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Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show.
I'll see you next time.
All right, let's get to it.
Joining me today is John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft.
John, it's great to have you back on the show.
Welcome back.
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
We first had you on the show back in 2017.
You also came to some of the How I Built a Summit.
So awesome having you.
When you were on the show – and we'll put a link to that episode in the podcast notes –
You told us about how you and your friend Logan Green built what started as a carpooling platform, and then you built it into one of the biggest rideshare apps in the world, of course, Lyft.
It's an incredible story.
You guys went up against so much along the way.
There were governments telling you to cease and desist.
You had an epic battle with your main competitor, Uber, which was quite ugly.
And there's actually a sort of a dramatization of this. that came out a couple of years ago.
I thought you came out really nicely in that, actually.
Anyway, since then, there's been some pretty big changes since we last spoke.
You were president of Lyft.
Logan was CEO.
Then in 2023, both of you guys transitioned to non-executive roles on the board.
And then just last month, I think you both left Lyft entirely.
So tell us a little bit about that.
Why did you leave?
Why was now the right time to do it?
Yeah, it was very difficult.
We love Lyft, love the team, love the CEO, David, who's doing a phenomenal job.
But we wanted to both have another chapter in our lives and make sure that Lyft had the right leadership in place for its own next chapter, and we felt that it did.
And so we had a two-year process where we went from operating rules to the board and then off the board just a few weeks ago.
How does that feel for you?
I mean, this is your thing that you started.
Yeah, I think the harder step for me was leaving the operating role.
It was what I did every day.
It gave me a lot of purpose and meaning outside of my family life.
And then going from...
Being, I would argue, obsessed with making Lyft the best possible company it could be, to not doing that every day, to having all my time in the day free.
It was a hard transition, but the second part of the transition kind of moving off the board was a little less difficult.
And I'm also excited about building again.
Yeah, I'd just like to dive into that for a moment, because I think a lot of people assume oh wow, you know you build this huge thing and you know it's a huge brand, and then you get to do a victory lap and then you can like go and drink margaritas in Mexico.
But when you go from, like working at you know, operating at 100 miles an hour, and then all of a sudden, like you are at home, you wake up and there is no, all those things that you had to do are gone.
You don't have to do them.
Yeah.
It's actually really hard.
Yeah, it was.
It's a privileged problem to have, but for three months, I think I felt relief.
My shoulders dropped.
I was on constant cortisol adrenaline rushes when I was at Lyft and kind of in this fight or flight mode for many years because of all the early battles you mentioned.
And then, after those three months of just feeling almost like a physical ah, like i feel a bit relieved, um then i felt a little bit lost and uh, you know, i'm in the kitchen with my wife talking about how we could, you know, reorganize different canisters, and she's like you, you need to, you need to do something else get out of the house yeah yeah, and so uh, so yeah, it's been a journey since then um, but you know, i'd advise several entrepreneurs made some investments and and now going back to kind of more full-time work again, and so i love doing it, i love creating businesses with missions that i believe in, and And that's the plan.
All right.
When you made this announcement that you were leaving Lyft in August, you also announced the launch of a new venture called Yes And.
And it said, I think it says something like, I'm going to leave everybody hanging here.
What can you tell us about it that you're comfortable talking about now?
Yeah, so just at a high level.
I got to zoom out a lot during that time and to the point of thinking about capitalism as a whole.
And I remember listening to a speech from Malay, the leader in Argentina, and he gave this speech about capitalism, how capitalism and entrepreneurship are the most amazing thing ever.
And it was actually quite inspiring.
But he also just said any form of growth is good.
So I felt like he got 80% of the way there.
But if I thought about.
Well, soda.
In my opinion, if you get people to drink a lot of soda, you apply capitalism to sugar water, you get diabetes.
I don't think that's a great outcome.
I mean, you can build a successful business off it.
But what we're seeing in food is that more and more people are looking for healthy outcomes.
I said well, how could we create multiple consumer businesses that are tuned to the modern world of social media, internet and AI, but that have self-fulfilling, very positive outcomes?
So simply, we're creating a platform to help more and more people build those type of businesses.
You also mentioned just the challenges of Lyft.
And I know, you know, I've seen you from time to time over the years, and it's a big job.
And Lyft is an amazing brand.
I still use it.
I just used it from the airport recently, just actually last week.
And you have been pretty open about the mental health struggles that you faced, right?
Because a lot of people, even around you, they look to you.
You're the leader.
You've got to be strong.
You've got to be decisive.
Right.
But then you come home at night and you're like, I can't sleep.
My brain is reeling or I've got anxiety.
And it happens to all of us, right?
Yep.
What do you think – would have been helpful for you to know?
Or, i guess, what would you have done differently?
Yeah, i mean it's.
It's it really comes back to the basics of sleep, diet and exercise, and it's.
I don't want to blame external externalities.
Like I myself was putting a lot of pressure on myself.
Like I should be working at all hours to make this succeed.
