What does don't half -ass it mean to you?
If you're gonna do it Do it Say what you can do Do what you say if you can't do it.
Don't say you can do it.
Don't over leverage yourself Don't over leverage a decision and then jump in and kind of dip a toe.
I think I'll try it out No, think if you're gonna try it out beforehand, but when it's time to go dive Finish it find out Come out the other side.
Don't leave it and go If I just forward it uh -huh that keeps me up at night I think it keeps a lot of us up at night when you half -ass something You just don't know whether you failed or succeeded got what you want or didn't get what you want finding out and looking in the mirror and going I Didn't
have acid I went all the way I found out and that ain't for me or I found out and you damn Right, that is for me.
That's a great place to get to but the flimbo of not knowing if you half -ass something The limbo of going I hedged my bat What could have happened?
You don't know Were you surprised when your dad said that to you?
Yeah when you were gonna take a pivot in yeah life trajectory I Wouldn't been in the top 100 things.
I thought he would have said I was fully stabilizing in that moment as I said I called Tuesday night Seven o 'clock.
He'll have had a beer.
He's already had dinner not Monday because that's the first day of the workweek He'll be a little more stressed catching it Tuesday when I could unload this that I don't want to go to law school want to go to film school and I really thought he was gonna go you want to do what?
Again, the family I grew up in the idea of good me thinking that the idea of going into film it's like very Saturday idea a hobby Idea not a job and when I shared it with him The pause that he took You know another bead of sweat started on my back of my neck before he goes well Don't have fasten now.
I will say this though I do know now and I didn't know what then I've realized it in the last 10 years The way that I asked him it's part of the reason he gave me that answer.
I really wasn't asking him I Called him as the dad What do you got my command said I?
Don't want to go to law school anymore.
I want to go to film school.
I didn't go I Don't I don't I don't I'm not feeling not I'm not sure about law school I think I want to I mean I think I may want to go to if I just stuttered into that I think he would have again heard me half -assing I was what I wanted and gone in the process of being told to not half -asset You didn't
half -asset the way I asked the aced and he heard my own conviction And I think what he had in that moment was what I think every parent wants to hope to have with their kids Is that you know we raise our kids to go in a structured form follow this and you can get?
Most of what you want in life, but what and that can work, but what do we really want our kids to do?
We want them to follow that and then bust out of it one day and not even ask our permission, and that's when we're going That's my boy.
That's my girl. That's my child.
We wanted to break out and I think what he heard then was I was breaking out Without really asking his permission, and I was clear I spoke up and stutter my voice was out of my throat a little bit And I think that was part of why in that moment he gave me the answer don't half -ass do you think that?
Sentiment carried forward into how you got the role for days and confused that I'm going to continue to lean in I'm on the front Foot and 10 toes down Yes, now how much That direct sentiment from that night when he told me don't have fast it had to do with that I mean Yeah, I did have something to do
it look when he said don't half -ass it He was and I talked about this in the book.
He wasn't only give me permission.
He was giving me a responsibility He was going.
I Knew I knew I was I had his word With me in my future decisions.
I was making them for more than myself I had I wanted to fail less because I didn't want to embarrass him and That was extra motivation extra strength extra courage extra sobriety extra like well Let's find out go for it man Go for it carried on into other stories of other job time to kill with Joe
Schumacher going I want the lead That's me going I want to find out and dad told me not a half -ass it back there a few years ago You know so if I don't go for it if I embarrass myself, I'm embarrassing him so that was also Some incentive and some weight behind those moves that I made some of them.
Are you a brave person in that way?
Do you think? Um, I Don't know people say that I'd I don't think I'd take enough risk.
I'm told that people that whose opinion I admire So think that that's my greatest asset that I take the risk I'll take and the bravery I'll take with them You still have a hunger for mole?
I? Think I'm a still chicken shit.
I Mean not overall, but I think there's many things that I'm Not fully asking.
I think there's many things that I'm still could take further that there's still many things that More risk I could take and more bravery I could have Yeah Could you tell that story the days and confused story of of leaning in of taking that?
Risk. Yeah So I mean the initial one started when I went to on a Thursday night went to my favorite bar at the top of the Hyatt because I knew the bartender.
He was a film school of me.
He'd give me free vodka and tonic So I went there I get there that night He brings me and my girlfriend vodka and tonic told me hey, there's a guy at the end of the bar producing a movie Let me introduce you to him.
I walk over introduce him to four hours later that man Don Phillips Legendary casting director who was actually a producer on days to confuse We get kicked out of that bar I've had as many vodka and tonics as he had since I sat down So I'm not leaving easily either and I'm standing up for my new friend
who we hadn't done anything to get kicked out of bar Really had and we were just kind of standing on top of the tables imitating some golf shots We'd played on similar courses in the past so we get not so Not so politely escorted out and he's in a cab or win a cab He's riding with me to my apartment
gonna drop me off before he heads back to his hotel He pulls out a joint Or I pulled out a joint Start smoking he goes hey you ever done any acting I said Man, I was in it.
You know, Trisha year wood video for a second kind of more of a modeling job I was in a middle light commercial for about that long.
I got enough to call it acting as well you might Come to this address tomorrow morning 930.
You might be right for this parts It's character called Wooderson this movie days confused.
I think you might be right for the part This is three something in the morning So 930 came really quickly and I was on time probably five minutes early and we were already pretty tuned at this time Now mind you I get there there.
I walk in they go Matthew.
I go. Yes. They go Don let the script for you I open it up.
It's signed by him.
Hey, here's the part Wooderson I got three scenes in there three lines there all mark check them out.
I think you might be right for good luck Let me know we'll call you in for an audition.
I Go away. I go look at this These three lines one of them was what I like to call these eight a launch pad line which is a line that sometimes I'll have in a script where If that character means that line and that character is not playing that line is an attitude and or a wink or a joke If that character
means that line it can tell you could write a book on it You could write a book based on that reality and that line and days confused from the character Wooderson was a line when he's leaning against the wall outside the pool hall high school girls walk by he checks one of his Backs as they go behind
his buddy says what is she you got to cut that out, man You're gonna end up in jail and whaterson says no, man That's what I love about those high school girls, man.
I get older. They say the same age That line I went who is that?
There's a book on somebody if that's not trying to be cute If that guy's not trying to say something coy and clever if he believes I've got life figured out man This is my nor star.
So that line informed who the character was I go I Read for it.
I remember the first time I got called back because they said the sound was bad and now I come back I don't know if the sound was bad or the fact that I just need to come back was she used to come back and Read for Richard Link later the director who I did read for and I got the part now the role was also based
on as I wrote about in the book who I thought my brother was when I was 11 my 17 year old brother was already my hero He was cooler than James Dean and we had one day where his car was broke down and my mom when I was supposed to pick Them up from school and he wasn't where he was supposed to be.
We're looking for him I'm looking at the back of our station wagon and there I see this silhouette This guy leaning against a brick wall Left boot heel against the brick wall lean him back lazy Sig in the right hand smoking and it was my brother and in that silhouette.
He was 13 feet tall Coolest dude in the world and just as I went to go wait, there's pie I Remembered always gonna get big trouble for smoking.
So I won't say it's in my mom goes who I go nothing But that image in my 11 year old eyes were that was Wooderson So we get to the set one night and I just go in for what's supposed to be a makeup wardrobe test meaning put on makeup Put on wardrobe When the director link letter can leave the set and gets
a minute He comes checks you out eyeballs gives a few notes and you say goodbye.
I'll see you when I come back for work Well on this night I come out of the trailer link letter shows up has a look as he's walking up his hands God he's just going yeah.
Yeah Wooderson like peach pants Is that a nudes teach?
I like that. What's that over there that tattoo?
That's a Black Panther tattoo?
Yeah Look at the hair of the comb over.
I like it. I like it Is it cool about say goodbye?
I think he goes say man.
He goes, uh you think you know Wooderson's been with the typical hot chicks in school the cheerleaders and stuff I'm like, yeah, because you think Wooderson would be interested in the redheaded intellectual I'm like, yeah, man.
What are some of those all types chicks?
He goes. Well, listen, the actress Marisa, obesity is over here in her car She's got her nerd friends in the back.
It's the last day of school.
You think maybe I'm gonna pull up and try and pick her up.
I'm like, yeah He goes, okay.
You can do it now. I said Give me 30 minutes.
I took a walk Now I'm about to be in my first scene.
There's nothing written.
I've not done this before but I'm going over Scenarios.
Where are we last day of school?
I got some change in my pocket.
I'm working with the city sure Right now next one.
We're gonna go out.
I'd probably speak a little Spanish pop up Next thing I know I'm in the car getting a lavalier Mike put on me I'm getting a little anxious but I'm going who is my man.
Who is Wooderson? What do I love?
What do I love what I love as this Mike's getting put on me?
I'm like I love My car so bam.
I mean my 70s Chevelle right now.
There's one thing I got going for me I said I I love rock and roll man.
I said shit, man I got Ted news a stranglehold rocking in the a -track.
There's two I said I love getting high I said well man Slater's riding shotgun.
He's always got a doobie rolled up There's three and that's when I heard action and as I looked up Dropped it into drive Thought of the three things I had while I was going to get the fourth and I said to myself and I love picking up chicks In drive pull out three affirmations of the three things I
did have on the way to get the fourth All right.
