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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they may talk.
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Violet, how are you going?
I'm well, thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Yeah, of course. It felt like such a natural fit, honestly.
So Violet, if you do not know her, is the host of the Almost Adulting podcast, otherwise known as Daddy Issues Online.
Hello and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the very unprofessional podcast, whereby I, your unqualified guide, talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Welcome back to the podcast.
I hope your week has been well, that something amazing has happened or you got some, you know, cool news.
I'm recording this with a little cat on my lap right now, and it's very, very satisfying.
But this week, we're going to be delving into the chaos, the absolute fucking nightmare of the nine to five job.
This is a topic that my friends and I talk about all the time.
And the general conclusion we most often reach is that the nine to five job should be abolished, left for dead.
It's not a happy way of life for many, I think, and myself included.
So today we're going to talk about how a nine to five is not conducive to a healthy, rounded and happy way of living.
So funny, because I don't notice it until I'm on calls with people who are based in the US or based in London and they'll be like, what did you just say?
And I'm like, I don't know.
I also got this like random DM from someone the other day that was like, you pronounce all of your words incorrectly.
And I was like, yeah, she was.
And then she like, was like, these are the words that I heard in your most recent episode that were wrong.
And I was like, I've got an Australian accent.
Like it's not, I know.
So strange. No, it's a real thing.
I have gotten before negative reviews in my almost adulting podcast down when we enter the workforce and suddenly we have to adapt our lifestyle to the typical nine to five work week.
So I've had this experience recently.
I work the typical nine to five every day, every week.
And after the first few weeks, the novelty kind of wears off and it really started to wear me down and it can be pretty, you know, fucking depressing.
The thing that really got me was that monotonous procedure of going to the same place every day, the same commute, doing the same silly little tasks surrounded by the same people.
And so much of your day becomes devoted to this bigger entity and what's in the interest of this company or organization.
How you grew up speaking English with your Australian accent, you will not be able to have the proper accent that French people have because I speak Hebrew.
I have the perfect.
To work, maybe blasting some music so you don't feel like, you know, an absolute robot.
And you finish up after five when the sun is set and where has where's your day gone?
Where is this natural instinct to be active in the sun and outdoors going with the hours you have left?
How do you create fulfillment and an identity in so many short hours in such a short period of time when the sun is down and you're exhausted?
And I've just come to the conclusion it's almost impossible to remain human in the system and to maintain a concept of yourself beyond your function as a worker or as an employee.
You know, you just end up having so little time to be yourself and to pursue things that truly do bring you joy.
Now, I know this is not the case for anyone.
Some people find work and jobs that inspire them in light of fire under their soul and push them towards really, really great things.
And some people find it immensely enjoyable and fulfilling to be devoted to people and projects that are bigger than themselves in a sense of purposefulness and productivity.
There's also that element of money, you know, in a world where we have to pay to exist.
No wonder we've become so conditioned to a system that asks us to sacrifice.
I've been working hard.
Okay, so, yes, I was in a relationship most of my 20s.
I was on and off with one of my second boyfriend.
I basically, growing up, when I started dating when I was 17, I was very much a late bloomer.
I wasn't interested in boys.
I moved to America when I was 14.
I was just trying to figure out how to speak English.
And I was not even thinking about boys.
I did not get them at all, especially Americans.
And in Los Angeles right away, it's...
It's such a little pressure to enter into this system in the corporate world and work our lives and days away until we're 65, retired, no longer have the bones or the stamina for the life that we actually wanted for ourselves.
And when I started investigating this and the psychology behind the nine to five job in our 20s, it started feeling even more startling and a pretty shitty deal that we've entered voluntarily into.
And I have had this feeling recently, like, at what point did I actually choose this life for myself and come to the conclusion it would bring me happiness?
Like, how much of that pressure was external or intangible?
Me feeling this idealized equation for a perfect life whereby, you know, you have a good job.
That's the foundation and everything else kind of falls around it.
But enough of my rant.
We're going to talk about why a nine to five job is not ideal for making a living, burnout, exhaustion and the struggle for fulfillment in a modern day capitalist society.
So before we understand the psychological effects of the five day work week, we have to understand its history.
So the truth is, this type of work schedule hasn't always been the standard in Australia or many places in the world.