I have a lot of people depending on me.
People have invested in the business and I want them to do well.
I want, you know, drivers and riders to be safe and do well.
So it felt selfish almost to take time for myself.
But I think the main learning is if I don't do that, if I don't get the necessary sleep, exercise and, you know nutrients, then I'm not going to be able to better serve all those different populations.
So it's really, really basic, but in the storm, hard to see.
Yeah, it's, I mean, absolutely critical.
And I think we're going to probably talk a bit more about that.
Why don't we bring in our first caller?
You ready?
Sounds good.
All right.
Welcome to the advice line.
You're on with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business.
Hi, John.
Hi, Guy.
I'm Alan Summerfield.
I'm the founder of Shower Spa, calling from Nottingham in the United Kingdom.
And we're on a mission to make showers safer, easier and more luxurious for everyone.
All right, Alan, welcome.
So glad you're listening in the UK.
Shower Spa.
Yeah.
Spelled S-P-A-A-H, like spa.
Yeah, we put the R in spa.
I love that.
What is Shower Spa?
What do you sell?
So Shower Spa is the first device of its kind to mix soap and water on demand.
It gives you a shower of warm, scented bubbles straight from the shower head, which is an experience frankly, not to be missed.
So it's a shower head that basically takes the soap, like the shower gel or shower soap, and then it combines it with the water.
So you're just getting sprayed with the... Exactly.
It's like a car wash for people, but way nicer.
But how do you rinse off the soap?
It's two parts.
You just turn it off.
All right.
You're not just like in suds all day.
And this is a device that you screw onto the...
To the pipes?
Yeah, exactly.
Just screw it on a couple of minutes.
If you can change a light bulb, you can connect this.
And where did it come from?
Did you find it somewhere?
Did you create it?
There's two parts.
So yeah, I created it.
The technical story started actually almost 20 years ago in Los Angeles when I was working for one of the major shower manufacturers there.
That was the technical part.
But then it was a few years back when I noticed my mother having more difficulty with balance around the house.
And actually, you know, bathrooms are really dangerous places.
And I thought, you know, after a career of designing, It's kind of discretionary products.
Wouldn't it be nice to do something that really help people out?
So that's where we focus, because not having to mess around with bottles of body wash means you're not fiddling with them.
You're not dropping them.
You're not falling over when you're trying to pick them up and so on.
So it makes it much safer.
That's so cool.
So when did you decide to take the leap and start your own thing?
It's a classic pandemic story.
I had a little bit more time on my hands and I thought, you know what?
This idea has been kicking around my head for almost 20 years.
I'm going to do something.
I'm not going to wait for one of these big corporates to make their mind up.
And I thought, yep, let's do it.
Let's get it to market.
I love this.
All right, so I'm looking at your website now.
So now I can see it.
It is basically a soap dispenser that you connect, just screw on into the shower head, shower.
Yes.
Handheld that you attach.
And tell me, how did you fund it?
I mean, did you raise money?
How did you get this manufactured?
I'm a classic bootstrapping story.
I told my children that the bank of dad was going to close down for a bit and I cashed in some of my pension fund.
So I'm bootstrapping.
Reminds me of another great British inventor, James Dyson, who was on our show many years ago.
He did the same thing and he struggled and struggled.
He spent all of his cash.
And then, of course, that vacuum cleaner went.
It's now the biggest, you know, vacuum brand in the world.
Yeah.
All right.
So tell me where the business is at right now.
You've got this thing.
I'm assuming you're selling mainly online.
Yeah, mainly online in the UK.
We've been in the market about a year.
We've sold –
Two, two and a half thousand units made about $200,000.
So getting great reviews, you know, some, you know, people are calling it life changing.
There are people there who were scared to take a shower who now can take a shower again without worrying about hurting themselves.
So really this is designed initially for people who have sort of disabilities or mobility issues?
Well, initially it was designed as a luxury product, but then I discovered this real need for people who have these issues.
So it's a fully inclusive design.
Wow.
We use it every day.
It is quicker, more convenient, and feels great.
It is just a better way to take a shower.
All right.
Before we dive in, I'm so impressed with this.
Tell us what your question is for us.
So we've got off to a great start here in the UK.
Obviously, the market for this in the US where you guys are is substantially larger.
And I'm considering how do I scale into that market?
And there's a kind of a nuts and bolts part to it about fulfillment.
Do I get warehousing and start doing the same thing I'm doing here in the USA?
How do I balance that with actually branching away from the mobility market into the broader luxury wellness market?
Because ultimately, every show on the planet should have one of these in it.
Right.
So how do you and should you get into the U.S. market?
And obviously it makes sense.
You've got 65 million people in Britain, but I mean 330 million in the U.S., right?
It's a market that everybody wants to come to.
John Zimmer, I want to bring you in.
Have you seen this?
Are you looking at their website?
Have you seen it?
Yeah, I just checked it out while you were talking.