All right. All right Pull in have the scene try and pick her up ditch the geeks in the back gonna be a you know Fiest in the making whatever it was kind of spoke a little spangless blah blah blah blah and all of a sudden It was over and a lot of people laughing and Rick comes up goes.
Oh, that's great. That's great I'll try one more time do this that did the scene to maybe two times three times I don't remember and Finish it I get out people are laughing.
I just had fun I think we're Cochran and they're in their seats in the Rory Cochran the actor who played slaters and the shotgun seat giggling.
I was like he's like that was good man That's good.
I'm like cool and all of a sudden I'm about to leave and Rick invites me back the next night I've got put in some other scene.
Anyway, he invited me back every night for three weeks and I worked three weeks Now what I found out two years ago was Rick also asked me that night on the sidewalk Hey You'd think he'd be interested read it at an intellectual girl is because Rick had a he had just noticed that night that they had a story
hole they didn't know What car they were gonna go I think pick up the Aerosmith tickets in and who and who else had a car Pickford had a car and I was the only one who had a car and had a little a guy who had a job and he was trying to Start to fill a story hole.
He didn't tell me this till like a year ago And that's why he invited me into that first scene at the top -notch barbecue where I said those three words Which were the first words I sell on screen, which were the three affirmations of the three things my guy did have and I think they came from not intentionally,
but leading up to that roll I was listening to a lot of Doors and there's a live track of a morse and at some doors concert I don't know where I think he's in Europe somewhere where he barks out.
All right. All right.
All right. All right Very aggressively not Wooderson style but like four or five.
All right. All right.
All right All right, and somehow that pop I had no plans but I popped them ahead in that moment As being and let me take that version just give three of them for the three things I've got for myself, but in a more laid back.
Cool way All right.
All right. All right pulled up How did it feel to have that?
Positive reinforcement so quickly out of nowhere both privately and then publicly after well, I Mean it felt fun in the moment.
It felt good and then it became public right there with the crew in the cast Now publicly became a year and a half later, I mean look privately on that I remember Going that was so much fun I think I think I think I was good at it people tell me I'm good at I'm getting invited back and Then the other
thing was I'm getting scale.
I'm getting 330 bucks a day and I'm working a job at catfish station weight tables and the most I've made there in one night is $73 and now I'm getting 340 or whatever it was for doing this.
I Was honestly, I remember going this is illegal Is this real?
What am I getting away with here man?
Yes, I'll come back for the pay and because I'm because it's so much fun and Then I think you've probably known the story five days in my dad moved on Rick and I were just talking about this the other day cuz his father just moved on a few days ago We're talking about yesterday.
I Went home came back to work Still had going through morning with my dad But had that had that sobriety that comes when you lose a loved one to death?
You talk about sobering up in courage of the world even more than my dad Tell me don't have as it him passing gave me some real courage man I mean of looking at the world straight at straight in the eye and not being intimidated by mortal shit anymore And so it really helped me stay and focus on the role
had a great time Probably a little quieter than I was in the first five days more to myself a little bit Rick and I because where Rick and I kind of became more friends than just director actor at that time because he was he was The person I was talking to about how it was feeling and how to deal with my
dad's death I finished that I go back to University of Texas Graduate film school on the way out already packed up at the U.
Hall get the Texas Chainsaw Massacre job for like five weeks Which is super fun?
Another under the table cash for play that part unloaded the air you haul and drove out to Hollywood and a year after that I would say When time to kills when all of a sudden I noticed oh wow I'm famous Life I've cast a new check that I didn't know about where I say the world become a mirror.
There was no more anonymity That's that was a whole new Drug I think one of the Themes of your worldview that I've become familiar with is alchemizing bad times into good ones A reminder that things that seem bad can end up being good and in retrospect.
I think it's Obvious and almost romantic to think about that alchemy in that way, but in the moment, yeah, it's basically impossible.
Yeah How can people?
Well, how do you have more of that perspective during a hard time?
Yeah Well look a couple things first off You know, I'm I probably start off intellectualizing something that I know I probably should believe in but don't believe in it and Convince myself even to an extent to trick myself that You Know sit here and go well you just tell yourself this too shall pass.
Okay great Well, what the hell's at me even if it's true in the moment You're like, what are you fucking talking about man?
I'm in the debit section.
I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm in a warning section I'm I'm it.
This this sucks. I Think that how much I'm conscious of it or not My undeniable optimism in faith that This is no it is and if it is So what?
That that's okay. Well then really so what you know, I mean, what's the big deal to?
It minimizes. I don't I seem to have a tendency not to make a bigger deal out of things that Other people make a bigger deal dramas.
I don't like to create false drama when it comes in a tart.
I am affected I I I I get the blues I get sad I get mad.
I'm a shit to be around.
I can't get to sleep I got demons in my own head trying to work trying to work the riddle out.
Why did this happen?
That's the other thing that's tough for me is I think that any bad thing that happens to me My initial reaction is what you do wrong to lead to this like in a relationship Camilla and I get an argument My mind immediately goes what you do in the last two weeks?
To let this get to a point where you just had to raise your voice or she had to raise your voice her voice you Evidently, usually there's some pieces cues that were not handled to get to that point So I like it when things are running like this the challenge when things are running great is we all tend
to think ah, ha This is it.
I've found it Bottle it if I if I realize this I can maintain this forever and the truth is bullshit No, we can't but we can minimize it There are habits that I notice of things I take care of in my life health wise faith wise father wise husband wise that I'm Know that if I'm doing that consistently
There's less valleys There's less Stress there's left warning signs.
There's left Problematic, oh shit How'd we get in this so there there's consistently behaviors that I know can I can act upon that have worked in the past We'll get back to talking to Matthew in one minute But first I need to tell you about Maui Nui not all meat is created equally and that is why I
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wisdom a check out I'm fascinated by People who take responsibility for things that aren't their responsibility We often get told pieces of advice in the modern world It might not be your fault But it is your responsibility and one of the ways to unburden yourself is to assume that everything is but there
is a cohort of people It's an arrogant.
No, it's an arrogant notion.
Yeah, look at how I if only yeah, I could have stepped in Yeah, you make yourself but also the first side.
I'm the reason that I stepped in shit, which is also an asset Even if someone go gee, why are you giving yourself so much credit for screwing that up?
Yeah, beautiful yeah, I mean look I think part of this for me comes from We didn't get in trouble my family for the bad deed we got in trouble for get caught So times where I can screw up and get away with it I Feel better than times that maybe I didn't screw up as bad but but got busted Because I got
caught because I got busted because I got myself in the pickle because things didn't go how I wanted it to go Or how I believed it could go Is there something that you tried to remember?
About the upside of a crisis during a crisis or do we just need to ride that out?
So I think that's a good question.
Yeah, right zooming out would be so beautiful and in retrospect if only you could give yourself the gift of Distance of time.
Yeah. Yeah, and yet, you know Something hard is going to come again, and you're going to be swept away by the wave.
I mean For me I think it's an obvious dance to the both because you can't jump to the objective right away and go inshallah Fatal have it this too shall pass.
I'm all I'm fine. No cuz then you don't deal with the the crisis I do have a good I do have a pretty quick threshold for being able to laugh like honestly start giggling when I'm in the shit Because I've found that I'm able to handle the shit better if I just start quicker I start going are you kidding
me and I will and I also my I'll get objective and remind myself things like You go and die mikana.
Hey which gives me that ah, so what this is not as big of a deal as I thought I also quickly somehow comes in my head Not right now, but one day this is gonna be a great fucking story I quickly go to that I'll get I'll project forward into those places that ease me a little bit And at least maybe look
at it with a good eye you're almost imagining being that future you laughing back at this present you Yeah, and I think that goes back to the the faith and belief that you know again I'm nervous for I'm gonna go speak or something.
I got a little thing in my wallet You're gonna die one day mikana, and I'm like oh That relaxes me if I'm going in you know Complacent I got another note or tell myself what you're about to say and do will outlive you so you better fucking do it Well you know to get me more on edge this balance is so fascinating
You know being able to thread that needle being able to find the golden mean as Aristotle talked about But yeah, I've heard you say that You should make a sense of humor your default emotion.
Yeah Link later and I came up with that in a conversation about 12 years ago Richard Link later and I was just talking about how mad and angry and upset and offended People get if they don't know how to react if they don't have an opinion on something I mean we're like yeah, man What if it would it
be wouldn't the world be a better place?
These are get along with everybody if the default emotion if you're not sure how to respond was it Okay, now most people think they go well, that's insensitive But that's it's not insensitive Usually think that means you're not given the crisis credit if you can laugh at it and I wholeheartedly disagree
Oh, there's some sort of tribute in Solemnity yeah that that that that you're not Core enough about it man, whatever that you know what I mean.
It's like oh, you're not taking seriously You're actually putting me down and and and just because you're saying you're not you don't feel victimized and you laugh this is right You're telling me making life in front of me being a victim.
No, no, no, no. I'm D.
I'm trying to deal Because especially when we talk about it.
It's inevitable too That's it.
I laugh a lot quicker when I know I'm in an inevitable pickle I have no other resource to get out of it that I know of So I'm gonna start giggling a little quicker.
So I keep my eyes open and figure my way maybe because Sometimes the hard work and the endurance and the elbow grease the work harder we were talking about that hustle is not the way out Sometimes it's I need to back up laugh have a sip of my favorite Whatever and dance my way through the raindrops
out of this some bitch.
