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Saying no can be very empowering because it asserts what we want or what we don't want.
But saying no can also help us better understand ourselves, our values, our personal
policies, and our rules.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School
of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I'm really excited to speak with Vanessa Patrick.
Vanessa is Associate Dean of Research and Professor of Marketing at the Bauer College of
Business at the University of Houston.
Her research focuses on the pursuit of pleasure and how we can avoid the lure of pleasure.
Vanessa recently released a new book entitled The Power of Saying No, The New Science of
How to Say No that puts you in charge of your life.
Welcome Vanessa, so excited to have you here and to have our conversation.
Thanks Matt, I'm delighted to be here and super excited to share insights in my book.
Well let's get started.
On this podcast we've done a few episodes where we have explored improvisation and communication.
As you and our listeners know, perhaps the most important and famous rule in improvisation
is to say yes and yet you've written a book all about saying no.
Can you share the importance of saying no and what it can do for us?
Absolutely.
It is, I believe, very, very important for all of us to say no to the things that get
in the way of us living our best possible life.
I think it is important for us to recognize the trade-offs that we have to make every
time we make a decision.
When we say yes to something, we are saying no to something else.
The way I see it is in some situations we want to grow the conversation and engage in
a constructive dialogue with the other person.
For example, when we are brainstorming or when we are conducting some sort of idea generation
at work or even when we are talking to our kids, in those situations we want to use the
improv rule, the yes and rule.
In other situations where we want to say no, we are better off keeping it very short and
very concise.
In those situations we do not want to be neighbor with a conversation.
We want to convey our stance and we want to communicate that stance effectively.
It sounds like we need to just be balanced in our approach.
There are times where yes and really can help us and then there are times where being
very definitive and certain in saying no can help us as well.
Isn't it true that at times saying no can have negative results, doing so can damage
existing relationships, prevent new ones from developing and have lasting consequences?
Are there ways to say no that avoid these negative consequences?
The simple, too little word no is really daunting for a lot of people for the reasons that
you outline.
People are super anxious about saying no because they are concerned about damaging relationships
with the ask and harming their own reputation.
The solution I also in my book is Empowered Refusal.
I coined this term of Empowered Refusal to describe a way of saying no that stems from
your identity and gives voice to your values, priorities, preferences and beliefs.
When we say an empowered no, I know is about us, not a rejection of the other person.
So for example, in our research we recommend that we use empowered language that implicates
our identity like using the words I don't.
When you say I don't eat chocolate cake or I don't take phone calls between 6 and 8 in
the evening because that's family time, it comes across as much more empowered.
It's easier to say no and you're more persuasive.
In contrast, using the disempowered I can't, I can't eat chocolate cake, I can't take
a call between 6 and 8 in the evening.
It almost begs the question why and invites pushback from the asko.
And this might result in you saying yes when you actually want to say no.
I find this notion of empowered refusal really interesting because it's one vehicle
through which we can claim and publicly state our values and I appreciate you giving
some very specific guidance in terms of word choice.
So don't is different than can't and that helps us be definitive, helps us set clear
boundaries and reduces the likelihood of pushback.
So that's very useful.
You've shared some ideas about verbal things we can say to be empowered in our saying no.
Are there nonverbal components as well things we do with our body and voice that can
also help us say no?
Effective communication of course is the information that we convey using both our words which
is the content of the communication as well as our nonverbal cues, the manner and the
style in which we speak.
So of course we talked about empowered language just a minute ago where we talked about using
what I call in the book standing upwards.
Words like I don't, I never, I always.
Which conveying conviction and determination but when you couple those words with an empowered
stance, your body language also needs to convey that level of empowerment.
In fact, it's very hard to say I don't each other and come across as disempowered in your
body language.
Another effective way to communicate a refusal while maintaining the relationship with the
ASCO is to use positive body language cues to secure that relationship with a genuine
smile or leaning forward or a kind gesture.
So why your words are communicating that hey, I'm saying no to you.
It is not a rejection of the other person but just giving voice to what you believe and
what you care.
I really think that distinction you just made it is very important saying no does not
mean you're rejecting another person saying no means you're standing up for something that
you believe in and having congruent nonverbal behaviors help support the relational message
while also explaining or demonstrating the value message.
Things like being big in body posture, being open, making good eye contacts, smiling, all
of that can be helpful.
And we need to be mindful both of the words we use and the way we say them.
So thank you for that reminder and for the clear examples.
Your book not only makes the case for empowered refusal but you also provide a tool kit to help
us develop and hone this skill.
Can you define the competencies that make up your art ART framework?
Yes, I outlined three competencies for the art of empowered refusal.
It stands for awareness, rules, not decisions and totality of self.
I propose that the first competency that we need to invest in if we want to become more
effective in saying no is deepen self awareness.
To invest in self awareness helps us shift between the good for me activities and the
not good for me activities and helps us decide what to say yes to and what to say no to
me.
The second competency is to make rules not decisions based on that self knowledge.
So once we have the self knowledge and can identify what we care about, what we believe
in, what we stand for, it helps us to make simple rules that guide our actions and decisions.