It's awesome.
Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic.
And I love the kind of personal story of why it's meaningful to you, Alan.
I think a lot of the best products and businesses come from a passionate place.
So loved hearing that you built it for a family member.
Yeah, yeah.
So what do you think?
I mean, any questions for Alan before we dive into his question?
Yeah, so do you know, of that 2000 to 3000 units, what percent was from people needing it for mobility challenges versus kind of the luxury use case you talked about?
Well, we've only been marketing it to the mobility challenge people.
So I'd say virtually all in that market.
But we also get some people who are buying it to wash their dog.
Oh, it's perfect for my dog.
Oh, that's a really good idea.
I cannot keep my dog still because this is perfect for my dog.
Yeah.
So, I mean, my quick reaction is I would –
I would wanna run a few tests on the different use cases.
So now I didn't even think of until you said that, the dog use case and the luxury use case, to really understand kind of what's your cost per acquiring a new customer.
And it feels like that could be easier to do it in your current home market and really understand the unit economics of.
OK, I want to go find that luxury user.
I want to go find that dog washer.
But to understand those basic economics I think you know in the way you asked the question.
I don't know that you need to set up the warehousing yourself.
You know whether you think about using someone either like a third-party logistics solution or Amazon.
Yeah, I'll be using Shopify at the moment.
I've got a 3PL here in the UK.
Yeah.
So I think there are obviously very low cost ways to bring this to the US.
Maybe it doesn't give you the same amount of margin, but at least you're learning.
And so I would want to test and learn as I expand into a big market, because one risk of going too wide early is that maybe you're tweaking the product or the way you market it and can do it more efficiently.
But balanced with, I think it's exciting to see the fast start.
So I wouldn't wait too long.
Yeah, I think it was one of the many business books you read that says when you've got a product that can do everything, pick one thing and really focus on it.
So I decided to focus on mobility as a starting point.
I think that's really smart.
I mean, I think back to some of the episodes we've done like Peloton, right, or even Warby Parker.
Like Peloton started with serious cyclists, like real, like hardcore athletes.
And then it became a huge fitness thing, right, for mass consumers.
Even Warby Parker was like –
For a certain kind of person frustrated with expensive glasses, and now it's a brand.
It's a fashion brand, right?
Like it's just you go in and you get – it's everywhere.
So I think that really leaning into that category of – mobility, people who need extra help.
That's a really smart play.
I'm curious, are there?
I mean I have to imagine in the UK there are, like in the US, retirement villages and large care facilities.
Have you tried to to connect with some of these places to see if there is a world where you know there's?
You've got large orders.
I mean, there's 500,000 care home beds in the UK and I think 1.4 million supported living units.
There is a, you know, we've got lowering birth rates and increasing lifespan.
So we've got a care gap that's just getting wider.
So absolutely.
Yeah.
Trying to make those connections, but that's a, that's a longer game than selling DTC off.
Yeah.
I have a question for you.
I mean, right now, Alan, I'm assuming it's just you doing everything?
Pretty much, yeah.
Okay.
At this point, John, I'm thinking he's got to take the leap and hire like a biz dev person.
I don't know.
What do you think in terms of?
I mean, it's hard because it's still a small business and he doesn't want to lose.
You know it's risky.
You got to pay somebody.
But maybe there's a way to attract somebody to do business development and give them some equity.
Yeah, I think if you find the right, maybe up-and-comer who's excited, entrepreneurial and could have those longer lead time conversations with you, or for you, because I agree with the sentiment.
Both, Alan, I think your pushback is good on focus.
Focus is really, really important.
And you're kind of winning in that category.
But those, I mean, the number of beds you just outlined, that's a pretty exciting opportunity.
And so if someone could be, and I think in the US, it's pretty consolidated opportunity.
Obviously, there's a long tail, but there are some players that have a lot of those care facilities.
And so those feel like really good conversations to be having.
Yeah, I'm just getting into my first fundraising round with the objective of hiring that kind of business staff person, if I can find that person.
So, John, I'm just curious.
Like, if you're looking at a product like this, right, I mean, it does make sense.
You want to come to the U.S. market.
And there are all these use cases.
But, I mean, what do you think?
I mean, should he –
Should he spend most of his time focusing on retirement communities, people with mobility issues?
Every hotel you go to has ADA rooms and things like that.
I could see this in Marriott comfort inns and residence inns and stuff like that.
Yeah, that's why I mean, I think there's a few different approaches.
I do think focus matters, particularly when you're a team of one.
But I imagine there is a bigger opportunity or an additional opportunity beyond mobility.
So I would that's why, you know, the initial thought was run a few experiments with mobility.
With AdWords, Google AdWords or some other product like that or something on Amazon, you can market it in a couple different ways and understand your cost to acquire that customer.
And you know for the thousand people, or the 10000 people that saw the ad, how many clicked, how many purchased and what was the cost to find them.
That would be really interesting information to me if I was making a decision about going wider at this point.