So basically in the 1900s, factory workers, they were known for being forced to work 100 hour weeks or more.
But fortunately, after years of activist work and many people fighting the powers that be changed began.
And now the nine to five work week has kind of become a standard.
And we've certainly been really lucky to have people from the past who fought for these labor rights and for more free time.
However, I think many of us still believe we're not really getting the best deal.
So there was a study recently, it was a worldwide study that had over 3000 individuals all working those classic eight hour, sometimes more work days.
And findings showed that half of these individuals believe they can do their jobs using only five hour days.
This means they think they'd be more productive if they worked fewer hours instead of more or a four day work week instead of five, which really including people we date.
It's not in a way that you look back and you think, I can't believe I gave him one my 20s.
I can't believe I did this.
It's more that was a life lesson.
And the reason I stay with my partner for so long was because the universe was teaching me over and over again the same mistakes that I was just for some reason not learning.
And it wasn't until I'd learned how to love myself that I removed less satisfaction with how they use their remaining time and have fewer fulfilling relationships.
According to this recent study that I read about, I think it's only around 30 % of the US workforce is engaged in their work.
So in other words, they're passionate about their work and they feel strongly committed to their companies.
But that leaves 70 % of workers who are either not engaged or actively disengaged.
So that's 70 % of the population who have this work lifestyle, who appear quite frankly, quite miserable and not really engaged in what they're doing.
And on average, we spend at least 35 % of our waking hours at work.
And if we're not happy in our job, then it tends to have pretty far reaching impacts on other aspects of our lives.
And it affects things, you know, like our relationships, our sleep, physical health, our ability to relax.
So what is it about this system that creates such unhappiness from aside?
So then accidentally in my relationship, and they're being the same thing where we will fight and that's when my boyfriend pay attention to me and then we're fine.
That was so insightful.
I was so, so insightful.
And I think it really goes to show the complex interaction between how we were raised and how we approach intimacy and romantic relationships.
And I think people often don't think that those are linked, right?
They're like, okay, well, you know, my childhood was a discrete time in my life and my adulthood or my adolescence is also a discrete time.
And there's no overlap, but it's like you really are still the same person that's traveled through all of those experiences and the trauma that you...
Large amounts of leisure time.
Similarly, for those who relied primarily on, you know, gathering food, this would have required kind of more time invested, but involved large amounts of physical activity, rest time in between.
And it was the lifestyle that brought about specific and instantaneous rewards, such as finding something edible.
So both elements of this lifestyle have three important aspects that are no longer kind of present in the modern day work environment.
So firstly, they have this specific task -based reward.
You've got time outdoors and you're active and you've got...
...type of childhood trauma without even realizing.
And trauma is not as bad of a word as people think it is.
It just means it's what formed you into the human being, the adult that you are.
And it's up to you now as an adult...
...it means they're still expecting that we chase prey or collect roots and seeds.
But human innovation, firstly with the creation of agriculture and manufacturing and industry...
...it's really moved us away from our natural tendencies and rhythms.
And this is why the discomfort and boredom of a nine -to -five job can be so profound and unsettling for so many of us.
Because we've forced ourselves into a lifestyle that is fundamentally opposed to what our bodies and minds have evolved to do.
What's worse, I think, instead of being outside, people now work in these large buildings.
They're awfully tightly packed with people, technology, not much ventilation.
And instead of being this tribal creature chasing after your next meal or working alone in small groups, humans have become cells and pretty unindividualized cells in a much larger organism.
And it's an organism which has little use for their creativity and their individuality.
Basically, our genes haven't had much time to evolve to this lifestyle.
So working nine -to -five on small tasks and projects that...
...and you're like, whoa, I like you.
What is this feeling?
I don't get it. But I love it.
And it's because it feels familiar.
And the reason it feels familiar is because it's a childhood wound that you have inside yourself that hasn't healed.
And your body feels at home but not in a good way, in a way that something hurt you when you were a child.
And that's what's reminding you of.
And what's happening is, this is the psychology behind it, we attract partners that are similar to our child.
An evolutionary psychology approach to organizing their workplaces, they may drastically improve their workers' overall physical and psychological health, as well as their general productivity.
So what impact does the nine -to -five have on our mental state and our psychological wellbeing?
