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Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me.
Try to help you.
And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.
Our number is 1-800-433-1298.
Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
And you can also send us a voice memo at hibt, at idwonderycom, and make sure to tell us how to reach you.
And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.
It's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs.
You can sign up for free at gairaz.com or on Substack.
And we'll put all of this info in the podcast description.
All right, let's get to it.
Joining me this week is Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club.
Michael, it's great to have you back on the show.
Thanks for having me.
Your first on How I Built This back in 2018.
It was a live show.
It was so fun at the Ace Theater in L.A.
And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we'll put a link to it in the show notes.
In that episode, Mike and I talked about how he suddenly came into acquiring a huge amount of razors in a California warehouse.
And then he turned eight years of marketing experience and background in improv into the Dollar Shave Club, which blew up.
And some of you will remember this incredible and hilarious video that Michael produced to promote the brand.
In 2016, just five years after its founding Dollar, Shave Club was acquired by Unilever, reportedly for a billion dollars.
You stayed on at Unilever, for I think you were basically with Dollar Shave Club for 10 years, half the time under Unilever, half the time Unilever independent.
You, of course, eventually left and you become an investor.
I know you were an advisor to other companies, including Liquid Death, which we've also featured on the show.
So much has happened since we last had you on the show.
Give us an update on what's been going on in your life.
There's been a lot going on.
So I don't know how much time we have, but I'll spare you the therapy session.
I would say the most exciting stuff that I have been up to is I wrote a screenplay.
That was a super fun endeavor.
I'd always wanted to do it.
And ultimately...
I finished it kind of late last year and got a bunch of great feedback from some people that I really trust.
And if the script gods bless it and think it's good, I'd love to produce it.
That would be a super fun thing that I've always wanted to do.
That draws on my personal experience, my professional experience.
So that's been a fun kind of tapping of my creative side.
I love that.
Yeah, well, it's hard, and it's hard to be original.
Of course.
So I've been doing that, and in addition to the screenplay, I'm continuing to do my board work and advisory work and I'm starting to noodle a few new company ideas.
At this point I am ready to jump back into something, but it has to be the right thing and I'm excited to start building again.
You know, in your episode, of course, we talked about that incredible video that you made that went viral, right?
It got people to notice Dollar Shave Club.
This was a different time.
I mean, the internet is a different place than it was in 2012 when that came out, right?
And I wonder what your thinking is now on how to kind of cut through the noise.
Like, is that still a reasonable goal?
I mean, Liquid Death, which I know you've advised, they did that.
But again, it was a few years ago.
Do you think it's something that is still possible to sort of cut through with the right kind of creative video?
It was a very different time.
I mean, I don't even think people were using the word influencer.
Just think about how the influencer economy and ecosystem has exploded.
And so it was, by today's standards, a primitive marketing ecosystem.
There just wasn't a lot.
The webbing wasn't as exponential as it is today.
There's just so many nodes pulsing out content to billions of people around the world.
And so...
So yes, you can cut through the noise.
If it's something truly original, if it feels authentic and if it strikes a chord in some way, whether that's an emotional chord or a humorous chord yeah, of course you can cut through the noise.
I think the biggest difference might be the wave doesn't last as long as it once did, because there's just so much out there.
And if we launched the Dollar Shave Club video in today's ecosystem, I mean, forget about the fact that the tone is from a different time.
But in a hypothetical world, if you were to launch it today, I don't think you get the same length of viral wave, which was critical to our success.
I think it would break through the noise hopefully.
I'd like to think that I could be wrong, but there's no way it lasts as long.
You have to work so much harder now, but if you do it well yeah, you can break through.
But then you have to sustain it with other things.
One of the, I think, just amazing things about Dollar Shave Club is that it was a market, and still is, to a large extent dominated by one company, by Gillette and, to a smaller extent, Schick.
But when people come to you, or if they are trying to build something in an industry that seems saturated or dominated by a big player, what advice do you give them?
What advice do I give those companies?
I guess another way of asking the question is, is it possible?
I mean, do you think it's still possible?
Is it wise?
Is it crazy to try to do that?
So is it crazy?
Probably.
Does that mean you shouldn't try?
Definitely not.
The last great consumer giant disruptor company has not been launched.
They will continue to launch all the time.
And so what is the signature element of their success?
It's probably a pretty boring formula.
It's a combination of great product and great distribution and great communication.
And if you kind of reverse engineer Dollar Shave Club's – the success of that video –
I would say that we had a great product.
We had unique distribution at that time.
It was right at the beginning of D2C is going to eat the world.
And that's not what happened ultimately.
But everybody believed that at the time.
And then the uniqueness of the voice with which we spoke was real.
And it was captivating.
It's an amazing story.
Anybody who's looking to figure out how to build a brand, you got to take a listen to this episode.
As I say, we'll put it in the podcast description. notes and description.
So check it out.
Michael, let's go ahead and take our first caller.
You ready?
Yep.
Let's do it.
Okay.
Welcome to How I Built This Advice Line.