Sure, it's great advice yeah, and then having a few of those conversations with the um kind of channel sales opportunities to those uh, you know, over 65 homes uh, because that does feel like a really straightforward sale.
Absolutely yeah, that's great advice thanks, Yeah.
Hopefully Alan, we'll talk to you on the main show one day, when you're selling billions of dollars for this.
That's been my dream, my dream.
The brand is called Shower Spa, S-P-A-A-H.
Alan Summerfield, thanks for calling in.
Thanks for having me.
Cheers.
Bye-bye-bye.
Thank you.
Good luck.
Yeah, I like that.
I really I love when you've got a founder who's invented something you know.
Most of the time it's engineers and they just know how to build stuff.
Yeah, I mean, Dyson, Litter Robot.
We've had Leatherman, the Leatherman knife.
Do you know why it's called the Leatherman?
I don't.
You didn't listen to the episode.
I'm going to tell you why.
No, you caught me.
Do you know why?
Because the guy's name is Tim Leatherman.
That's why it's called the Leatherman.
I would not have guessed that.
Yeah.
It's a perfect name for the knife, and his name is Tim Leatherman.
There you go.
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice.
I'm Guy Raz.
Stick around.
You're listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
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Welcome back to The Advice Line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft, and we are taking your calls and we are ready for our next caller.
Hello, welcome to The Advice Line.
You're on with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, I'm Terry Levy.
I'm calling from Los Angeles, California, and I'm the founder of Ruckstar.
We are a company that is trying to make rucking accessible to everyone, especially women, by designing weighted backpacks and weighted vests that people can incorporate into their daily activities and get stronger with every step.
I love it.
You said Ruckstar, but it's spelled R-U-K-S-T-R.
Is it pronounced Ruckstar or Ruckster?
Ruckstar or ruckstar.
Our community are called ruckstars.
Ruckstars.
Okay.
I love it.
So these are weighted backpacks rucking, right?
Awesome.
Great for zone two exercise.
You just put like strap one on and then you would take a walk and it increases your heart rate.
Tell me, how did you get into this?
Yeah, so I've been an athlete my whole life, a runner.
John, I know you've been track star, so I was too.
That was a long time ago.
Yeah, mine too.
Believe it or not, mine too.
And as I've aged, my recovery has taken longer, and About four years ago I discovered rucking and I was intrigued by it, looking for something to kind of level up my daily walks.
I was doing a lot of walking and hiking and not running as much, and started building my own packs, did extensive market research to see what products there were out there and found that the products out there were not necessarily designed for women or the everyday woman.
And the benefits of actually weighted walking are really incredible for women.
So I decided that I was going to start building my own packs.
Wow, that's awesome.
And so I've got weighted vests and I'm just curious and forgive me, I just don't know, right?
How would it be designed different for a woman?
Well, so we first started with the weighted backpack and we focused on comfort.
Most women don't like to be uncomfortable.
Most people don't like to be uncomfortable.
So when people think something is uncomfortable, they immediately assume something's wrong.
So we looked at extra padding.
We looked at how it's going to fit on the shoulder blades, the impact that it's going to have as you carry.
We have a removable waist belt adjustability things that are easy for someone to do when they're out on the trail or on a walk.
Soon discovered... that women don't like to carry backpacks.
So we iterated and found actually a commodity item which was a weighted vest and ran a test selling weighted vests and we had huge success.
So then we designed our own weighted vest, And now we're acquiring customers with weighted vests but moving them into the backpack.
So our backpacks are actually starting to sell now.
And revenue, can you give us a sense of what you've done?
Yeah, in the first year, we did 400K.
That's awesome.
Wow.
And this is all direct-to-consumer?
Yes.
Director Consumer Bootstrapped from our website.
Wow.
That's amazing.
Okay.
Tell us what your question is before we dive in more.
Yeah, so we're a bootstrap startup, as I mentioned, and we consistently are selling out of inventory due to demand, but we have limited capital.
The current tariff policies are exacerbating the problem, with the uncertainty around our capital needs and delivery delays due to related increased customs inspections activity.
What strategies of funding options would you recommend so we can front our inventory investment needs reliably, meet demand and grow sustainably?
All right, John Zimmer, I'm going to bring you in.
You're looking very trim and fit now that you have not running the day-to-day, I must say.
Thoughts, questions, comments for Terry?
One, congrats.
That's a huge accomplishment in one year to have that type of revenue.
And, like in the last few weeks, I just keep seeing people walking around the neighborhood with weighted vests.
It feels like it's a really good moment.
As Guy said, zone two is something a lot of people are talking about.
So I think you're off to a fantastic start.
So have you looked into inventory financing or like line of credit?
We have looked into it and we have taken on a little bit of debt, but we really need to buy quite a bit of inventory.
And at the moment there aren't that many lines available for financing inventory that we have found.
Got it.