So not just being asked to fit into a nine -to -five lifestyle, but also does the things...
We're not doing the things that we aren't passionate about, and we don't really do things that fulfill us cognitively or creatively.
And there are some pretty long -term consequences of that.
Firstly, we've got fatigue, burnout, depression, existential dread, just to name some fun for you.
And long hours, they do cause fatigue.
I started dating a man who was also emotionally unavailable, and my brain was hoping maybe eventually...
Next day, so an employee who drags back to work after only a few hours of rest at home isn't going to be very productive in the morning.
Then the next long day ties them out even more, and this kind of punishing cycle begins.
They're not going to be able to fulfill their other obligations in life or properly utilize their leisure time if they're exhausted, mentally under or overstimulated and dealing with the pressures of the workplace and just life in general.
And this is particularly pronounced if it's a big life change kind of shifting into that everyday habit, which it is for those in their twenties who are just entering full -time work.
And it's probably why we see so much burnout and dissatisfaction in that age group.
So burnout, it can happen pretty fast and is projected into all areas of life.
It doesn't really help anyone maintaining a nine -to -five schedule.
It doesn't help the individual or the employee who has a group of tired, exhausted, unfulfilled young professionals aspiring for better things and greater pleasures of life.
And it's not just the nine -to -five long working hours and blurred boundaries between work life and private life.
They're pretty common amongst young professionals and for employees.
It's also incredibly subjective.
But it's interesting that you talk about how you shifted the dynamic because I feel like when I've done a lot of work with my own therapist around my attachment style and all that comes with that.
And I think it doesn't just have to do with your parental relationships.
You know, as a child, I was really bullied, was really badly bullied and emptiness, emotional instability and depression.
And in the long term, how do you recover from repeated cases of burnout?
Or do you just adapt and begin to detach and close off doors to other areas of your life that might be contributing to your schedule?
Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is by trying to recover from the exhaustion of monotonous office life, you might actually begin sacrificing other elements, such as sleep and passion projects.
And it's socializing to adapt because so much of your day is being taken up by your work.
And it really only leads to you becoming a bit of a shell of yourself.
And I found this quote that I think really captures this pattern of thought.
So work time actually is life time too.
And I don't want to spend my lifetime only at work.
And when I read this, I would stand up to myself and would attract people who treated me badly, who were almost cruel or super ambivalent towards our relationship.
I don't know how to do it.
Again, you didn't know what love was.
Of course, of course you equated that to love because you said, I felt unlovable.
People didn't want to be my friends.
And the thing is, that was the reality you create to yourself.
And when we feel that way by ourselves, it doesn't matter what's happening on the outside.
We don't see it. And eventually you grow up and you realize, wow, all these people around me are trying to love me.
And I'm not even seeing it because I'm so focused on the people who don't love me because I grew up feeling unlovable.
So again, you don't know what love is.
So then you only then end up being drawn to people who don't.
And the next thing you can do to your position is this kind of capitalist cog and it strips you of your health and it strips you of your individuality.
So this is the question.
If the nine to five causes depression, dread, fatigue, burnout, why do young people feel psychologically pressured to submit to it?
And we have a guest to explain this a little bit.
And I welcome her in just a second.
So welcome, Erin. Hello.
Hi. How are we all going this time?
Day, night. With love.
And that's the thing that a lot of women do.
And I've tried to talk about that before.
And of course, some people may not agree with my opinion when I say, well, Dachuan sucks.
But I believe it's genuinely important, especially if you're someone who still has to figure out your emotions.
Around this time. Around this time.
Definitely. Yeah, I think so.
And, you know, an avid listener of the podcast and also a bit of a nine to five expert.
I don't know. I feel like you were the first one of our friends to really jump into that kind of way of living.
I think I was. Yeah.
Yeah. I think there are a couple of other people, but I started my nine to five job in August last year.
So that's almost a year.
And she was five. Still doing uni at the time.
I was still doing uni at the time, which is a terrible idea.
If anybody ever says to you, do a university degree and work nine to five Monday to Friday at the same time.
Don't. Don't listen.
They are not your friend.
They are not your friend.
Run in the opposite direction as fast as you can.
How many courses were you doing?
So I'm eating a cookie by the way.
I was just like the clinical associated with happiness, but also bonding that is released.