You were on with Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business.
Hi, my name is Benita Casbo.
I'm calling from Chatham, New Jersey.
I'm the founder and owner of Casbo's Middle Eastern Kitchen, which is a heritage food brand that honors the Middle Eastern region with authentic flavors and unique ingredients.
My first product, Syrian cheese, is a traditional cheese that's eaten throughout the Middle East, is set to launch in 2026 across all New York City stores of a major grocery chain.
Wow.
Awesome.
Benita, I know you because you're a huge fan of How I Built This.
You are always commenting on our posts and saying nice things.
And you've been a fan, I feel like, since the beginning.
Long time.
For 10 years.
Long time.
Yes.
Long time fan.
First time caller.
It's great to meet you in person.
Thank you.
So excited for this.
All right.
So tell us.
So you've got this cheese that you're launching.
And explain what Syrian cheese is.
Is it like halloumi?
Is it stretchy?
Is it melty?
Sure.
So Syrian cheese is a cow's-based milk cheese.
So I'm purchasing curd from a curd producer.
It gets rolled in salt and then it gets cooked with a unique Middle Eastern spice that is native to the Middle East, called mahleb.
And Mahleb is derived from seeds of cherry pits that only grow in the Middle East.
And the Mahleb creates this unique flavor.
So overall, what you'll experience with the Syrian cheese is a saltiness, and then the center is slightly sweet.
And it's a traditional cheese that's eaten everywhere.
You can slice it and it melts incredibly well.
Like I've gotten a two foot cheese pull before.
Cheese pull?
Yes.
Sorry, cheese pull?
What is a cheese pull?
Pull it.
Oh, pull it.
Yes.
You melt it and you pull it two feet long.
I've pulled it two feet long.
So when it's not melted and you slice it, does it have the texture of like a sort of a part skim mozzarella?
I would say it's not as soft as mozzarella.
It's in between feta and halloumi and it's in that flavor family.
But you can't like put it on the grill.
Like halloumi, you can cut it and put it directly on a fire.
You can't do that with Syrian cheese.
And then it has incredible melting property without getting oily.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
Benita, when did you start your business?
Tell me a little, give me the backstory.
Sure, I'll give you the backstory.
So I had the idea for the business in 2017.
I actually got involved with the Syrian refugees that were settling in New Jersey.
And I speak fluent Arabic.
And so I worked as a translator and coordinator for dinners to help them settle in New Jersey.
And at the time, I met a cheesemaker who tried my product, and she said, this is delicious.
Could I buy the recipe from you?
And I didn't sell it to her.
And she said, well, I encourage you to pursue this.
And then just before the pandemic, I met someone who works in the cheese industry.
And he said to me when you're ready, I will help you with this and help you make connections within the industry.
So since the pandemic, I was home.
I wasn't able to go to work.
I went full force in trying to get it launched.
And I found a commercial kitchen.
And I started networking with the people that I had met.
And I got it into a few stores.
And since then, now I'm full time on the business.
I'm no longer working.
What was your old job?
So I worked in the pharmaceutical industry in sales and marketing.
Yes.
New Jersey pharmaceuticals.
Pharmaceuticals are big in New Jersey.
So when I started doing selling cheese, I was working Monday through Wednesday sampling legal drugs.
And then I was sampling cheese Thursday through Sunday.
I love that.
Wait, you were sampling drugs?
Like you were just taking them?
Well, I was one of their salespeople, so I had products that I could sample.
I just made sure.
All right, before I bring Michael in, what is your question for us?
Sure.
So my question for Michael is, as I prepare to launch, I'm looking for like an impactful grassroots guerrilla style marketing strategy that creates excitement and draws attention to this new category of cheese within the specialty case.
And then, at the same time, I'd love to create a digital marketing campaign rollout that's separate from social media.
That'll drive customer awareness and conversion.
Got it.
All right.
Michael Dubin, she's introducing essentially a new product, but it's been done with halloumi.
It's been done with feta.
Before that, mozzarella cheese, which was a foreign cheese in the United States, probably in the 70s, but Americans didn't even know what that was.
So, Michael, thoughts?
Hi, nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you too.
So exciting.
I love cheese, number one.
I'm also getting hungrier the longer this episode goes on.
So that's unfortunate for me, but I'll deal with it.
So thanks for your compassion.
I have a couple of questions.
What do I put it on?
Do I eat it plain?
Do I put it on pizza?
Do I put it on a sandwich?
Am I coming up with a whole new diet diet here, or does this fit in easily with what I'm already making?
No, this will easily fit into what you're currently doing.
And I have created recipe cards and I'm going to have a dynamic QR code that goes on the packaging.
When the customer scans it, they'll be able to get a video of me talking to them.
So it's actually very simple pairing ideas that transforms how the cheese tastes, depending on what you put it with.
So tomato cucumber sandwich on an amazing toasted bagel.
You can melt it in pita bread with mint and Aleppo pepper and olive oil.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
So I think I'll just riff for a second.