When we lean on what I call personal policies that we can establish to communicate our
own or response, we move from being razzled and frustrated when someone makes an ask
of us to being much more calm and choosy and empowered.
And we come across with much more conviction and determination.
We recently had an episode where we talked about creating your own personal manifesto
in a lot of the key points there were to find your values and what you stand for.
And I hear the first step of the first competency that you advocate for is doing something
very similar.
I'm curious about these personal policies that you talk about because I think it's one
thing to understand your values.
It's another thing to set up rules and policies that help you live those values.
Can you share with me an example perhaps of a rule or a policy that you use in your
life or you've seen others use?
Absolutely.
So a personal policies are these simple rules that give voice to your values and priorities
and preferences and beliefs.
So for example, a personal policy would be every time I take my first sip of coffee in
the morning, I just stop and I'm grateful for the day.
It's a small meditative moment that I have just incorporated into my daily life to just
be grateful for everything good that's happening.
And that's a ritual so I divide personal policies into different types, but this is a ritual.
You could also have decision.
So I have a firm decision rule that I do not take red eyes lights.
I do not function very well the next one.
I take a red eyes light because I don't sleep very well on claims.
And so having a personal policy in place which says I don't take red eyes lights really
helps make a decision about when to take a flight.
So these are shortcuts that we can put in place that just ease the way we make our decisions
but also lead us to be happier and enhanced well-being in the long run.
I can see how these would help reinforce the ability or make it easier actually to say
no.
When you have these rules in place, you've thought about them.
You understand why they exist because they're an alignment with your values.
So when one of these situations comes up where in essence you're being tested or challenged,
you say no just because I have that rule.
So for example, in working with my children, I have a rule.
You don't drive the car after a certain time of day even if you ask.
And so it's helpful to make it easier for you.
I appreciate that.
And I definitely have spent some time creating my own personal manifesto thinking about
my values.
I think I need to take the next step as you've advocated to find those policies and practices
that follow from that.
So thank you.
So you know Vanessa, I find this notion of personal policies and rules really fascinating,
especially since they come from the values that we've thought through.
Do you have any further advice or guidance on these personal policies?
So personal policies are different for boundaries and it's really important to make that distinction
because boundaries are like the barbed wire that we put up to protect our sounds from
outside forces invading on our territory.
Personal policies are different because what personal policies are.
These pretty red ropes which are actually called stanchions that you see in the Trader
Joes or in a movie theater that you set up for yourself that helped guide your decisions
and actions in the way that you want to go and that I aligned with your values and priorities.
And I think that this very powerful to re-frame what we care about and what we want in terms
of personal policies instead of boundaries, then we become much less reactive and much
more true to our own self.
One of the things I'm taking away from that and the visualization is really powerful.
There's nice red ropes that guide people in a certain direction versus the barbed wire
fences.
And in a boundary sounds defensive whereas these policies sound more forward thinking
in momentum-based.
So very helpful.
Thank you.
So let's imagine that I've mastered the art of saying no.
I feel empowered in the refusals that I do.
What advice do you have for managing the potential pushback or ostracizing that might result?
So when my children want to drive the car after the rule that I have, how do I deal with
that pushback?
I think the beauty of empowered refusal is that because it is based on your identity,
it's easier to withstand that external pressure and stay steadfast and strong.
Now unfortunately we will come across people who will not take no for an answer.
And we have to deal with those pushy-ass cuts.
And so in the book I talk about a bunch of strategies that you can deal with pushy-ass
guys.
What that I think is pretty handy is to use technology as a buffer.
So for example, research shows that we are 33 times more likely to say yes to a face-to-face
request.
So if you are getting pushback from a pushy-ass cut and a face-to-face request, you
might choose to convert that conversation to digitally mediated conversation.
Sending no by email is much easier than repeating your no face-to-face.
Sometimes on a text is an emoji with a thumbs-down sign and that communicates on no more than
words can.
And so I think that leaning on technology to help us, you know, reinforce our position
and say no, can you do something interesting and important?
I'm shocked by that statistic.
I know personally for me it's definitely hard when the person is standing right across
from me, but 33 times is a lot.
And I think your idea of putting some distance between you, maybe through technology, etc.,
can really reduce that.
I certainly feel more comfortable with a refusal that is virtual than one that is in
person.
So I appreciate that advice.
So I want to get very personal here.
Your model helps us say no to others, but does it help say no to ourselves?
For example, you've talked about having a no-rule to chocolate cake.
I struggled with a no-rule to chocolate chip cookies or wanting to listen to one more
podcast episode.
Are there ways that we can help say no to ourselves?
Yes, absolutely.
In a research study that I published in the Journal of Consumer Research with my co-author,
Henry Caggbert, we study how empowered refusal can be used as an effective way to self-regulate.
So in a similar way that I don't work in communicating and effective no to others,
it also works as effective self-talk.
By implicating our identity, we hear ourselves feeling that we believe in certain things
and when we hear ourselves talking with empowerment, we buy into that and are more likely to resist
temptations like chocolate cake, chocolate cookies, or that one extra podcast.
So the self-talk we have allows us to reinforce and reaffirm our values and beliefs and can
lead us to therefore be stronger in tempting situations.