It's no wonder that so many people, I think, find themselves they've had sex with someone and then suddenly they're like, oh my God, I'm attached.
You've got to also know what you want.
I started doing this thing where I realized that I was very actively going for people who I actually didn't even respect or have anything in common with because I was like, oh, you know, well, then they'll never leave me and I'll feel loved.
And it basically like retrained my brain into not feeling that I actually deserve the love that I wanted.
So now I like have.
I like went to my. I hate to remind you.
I know your concept of time is my concept of time is short, probably due to being in an office, a work slave, a work slave for a year.
There's a lot of sorry, the jingling again, the cat, please cut it.
Please cut the jingles out.
But nobody wants it.
So, yeah, I've sat in a room in an office building breathing in other people's air for a year.
How terrifying is that?
But it's it's one of those things that I think we've talked about this a lot, but being able to.
I hate my job, but I only work three days a week and I know I was like, what are you interested in?
He's like, I don't really know, like stress about what I was spending money on.
And now I can go out for drinks with friends.
I can treat friends.
I can buy Ubers, Ubers.
Yeah, I do. I guess I try to still be do it all within reason because I'm not earning the largest amount of money.
But it is nice. And that is a certain amount of privilege associated with that.
That I certainly I don't want to take for granted.
But also, as I've said, I feel like it's good because you're kind of being like, oh, yeah, let's talk about the positives, because obviously it's not modern day slavery.
Like we really make it like I know a lot of the early part of this show was me being like, fuck the nine to five.
My life's so hard. Like I get paid, you know, in the top two percent to do nothing.
I don't do nothing.
I think that I actually do quite a lot of work.
But like, you know, Aaron's made a very good point.
This is something you signed a contract voluntarily.
Like, you know, you're getting into you get a full thank you.
It's suddenly the position I'm in at least is a lot better than.
I wish I learned how to love myself sooner.
But then I also think I needed to have all these life lessons.
But I guess if I was being unrealistic and more dream in Dreamland.
And as a school year.
Yes. If I could have the same outcome as now, if nothing would change, it's something that I could wish I learned faster.
It's probably how to love myself and how to walk away from a partner that was never going to love me because it was never advocating for positive change in your workplace.
Yeah. I mean, it's a very socialist episode, I think.
And I don't know. I also think we were talking because we had dinner before this and we were talking like I know you can't really get into it because you don't want to get sued.
To whoever someone from your work was.
Yes. I was about to say someone's name, but you know whose name I was about to say.
But yeah. But I also think that sometimes they don't always have your best interest at heart.
Like you've had a pretty shitty experience whereby they were pretty standoffish about letting you be flexible.
And it really kind of wrote raise those questions of like why am I being forced into a nine a nine to five five day work week when a I'm not even being productive.
It's really bad for my head.
Wait, you just asked your dad for advice and you guys just hug just like that.
That's so weird. She goes, do you not hug your dad?
And I go, well, I don't even know what are you gonna do.
But if I tried to hug him and he was like, Ew, why are you touching me?
That's so not our dynamic.
It's weird. So it took me years until and I never would say I love you to him because I was scared.
He would laugh at my face or he would reject me and I was scared of the rejection and that kind of created my the rest of my identity.
Where it was around the male gaze where I was insecure enough that I stayed with my ex for so long and I was I was just there to be pretty and have sex with my boyfriend while he was cheating on me.
But that was my role and I still didn't know who I was.
So when I one day as I used to see you your whole life, where are you gonna work?
What are you gonna do?
What are you gonna be when you grow up?
I hate that question.
Every time you see, I can't say that because they listen to this, but like, especially older people will often ask that.
And it's like, why do I need to answer you?
I'm 21 years old, 22 years old.
Like I don't know. Also, it just puts this whole emphasis on like, what are you gonna do for work?
Like work is your whole life.
And I remember I told someone like, I'm gonna take a year off.
And that's my and when I created daddy issues, I created an alter ego because at this point, I had no idea who I was.
And I felt some invisible.
I had no identity. And the people created me.
Because when I started posting random things anonymously, because I was anonymous for almost two years, is when I suddenly got to see, oh, other people can relate.
Oh, I thought I was alone.
Listening to a lot of other podcasts.