So, number one I love stuff that nobody's ever heard of before in the United States, or that most people haven't, because there's a big opportunity and I know you're going to kill it.
I think one challenge that you're working with is, you know, consumer doesn't know it.
So therefore they don't know how to use it.
I'd lower the bar for them, make it really easy for them to put it on something that they're already doing.
Like you know, pizza sandwiches.
Eat this plane, pair it with your wine, but make it easy for people to say, like you don't have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.
You don't have to do anything totally new.
This is going to slide in really nicely with what you're already doing.
And it sort of sounds like a unique form factor, right?
Like you've got, you said you between halloumi and feta.
So halloumi is kind of, I love halloumi.
It's, it's like a little rubbery and chewy and really great.
It Feta is really crumbly and you can do whatever with that.
But your cheese, you say somewhere in the middle.
I think you're just going to have to articulate for folks like how do I do this?
Where do I put it?
And if the form factor is not a slice or a crumble or a patty like halloumi, you just want to help coach people.
So I think that could be some fun stuff to include at the QR code destination or or even if you're doing sampling at stores, is a little bit of information around like here's how to use.
Like, are you new to Syrian cheese?
Here's how you do it.
And I think you can have fun with the idea of Syrian cheese.
Like, maybe there's a campaign which is, like...
Everybody knows the best cheese comes from Syria.
Everybody knows that.
Maybe you hire.
I don't know what country is best known for its cheese, maybe France Amsterdam, right?
And so maybe you have angry French ambassadors because they're so mad that Syrian cheese.
The secret's finally out on Syrian cheese.
Everybody knows about Syrian cheese.
You know, like i cannot believe that syrian cheese.
You know you could have so much fun with like this idea that everybody knows about syrian cheese right, doesn't everybody know about syrian cheese, right?
Yeah, that's right.
So like, i think you can have fun with that.
I think you can have fun, like in the sampling.
I think you can have a lot of fun with like characters.
I read an article recently about like where have all the great mascots gone?
And i think you know mascots work.
Yeah like, Have fun with that.
Like like, maybe it's angry Spanish.
You know cheese connoisseurs who are mad that the secret's now out.
You know, and it's like they go around, you know, dissing Syrian cheese.
And it's obviously a joke, but it's like they're dissing it because it's so good, you know or, or like maybe, maybe there's like.
Maybe there's like a Syrian cheese costume you can build and it's like you're just doing the sampling in the Syrian cheese costume.
But like think of mascots.
Think of like think of big like visual arresting ideas as you as you bring this to life.
But.
Yeah, I don't know.
There's a couple ideas at the top of mind.
I love that having a French chef in like a social media video, like just you know, talking about how the secret is out.
That's a great idea.
That's a great idea.
I love it.
It's so funny.
One thing that I— What are we going to do now?
Benita, you are going to have to, in addition to finding the French actor—
You're going to have to – I'm available, by the way.
I'm not working full time.
He's available.
I hope you're free.
He's retired.
He's looking for work.
He's looking for work.
I'm cheap, too.
You are going to have to sample the hell out of this.
You're going to have to go – you're going to have to spend the next year every weekend, weeknights sampling and – people are going to have to eat it and try it, and you're going to maybe use a little bit of honey on a cracker.
I don't know how.
You just different ways of doing it.
But that is going to be the key here, because it's you know you're starting in new york city and it's an advantage, because new york city is a place where trends start and there's a, you know, an audience of people who are adventurous.
And you know, as you're sampling it, you know the message should be like Meet the Middle Eastern cheese.
You've never tried, but are about to fall in love with or about to become your favorite cheese, something like that.
And then the other thing is I would really lean into as best you can to some of the local press in New York.
I mean, Eater and some of the food magazines are all based there, Food 52 and –
See if you can, if you can just pitch them and get them to.
They're always looking for new category stories.
To your point, Guy, I was featured in The New York Times.
Florence Fabricant wrote about it.
And so I think I need to bring that back up to surface.
And and I didn't get to tell you this, but I'm the cheesemaker for a high end Middle Eastern restaurant in New York City.
So I do food service as well.
And they recently got a full page write up by a food critic.
And she did make a note in the article.
She said her favorite was the Syrian cheese appetizer.
And I helped create that with the head chef.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Okay.
Let me chime in.
First of all, I couldn't agree more with Guy that sampling is going to be key to your strategy.
And the other thing that I think is super important for you to get right is your packaging.
I'm not a designer.
I couldn't give you advice there, but I know it when I see it.
So, when you have your packaging, if you want to shoot me a note on LinkedIn, I'm happy to look at it and tell you what I think.
But I think those are two things that you have to get right is your packaging and your sampling strategy.
Absolutely.
And finding a French guy, you know.
Well, it's funny within the cheese community, people have started to make jokes about it.
Like it's better than Feta.
Like people have made jokes like that.
But Michael, to your point, we are starting our packaging design right now.
I'm working with an agency, so I'm happy to share it with you.
We started with the logo right now, and then we're moving towards the packaging in a couple of weeks.