Maybe it's not banging your head on the wall Maybe it's backing up.
It's in Oh I got a key in my pocket that unlocks the door.
I'm trying I've been bloody in my skull along over banging ain't begging into it I do wonder why I Like being serious and serious about the things I do I'm serious about this podcast as you might be able to tell by the fact We've renovated in Taiwan But there is Something that you can take that too
far the seriousness can become a kind of rigidity As opposed to being dynamically persistent, you know taking things too seriously not swaying in the breeze, right?
Presuming that you like the things you do and you want to keep doing them The less robust and flexible you are the more likely you are to break in those ways And I think that humor is a lovely bit of ballast that helps to balance that out.
I've I've a frame it this way Be very serious about since humor Be very serious about comedy.
I'm extremely serious about comedy and I I I You know, do I take myself seriously?
Yes But also takes this seriously the shit I don't do I want to know everything yet But I also take seriously shit I bet that I don't know and go be serious about that You don't know that be serious about that.
This is frickin funny or at least it's gonna be So I try to take the comedy seriously, so I think we can take sense of humor seriously We don't have to create a new category of going.
Oh, I need to be light -hearted or care more careless and carefree We can just care more maybe about the validity the right thing since a humor.
Yeah, you know instead of it being up a relief So let me let me let go the pressure here No, let me it's not it's almost like it's not it's not another bucket.
It's in the same bucket of commitment and persistence and endurance and Talking about that balance between Good times and bad times the lessons that we take from each heard a quote recently that said every man knows Reflection and introspection when he's at his lowest Bad times you can't do anything
other than wallow in retrospective assessment But one of my favorite things I've learned from you is when things are going well Given that that's Presumably what you want to have more of maybe worth deconstructing that yes, I Wish I could more and I think more of us could all Deconstruct our assets
and there's a new there's a we happiness you can't guarantee it But there is a science to satisfaction there you can look at habits that engineered less pain in your life may be more pleasure, but at least less pain and That's that's a win.
I I Try to deconstruct look I don't do I write it did I used to write as much?
Look at anybody who's ever kept a diary when what's the old sort of nostalgic idea of a diary you go there when you're in pain and you share thoughts that you don't want to share with anyone else of those reflection and I I did used for some reason.
I don't know why but would force myself to Write every day no matter how happy how happy I was and I didn't a lot of times want to go right when I was Happy because I was like no, I don't need to write it.
I don't need to become conscious of it.
I'm having too much fun It's getting away.
Come on. I'm doing it.
It's living. It's happening but And in writing green lights when I went back That's a lot of the consistencies that I found that I wrote when things were going well that I was taking some it for Some reason taking time to go Can I bought can I try and bottle Some science here to why things are going
well, and I did find consistencies Who I was hanging out with at night what I was drinking what bar I was at.
What food I was drinking how exercise preparation for work for school And I found things I was like you're really happy in this segment of your life.
Let's go back and look at what you were doing Oh, man, I had this I had augman Dino scrolls.
I was on him every day I had some discipline where I was checking in with myself.
Oh, you were going to church on Sundays You were you were giving you you were you were you were saying thank you.
God before you went to bed each night You were appreciating more you were pointing out you beautiful things and not taking them for granted Until I found a list of things I'm like and when I get off track I try to remind myself you've been slacking on some of those and I could pull it off I've evolved
I got different ways I get away with some now, but you know I've definitely found Consistencies and I think we all have them if we just notate them along the way that they're not by accident because we sure as hell deconstruct the reasons when we're in the funk and we don't believe they're by accident
we can take ourselves to behind the woodshed and show ourselves exactly why we're guilty for Every reasoning condemn ourselves for every damn reason we got to that spot Yeah, well let's we're gonna do that I just say let's Let's cheers let's have a tears on the way for all the things that are worked
for when we have shit going right also knowing that it's not Forever that it will we will have a mountain to climb here shortly.
Isn't it interesting so much of?
The content that people like to consume books podcast autobiographies memoirs is Deconstructing the success of others so we'll happily dissect success in other people right and yet only Dissect failure in us.
Yeah this odd asymmetry.
Yeah, well we bestow all of the glory right on those people Well done, and I must find out how to do it more even if it doesn't fit me Even if they're a different constitution different background different time For me or folks on the negatives right there's a really interesting Stat around the likelihood
of you ensuring that your dog completes a course of antibiotics is about 95 % The likelihood that you ensure that you'll keep complete a course of antibiotics.
It's about 50 % So we're prepared to look after an animal twice as well as ourselves.
I was a Rotten Note the other day man What does that say on the back of your phone?
Sticker Oh choose to shine very cool.
My daughter gave me that yeah I wrote the other day and then most of what I do is I use this notes app right and I did I wrote the other Day Where is it it was on that note?
I was like what what's what's my best advice I need to give myself right now is listen to my own damn advice It was followed that up with Where is it?
Yeah trying to live with less gravity and more backbone is a salty task What's that mean to you?
Kind of live lighter with less gravity live lighter not take certain things so seriously, but still Have the principal backbone because I'm getting older We get older and the black and whites turn to gray and then there's a great word compromise We all say which is such a material thing to do And then
all of a sudden we let things slide and then we start going well change will happen Hey changes inevitable let change that and I'm not ready.
That's part of getting old.
I think not just getting older Same with cynicism.
It's a disease of getting too old and I'm not ready to I Don't want to be ready to give up Certain things I'm going no, man the beauty of ignorance those things that we believed in I've got to believe so many things because of my ignorance I'd be dead 14 times in this life I would have been ignorant
of the situation I was in and so Yeah You know not not knowing or knowing what we know and it's a Hey Anyway, yeah, it's it's more backbone to hold on and be principled what I stand for what I stand against When it becomes easier and easier To just go with the flow and I'm not ready to go.
Let's just go with the flow I just want to I want to I don't want to pick the wrong battles I'm trying to be discerning and not picking the wrong fights because I like picking fights and going after challenges But I'm in a plank I'm kind of like man I it's tough duty to win the fair fights and there's
a lot of unfair fights out there And why do I want to spend my time if I got 25 hours a pick an unfair fights when I'm gonna bust in my ass To win the fair ones.
Well also picking fights with yourself, you know you hinted just there at the difficulty of a Negative in a voice, you know you take things seriously You care about what you're doing you want to achieve things in this world, which means that you need to have high standards You need to posit an ideal
But as soon as you posit an ideal You then begin to compare yourself to that ideal and often you find yourself lacking because it's a fucking ideal.
Yep. I Think it's why a lot of relationships don't work We make her Wonder Woman and she makes us Superman and neither one of us live up to it and that we've got that bulb That honeymoon bulb turned up to a hundred watts and honeymoon's over.
We're trying to deal with some real just some real based stuff Let's leave it 20 watts.
We're just lit, but we're not just feverishly, you know superhuman and I think a lot of us just Purport that on someone else and they can't live up to and it ends up not being fair to them And then they do the same to us and who both walk away going I under I underwhelmed Do you know the idea of the Michelangelo
effect we heard of this awesome, so the Michelangelo effect describes a situation in a relationship friendship or intimate partnership where Each partner sees the best in the other and tries to help bring that out So the sum of the parts is greater than it is individually.
The reason I love it is why it's called the Michelangelo effect So the block of marble that David was carved from had been attempted by a number of other Sculptors previously huge monstrous thing if you've ever seen David in person ginormous people can't and when you're looking up as well with that angle
on the plinth, it's even bigger, but Previous sculptures had attempted and failed But Michelangelo saw inside of the marble What was David right?
He just needed to get away all of the things that weren't I love that idea.
Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I think in life You want to be finding people that believe in you more than you believe in you that hold you to higher standards I think that's the definition of a good friend.
I Think that's definition of a good of a good partner.
He's a good definition of a good husband wife You know that they remind us of the best of ourselves they shine that light and remind us because We do.
I know I do it gets put put the blinds on it and I don't see it a lot of times I'll be reminded.
I This is this has always been a thing for me And I don't know how this correlates but I've never been as good my dreams as I am in real life I Never win the day get the girl ace the test again perform in my dreams I never have never have as well as I Will him in real life Think I'm the same and I'll
get and I'll be I guess what I'm says.
I'll be I'll pull something off I'm like see that and my friends are like No shit, that's that's you bro What's the biggie?
You know what I mean?
It's kind of what I like about living in Austin, Texas They're not really impressed with shit that I pull off they thought it was cool I want an Oscar, but they were like well no shit, you know, I was going.
Oh All right. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you, man That's you know and that's what that's what Friends will do in a way loved ones will do that and be like, yeah, there you are Ken comes back to that It's so much easier to be supportive and gentle of other people than of ourselves You know, you will happily bestow this sort of gentle
reassuring Pat on the shoulder when somebody succeeds or falls short when they tried their best right yet Given the fact that you tried your best You give yourself a kick in the dick on the way out of the door and a harsh word to follow you Yep, what do you think about?
when you do succeed and a lot of people go Nope, that's nothing I prescribed it.
I think we should take some time to be able to look in the mirror and own that thing that we pulled off and go Good job, that's what you wanted to what you got At the same time be able to as we do more often look in the mirror when we fail and go And bogey, you know not one to let off You know I mean but I I
mean it's it's kind of Big in the ownership idea of the failure or the or the gain ownership being really important And I don't I'm a fan of the ego I wish people Someone said this to me before look.