Of course, this podcast loyal listener.
Yeah. What do you mean you're listening to other fucking podcasts?
But I've listened to a lot of podcasts that are talking about finances and careers.
I like, I, there's a beautiful, beautiful Facebook post out here.
Out there in the world, rather.
And it basically says, what's your dream job?
Question mark, I simply do not dream of labour.
Yeah. And that's exactly, that's exactly how I feel.
Like I really until I started having three days on the weekend for myself and four days during the week for work, I had no balance.
And if you're not, I'm sure that there's people with really amazing jobs out there that fulfill them.
And that's what they want to do.
But I often sit at my desk and just think, oh my goodness, what I would give to be outside.
And I stay out the window and I go, why am I?
So I started doing that.
It was a practice. I started on the phone when we were about to talk on the phone, barely, but we're about to hang up and I would say, wait, dad, hold on.
It was like, what? I'm like, I love you.
And it's like silent, you hang ups.
Then eventually I'm like, wait, dad, I love you.
Silence stays on the phone, stay on the phone, hangs up.
Then eventually, dad, I love you.
Silence. Me too. Hang up.
Then eventually I love you.
I love you too. I know.
It's so sweet. That is really sweet.
And then eventually started, you know, trying to hug each other and all that.
And now I have my day that brings me joy.
I have my day of life admin and then I have my day to do whatever I want.
Yeah. So like all of the stuff that like the relaxation, the laundry.
Oh, I guess that's life admin.
But you know what I mean?
Like the stuff that's like you have to do, like maintenance kind of stuff.
Look after your plants.
Look after my plants.
Hours of my life go to my plants.
It's fulfilling. It is.
It is something I care about.
And I also remember speaking of like you being at your desk being like, I just want to go outside.
I remember being terrified when you told me when you're working at your old job.
Yeah. And that building languages and all that and attachment cells.
And I got to learn that my father did try his whole life to love me.
I just didn't know because my dad's love language was putting a roof.
Oh my God. Sounds fucking terrible.
Like you. Yeah. And I mean, the other thing I do because I really don't enjoy sitting inside all day is I eat lunch outside.
I try to do that as often as I can.
And I cycle to and from work and I was saying recently to my housemate, shout out to her if you're listening.
Hi. That my favorite part of work now is not work because work would never be my favorite part of my day.
But actually cycling to and from work and doing exercise because that's how I built in looking after myself when eight hours of the day, which in winter is all of your daylight hours gone.
Literally nothing. Literally nothing.
We live in Canberra and it's like sunsets at five.
So if you're working nine to five, you don't get daylight hours.
And so that's my motivation to exercise is I cycle to and from work because I can luckily, which is obviously not something that everybody can do.
But that really, really helps me and helps maintain my mental health.
And I think the really interesting thing actually.
Issue within their family.
Like so many people just kind of get to the point where they're like, this is how it's always going to be.
But you fully changed.
You healed your generational trauma.
You genuinely did that as as a single individual.
You sat back and were like, this is mine to fix.
And you did it. And that's nice.
It's so deserving. You're so deserving of that as well.
And what do you think when I really want to pick up on what you talked about when you talked about love.
And I had this realization today when I was leaving work.
And just quickly, disclaimer.
I don't know about you.
I love my job. Like I love the people I work with.
I'm very, very different.
I'm so glad that you feel that way.
I love people in my work, but I don't think I share the same sentiment.
I go to work to get paid.
And hopefully one day.
Well, me too. Like, I wouldn't go if I was a volunteer.
There are people who would go to work if they weren't being paid because that is.
They've been brainwashed.
That's why. Simple explanation.
It was like people, no, don't get it.
It's also like people who volunteer in old age.
I'm like, I get it, but I'm also like, I don't know.
Actually, the love languages you didn't get as a child.
Can't do anything other than work.
I actually really like volunteering though.
But if it's like, I don't know, maybe I'm just dissing what I haven't tried yet.
Yeah, I think it depends what volunteering you're doing.
I find a lot of satisfaction in volunteering because I know that what I'm doing actually contributes.
But you're outside.
Because you often do tree planting volunteering.
Yeah, not always. Not always.
I did volunteering for a while where I worked in a vinny's.
Like equivalent of vinny's overseas.
And I loved that. That was amazing.