Everyone knows about Syrian cheese.
Everyone knows.
Everyone knows.
Everyone knows the best cheese comes from Syria.
There you go.
Benita Casbo, founder of Casbo's Market.
Thanks for calling in.
It's great to have you on.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for cheering us on too over the years.
Appreciate you.
Bye.
Good luck.
Imagine in your head, what does a French cheesemaker look like?
Because I'm thinking he's wearing a beret, right?
Yeah.
And a red scarf maybe like around his neck?
Go on.
You've got it.
Mustache?
Yep.
For sure.
Mustache.
I think you got it.
And he's shouting.
He is shouting.
He's angry.
He's angry.
He's angry because the secret's out.
That's her mascot.
Totally.
I love it.
I think it's super fun.
Yeah.
All right.
We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This.
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Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club, and we are ready to take our next caller.
Hello, caller.
Hi, my name is Brandon Davis.
I'm from Vista, California in San Diego County.
I'm the owner of PARS Mobile Mini Golf alongside my wife, Claire.
With PARS, we bring the mini golf to you for your next party or event.
Wow.
Okay, Brandon, thanks for calling in.
PARS Mobile Mini Golf.
So like I have a party and I want something to do.
You will bring a mini golf course to my party.
You will set it up.
And how does that work?
Yeah, we bring the full mini golf course.
We try to make it look as permanent as possible in the space that you have.
All we need is a flat surface.
We provide all the putters and balls.
We have designed it to be as challenging and immersive as possible.
It has a high-end look so it can go to black-tie weddings and corporate events, but it's also versatile enough where it can go to a backyard barbecue as well.
Wow.
Wow.
Who knew?
What kinds of parties?
Are they kids' parties?
Who hires you guys?
Our biggest clientele is weddings and corporate events.
Weddings?
Yeah, yeah.
So during the cocktail hour and reception they'll have it to entertain guests and you know, people can converse and meet each other over a game of mini golf.
That is so cool.
How did you even come up with this idea?
Who would have thought of this?
Yeah, I loved mini golf as a kid.
And one day my wife and I were talking and I was just like I would love to own a permanent mini golf course, like a fully immersive indoor one.
And we didn't have the money at the time.
So we were just brainstorming and thought well, what if we made it mobile?
We both have woodworking experience.
My wife is a designer.
Myself, I designed window displays for a national bookstore.
And so we just got started working on it out of our carport and started running it with four holes.
And then it just grew from there.
That is so cool.
And you're based, you said, in San Diego.
So I'm assuming most, if not all, of your business is in that area, in San Diego?
Yeah.
And we started the company in Utah, but we moved it out here because my wife's family's from here, and we just thought, this is going to be the market for it.
So we packed up our whole family of three kids after two years of running it there, moved it to California, kind of took a risk and it's paid off really well.
We've done better here in California than we ever did in Utah.
Wow.
And this is your full-time job, right?
This is what you guys are doing?
My wife is actually.
Now that it's back up on its feet and doing well.
She's going back to be an exhibit designer for the San Diego Natural History Museum.
So I'll be running it full-time myself now.
And do you have any employees?
Yeah, we have two delivery leads who can run separate routes, and then we have a pool of gig workers who will go out with them.
Right.
And give us a sense of what you guys are, in terms of revenue, what you guys are doing right now.
I mean, have you broken $100,000 a year, $150,000?
Yeah, so this year we're projected to hit over 200000 which honestly, is just mind-boggling to me that something I made out of my carport is at that point.
Yeah, that's awesome.
All right, before we dive into this, tell us what your question is.
Yeah, so a lot of small niche event businesses like ours.
They're really driven by like two products, I would say the actual product and then the client interaction and experience.
That's like just as important.
I've been going to a lot of events since we started again in California, but now that the volume is up, how do we make sure that our employees are bringing that same level of client interaction and experience that we bring, when they don't have the same skin in the game and emotional investment?
All right, Michael Dubin, lots to think about here.
Thoughts, questions, concerns, comments?
Yeah, so first of all, congrats on the business.
It's a super unique idea.
Everybody's looking for ways to make their event more fun.
But to address your question, You're highlighting a challenge that every entrepreneur faces, which is how do I get everybody else to care as much as I do about the business and about the customer experience?
And one of the best ways to do that is to create an equity pool that your employees can participate in.
Is there a way for you to make your employees the best ones, the ones that are the most loyal?
Can you give them a share of your company so that they feel the pride of ownership that you feel and they can enjoy in your success, beyond what you're paying them from a salary or gratuity basis?
I'm not sure how your team works, but that's probably the best way I could think about is letting them participate in that way in your success.
But it's a hard thing to do, especially with...
People who are being paid hourly who may not have the same passion for the category.
So another thing that employees really like is, depending on the specific company and what the role is is investing in their development as a worker.
And where do they want to grow?
Nobody comes to your company expecting it to be a lifelong relationship.
And you shouldn't expect that either, right?
That's just not how it works.