Ah this this this a Queen said this it came off the come.
I didn't think about it.
She was like Wow, something Matthew you're so full of yourself and I without thinking I was like, well, who else am I supposed to be full of?
That's a good line and I stopped everyone's like that's exactly what I meant.
I wrote that down I wish more people were more full of them sell not in the arrogant Way, don't talk about a healthy ego to understand and I understand egos difference between I and me Means the objective but to know the I wish more people I wish we were more full of ourselves I wish more people in the world
were more full of themselves I think part of the challenges in life is a lot of us are running around half ass and ourselves half fooling ourselves not full of ourselves not Studying ourselves enough not holding ourselves to task enough not patting our own self on the back when we do get what we want
enough Not cracking our own whip on our backside when we do get out of line even though we knew better I wish we were more full of ourselves that way The guy that was sat there yesterday Dwayne I asked him Something not too dissimilar about self -esteem.
He took a little while.
He said I like me I'd buy me a beer I just thought that's so fucking great.
Yeah, I'd buy me a beer.
Hey, he's shaking hands with himself, you know and Sweet man, I got plenty of times.
I'm sure as I'm the last guy I want to have a beer with I'm happy to say I got some times.
I'm like I appreciate drinking alone You know, I mean I mean it Yeah, it'd be nice.
Would that be not bored more than nice is a better word than nice but if Go go Try to be today someone you want to have a beer with it's pretty good easy way pretty good bumper sticker You know, I mean could have been in the book.
Yeah Talk to me about the non deserving complex.
Yeah, it feels similar.
Yeah so It definitely And I think it's called in their term imposter syndrome or something like that When I got famous off the time to kill I Had more people saying I love you and I'd only said that like four times my life to four different people and I was like wow This is they mean it, you know the The
red carpets and caviar I started to get that feel why me why me there's other people that deserve this more me And that's back when I had a I was using the word deserve which I'm not the biggest fan of now my prefer earn but I didn't feel like I Deserved it in the big scheme of things It was a I think
it's a We have to what's what's dangerous about it.
I think it's core. It's it It's a it's a coping mechanism, but it's a false humility.
Yep. Yep. I understand.
It's like it's almost arrogant think that you're You did all that even you know It's almost like guilt is an arrogant thing like who makes you the judge and jury of you on that who you know It's like saying Being very arrogant to go.
Oh, no. No, no, not me.
I Shouldn't have that It does help you you deal when the stimulus of the world's brand new and coming on you It helps you back up because you can't you don't want to take any more arrows because you're feeling it all as arrows I Sure felt that when I first got famous Talk about all the options and yeses
brand new yeses for me in the world.
I Pushed against it and I even had clumsy times where I got ugly just to counter it Like I said, I brought the book attribute myself running downhill I tripped myself because I felt like man things are going too.
Well, I need a bloody nose BAM I give myself one now.
I feel more. Okay now I'm where I'm supposed to be This part of that come with the fact that I grew up in a middle -class Blue -collar family and you value text at 12 ,000 people from a dad who's like you get out there and you earn you break a sweat probably I don't know.
I Wouldn't fit so much stuff was coming at me and I didn't feel like I would break broken a sweat to get it I was having fun what I did and I was couldn't give myself enough credit for maybe he's going you're good at what you're doing Mm -hmm.
I was like and and and I was looking for the proverbial sweat.
I was looking for the Where's the exhaustion of a full working day where I actually I drew blood man.
I did it I made it through dude the Puritan work ethic runs strong.
I used to struggle.
I ran nightclubs for a long time and There was a period where I didn't miss a single Saturday, which was our big event for 204 Saturdays in a row and I would go on holiday the holidays.
I was having you know, I'm 2022 to 26 something like that's a prime young guy territory and I would go on holiday from a Sunday morning until a Thursday evening and they make sure that I was back in the northeast of The UK why'd you make sure you got back on the Saturday night because I couldn't bear
to have success without having bled for it okay, because if it There was so many hoops I had to jump through in order for things to for me to get a patent on the back Had to go well, if it went badly, I was less But not only did it have to go well, I had to suffer in service of it going well Yeah, because if it
went well but came easily That was also somehow lesser like for me.
I felt like this in almost.
Yes, not a disease more of a sin I was like, I didn't pay a pen at Sarah man.
I didn't I hadn't given enough time that didn't like it break the proverbial sweat for all the blood to earn that thing You know, I'm getting in all this Didn't wasn't able to look at the eye didn't feel it needed things to feel I also needed At that time anonymity, which I lost.
Yeah, and I think everyone needs an anonymous soul and I had lost mine and I didn't know What was up down left or right I hand I got through stuff if I look back at my interviews the first two years I got famous.
I bet you they're so damn boring because I was my two rules would be a gentleman and don't lie Two pretty boring rules if that's only what you're going in for you in for and you're creative and you got a colorful life But I was just Repeated stay down the line.
It wasn't until later on that was like, oh man, I trust myself enough I believe myself enough to share how I feel about things.
Yeah Privacy is one of the privileges that people are born with that.
They don't realize until they've lost it, right and This has been a little bit of a trajectory that I'm starting to dip my toe into over the last few years as well of loss of privacy loss of privacy must increase scrutiny right sense of eyeballs and even you know, it's a micro niche degenerate version of Proper
fame but still This sort of sense of vigilance being watched in some way or another and Yeah, it's one of those odd Inverted privileges most people think about privilege is something that is bestowed upon you after you have done X Y and Z But this is one of those things that as you tend to go on the trajectory
most people want to go on Yeah, it's something that gets derogated something that you lose.
Sure and you People have you skip the salutations of hi, how you doing?
What's your name? People have bio on you they have an idea an opinion for you before you ask for it Sometimes it's hyperbole to the Awesome to overly all exaggerated awesome.
Sometimes it's well below and You walk outside you don't even have to talk to the world.
You know, you feel eyes You see how people move towards you or move away from you or what you catch it all in your periphery and you start going They I know what I know what I know what they think And maybe that's false Feels a lot better when it's maybe false but to the oh they even think I'm better
than I'm then I think even did Think I did better than I did but still just consulting either way either way.
It's all fountains because it's not on it's not on parts why I Headed out to Peru after I got famous took the 22 -day backpack trip.
I and I remember writing down.
I said I need I Need to go test my Who I am my character on people who know me as a stranger and When I left the hugs and after 22 days the hugs and the tears of the strange no longer strangers up to me today's But the hugs and the tears were coming from people that only knew me as a guy named Matthew
And that's it who showed up and met me from there.
No biography on me had no idea was famous No ideas in the movies and 22 days later 22 days later They're weeping tears of glit gladness and sadness saying goodbye to me that gave me trust magazine.
I was like I got it I did this I'm still I got it.
I Still fix the tire don't have to I don't have this the whole thing isn't just triple -a coming to fix the car You know, okay, it was it was that that was a I needed that It gave me a lot of confidence come back to Hollywood and look a lot of the What I was deeming excess look at in the eye and go I
get it. I get it I know I earned getting here.
I'm still I still I got the goods all of this I may not have earned that they didn't even ask for a lot of this, but I know I got myself here Okay in other news this episode is brought to you by Shopify Shopify powers 10 % of all e -commerce in the United States and they're the global force behind Jim
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Did you ever have a lonely chapter?
during your trajectory Looking back I would say I did I Mean Look I had some wonderfully fun and healthy and honest single years That were Became sort of revolutions That became sort of structurally tangent And it was fun stayed on the surface purposefully I kept it there they kept it there But I would still
You know have many lonely Nights when a man lays his head on the pillow no matter who was in the bed.
I was sleeping with me and Felt like many times I was in neutral Didn't have something that I was building towards and chasing relationship wise even career wise at that time I Got through it fine.
I didn't I didn't go Overboard and overindulge and didn't get dangers with my health or anyone else's Mainly because if I did get to if I get the blues, I'd be like open your eyes, bro.
Look around man. You kidding me Take your time and so You know I would say Ultimately, I was lonely in that time because I knew I knew it was a stop not a stay and I knew I wanted more career relationships, etc But I wasn't really Fully committed I would it wasn't didn't have to maybe think the wherewithal
then the identity to go actually chase it and go I know what I want.
I want to I want to live away to attract that I did try and go did have time.
I tried to go find it But as I talked about in the book, I mean I had time where I was every red light who's over there Produce section who's over there every party who's over that, you know looking for the one and once I was like, uh -uh Now that great dream of the 88 year old bachelor that I was with all
the kids showing up that dream gave me Grace man, cuz I quit looking for that one I did be start acting like someone though that my target drew the arrow I was I started acting like someone who had aware withal and a peace of mind with myself Not needing someone to fulfill that drew her to me That I
didn't have before that dream you've had a Front row seats to some a variety of rhythms of marriages your parents yours What have you learned about choosing a good partner?
Oh Well, I'm and I'm still learning but Friends First I Mean the Camille and I become friends first No We wouldn't became lovers pretty quickly But I was the things I respected about her and saw that she had were things that I valued in a close friend someone who respected their past someone Who had
a great sense of humor?
What was never gonna?
Lie to put themselves to get what they wanted in front of me or take advantage of me Someone who you know was impressed with who I was much more than they were impressed with what I did someone who very quickly saw the best in me and was like I Like that let's see some more that You know and what and watered
that side of me as we talked about earlier see some more of that Let me set things let me put some more fuel on that fire.