I have a friend in New York and I don't know if we can follow up after, but I can provide maybe their contact information who has really specialized in finding people that are selling on Amazon or direct to consumer.
Because it does feel like in many cases, a business like yours has these financing needs and it was an unmet need.
And he's done very well.
I'm actually an investor in his credit fund, which does this kind of thing.
And even, John, I think like Shopify does this.
And I mean, there's some big companies that have versions of this.
Yeah, we took out debt from Shopify.
Oh, great.
So we took advantage of that for sure.
Like I said, the demand is outpacing the inventory and we're kind of like we would have been further along in revenue, but we keep selling out.
So we would have sold out, I think, five times in the past year.
We cannot just bring enough inventory in, and that's the biggest issue.
Well, I mean, this is a phenomenal problem to have, but understand, you can go bigger if you solve it.
I think, like I said, there are these solutions.
Sounds like you've already used Shopify.
I think there are more parties out there I would keep searching.
And then you can go to more of a friends and family approach where you look at the type of terms that Shopify was offering.
Because things are going well, because you have momentum, you're starting to get the data on how much working capital you need to fulfill orders.
What you predict demand will be in Q4.
I think there should be other people that are excited to help support that.
Definitely.
I mean that's a good idea to use the Shopify terms to kind of go out and then establish what people will get in return.
Can I address the tariff question for a moment?
Where are you making them now?
Where are they made?
We're importing from China and Pakistan.
And I think – well, China right now I think is okay, right?
But I wonder whether just to kind of hedge your bets, is it worth exploring –
Like Mexico, for example, or even I don't even know if they can be.
I'm sure there's some US manufacturing that prices would be higher, costs would be higher.
But is Mexico something worth exploring?
I mean, definitely for our weighted backpacks, we kind of went down that road and looked into it.
There just isn't the skill set there just yet to do what we need.
And then also, as far as the weighted vests, it's the raw materials.
The raw materials are the challenging part.
They're tiny little iron pellets.
And I've even spoken with manufacturers in the US that manufacture like frying pans or anything like, to see if they have remnants that we can kind of figure out how to turn those iron remnants into iron pellets.
And it's literally impossible.
Are you able to do pre-orders where people pay in advance?
And is that something you've tried?
So I kind of have a moral dilemma with that.
I am, by trade, a digital marketer and I just feel like pre-orders, I don't know.
It sets you up for failure down the line.
It's my own personal issue.
But what do you think about that?
Should we take pre-orders?
Customer finance inventory, basically.
I don't know.
What do you think, John?
I don't know.
If people want it, they're going to buy it and wait.
I'd say it's not ideal for a customer, but it's better than spending whatever the cost is of the capital.
Um, and you can build fans.
I love the way you talked about the community as rock star rock stars.
And I think, use it as one of your community building.
Tell them your story, you know, bring them in on the journey.
Um, and, and maybe they get a small discount.
Think about how much you would be paying the bank to do that credit financing.
Why don't we pass that to the customers?
That's right.
A small discount or pre-order.
Pre-order is going to be 5% cheaper.
I guess it's all about positioning and marketing when it comes down to it, right?
How are you going to position and market it?
Because, as a digital marketer, when you take pre-orders, I feel like you need to be able to let them know when they're going to get the expectation of when they're going to get their product.
I like that it makes you uncomfortable because it shows you care a lot about the customer.
I think it's an opportunity if you are honest and explain your story.
I think it's a good one.
I mean, I'm thinking on your website.
Demand is through the roof.
We can't keep up with you.
We will get these.
We're getting these out the door as fast as possible.
Sorry for the delay.
But if you preorder it, we'll give you 5% discount to show our appreciation.
I would order it.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, we are coming out with a new product and I've been kind of mulling over my head like do we just put it up for pre-order as also a test to see whether or not there's really demand and interest for the new product?
So you guys have kind of pushed me in that direction.
All right, good.
Good.
John, any last thoughts?
No, I think, like I said, I think it's very exciting.
These are good problems to have.
And congrats.
Thank you.
I will definitely want to connect with you to maybe see if your buddy who has that financing.
You're on LinkedIn probably, John, right?
Yep.
All right.
Hit them up.
All right.
All right.
Terry Levy, Ruckster is the brand.
Congrats.
Thanks for calling in.
Good luck.
All right.
Are you doing any rucking?
I haven't done it but, like I said, literally in the last week or two I've seen a ton of people walking around the neighborhood with weighted vests and I was surprised.
That zone two thing is very... It's crazy because... you can still have a conversation.
But if you do it for an hour it actually increases your VO2 max over like it has a huge impact like benefit.
I've seen it.
It's amazing.
Sprints are great too, but if you can like, keep in your zone two heart rate for an hour, it's like, and that those, those weighted vests, really help you get there well this, this conversation, might have put me over the edge.
There you go.
You're over the edge, dude.
All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
Bye.
Welcome back to The Advice Line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft.
John, you ready for our next call?
Let's go.
All right, let's bring in our last caller.