And then eventually they're going to move on and they're going to do something else.
How can you play a role in their development and say here's what we need out of you while you're here?
And by the time you leave, you're going to leave with A, B and C skills capabilities and those are going to serve you well in what you want to do, moving forward.
Yeah.
In addition, I mean giving people equity.
Amazing, because right away they're invested in that right.
They will get a piece of the – but before you go down that route, because I think you're still pretty small and you may not want to do that yet, we did an episode a couple years back about specialized bikes.
And it's worth listening to that episode because Mike Sinyard, who founded that company – was struggling in like 2000, 2001, and almost went bankrupt.
And he happened to read an article about Adidas and how Adidas really turned around their business in the United States, in part because of a brand Bible.
He thought, wow, I've been running Specialized for 20 years.
I've never written a brand Bible.
And here you are, you've got a new company, a new business and you don't have to write.
You know a 2000 page brand Bible, but you could write like a customer service manifesto, right.
Because You're not in the mini golf business.
You're in the hospitality business.
Yeah, exactly.
You're in the – like a restaurant is not serving food.
They create experiences.
Like, you go to a restaurant and yeah, the food might be great, but that's enhancing the conversation that you have with somebody else.
It's a memorable experience.
Having great food just makes it even better.
And having great customer service at the restaurant.
There are a lot of sort of points of contact.
And with what you do, it's the same thing.
It's like someone went to the wedding and they're like –
Oh, and there was a mini golf course.
It was the best wedding ever.
It was fun, and the drinks were great, and the food was great.
And so your job is to help create that joyful moment.
And I think you start by building a document.
It can be two, three, five pages in Microsoft Word or Google Docs.
It says, we're in the business of creating joy.
And you...
You basically have checklists, how to greet people, how to respond, how to smile.
The other thing I think is really critical for your business is who you hire, because you're not looking for necessarily people with specialized skills.
The most important thing you're looking for is somebody with the right attitude.
You've got to hire for attitude.
Over everything.
You can teach people how to do this stuff, but you want to look for people who maybe have worked in hospitality, who just love this stuff, who are just joyful.
And not everyone's like that.
I'm not like that.
I get grumpy all the time.
But there are lots of people out there.
Actually, most of my, all my team on How I Built It is like that.
You want to find people who just love this and love this idea and love bringing joy to people.
And that's where you start to – you create the ability to kind of let go and manage more and let other people run the show.
I'll add to that and just say –
When you're interviewing candidates, it's really important to ask them why they want this job.
What do they want to get out of it?
And how can you help them get that thing out of it?
And pay attention to the answer that you get.
You want to try to find people with that kind of passion that Guy mentioned, with that sense of joyfulness.
And you want somebody that believes in the mission and believes in the business that you're creating.
That's how you're going to get people to stay and be the right kind of ambassador once they got the job.
So pay attention to the answers that they give you, because you don't want to hire people for whom this is just a job.
Yeah.
You know, another way to incentivize people to really step up and it's relatively inexpensive is you can?
If you're not doing this already, you should be asking every client for feedback.
It's annoying because every time I buy something I'm asked for feedback, and it's a little bit overwrought, but I think you could do it in a short way.
Just a couple of quick ticks of a box.
How would you rate the experience?
And incentivize the people who are working for you to really go the extra mile.
You can give them gift cards, $100, $200, $300 gift card for doing a great job.
And really praising them for the work they do, right?
And also, most importantly, showing an example.
So when you hire people, obviously, I'm assuming you're already doing this.
They come with you.
They come with your wife.
They see how you operate, how you interact with guests, how you behave, how you go the extra mile to create those moments of joy and emphasize that that's what they need to do.
This is everything I needed, like all the things I needed.
So thank you so much.
I like want to get jumping on all of this.
So let's go mini golfing.
I want to give you, I want to just give you, two thoughts that just popped into my head about mini golf.
Cause I really do love mini golf.
Number one, I had a question.
Can you buy the kit and bring it to your own event?
Or is it, do I have to hire your company to bring to my event?
Yeah.
We only rent right now.
We've had people ask whether they can buy.
We kind of don't want to like cannibalize our own sales and our own like rental market area, but I guess it really won't with how big the market is.
And so it's just whether my wife and I can build the course out.
Well, also just think about a different consumer, right?
The product that somebody is going to buy and bring home with them is going to be very different than the thing you bring to you.
Know the event the wedding.
Definitely.
The last idea I had for you is like Could you do something where you build a live miniature, buy a miniature golf course?
That acts as a marketing tent pole for you?
Like this one idea I've always had is building a mini golf course in a beautiful botanical gardens.
And it would be attractive to both like...
People who love plants and gardens and people who love mini golf.
They come there and they fall in love with it.
And then you market having an event, we bring the course to you.
But having a real place that people can come to might be an interesting marketing tactic for you.
Yeah, we've even thought like...
With a warehouse, that we have a showroom that we really theme out, people can come and play and pay the 10 to play.