So you can even be more that why not be all that?
you know Then if you're gonna get together, I think this is a Susan Sarandon line when she was married to It's his name Tim Who was Susan Sarandon married to?
years ago an Entire room of people shaking their heads great actor Shawshank Redemption Tim Robbins they had a line That said that we have similar moral bottom line It's always stuck with me.
Are you gonna partner with someone especially we're gonna have family I think make sure you got a similar moral bottom line because In look Camilla and I are going through new challenges now because we have teenagers our moral bottom line and Dues and don'ts and what's accepted and what we wouldn't
accept had been pretty part and parcel up until now Teens you're getting like well, I'm a little loose over here.
Yeah, let him go. Let him go Get that scar let it go get their heart broke.
Whatever that is. Let him go try it out and fail or succeed Let him go negotiate free play.
She's a little more And so we're her and I are working on that balance right now And it's a new balance having teenagers as they're getting their independence, but having a similar moral bottom line You know connected to bringing out the best in the partners is Having some of you're a fan of and that they're
a fan of you You call each other on your shit Or you don't have to call it because a look says enough and yeah, and I know Yeah, that was me pokey, you know, or yeah, I got away with that one again no more cut that out and then What I'm learning now trying to learn is that Seems we're essentially always
all the the person that for me now I'm not thinking I'm essentially the same person I was I was 19 years ago You know, it seems to the same person I was when I was 8 51 But our value systems reorder as we as we grow independently and As a couple your value system changes for every parent when they become
a parent for what's important in their life So you read you you're moving things different places on the chart and the number one spot the two spot and three spot But to understand that it also happens with with with us as individuals and going that we do change and How do we even by being essentially
the same person that we fell in love with we still Need room to change along the way and go through things that may seem inconsistent with who The DNA of why we fell in love with that person or what do what we love what who someone was but another still essentially that but but give them room to change
give them room to change also the the The I think it's a Springsteen line, you know, you don't about Sometimes you're running and the other one's walking And it's okay to be ahead but don't don't lose sight don't get so far ahead that you leave your mate Lost back there going Alright, you know sometimes,
you know, somebody's real healthy.
The other ones on I are We're still in the same team that takes patients by the one who's healthy and takes Persistence by the one who's on I are but you got to got to wait up to hold that hand to go We're still doing this together.
Even though maybe in this zone right now in my life.
I'm flying and you're Walking so certain things that I find them.
Well, she's flying and I'm walking, you know And so navigating that and how we change as we grow up And measuring that against Who we initially fell for in the first place and see and well, they are still that But course it changed how I've changed.
I want to say, you know, and a lot of times I know I we said I know I said well you changed.
I was like Well heaven.
Yeah, I've changed.
I'd hope so You know and doing that with a partner Is part of the work I think of a relationship Sort of talking about transformations trajectories pivots changes let's escape Hollywood and go to South America and see what's going on over there.
Let's escape singlehood pivot into a marriage.
Yeah pivot into family from the diads to triad to So on yeah I'm fascinated by the Aggressive pivot that you made between different movie categories and that requires I think a lot of Courage and hope and self -belief and and faith In order to do to let go of something good.
Yeah For the chance that's something that you think could be great.
Yeah, I Think that's something that a lot of people wish that they had a little bit more fuel for It was a big risk it was a big chance and it was no guaranteed return ticket It was a one -way ticket possibly to I'm a head coach of high school football to this day one way ticket to a dead end Or to something
new but one way ticket to a dead end in Hollywood.
It's an actor for sure Look it's no coincidence that at that time to have the courage to make that decision I Did have Really cool things going on in my life.
I'd fall in love with Camilla.
She'd just become pregnant with her first child that gave me some significance of like ah That's what I've always wanted to be so father Here we go if I stick with it This will give me a home base to feel secure in even though I'm stepping away from what has made me give me significance for so many
years and decades in my life Having her to sit there as much as I Knew it was the right decision and it was a 3 a .m.
Decision in my own soul She's always been very good with me about going and I say it out loud and we're gonna do here's what we're gonna do If we're doing this she's the one that said you could this could be dry for who knows how long You may not get work ever again, but if we're gonna do this I'll
be here by your side and we're doing it together and there's no going back.
There's no we're not gonna get We're not gonna get nerves at the goal line If we don't know where the goal line we're not gonna get down the line and go oh a pool parachute uh -uh Even if it's a 14 million dollar parachute even if it's 14 million dollar parachute Even if it doesn't work out and you become
a teacher or you go become a lawyer again, whatever this would so Making that a choice that was inevitable that there was no pull in the parachute on Sure as hell helped with the endurance of Me being away for what was 20 months.
I learned a lot of endurance in that year in Australia, though Same way that gave me a lot very thick skin for enduring something.
So that 20 months was really hard and I've said it before that proverbial bottle on the shelf was looking better and better earlier in the day as time went on I Mean, I mean how many more times could I work in the damn garden, man?
I'm like, I'm not a gardener for life Like this, but I gotta I gotta come on man But she helped me stay steady.
I stayed steady my faith helped me stay steady I did have a real belief whether I was tricking myself or not that There's there's a bigger pot of gold for me on the other side of this if I just out endure it I jet out endure this summit and it became a little like the year in Australia I started I got
I started to gain pride and honor with the longer the pendants went on and being without what I wanted Started to be like well, I'm definitely backing out now, man I'm six months in turns into my meds all on a year later.
I'm like, I'm a year in man.
This is getting good okay, come on and Out of the blue 20 months later I'd been gone long enough to become a new good idea Where's mcconaughey?
Plus he said no to that fourteen point five million dollar offer three months ago and I guarantee that told some people in Hollywood What's this so much up to?
You don't say no to fourteen five million dollar off.
It was way the wall is too big to get out and he said no No, someone does that you get a little more attracted to him.
What this dude's on to something.
He's got his own program He's playing offense on something.
He's not just regressing and I think that also Sent a bit of a signal.
This is my hunch Through Hollywood and then then the fact that it was just honestly 20 months almost two years later Where's mcconaughey?
Hmm. We haven't seen him in a rom -com.
We haven't seen him on the beach shirtless.
Where is he? He hadn't shown up in front of our faces.
Anyway, I don't even know what he's doing.
He wouldn't know he's doing Do you fear or did you fear not being sufficiently prolific not being sufficiently sort of Front of stage Keeping your name out there.
What if somebody else takes that place of me?
What if I become irrelevant?
What if people forget I didn't have any fear of anyone taking the place Because my place at that time was rom -com king and I was sure I was like I'm good I've done enough of those right now.
I don't need another one of those right now I don't want another one of those right now if someone steps didn't take the place Bravo, I always like to say I took the baton from Hugh Grant and then I had my time I was like, who'd you think you threw it to?
I? Don't know the rom -coms are not Not they're definitely not as healthy of a genre now as they were then we were rolling in the rom -coms They were like can't miss her span They're medium budget 30 35 mil.
So the studio's not blowing their wad on the budget.
They come out They make good money Studios make good money.
All of them kind of work even the ones that didn't work as well kind of worked Yeah, you know potential audience.
Everybody can go see it repeats on Valentine's Day.
Come on, you know So I don't I don't know that did really hand it to I don't know anyone's really jumped in that lane or if that lanes even Got a help wanted sign anymore, you know Um Did I feel the irrelevance Sure, I felt the unease of irrelevance.
I mean But then I got became irrelevant.
I mean it got to the point where I knew I was irrelevant It got to the point where I remember my agent saying I said you heard anything cuz Matthew I haven't heard your name and over two months.
I Was like and you're my agent.
You only have five clients.
He goes yeah, I Even heard your name.
I'm like that sounds pretty much like your relevance to me, bro.
Okay. All right, but Never Like I was shaky, but never was I gonna go Okay I'll go back rip.
I'll do it. Never was I gonna pull the parachute and You Know what if what if I didn't what those calls never came would I regret that sitting here now?
I don't maybe I wouldn't be sitting here now, but I Bet everything I got there's no way I'd regret it.
Whatever I'd be doing in my life right now I would have said this opened up we start off the conversation with this the things you don't get I Give us more put us more in places where we where we are where we find our own satisfaction Then the things that we do get in many ways.
I Like say it's you know life's mystery going forward to science looking back when you look back we go We can all connect every single dot it's mathematical scientific how we got to this table right here We've got plans for this afternoon, but we're not sure what's gonna happen It's not everything looking
back. It's it's it's it's all connected if we go back and look at it And there's a whole lot of I thought that was the end well It was the end but it was the beginning of this thing or I caught that red light and therefore made me 60 seconds later to get to that cafe where I met That movie producer
or that woman who became my wife or whatever that is It'll make sense at the time, but boy looking back.
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That's l -i -v -e -m -o -m -e -n -t -o -u -s Dot -com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom Check out Is that quote about uh The ironic tragedy is that life has to be lived forward but only makes sense in reverse Yeah Ironic tragedy who really said that I mean, what do you think about all the?
Life the ironic tragedy Life is pain And it just is nothing but pain.
But so we if just if we can endure it Like I my mom Can't help She's worn me down with her endurance of her prescription on life.
How old does she know?
92 And she is the app.
She's absolute proof of the value of denial if you really commit to it Absolutely committed denialist committed denialist And it's not an intellectual trick There's no oh I'll I'll intellectually deny it so then i'll talk myself into and now I can Until I make it bam.