That was a lot because of human connection as well and being able to talk to people.
I actually didn't think that.
Yeah, and I volunteered for a group called Sea Change who are non -profit in Canberra.
And I do that because I like it.
And I think I like the feeling of contributing to being part of a community.
That's like a big value for me.
So. Community is another big thing we should talk about.
Yeah, definitely. But yeah, I don't know.
And I think that's probably what I do enjoy about work, is having like a network of people.
Yeah. That's what I was saying about my work.
Like, I really love the people I work with.
Like the things I do feel somewhat meaningful.
I have responsibility.
And I think that is really important, by the way.
Like, it's like you never answer my text.
You don't call me. Then you just tell me I'm amazing.
Like, what does that even mean?
And that's when I sat down.
Instead of attacking my sister back and not speaking to her.
Whatever people like to do these days.
I realized, wait, why would she say I'm shallow?
I don't get it. I'm sure that I love her.
And then I realized, wait, does she not feel loved by?
Life is too short. I know.
That's what I used to say.
You have the option, too.
Life is way too short to sit in a job.
And especially, I think, while you're young, and you don't have a mortgage, you don't have kids.
You don't have looming financial responsibilities.
Why not? Yeah. And this is the thing about being in your 20s.
Like, a lot of us do have that freedom.
And it's like, why do we submit to something that doesn't work for us?
And I had that. Like, my friends used to always joke with me.
Like, you're a notorious, like, oh, how many jobs are you working now?
Like, where are you working now, Gemma?
Because I would constantly change.
But I have this really very strong feeling.
Like, right now, world is my oyster.
Yeah. So much freedom.
Why would I stay in a workplace that I don't feel valued in?
Working hours, I don't feel valued in.
You know, it just isn't worth it.
And it's not worth it when you're young and you have so much health and staff.
It's not priority for me to answer people's sex right away or to call.
So I'm doing what I know best, which is, hey, you're doing great.
Or you look so cute in that outfit.
Because that works for me.
But for her, it's shallow.
So once I realized that, my phone's always on do not disturb her with my sister.
I removed that. So she texts me.
I answer right away.
I always call her. I check in with her.
Now the pandemic's over.
I make sure to spend time with her.
Because I know that's what's important to her.
Is it one of my, it is technically one of my leveling, which is now.
But in the past, was it?
No. But because I knew that's how she felt loved, I made the effort to do that.
So I think it's the same thing with couples as well.
You should ask each other or your friend.
And I think that's, you know, that's obviously a value as well.
If you do have that kind of balance.
But my psychologist, I'm not going to name her, but shout out to you.
Shout out to you. Tell her to listen to this.
I will. I will tell her.
I think she'd like it.
Get it recommended to her patients.
Get some more of the listeners.
Many people in Canberra, public servants.
I would say the majority of our friends, I would say almost all of our friends work in jobs that either serve the public service or are the public service.
So from you as well.
And you have to adapt them to different circumstances, especially in relationships where you really love the person.
And I think a familiar and a sister relationship is such a good example of that.
In the public service.
And I'm able to go down to four days.
So we get the moment because of the flexibility with that.
But anyway, so she was talking about this concept of happiness.
If you are not somebody who loves to work and work as your life, happiness is not just going to strike you at work like a lightning bolt from above.
And you're not just going to sit there and become super deliriously happy.
It's not going to happen.
And all my life, I think, because of the conversations that everybody has around careers and work and what you're going to be and finding fulfillment through what you do.
I always thought that if I found a job that fit totally right, I would just experience insurmountable happiness.
Like a dream job. Like a dream.
Oh my goodness. The concept of a dream job.
Abolish it. Abolish it.
The concept of a dream job.
Hate it. Because she literally said, even if you work in something that you're completely fulfilled in, it is scientifically impossible to be happy.
Yeah. Eight hours of that day.
Yeah, true. You can't.
Yeah, or to be stimulated.
Or to be stimulated.
Or not born. Yes. Because I love you.
And I was like, and then it completely changed.
And now I'm much better at receiving gifts from people when I like, you know, when they've really thought about it.
It was the only way he knew how to express himself.
Yeah. And it was so sweet.
It was really sweet.
He like, yeah, he was a good boyfriend.
Shout out to that boyfriend.