Welcome to The Advice Line.
You're on with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a line or two about your business, please.
Hey guys, what an honor.
I really appreciate your time.
My name is Kobe.
I am the co-founder of Slow Coco, calling from the Bronx in New York City.
We are a craft chocolate maker.
We make chocolate that nourishes the emotions as much as the taste buds.
For us, that means no more than one to four ingredients, starting always with single origin cacao, sourced from folks we know and can visit.
Wow.
All right.
Welcome to the show, Kobe.
So it's slow cocoa, four ingredients and you've literally you visit the places where they grow the cacao.
Yeah.
That's right.
My sister Tovia, who's my co-founder.
We were just visiting our farmers that we work with in Guatemala earlier this year.
These are often indigenous communities that have been harvesting for generations.
And to be able to share our chocolate with the folks that are making it possible on the ground is a real important part of the work we do.
When did you start this business?
We've been in business just over four and a half years.
And what was the impetus?
Were you in food or chocolate or confections?
What were you doing before?
Oh, gosh.
I wish I had some background in the industry.
I joke that I'm a recovering real estate agent.
For me, it was an opportunity during the pandemic to continue in this hobby of making chocolate at home, following the curiosity of how is this food that I grew up with from such a young age?
How is it made?
And the opportunity to make it from scratch became addictive in many ways.
When you say you made it from scratch at home, you were literally like roasting beans and grinding them, and or were you buying pre, you know, just chocolate bars and melting it down and putting it into molds?
I bought a kilo of beans off of Amazon.
It said single origin Peru.
That was it.
And I remember thinking to myself, this will be the best batch of chocolate I've ever tried.
It was the first time I made it.
I roast them.
Exactly.
I got a special equipment.
You roast them in the oven?
No, at first I did it in the ovens following a special, you know, turning.
Yes, eventually I got a small little countertop roaster.
Right.
Go through the whole process.
I have a studio apartment with a cat.
So, you know, I covered my dresser at the foot of my bed with tinfoil going through this process.
I make it, turns out, I couldn't finish the bar.
I couldn't share it with anyone.
It was awful.
So that started me on the journey of, all right, what went wrong?
And how does Kraft chocolate actually deliver the flavor complexity that got me hooked?
Wow.
So clearly, eventually, you figured out how to do this.
And you decided I mean, it sounds like already back during the pandemic you decided you want to start a business.
I think I was one foot out the door with real estate in the sense that as soon as I discovered a space that was not gatekeeping in the way that I had learned to experience the capitalism that surrounds me, that was interested in elevating the industry for everyone's sake.
That stood out to me.
So I was learning to do it, not from classes.
I was learning from folks who, in theory, should be my competitors.
They were connecting me with the original farms that we were partnering with.
They were there when I had specific questions.
And to this day there is definitely an eagerness and a drive within this industry to move us all forward.
But the reasons are different.
It's for the sake of the folks on the ground at Origins, to improve the livelihood of folks who are making chocolate possible, for the sake of environmental conditions that are totally neglected and externalized in the cost of industrial chocolate products, rather than for the sake of individual gain and profit.
All right.
I don't want to rain on the parade.
I'm just saying that what if you don't care about that?
You just want good chocolate.
And again, I respect that right there.
You just want good chocolate.
Yes.
It's a business too.
You got to make money.
How is the business doing?
We're doing great.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
We've been over more than doubling in size since we started.
We only sell at farmers markets in the local tri-state area, New York, New Jersey.
New Jersey and Connecticut? although we haven't yet entered into Connecticut, yes.
And we have our online store as well.
For folks like that you mentioned and that's a majority of our customers, I would say, who are not necessarily interested to hear about this whole backstory.
They just wanna know, hey, does this taste good?
To that, we love embracing that community because that's what this is all about.
At the end of the day, it shouldn't matter where it's coming from.
All right, Kobe, tell us your question before we dive in.
My question is about work-life balance.
And I don't think I need more strategies for delegation or time management.
I've read, I listened to the podcasts, I have coaches and therapy and a support system.
I have the strategies, but I also care so deeply about my team and Slow Coco that I don't always want to turn it off.
I don't always want to step away, even as sometimes my health or my relationships get sidelined in the process.
So how do I practice personal sustainability when what I'm building feels like my life's work?
All right.
I'm glad you brought this question.
Okay.
John Zimmer, Slow Coco.
Kobe sounds like he's dealing with some of the things that you dealt with when you were running Lyft.
Yeah, totally.
I can relate.
But I think you know the way to frame it for yourself is maybe you can help more when you do take care of yourself.
And I think that I mean that is true.
If you are not taking care of yourself first, then all those people that you care about, I think, will be less cared for by you.
And so that is step one.
I remember one day my co-founder Logan and I were talking and I said, like the thing that works so well for me is when I work out before work.
But I just never, you know, the same kind of thing.
You feel like I just want to put in a little more work, or I just want to get right to the office, or we have coworkers that are already in and I want to be there for them.