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Faded complete.
No, it didn't happen.
No, mom. It did. No, it didn't I'll say it didn't it didn't and she's not You don't catch her in between the lines or off by herself Realizing like oh, well it did.
No, it's done Non -negotiously done her favorite word is yes.
Why am I think you're living so long?
Well, I can't imagine not being here Oh, that's jeso man.
That's pretty good.
I really can't I honestly cannot imagine not being here so she She's beaten two types of cancers on aspirin And we're like that doesn't make any sense and we have to Tie her up and haul her to the doctor the dermatologist if you get something in our leg Because going to a doctor in her mind recognition is recognition of possible
sickness So you go there remove a cancer take some cancer medicine.
Do you have cancer?
No, I don't And you wink and she does not wink I don't I don't what Anyway, if you're gonna if you're not you're not following soup, you don't believe it next question That's how she is and she's banned because she's not playing a trick She does it It's a full -on commitment to denial and it's and it's
awesome. She would not prescribe to life is Painful and you have to get through she thinks it's Now mind you she's very anti because she she's someone who like I think I touched on in the book.
She had a horrible Motherhood mother and parent parental growth.
She did not know how to be a mother How'd she become a great mother by saying i'm doing the opposite of what that bitch did?
There's value to that i'm going well, I this sucked.
I don't know how to do this But if I just do the opposite dude, I love this idea.
So I grew up in a very working class town northeast of the uk Famous only for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in england and then it lost that so it didn't even have that anymore and uh I think there's that idea of food deserts in america where it's Areas in which it's difficult to get good
food and I think that uh Stockton on teas In the 90s was a role model desert at least for me.
Mm -hmm. So I wasn't around many people like the person that I wanted to be like and At the time I think I was desperately looking Like a thirsty man parched for water for somebody that would be that but in retrospect again ironic There were a lot of people around me That were people I didn't want to
be And I was able to plant flagpoles in the ground That helped me to avoid the catastrophes and the tragedies that would have awaited me had I have done that So I don't want his relationship with his family Yeah, I don't want the way that he drinks in order to be able to deal with his emotions I don't
want the way that he speaks negatively about all situations.
I don't like the way that yeah I think much of life is Avoiding pitfalls not necessarily expediting successes.
Yeah, the pitfalls can take you out of the game completely in one form or another and Yeah, I I don't like dwelling on the negatives in that way, but also That's another version of alchemy that we were saying before.
Hey, here's something that you think is useless or toxic or not.
Yeah not valuable and you've managed to turn it into Something that benefited you it's the same reason why teaching people lessons that you've gone through from tragedies traumas, whatever in your life It's kind of like pointing at the thing that was bad and saying you didn't get me I'm going to make
sure that you're not going to get them either Yeah, and even looking at the things that are bad and going Ah, thank you appreciate that I mean the the push -off You have Established leverage rather than the create to you know, you're gonna Lean into something you also need something to push up the push
-off is what you're leaning into is that mystery going forward right that ironic Chives that you have something to push off the well, I don't know what I do want But I do know I don't want that you have leverage.
Yes, you know, you know, it's it's there so I don't know.
I mean we can get into a big discussion on on on victimhood here as well, but I you know, I I wrote about in green lights about how You know, we always say well, who are you?
You know what? She's figured out who you are And we asked I tried to I tried to ask my kids that now why won't you know who you are?
And a part of that who's helped me is bob dylan zines Like I don't know what all this talks about who we are man We are all just what we create ourselves to be and that gives me a little oh, that's relaxing But the it's so much easier figure out who you're not Then if you start eliminating the who i'm
not by sheer mathematics you end up Moving towards who more of what feeds you and who you are and it's a hell of a lot easier thing to go How can I get rid of some bullshit in my life?
Then it is to go. Well, how do I go to my true self?
Do I want to press the accelerator more quickly?
Or do I want to take my foot off the fucking brake?
Right. Yeah Yeah And sit there and and because i'm i'm banging my head here and i'm gonna eliminate some of that stuff I want to get some of those things out of the way That didn't had another hangover I drank the same amount when I didn't usually have a hangover.
Oh, maybe it was the conversations I was having Maybe it was you know, maybe it was the people I was hanging out with those just clocking Some of those things and eliminate them is a much easier place to start you know and maybe Maybe more is it maybe more valuable?
I mean I don't know.
I always like to think that the The ufc champ or the the boxing heavyweight champ that believes they are the greatest Is more empowering than the one who's out for revenge, but man the one out for revenge wins a lot of the times The one who's pushing against yep.
Now i'm gonna get back at you rage Nothing gets more shit done than that emotion of rage We like to say no freedom and light is the one that carries it man I don't know that's maybe too evolved for us to really grab a hold of rage And anger and revenge are mighty powerful emotions, man.
Yeah Yeah, they get a lot of shit done.
Yep, especially in the beginning especially for a short period of time.
I think when you It's a potent fuel that's toxic in the long term And I think that it's the sort of thing that you use to overcome the activation energy, especially the beginning of a thing, right?
I need something to kick me out The chip on my shoulder from the kids that didn't believe me in school The fact that I felt like I was mistreated or victimized or or or it in some form there was something Some limitation placed on me It's a pretty good fuel that'll get you a long way.
Yeah, but You do not want to be using that two three four decades down the line.
Well, and you'll you'll What do you call yourself implode?
Because you can't recognize your allies from your enemies and you start taking that on your allies.
We see it in relationships You start taking it out on your mate start taking it out on your wife your husband your lover and like i'm an i'm i'm I'm an ally man.
We're on the same teams But you're you you're back to that non -deserving.
No, i've gotta i've gotta bleed No, I gotta I gotta I gotta I gotta win.
I gotta get angry now You hey, well also you've the lesson that you've taken is Enemies are more functional motivating sources Than allies, right?
Therefore if I can make enemies out of allies, I will just find lily pad lily pad lily pad I'll just keep jump jump jump jumping Yeah, but that like I think what you're saying is that that That trajectory starts to go It's not good.
Well, what have you got left you've got an entire world filled with enemies or at least no allies, right?
And yeah, you know as someone who used a chip on his shoulder for a good while to Get some activation energy.
I much prefer the version that I am now Me and a friend have uh three versions of ourselves that we think about so we have a dopamine chris We have serotonin chris.
We have cortisol chris, okay and uh dopamine chris is lean in he's thinking about plays on the show and and how Magnificent big it's going to be and awards and cool money and stuff like that And cortisol chris is seeing threats and anxiety.
He's looking out for that that ambient vigilance that I was saying before he's on edge Then serotonin chris has taken a micro dose of magic mushrooms He's playing pickleball with his friends or he's lying under a tree looking up at the sky I want to spend as much time in serotonin chris as possible
you do Yes, I want to spend as much time in serotonin chris as possible and I find myself Magic mushrooms and a hammock hanging with his buddies.
Okay. Yeah, I want to spend as much time in that as possible uh, but That wouldn't have got me out.
That wouldn't have been the Escape velocity that I needed to be able to leave whatever atmosphere.
I was in I needed to use these other values I needed to to run away from a life that I didn't want And run toward one that I did needed to escape something that I feared and I also needed to go towards something but the The real bliss is when you go orthogonal to both of those which is Heard let me
ask you this so when you're Serotonin chris magic mushrooms with your buddies in the hammock.
How long can you lay in that hammock before you get to The impostors the thing hey, I gotta I gotta go accomplish for me It's it's it's going to accomplish something to have some sort of purpose.
I've got it I'm still working on getting better on vacations I'm much my wife knows that i'm much easier to get along with on vacation If I get a couple hours to write in the morning and get a workout in dude I wish I could go two weeks with going.
Hey, man, whatever, but I get I get antsy I get edgy I'm not present because I need a little I need a little time to go break a sweat mentally physically And then I can be then man the rest of the day i'm great I Love this topic.
I've been thinking about it so much recently uh type a people with type b problems Type b people with type a problems.
Okay, so the insecure overachiever needs to learn how to lie in a hammock Yeah, and the lazy person who's on the verge of bankruptcy needs david goggin shouting in their face, right?
Yeah, now the interesting thing is because of culture And because of the way that people are perceived A person who is overworked but outwardly very successful will always seem to be in a more preferable position Than someone who's on the verge of bankruptcy and needs to get off xbox.
All right, so we we gift more sympathy Because it seems charitable, right?
It seems supportive to the person who you just need to work harder Think about what you have contributed to the world which are movies in every movie The training montage of the down underdog is them working hard and and and learning to Get up on time and be disciplined and so on and so forth I don't
know of any movies where a guy learns to log out of slack at 6 p .m And lie on a beach holiday right, how how Like opulent and transactional and dopaminergic are you that you need to be taught how to chill out?
You not know there's people out there that would kill to be in the position that you are That's that's that's the dialogue right there That's interesting How about a how about a movie about the um a low handicap moody movie for the type a That needs to learn how to show off slack and go hang in a hammock
And pulls that off And don't and don't ask permission to tell it don't ask for don't ask for boohoos for the for the character just Because no one's no one's showing that I mean look what do we do today?
What are the things going?
You probably know better than I do there's a lot it's like People got much more than meditation Successful people got much more than meditation uh You brought one up earlier psychosyllis even is psychosyllis Now sort of a sort of avant garde sort of hair.