Very interesting.
I'd absolutely need to practice that.
My waistline will benefit from it and my sleep as well.
You talked a little bit about your research.
So I'd like to change the subject.
In a while back, you and a few of your colleagues did some research on how to transition from strategy
forming to strategy implementing.
And one of the topics that people are really interested on this podcast is about strategy.
How do we formulate strategy and then how do we execute on strategy?
So I'm curious, what did your research suggest and what role does communication play in going
from formation to implementing?
That's a great question.
There is a huge body of research as you know that talks about the difficulty that teams
have with the transition from planning to implementation and the implementation failures
that result.
Another research however focuses on how to best navigate the transition between strategy
and implementation.
So our research helps identify a set of six leadership nudges that aid in crossing the
scouser.
We base our research on the idea that planning is inherently more pleasurable than implementation.
And so we identify two broad sets of nudges.
The first set of nudges are nudges that improve our will path to be able to transition from
planning to implementation.
And the second are the decrease in the desire to continue planning and create excitement
instead on implementation.
Now throughout the paper, we talked about the importance of communication being able
to use these insights to be able to get people in their teams to shift from the planning
board to the implementation more.
One of the ways in which you can do this is to be able to figure out how to convert your
vision to your action with your teams and to do that by creating these very strong and
compelling outcomes.
And so focusing on using communication to focus on outcomes helps speaker people switch
gears and helps them move from a planning board to an implementation.
The other thing that is really exciting and which I also talk about in the book is the
switch from using verbs to nouns.
So there's research that shows that when you ask voters to vote and you give them a badge
which says I am a vote us which basically talks about your identity and who you are and
talk about you in terms of using nouns you're more likely to vote.
However, if you give that same badge to people with the words I vote to, I voted.
It focuses on a verb and it's less likely to result in action.
So many things there to unpack. So first we need to nudge people out of their planning
mindset and get them into an execution mindset and it sounds like we can do that in many
ways including getting them excited about very specific outcomes.
The language we use and we talked about this which owner burger this notion of turning
verbs into nouns so instead of voting we are a voter and that can help.
And helping people understand that their actions can help achieve these outcomes can motivate
people in that direction.
Very very important.
A lot of people spend a lot of time planning and not really planning to execute on the
strategy so that's very helpful.
So before we end I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone who joins
me.
Absolutely.
Alright so question number one.
If you would have captured the best communication advice you ever received as a five to seven
word presentation slide title what would it be?
Leave a place better than you found.
I believe my mother has told me that for years and years.
Tell me more why is that important for you?
I think that statement embody so much as it comes to communications that you enter
a communication with positivity and with the willingness to share and to be true to
yourself but also to create value for the listener.
And so when you engage fully with your whole selves and you appeal to both the heart and
the mind of the listener you do lead a place better than you found it.
I love it and I love it because of everything you said but also because it forces you to
think about what it is you're doing and saying.
And it helps you to see that you need to be audience centric and focus to help make
it a better outcome, a better environment.
As a result of your communication many of us can become very self focused and focus on
our message and not so much the outcome of that message.
Good advice I like that.
Question number two.
Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
To admire many many communicators but one that I deeply admire for more recent times is
a woman called Melody Hobson.
Melody is the president and co-CEO of aerial investments which is a black-owned mutual
fund and investment management firm.
Melody was named by magazines 100 most influential people in the world and it not only does
content matter and she speaks on really important topics on financial decision making, financial
literacy and financial inclusion but she does so in a way that is so powerful and so passionate
and so memorable.
She speaks to your head because she's talking about really really important financial information
but she does so with stories and with really heartfelt emotions and strong belief that
makes it an amazing communication experience.
Wow.
I'm definitely going to listen in on some of her communication.
It sounds like one of the things that really drives and motivates you to listen to her
is her ability to connect through story and communicate complex financial information.
Final question, question number three.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
As a marketing professor I do think about this quite a bit and I think that there are
three main things that I would find out.
One is authenticity and trustworthiness.
Second is the ability to communicate or appeal to both the head and the heart.
I think that effective communication is a combination of both rational elements as well
as emotional elements and the third is to really focus on the listener to create value
in your communication such that you have left the dialogue better than you found it.
I'm going to cheat on say one more which is admire because I think by smiling when you
communicate not only do you look warm and caring and engaged but you even sound that way
which I think is super important in oral communication.
I like that your three ingredients combine both how we say something through our smile.
It has us thinking about our audience but it also has us thinking about our content
both the rational and the emotional components to build that authenticity and trust that you
speak about.
Those ingredients are going to combine certainly to an effective communication recipe.
Vanessa this has been fantastic.
Thank you.
I have no regrets about our conversation about saying no and it really helped me to think
through my own personal priorities that I have in personal policy so I appreciate that.
Thank you for being here and I wish you great success with your new book the power of
saying no the new science of how to say no that puts you in charge of your life.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mad.
It was my pleasure.
Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast from
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos and me, Mad Abrahams.
Our music was provided by Floyd Wander.
For more information and episodes, find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
Thank you and please make sure to subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn.
Bye.
