a little bit more about it, a hidden force.com.
Excellent.
Excellent.
So I would encourage our listeners to go over and check out that book.
So inspiring.
And it's based on, you know, starts with your story, right?
Those are always the most powerful kind of discoveries when it starts with the story of the author.
I love it.
So good.
Well, thank you, Ed, for coming on the show today.
We really appreciate it and hope to have you on again another time to take this concept from another angle.
Pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
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