He was a goodie. Before we wrap up, I do want to ask just like one final question here, because I feel like a lot of what we've spoken about today is navigating our childhood wounds.
And these versions of our younger self that we have to adapt and bring in.
I have lunch with her almost every day.
I love it. Half an hour to just chat shit.
Yeah. About the world.
Yeah. Not the public service, though.
We never chat shit about the public service.
Totally numb. We would never talk about work on our lunch break.
No. Abolish work. Yeah.
Actually, you shouldn't talk about working on your lunch.
You shouldn't. We had, sorry, just to interject.
We had this moment.
No, it's like we were having dinner just like hanging out, and we got into like work chat.
And I like came and we haven't seen each other for like a week.
Gusting. I was sitting on the couch and I got into work chat.
And I really had a moment where I was like, I always promise myself, did you ever do this when you were a kid?
You're like, I'm not going to work in nine to five.
Oh, yeah. People who talk about work on their free days, they're so lame.
And then there I was.
I have never. And everyone else is just as insecure as you are.
That's the biggest lesson that I would tell.
For a year of my life.
Wow. And I have many moments during the day where I sit there at my computer and I go, what the heck is going on here?
What am I doing? Crazy.
What am I doing? But, you know, it's skills gaining.
I get to. It's the way of the world.
It is the way of the world.
It's one of those things.
And I don't think anybody preps you for it.
No. Well, I actually think maybe they do like school kind of preps you for it.
Think about like going to school when you're, but that's the thing.
I had this thought and not in a good way that it preps you for it.
Like a whole life way condition to give up the hours of our day to something that we might not always see a purpose in.
Like you go to school from 8 .30 to 3 .30 and then you know, you go to work from nine to five, like.
I used to fall asleep in school classes.
Yeah. I'm sure you would have.
You would have been so bored.
How can you sit down for that long?
Anyway. So in terms of creating happiness in your workday, so you don't feel like that, like me sitting at my desk going, what the fuck am I doing?
Having an existential crisis.
Having an existential crisis every single moment.
You know, she was like, go get coffee.
If that's something that you like, do something in the builds connection.
If that's something you like, you know.
I agree. One of my friends said this to me the other day, and it really resonated.
It was like, you will never be judged by someone doing better than you.
No one doing better than you is ever going to judge down on you because they know.
You know, that makes me feel, I really needed to hear that.
That makes me feel so much better.
Thank you for saying that.
I'm going to write that down.
That was really good advice.
Because I was like, wow, real existence.
But let's talk about making the most of your off time, because you do a really good job at that.
Do I? Yeah, you do it.
You're so good at it.
You always like, you just prioritize your friends.
You do things that make you happy.
Like she works nine to five and she still has time to volunteer.
Like, I've been volunteered for about six years.
Well, I know it's what you value, right?
I don't value work.
So I think I do put a lot of time and energy into doing things.
Like on almost every day that I work, because I work four days at the moment.
On two of those four days, so 50%, I have a set activity that I know I will be doing every week.
And then the other 50 % of that time, I usually fill with spending time with friends.
Yeah. So I go to poll on Tuesday night, which I love.
So that's like my first episode.
She's more thinking, okay, don't want to listen to this or not.
You know, and then she goes back to her multi -billion dollar company.
Meanwhile, we're just here, like, letting little trolls ruin our days.
So it's a good thing to remember.
That's a really good advice.
Thank you. I'm glad you liked it.
Well, thank you for coming on.
Of course. Thank you so much for having me.
It was honestly probably one of my favorite episodes.
I'm so excited. I'm so excited.
I hope that everyone who is listening right now learned something, enjoyed it, and let you go and listen to Almost Adulting and follow Daddy issues on Instagram because both are incredible slices and corners of the internet.
Yeah. I think that is a big thing to talk about.
That's a big trend, especially in camera where a lot of people have disposable incomes and no children.
And a job that means that they have both days on the weekend off.
Yeah. So it's also a lot of young people.
Like, I feel like most of the people who are listening, but it's a lot of people who are under the age of 30, moved to for the APS, and have just come into heaps of money off and moved out of home.
That's a full circle moment for me.
Thank you, everyone, for listening today.
If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five -star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're listening right now.
If you feel cold today.