Hey, man. This is a way to breath work cold plunge sauna Sound healing.
Yeah Now how many of those are we gonna look at ten years and go that was a fad?
How many of those are we gonna go?
That was a really cool discovery.
Well, here's the vicious thing about those modalities that a lot of people, I call it productivity purgatory, which is the things that you do for fun you only do in order to be able to service more productivity when you get back to it.
So why do you do your breath work?
Not because it makes me feel good and I like to do breath work, but because I watched an Andrew Huberman podcast episode that said that it allows me to work 15 % harder the next day.
You go, no, no, no, like your recovery modalities should be in service of themselves.
Do you think this is a, if we're going to call it a sinner disease, I'm gonna do that for stereotype and typical word.
You think this is a sinner disease of the West?
Because for instance, I'm in Italy and we were at this wonderful couple, older couple, and they were both like 80 and they were just fabulous shit together, man.
And the lady was a great, she was like, I get a great shit.
She was like, oh, I swim around this island each day and then I swim there and my question was how far do you swim?
And she was like, what?
I swim until I don't want to swim anymore.
I was like, it was a very Western idea.
How far? How much time?
She was like, I swim until I don't want to swim anymore.
You wanted to quantify it.
I was quantifying like - You tracked it on Strava, right?
You've got a spreadsheet for this.
Do you have your oral ring on it?
She was like, what?
She was confused at my question.
And I was like, ah, a beautiful stereotypical difference in a European thought and a Western thought, but it's similar to that.
It is very much. I mean, we were playing a friend's birthday earlier this year in Miami and there was a pickleball court, but we were playing, I like good British blokes.
We were playing a sort of foot tennis instead.
And I realized that we were playing to win and I didn't want to play to win.
That wasn't the energy I wanted.
I was in dopamine, Chris, and I wanted to be in serotonin, Chris.
So I said, why don't we change the rules of the game and work both teams separately but together to try and make the most beautiful game that we can?
I want everyone to be doing trick shots.
You want to set up the other side to do trick shots.
Some of the guys were good football freestylers, stuff like that.
And the first response from my friend that came up with the serotonin dopamine court is all thing, George.
His first response was, yeah, and we can count them.
No, no. Let's keep the mathematics out of this, man.
And that's your lady swimming around.
How long, how far, how many times?
Yeah, yeah. What? Yeah.
I'm taking this thought to my, I'm going to play tennis for two hours when I leave here and the girl I'm going to hit with, as much as I can, I'll see if I could do it.
I doubt I can do it for two hours, but I'll see how long I can do it a little bit.
I'm going to try and set her up for great shots and see how the rallies go.
But even then, within that, was that shot better than the last one?
Was that more beautiful?
You know, it's this infinite fucking regress of performance metrics and all the rest of it.
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Fastball. In six weeks' time, it's the 10th anniversary of Interstellar.
I think it's being re -released in theaters in 70 mil iMacs.
How did that movie change you?
It's my favorite movie of all time, so thank you.
I have a lot of people tell me that that's her favorite movie of all time, and that's another that a lot of people had to go watch four times.
There's a lot to take in.
There's a lot to say again.
Classic Nolan. Yeah.
How did it change me?
You're not talking about the success of the movie.
I mean, like the subject material and everything else.
Either working with Christopher, learning about...
I mean, you know, Kip Thorne, fucking the consultant physicist on that show.
So much stuff. Also, you know, in that sense, it was similar to when I did a movie called Contact, and I got to sit with Carl Sagan for three and a half hours.
And he went through...
And I remember walking away from that going, oh my gosh, as a believer, God's backyard's a whole lot bigger than I thought it was, which is a very humbling and empowering thought.
I mean, look, the main thing was, I think, on the human side of the real...
Me, personally, I was like, oh, you don't leave your kids to go do what your dream is.
And then when I changed dream, what your dream is to go do what you were meant to do, what you were born to do, that you have an ability to do like nobody else.
I'm just like, oh, well, maybe you do leave your kid.
That argument and that leaving, which is that countdown, that's I remember, that's where I was.
That's the scene I'm remembering, is the price you pay, the cost, the consequence of chasing down.
And my initial thought was, oh, Cooper's being selfish in the wrong way.
And then it's a good argument, though.
I don't think you can easily say that.
There's a major consequence with that.
But look at what...
And look, I deal with it now.
I got three kids doing my favorite job.
But I think I find extreme and endless purpose in parenting.
But I'm dabbling in different versions of leadership that have to do with the betterment, maybe, I hope, of more people.
But it would be coming to a consequence of being there and being present like I want to be for my three children and my wife as our family.
I haven't found anything that I believe is worth that at the sacrifice of this yet.
And my argument with myself there is the best exports we can have if we do it well as our children, no better export you can put out, no better extension of yourself, no better way to affect the world than hopefully having some healthy children that can go be independent enough.
And you tell them, they see the world in the right way and can chase down things that they love and they hopefully love the right things.
So contributing to anything in place of that is a net negative.
Well, that would be my argument at the sacrifice of fewer that I feel like, oh, that's the lineage.
I'm helping give them the palette to paint on and I'm handing the right colors to them and letting them fall from the right heights, the right trees to where they get bruised, but hopefully don't break a neck.
But it's a good argument and one that I understand on the other side and I have friends that have sacrificed that.
I have friends that have been very successful even in the career of being an actor in Hollywood and a successful actor in Hollywood.
This brings me back to when we first had kids before Camilla pulled the goalie to get pregnant, she goes one condition, you go, we go.
And my first reaction was, hey, I'm lone wolf artist here, man.
I go off my airstream with my dog.
I'm a solo coyote here, man.
And while I'm saying that, I heard my mother's voice go, you better nod your head and say she's giving you a gift.
Say yes, ma 'am, and I did.
Yes, ma 'am. And we've done that.
I'm a 16 year old, a 14 year old, and an 11 year old.
No doubt that has a major contribution to whatever strength our family is.
And I think our family is very strong and the security that my kids have and the courage that they have because we've never been away from each other that long.
They picked up, came with.
There's another side, I understand you go, got opportunities that can do great things.
I could share art or leadership in the world that, hey, I'm going to be away.
And maybe that's even, there's argument that that could be better for your children later on, or maybe better for their children.
But this is the, you know, we were talking about that infinite regress of being mean to yourself or emotions about emotions and stuff, thinking about the decision that Cooper needs to make, and also the decision that you need to make.
It's, you can always continue to kid yourself a little bit more.
Is it more virtuous to stay at home with your children, to raise your children, despite the fact that the likelihood of them surviving into the future and their kids surviving into the future is lessened by that.
Okay. But then if you go and do the thing, you leave them, you're making that sacrifice.
But are you doing it because you want to save the world or are you doing it because it's your dream or the fact that you can get something virtuous out of something that's also your dream, is that fucking Puritan work ethic we were talking about before, which is I, the only way that this can be a virtuous
decision is if I suffer more.
It's only suffering, not just that it's good for the future, but also that I don't want to do it because if I don't want to do it, then I know that it's really, really true.
It's a high price that I pay because go pull it off.
And this is the, as far as I can see the curse of the deep thinker.
Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.
A curse and gift because it does do one thing that we hadn't brought up at a very base level.
And I think this goes along with stress, anxiety.
At the very base, it means in something that we can't take for granted because not everyone has it, it means you give it down.
Yes. And let's not throw that out like, Oh, of course you, no.
And like, cause not everybody does.
It means you give it down about more, about more than just yourself.
And that is a high, that's a high end value and not an old fashioned nostalgic thing to go, Oh, that's so 1950s bullshit.
That's a real thing.
Some people can't care or some people struggle to care about things for entire people that go through the lives.
It's odd, especially in the UK loving things, being too keen, right?
Americans kind of have permanent first line cocaine energy.
Yeah. Very excited.
Yeah. And I like it.
I like excitable people.
I like enthusiasm. However, the UK doesn't necessarily have that quite so much.
And I always think how much more I would, how much I wish I could gift that back to the UK, but how much that positive reinforcement, we were saying it before, that first scene that you do and the guy next to you goes, Hey, that was pretty good.
Yeah. Yeah. The right encouraging word.
The right time. Where would that push people to?
And okay, if that's what you want for you in the world, you have the opportunity to be that for other people.
And maybe it's going to start to come back around and maybe we can begin to change culture a little bit by doing this.
When will that English, or does it, does it have someone though, that is constantly like, ah, bollocks that goes and succeeds that the English culture goes like in Bravo.
Rarely. Rarely. So interesting stat around the UK globally so far in 2024.
The UK has the second highest number of millionaire exits on earth.
What's a millionaire exit?
A millionaire that has left the country and is now living in a different, a different nation.
China, first 15 ,000 UK second nine and a half thousand, but the UK is 3 % of the population of China.
So pro rata, we have got by far the most millionaires leaving by far.
We do not have a good culture around supporting success around people doing different things.
Another great example of this, the UK has got three universities in the two or three universities in the top 10 in the world, as does America.
So it'll be Oxford, Cambridge, maybe King's or Durham in the UK and there'll be Yale, Princeton, Harvard, something else in the US and a couple of others.
And we have 20 % the number of startup founders.
Despite the fact that we have the same number of university graduates going from top flight universities.
Why culture? Well, speaking of that, what did you learn?
You did The Gentleman with Guy.
Yeah. You spent a good bit of time, presumably, enmeshing yourself into British culture.