And he was like, make it your priority.
Make it the first thing you do.
I don't want to see you until you've worked out.
And it was helpful for me.
It was almost like giving me permission which I didn't need in practice, but I think I needed in words.
And so I think you need to do the same thing.
If you really do care about those other people, then take care of yourself first.
Yeah.
Kobe, I'm curious, how many employees do you have right now, full-time employees?
We have three full-time.
That includes you?
That includes myself, correct?
Yep.
And that will also include our first non-contractor full-time employee starting next month.
And we have a total of 10, including the rest of our team.
And that's people who are working the farmer's markets and things like that.
So are you when you say you are just grinding all the time.
Are you like roasting the chocolate beans?
Tell me a little bit about what that means.
Yeah, this is where it gets tricky, because we've really invested in the systems that allow me to not be making chocolate primarily anymore.
So I'm involved in quality control, recipe development and sales, which is what I love doing being out at the farmer's market, connecting with folks.
At the same time, it's only highlighted the problem even more so, which is the system might be there to allow me to step away, but part of me maybe, as an entrepreneur, believes I can have it all, that I can step away.
That my relationships can be there to support me, even as I am always just thinking about it.
This is just the air that I breathe.
And I love that about me and about the business, that it's around me and always percolating.
And I think those closest to me appreciate that too.
But there is dissonance that I'm not always so self-aware about in practice.
John, you know, this reminds me of something.
I'm going to remind you of a conversation we had a few years ago.
But, Kobe, I mean, you – have to believe that your business is better when you are better.
Once you accept and understand that, then you can start to figure out the logistics, like the actual tactics that you have to do.
And the reason why I say I alluded to something that a conversation John and I had years ago is because I think this is a simple hack that has really helped me.
You have to decide that you are going to do the things you need to do every day to enable you to function well.
And one of the things I made a decision to do was to – brick my phone.
And I know many years ago, John, you invested in the light phone, that phone, and I have one.
It's a phone that's not really, it doesn't allow you to get distracted.
It just makes calls and right.
I didn't end up using it that much, but I brick my, I have a device called a brick.
It's literally, it's a magnet on my fridge.
And I swipe my phone over and it locks out everything on my phone.
I can pick up to, I think, 20 apps and really 20 apps is nothing.
If you think about it, it's like weather or the maps app.
Like it's very, so I can't, Check email.
I can't do anything until I work out and I, you know, have some sunshine and then I start my day.
And there are some, you know, maybe there are some days where people are like, where were you?
Where are you?
But I have to do it.
And at the end of the day, I'm much better.
I perform and operate much better, right?
Is there like a version of that that you do, John?
Yeah, yeah.
First step is take the phone out of your bedroom if it's still there.
Yes.
I just have a rule.
I got an alarm clock.
It's like a shockingly obvious thing.
Yeah.
But a lot of people, I'm reminded...
Because I did that many years ago.
Like when people say yeah, you know, at first I got to get an alarm clock.
And it's like, okay, that's step one.
No cell phones in the bedroom.
Sleep is so critical.
And it's tempting when it's there and you get an alert or whatever.
So my path was alarm clock to brick and now Light Phone 3, the third device I'm using.
It's my only phone that has a SIM card. wow, you don't have a smartphone at all.
I do have my iPhone that I took the SIM card out of because I was in Europe at the time, and they have removable SIM cards, which was helpful.
Yeah.
And I tether from the light phone to the iPhone if there's an app or function that I need.
But I can easily just walk out of the house with only my light phone.
Yeah, it's great.
So I think that's just a simple hack.
And I don't know if you have your phone in your room when you go to sleep or or if it's the first thing you check.
Is it the first thing you check in the morning?
Some days it is only because I have to wake up so early for the farmer's markets on the weekend that that blue light actually can help knock me out of it a little sleep inertia.
But on those off days I definitely try to sleep in and make sure there's time away from the screen before starting my day.
Coby, what do you want this business to be?
I mean, because you can go in a number of different directions and there's no bad answer, right?
Like you can have an incredible lifestyle and this can be a million dollar a year business and you could have a few employees and have an incredible –.
You know, you've got the farmers markets going, you got your DTC.
And that could be a great or or do you want it to be a 10 or 15 or $50 million business or more?
It's not the number so much, or the size as the impact that for me, I know that's an easy word to throw around.
I wanna build something that eventually I can sell to its employees, that I want the workers to own, that I want to be able to exist for generations, that touches folks' lives across continents, all stakeholders in the entire value supply chain.
And to me, that does entail some scale.
From studying other worker-owned co-ops, there does need to be some scale element to that for sure.
So I think that is definitely part of the drive that I'm testing the limits of.
I have some thoughts on that, but I want to bring in John.
I think scale really matters.
You know, you're very purpose-driven.
Well, the bigger it is, the more purpose there is to go around.
And so for me, we're looking at capitalism.