And we just re-theme it every six months or so.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Brandon Davis, company's called Pars Mobile Mini Golf.
Good luck, man.
Thanks for calling in.
Thanks so much, Guy.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
It's great having you.
The thing about mini golf, it's like, it's...
You know, I think if you get it going, it's a pretty good business, right?
It's a good business, definitely.
But yeah, I think he's got something.
I'd love to go to one of his events.
All right.
We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
And today I'm taking your calls with Michael Dubin, the founder of Dollar Shave Club.
And Michael, are you ready for the next call?
I sure am.
All right.
Let's bring in our next caller.
Welcome to The Advice Line.
You're on with Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business, please.
Hey, Guy.
Hey, Michael.
Excited to be on.
My name is Brea Fleming.
I am located in the beautiful Flint Hills of Kansas and I'm the founder and operator of Incidental Wildland LLC, and we manufacture custom uniforms for wildland firefighters.
Wow, that's awesome.
Thanks for calling in, Brio.
So custom uniforms for firefighters who fight wildland fires.
That sounds like a really niche business, although with climate change there's tons of forest fires.
How did you start this business?
What's the story behind it?
Well, long story short.
I graduated college during the recession, when there were no jobs, and I have a background in costume construction.
But I went into AmeriCorps after college because you know no jobs and I ended up on a fire team doing prescribed fire in western Iowa for the Nature Conservancy.
You were basically doing prescribed burns, right?
Just to clear out brush.
Okay.
Yep.
And you fell in love with it.
But this was just your AmeriCorps's job and you ended up staying in firefighting.
Yeah, I really loved it.
So I spent several years doing more prescribed fire crews, teams here and there.
Eventually I got into fire suppression as well.
But a prevailing issue in the industry is the terrible fit of the uniforms that were issued especially for women in the field, and having some sewing skills I thought maybe I could do something about that.
Wow.
Just like I'm assuming that the clothing is like the material is.
I mean you're, you're like what is it made of Kevlar?
I mean, what is it?
It has to be very durable, robust.
Yes.
Yeah.
So the material, um, is Aramid or Para Aramid.
Uh, the brand name is Nomex.
That's kind of what our uniforms are referred to as Nomex.
Um, And yeah, there's a Kevlar component to a lot of the pants materials that I work with as well.
It's all obviously designed to withstand, you know, they're not flammable, I'm assuming.
Right.
Yep.
So once the material, if it catches fire.
It self-extinguishes basically just like a natural fiber would cotton or wool.
And then there's also a big component on radiant heat protection.
So as the fibers heat up, they actually expand and close off all those micro gaps between fibers to protect your skin from radiant heat as well.
All right.
So the uniforms that you were using sucked.
And again, what was the problem with them?
The fit is really problematic, and that is something that's dictated by the oversight committee.
I guess you could call them the NFPA or National Fire Protection Administration, I think.
And they have a size chart in that standard that dictates.
It's a little technical, but basically it's called wearing ease.
Like if I make a pair of pants and your waist measurement is 32, if I made your pants at a waist 32, they would be too tight because that's skin tight.
So in garment making, we add what's called wearing ease to make it fit and move on your body.
And there's a practical amount of wearing ease, and then there's an excessive amount of wearing ease.
And basically what the NFPA dictates is an excessive amount of wearing ease that leads to weariness.
Basically, a uniform that makes you feel like you're going to work in an oversized duffel bag.
It's just a practical question.
I'm assuming most firefighters are hired to.
You know they're hired and they're provided with uniforms.
And so how common is it for them to be like, you know, I'm going to go buy my own stuff?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And I would say, from what I've seen from my clients, most of them are either purchasing their uniform from me with a company card or they're being reimbursed.
I do occasionally get folks who feel strongly enough about it that they're buying out of their own pockets.
But in my opinion, that shouldn't happen.
Your employer should be providing your PPE for you.
And you're mostly making, you're not just making apparel for women, right?
Right.
Women, men and I also do a small amount of accessories like utility wallets and tool pouches and that kind of thing.
Lots of questions.
Before we get to them, tell us your question for us today.
My question is about scaling.
I've been in business nine years.
It's been very slow.
I've reinvented wheels.
I did not need to reinvent, just kind of been bootstrapping. and creating a day job for myself.
And I'm at the point where I have more demand than I myself can produce.
And so I'm just kind of at a loss as to where to focus next and how to choose what to scale first and what to try.
Got it.
Okay.
Michael Dubin.
This is a very interesting.
There's a, I can't remember that big one.
There's a big one, but- Figs.
Figs, right.
Yeah.
Right.
So there's a world where, like you know, what started out as firefighting apparel can become, you know, working people's.
But anyway, thoughts about incidental wildland.
Yeah, first of all, nice to meet you.
Thanks for building this business.
This is an area that's close to my heart.
During the pandemic I started a wildfire nonprofit and we do some lobbying, we do some fuel mitigation work and some forest management work as well.
But I think the space that you're working in is really cool.
And I think it's a cool business.