What did you learn while you were there?
Well, so there is still a royal dance to play the part and do in that I found that interesting and quite entertaining.
I remember that everything has, there's a costume and a timing and who goes here, when and here's how you sit there and this is how we do this.
And I found it very interesting.
Pump and circumstance.
Yeah, it was all there and I indulged and played that part and enjoyed.
Bit of whimsy. Now, when I went out and they saw that I was actually a very good shot at Pheasants, I got a few.
Hey, I got a few out of it.
Bring the American over here.
Hey, we like you now, right?
It's good with guns.
And then I remember this one though, where the, I think the term is where the posh went overboard, but nobody seemed to notice it but me.
And we were at this dinner and it was one of those dinners where 24 people on this side, 24 people on the side, Mrs.
is down there and Mr.
is down here. Mrs. has a 24 foot by 18 foot oil painting of herself over her chair and Mr.
has a 24 foot by 18 foot over his chair.
And it was just absolutely, this is all just great.
Everyone had their own waiter, they saw a ding on time and this is just absolutely great.
Well, after the dinner, the youngsters, the sons and the daughters had come over with their friends and they were all, it's also posh to smoke a cigarette.
Yes. And I remember this one again, flicking the ash.
There's an ashtray right down the table.
Boom, on the carpet.
And I was like, dude.
And without even saying it's like, no, man.
It's more posh. I'm posturing.
It's cooler to go, I can drop my ash on your $550 ,000 Persian rug than it is to put it in the ashtray.
And I was like, why that one, I think y 'all went over, I think you went out of bounds on that one.
But the fact that that was, it was games, but they were doing it inconsistently.
Fascinating. The Americans are basically blind to class.
You've had to use the word posh almost in speech marks there.
It's like a word that there is not a single school child that doesn't use the word posh in primary school once a day in England.
Everybody. And it means class?
It means this person is well to do from a well to do background.
And there's, you know, I remember there was a guy that I played cricket with, cricket still working class sport in the UK.
It's not necessarily upper class.
It's very working class town.
There was a kid who got a class Mercedes used for his 17th birthday, which is when you can drive in the UK.
And I was like, wow, Danny's from a posh family.
I never really knew that much, but I knew you had money.
He always had a nice kid.
He always had new boots at the start of each season.
But I was like, wow, he got a mistake.
In retrospect, it's maybe a seven grand car, 10 grand cars, something like that.
For me, I'm like, oh, posh.
Is there something though going on with the, as the royal family and the king and the queen losing power and that's becoming, is these millionaire exits?
Is this still a bit of a, how dare you become that wealthy in the private sector?
You're not a royal or?
No, I certainly don't think with regards to that, but there is definitely a skepticism around the monarchy at the moment.
And I'm really not sure where I stand on that.
One of my friends is a very compelling argument that we should do away with it.
It doesn't like the word you're highness higher than what, but also what was it that you were just saying?
Like, what have we got if we don't hold on to the culture and the things that people know us for?
And I like the pomp and circumstance.
When I graduated from Newcastle university, there's this 10 minute procession of different mace bearers literally wielding medieval weapons, doffing their caps to different people in different sequences in order to show who and where and why.
And it's like, this is fucking cool.
Whatever it is, it's still, because America, we're, whether we know it or not, we're hungry for ritual.
Yes. And we don't have near as much ritual.
It's not established.
There's trees that are older than your country.
Yeah, we're just puppies.
I hope that you don't get watered down to where, yeah, cause y 'all have amazing ritual, laugh, giggle at it or not, do it and appreciate it and go, this is a different place and it's been around.
It's been around a while.
Yeah. Posh, it's class.
Okay. Yeah. A little bit.
Well, to do. Okay. You mentioned there about some of the prices that people need to pay in order to be who they are.
Yeah. I'm fascinated by this question.
I'm fascinated by the cost of entry, price of doing business to be a person that other people admire.
Because I think that it helps dehumanize others' success and it helps to mitigate jealousy and envy.
Because you see what someone has had to go through in order to be in a position that you think you want to be.
And they go, oh, you get to see this much, by the way, there's this monster hiding behind.
Right. What do you wish more people knew about the price of success in life?
Well, success has taken on different definitions over time.
It used to have to do, and some people listen to this, will be like, ah, come on, McConnell.
It has to do with integrity, but actually, I think it was aware that it was in the definition in 1901 or 11.
And now, money, fame, that's your definition of success.
So it seems to be that, and always has been to some extent, whoever has more is more successful, more access, more money.
You're the winner. The last, for a lot, that is, I'm not saying it's a race to the red light, but I am saying the fourth quarter of that being your goal, it has the residuals decline on quality of life.
I've met many more very rich men who chased that dollar to be successful and to be relevant for having the most money that the last 15, 20, even younger years were bewildered, lost, had no relationships, didn't have purpose chasing the dollar.
They just did it. They were good at it and made it happen, but they didn't feel what they were doing.
They couldn't even necessarily say what they were really good at.
Just good deal makers who made the right calls in certain mathematics.
But that's definition.
It's also why I wasn't surprised when Trump first got elected.
Hit fame, hit money.
We sell that every day in the West as this is how you make it.
It's America. This is what you do.
That's America. Yeah.
So I was not surprised because that's what we're getting fed.
What a success. Let me prephrase it with this.
We all want to be relevant, but I think we all forget to ask ourselves relevant for what before we chase our relevance or chase success.
I think there's a difference between success and profit.
I mean, profit does pay you back.
Yeah. Can you do things and I love money.
I'm all for it. But there I see a lot of one -way tickets that are you can get successful, win, have more money, but not be making a profit in your life.
How many times we sacrifice quality for quantity?
The two don't have to be separate.
Now you may have to make some sacrifices of quantity to have more quality, but I think we should give quality more credit than we do.
Well, are we not ultimately having more quantity in the hopes of more quality?
You're sacrificing.
But that's not a quid pro quo.
It doesn't equal out to that.
We believe it. It will.
And hey, it can access.
I mean, I got a lot of things now for money I've made that I'm like, damn right, man.
I'm glad I have that.
That makes my life not even more convenient.
I actually like that more.
I like what I can do with my family more with that.
I like what Camille and I can do as a husband wife.
I like what I can do solo even more with that.
Enjoy it. And again, it feeds me.
But would I be any less, would I be any less happy if I had a 30th, 40th, 50th of what I have right now?
No, I know that there's no, I know I'd be less happy.
No way I'd be less happy.
Don't want to give all that away and say, well, make me poor sometimes and like, hey, you need to be more poor other times.
Like, no, no, no, no, don't be getting the impostor syndrome on this one.
You're using it for you.
Use it pretty good.
You could use it even better, but don't be, don't get mad at it.
You know what I mean?
I think we just need to ask for stuff that goes relevant for what and also in the pursuit of quantity, which is what the world rewards, ask ourselves, read through, watch out just drinking the Kool -Aid and go, what is the quality?
What do I want? And again, that's a hard question of what do I value the most?
What do I really value the most?
And it's a hard question to answer, but if we can answer that, make sure you're, you're, it'll make you, it makes us answer the quality question of what we want more of and not just the quantity question.
Cause a lot of us I've done it to been blind as could be chasing the quantity to see, let me see if I can get the biggest number.
That's dopamine, Matthew.
Dopamine Matthew. And I'm pretty damn good at it.
If I want to put on my business and go, that's all I'm going to be right here.
Found out I'm pretty good at it, but I don't want to stay in that dopamine Matthew on that, on that.
Cause I don't get the reward.
I get the reward of the acquisition, but the acquisition does not equally pay back the dopamine of the getting.
It's the conquering.
That's the, that's the hit.
You know, redefining, everyone can have their own definition of success and ask yourself, can I have quality with the quantity and can I have profit with my success?
And profit goes into, leans into relationships.
I think profit ends up to be a spiritual question too.
And how we treat ourselves and others, I think it's a longer game.
This chase for just success.
If that's money and quantity is, is a short sighted game.
If that's all, if that's all you're after.
Now I understand some people out there who can't pay their rent or are sick and trying to make the next day or listen, would listen to this and go easy for you to say.
And I say, you are correct.
I'm speaking from where, from my position, cause you asked me cause it's got some people that are going, I'm not, this is a hyperbolic conversation you're having.
I'm trying to make it to the next day.
Type B person with a type A problem thinks what a champagne issue that is.
Yeah. But it's a real one and I apologize for it, but I understand the difference, but I would just, I would say that if more people that are type A and or maybe things are working at, just check your quality as you chase your new quantities, make sure that whatever you're succeeding at is giving you
actual profit and actually paying you back.
Matthew McConaughey, ladies and gentlemen, dude, I really appreciate you.
I love the way that you think.
I love your insights about life.
Congratulations on the new book.
Congratulations on the tequila.
Thank you. Thank you for coming today.
I really, really enjoyed this.
I did too, Chris. Very much.
Glad to be here man.
Met up top in a barn somewhere in Austin, where I was looking down, didn't even know where I was going.
Showed me where the barn, I was like, oh, this is where we are.
Yes, it is. Seems on brand for you.
I like it. Heck yeah, dude.
Until next time. Until.
Thank you very much for tuning in.
Look, we went to a lot of effort to get to McConaughey here and convert an old barn that's from the 1800s in Texas.
So I really hope you enjoyed it.
I'll see you next time.