As you know, if we apply it to the right things and it looks like the way you're doing, it can be very helpful to many people and give delight in the product.
Then I think you know, depending on what's right for you, bigger is better.
In this case because of the purpose.
Yeah, I am a big supporter of capitalism.
This show supports capitalism because I think it is the least of the worst options out there.
I think it does lift people out of power.
It does a lot of good and bad, yes.
But I think in general and balance, it's a better than worse system.
Here's the thing I would say.
Sounds like you want to build something with purpose, right?
You're motivated by purpose.
And you talked about one day maybe trying to sell this to your employees.
Well, why don't you start now?
I mean, you can build an ESOP, right?
An employee... ownership plan into your business now.
You can start to create that mechanism now.
You can start to give shares to your two employees now.
And, I mean, New Belgium did this at the beginning.
New Belgium, you know, that makes fat tire beer and eventually became 100 percent employee owned.
Bob's Red Mill, you know, 100 percent employee owned.
Cliff bar, I think it was 40% employee owned.
A lot of these brands built that into their company when they were, just like you know, a 500000 company, when they were doing like peanuts compared to what what they eventually became.
So it seems to me like it's.
The issue isn't?
I mean, it sounds like there's definitely some burnout, but when you're building something with purpose, then you also have other people who are stakeholders, who are also owners, who then take on some of those burdens and some of those stresses and pressures.
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, and I love those episodes that you've done with those brands you named.
I would love to start it today, and you're right to ask why not.
I'm also wary of passing on risk prematurely to folks who have not necessarily consented or opted into that, when they were looking for a steady job and something that they can feel good about and go home and turn off in ways that I haven't yet figured out for myself.
I agree with Guy.
Capitalism is the best system we have.
Ownership is a great idea.
You can start it now.
You know, if you're too worried about them taking on some of the stress you have, then they don't get to maybe ride in that upside.
And so obviously they can't put in their own capital or a lot of their own capital.
We did something at IPO.
We recreated a system for drivers to get equity.
I think it's a really, really important thing to look at based on your purpose and mission.
That makes sense.
Yeah, we do offer a profit share on a quarterly basis.
So especially for folks that are selling at farmers markets.
So any profit from their sales, we deliver a percentage of that back to them on a quarterly basis.
And that at least protects them from the downside, while guaranteeing that our growth is tied in with their success as well.
That's great.
Well, the best thing you could do – again, Kobe, you run your business as you want to run it.
I think the best thing you could do is to make a profitable business that's ethical and a business that employs people and allows people to pay for college and for mortgages.
That is the best possible thing. an entrepreneur can do, right?
John, how many.
I can't even imagine how many college tuitions and mortgages were paid because of Lyft.
Yeah, there were, I think it was when I was leaving, like 3% of the US workforce had earned on Lyft.
And when I was having those hard days just reading those stories of that kind of thing.
Someone being able to pay for college is super motivating.
So yeah, let that be your fuel.
Let it be your fuel.
Kobe Goodwin, the brand is called Slow Coco.
Thanks for calling in, man.
Good luck.
Thank you both.
This is huge, huge insights.
I appreciate it.
Nice to meet you.
So, John, I have asked every founder who comes on the show a version of the same question.
We've talked a little bit about this already, but I'm curious.
Right.
Which would make the journey less meaningful, probably.
But if you did go back in time and say, hey, John, I know this stuff.
I'm going to tell you something that's going to help you.
Is there something you would tell him back then?
Yeah, just, you know, I don't live with a lot of regrets.
And maybe it's an entrepreneur thing.
I just like to keep going and learning.
But like, enjoy, it's so cliche, but enjoy the journey.
I mean.
All those hard times and they were very hard have, you know, made me a better entrepreneur, a better parent, a better husband and a more empathetic human?
And so there's value in it all.
One of my friends early on said something like that to me.
He said don't forget that this is not just about Whatever you define as success.
This is about learning.
And it really, I would go back to that, even though it's such a simple thing.
It was, I, it helped.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
John, thanks so much for coming back on the show, man.
Thank you.
It's always fun.
That's John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft.
And by the way, if you haven't heard the Lyft episode, go back and check it out.
It's an awesome story.
And here's one of my favorite moments from that episode.
One of the kind of funny things we had to figure out was how to quickly market to the college campus.
And so one of our early purchases was a frog and beaver costume that we put on.
I went to Cornell.
I was actually going to Cornell on a recruiting trip for Lehman.
And I was standing on the quad in this ridiculous costume handing out cards about this carpooling service.
Is this a frog costume or the beaver costume?
I was the beaver.
You were the beaver, okay.
And at that next day at the Lehman recruiting event, a girl came up to me and said...
Did I see you in a beaver costume yesterday?
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter.
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This episode was produced by Chris Messini with music composed by Ramtin Arablui.
It was edited by Andrea Bruce.
Our audio engineer was James Willits.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Catherine Seifer, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Noor Gill Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
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