Look, it sounds like you need to raise some money so that you can go out and hire staff or develop a manufacturing partnership with someone.
That's essentially the point that you're at.
I mean, you said it, demand is not your problem.
So if this is really just a supply chain production issue, I would say my question back to you is have you found manufacturing partners that can help you develop the product to your specifications, or are you still on the hunt?
Sure, yeah.
So I've kind of started down that road.
I now have a part-time employee and a couple of contract sewists that I work with, and I've also started utilizing a contract cut and sew company in Kansas City, near where I live, and that's been great.
What I've found though, is that, Of all the hats I wear as a business owner, the sewing is the only thing I can pay myself for.
So if I'm handing off all the sewing, there's nothing left for me.
And I would like to continue having an income.
So that's tricky.
But I feel like I'm starting to have the systems in place to build.
And maybe it is just a question of volume and better marketing.
Or maybe there are some other things I could be thinking about, too.
I'm curious about what you just said, because I mean the sewing, your sewing skills are important, but they're more proof of concept, right?
I mean, the long term value is in your designs, and that's your IP, right?
And your credibility, because you are a firefighter.
And so why can't you hire sewers and focus on the other parts of the business?
I guess that's just a margin issue and possibly a fundraising issue.
The material is incredibly expensive.
And people are used to paying a premium for this type of garment.
But I'm very passionate about the industry.
I don't want to be the most expensive product on the market.
I want to be accessible to the people, like you mentioned earlier, who are still on the hook for buying this stuff out of their own pockets.
And I just yeah, I'm not quite sure how much room I have to raise prices and increase my margins and be able to pay for things like that my time designing or my time marketing.
All right.
So then, I guess, my next thought would be well, if that's the case, what about doubling down on accessories?
Because I imagine that might be a little bit more scalable for the time being.
Even though your passion may be in the uniforms, accessories might have higher margins.
I'm assuming, like I don't know, gloves or pouches or whatever belts, like whatever accessories that you might need as a firefighter.
Is that true?
Would the margins be better?
Yes, accessories have a better margin and it would be more scalable.
So I guess that would be just kind of an education question on my part.
Like I've never done any kind of B2B.
I don't know how to approach a retailer about carrying my products.
But yeah, it's worth thinking about for sure.
Bria, have you raised any money?
What's your philosophy or thoughts around raising some investment capital?
I have never tried, honestly.
Okay.
Well, how do you feel about trying?
I would love to do that and see what I could do with it.
Yeah.
By the way Michael, you mentioned this briefly, but I think it's worth just kind of double clicking on this.
It's like an ecotourism nonprofit where people can go and fight, like learn about how to fight wildfires on their vacations, basically.
Is that right?
Yeah.
More or less.
And it's had a bit of a meandering journey.
But we kind of started out wanting to raise awareness for the importance of fuel mitigation work and forest management work.
And so we thought could we create opportunities for individuals or companies looking to do kind of an eco retreat or some community service type thing to come out to our spot in Montana and work with the US?
Forest Service to do the fuel mitigation work, learn how it all works and then go back to their communities and spread the gospel.
Where it has migrated a little bit towards is bringing influential people in business and government out into the wild land to learn about this work, to hopefully influence public policy.
And we've had some really great success so far.
That's fantastic.
That's super cool.
Michael, I'm seeing an incidental wildland Safewoods collab.
Yeah, who do you buy your uniforms from?
You get your CEOs out there, they want to dress up like firefighters.
Well, you can count on that.
So hit me up on LinkedIn and we'll do it.
But it doesn't sound like demand is your problem.
I'd hate to create more of a challenge for you, but we'll absolutely get these outfits on our staff and on the US.
Forest folks if they're willing to do it, and then our guests, of course.
But I think you should really think about raising some money.
You have the seedlings of a really big idea here, and it's not more than the seedlings.
It's already starting to grow.
And I think gosh pardon the annoying pun, but it's time to put some fuel on the fire and create a little bit of buzz around this.
And I really think there are folks out there that can help you make the stuff, whether those are individuals doing it in more of a homespun way, kind of like you're doing.
And then I think there's probably some quasi-industrial sources that you could lean on to help you.
But you're going to need some money to go around and travel to meet them and and learn about them.
And then maybe you're going to need some cash because you're probably not going to get debt right away.
You're probably going to need to put some equity capital into your first inventory purchases.
But I would say don't be afraid of raising money.
I think you could probably raise from both investors that look to invest in companies that are for profit, but also, because this is such a public good, I bet you could get some funding from folks that invest in nonprofits as well.
Michael, I think that's an interesting idea.
But don't you think that, in order for Bria to attract capital, the vision has to go beyond firefighting like, for you know, workwear welders, electrical utility workers down the road, like something like that?
Well, I think that's a great point.
I think you always want to go if you're pitching.
Short answer is it depends who you're pitching, but you can never go wrong with going out with a big vision for how you're going to grow beyond your initial category.
So it's great advice and you should think beyond that.
That said, you might find yourself talking to folks who invest in wildland fire nonprofits that might say well, this actually feels like a public good that's connected to our mission.
So you may not need to do it, but I would say, if you have ideas for other categories, some of which Guy just mentioned that are great ones, absolutely include that in your pitch, because what investors want to hear is the big idea.
How is this going to be the next category killer and disrupt an industry?
Yeah.
And you have a great story.
Female firefighter.
I mean, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there aren't that many female firefighters, wild firefighters.
I just probably vast majority are men.
Yeah, I think the last statistic I heard was the wildland fire scene is about 87 percent male.
Okay, so 13% of these firefighters are women.
I mean, you've got a natural story here.
So there's a lot of sort of media.
I can imagine a lot of media opportunities to tell that story down the road.
But I really think that it's an interesting idea.
Right.
If you want to scale this up, you've got to find a better supply chain and you've got to figure out ways to make to sort of lower costs so you can focus on expanding the business.
One just quick thought.
And I really I hesitate to bring this up, but I'm going to anyway, because I'm a huge, huge proponent of of making things locally and domestically.
And you emphasize American made everything.
But I wonder if there's a world where some of the products, some of the sourcing, can come from overseas.
That might lower costs.
Sure.
Yeah, it probably would.
And that's honestly not something that I've really entertained the idea of up to this point.
But there are a lot of good options as far as ethically sourcing overseas production.
And, you know, if it got to that point, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
Yeah.
Michael, any last thoughts for Bria before we send her off into a collaboration with Safewoods?
I would love to see you raise a couple bucks.
I think you can do it.
It's a good product.
It's a great story.
There's a big market to disrupt and have fun with, and you're already having success.
I think you've got all the ingredients of a good fundraising story.
So it might not come naturally to you, but I would encourage you to do it.
There's a lot of knowledge out there on the web to help you with your pitch and help you fine-tune it.
But look, don't hesitate.
I think it's something that you'll be really good at.
Bria Fleming, Incidental Wildland, thanks so much for calling in.
Good luck.
Thank you both so much.
And Michael, thanks so much for your work in the fire mitigation space.
That's really awesome.
Thank you, Bria.
Good luck.
Awesome.
I mean, I know you live in LA, you spend a lot of time in LA, but California obviously has had some serious issues with wildfires.
How did you get into that?
Like, why did you decide to do that?
You just, at a certain point, when you live in the West, you're going to collide with this issue in some way and you're going to know somebody that's been affected by it.
And as somebody who I just stepped down as CEO of Dollar Shave Club in January of 21.
And I was looking for something to sink my teeth into and I got smoked out of this vacation.
And I just kind of went deep down the rabbit hole to learn about wildfire and and wildland fire and how it and and and all the policy related issues, et cetera, and decided to start Safewood.
So yeah, it was, it was sort of a, outside of my wheelhouse, but I'm really glad I've done it.
It's connected me to some really incredible people, both on the federal government side at the US Forest side and then other really big thinkers in the policy space.
That's awesome.
Michael, before I let you go, a question that I've been asking every founder who comes back on to help me on the advice line, which is if you could go back to 2011, 2010 or whatever, when you were sort of starting this out.
You had a marketing background, you had improv, but you didn't know how to run a business.
Knowing what you know now, what would have been helpful for you to know back then?
Gosh, I think probably some of the best advice I would have given myself back then probably would have been more on the personal side.
I was consumed with... with the business and making it successful.
And I think in some ways that pulled me out of being more present in some other areas of my life.
And so I think I would have tried to give myself some advice around, just taking it as it comes, creating more personal time for you and space for other things in your life.
That would have been really helpful.
I think I would have felt calmer throughout the journey.
At the same time, it was a completely invigorating journey.
And I loved every second of it, even the really, really hard stuff, even the sleepless nights.
But I think with that advice, there might have been a few fewer sleepless nights.
But on the professional side, I would say, learn to trust.
I never had a problem trusting people outside my core competency in areas like finance or supply chain or operations, because I didn't come from those backgrounds.
So it was easy to trust those people.
But as the team grew, you know, and I would hire folks in marketing in –
Other areas that were closer to my experience set, I would say you know it's sometimes hard to let go of the things that you love doing, but you have to do that to achieve the right level of scale.
Yeah, I love that.
Michael, thanks so much for coming back on.
Thank you for having me.
This was super fun.
That's Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club.
And, by the way, if you haven't heard Michael's original How I Built This episode, please go back and check it out.
You can find a link to it in the show notes.
And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
So our first investor was a company called Science throughout in Santa Monica.
They gave us a $100,000 check.
Actually, no, they gave us a $100 check by accident first.
And I got all the way to the bank.
I literally, I got to the bank and I was like, here's my check for $100,000.
You had to fill out the form that said 100000 and I fill it out and the woman looks at me and she's like uh-uh.
We'll see you next time.
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This episode was produced by Noor Gill with music composed by Ramtina Rablui.
It was edited by Andrea Bruce.
Our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Katherine Seifer, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
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