Well, I need to be drunk.
Yeah. Well, that's Canberra.
Yeah. In Canberra, there's not much to do.
If you're okay, we're not really outdoorsy people.
We have a lot of friends who, you ride your bike, but we have friends who are like, go to the snow.
Ultra marathon runners.
Ultra run, ultra marathons.
Chat, Kate. Yeah, Tenea, Lucy, they always go skiing.
They always cycle, Meg.
I think there's a lot of people who do the weekend activities that require traveling and then your whole weekend is spent camping.
I wish I could be that person.
I think we should work on it, maybe.
Hey, we're going to Braidwood this weekend.
We are. We're going to Braidwood for this weekend.
That's making the most of your weekend.
Yeah, but this is the thing.
We need to, we got off trip.
Well, actually, quickly.
Yeah, please. Sorry.
We often get off track in our conversations in case you haven't noticed.
That's the thing, right?
And if you have three days a weekend, three days on your weekend, you can have a day going on a little trip.
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On my couch with my cat.
Am I drinking tea? Drinking tea?
Am I 50? No. What happened to my like 20s?
Yes, but this is the thing because you always have that like what happened to my 20s?
What happened to my young years?
Where were they? What did I do?
Yeah. I blinked. Yeah, it was gone.
And now I've seen in an office.
Yeah, I know. Now you sit in an office.
And I think that is a thing that really like because this is the time to be young and like we're talking about psychology here, our brains don't really want to be pushed in.
We're still developing.
So our brains are seeking new stimulation, new memories, new experiences.
So you often say like there's nothing to do on the weekend.
A lot of people have disposable income.
Go out and get drunk, go out and drink and forget that, you know, and then forget that you have to go to work in a day.
Then you know, it's awful because then you get really hung over and then your whole Sunday is gone anyhow, so now you only have a one day weekend.
You know, there is actually...
There is actually a formula to making your days good.
What is it? I've told you about this before, right?
No, you have never told me about this.
Really? No. So again, my beautiful psychologist, shout out.
She said that when I started having my Mondays off, she said, okay, that's great.
Don't spend all day on the couch resting because whilst rest is great, you need to do something that makes you feel fulfilled.
And so she said that you need to do something on that day that brings you joy.
So something that you really like.
So that could be like spending time with friends or...
Cooking something nice.
I often like do a little bit of planting, like a new little plant, plant some seedlings.
Painting. Painting.
Reading. Reading. Something that is practical.
So prepping dinner for next week.
Laundry. I often try to clean every Monday so the house is nice and clean for the week ahead.
You need to do something that is cognitive.
So it like itches the scratch in your brain.
So an easy one is watching a documentary.
Scrabble. Scrabble.
Scrabble. Crosswords.
Crosswords. Scrabble.
I guess. I haven't thought of that one.
Or like researching a topic that you're really into.
Or like a new qualification podcast about something scientific.
That's kind of my role of interest is like science and the climate and stuff like that.
Or like doing a bit of reading.
You read the... I read Heaps.
You read it so much.
But you read really intellectual stuff.
I don't think so. I think I just read really weird novels that are kind of whack.
But you were talking about reading that article.
Oh yeah. So my friend got a New Yorker subscription.
That's right. And when he's finished with them he gives them to me.
And I read this really insanely good article about the rise of ovarian cancer in rural Alabama and the intersection between that and Medicaid and how...
Yeah. This is a real big deal.
But it's a really good article.
So that's something that's cognitive right?
Yeah. And it actually was really fulfilling because I read it right before bed and I felt like I'd done something that challenged my brain rather than just pressing a button on an Excel spreadsheet.
And then you've got to do something that's physical.
So exercise. So go for a walk.
I love going for a walk up a hill where I live at the moment.
And if you time it right you can see a little sunset.
Oh. Which is gorgeous.
That's like a combination of joy.
A combination of joy.
All the others. All the others.
I forgot the joy. So something that brings you joy.
Something that is practical.
Something that's cognitive.
And something that's physical.
There you go. That's the equation.
That's the equation.
So if you do all of those things in your day.
Yeah. Then... You'll feel better.
You'll feel better.
But I don't want to say you'll be happy because happiness is a construct.
But... It is. That really helps me.
And that makes me feel like I've...
I think sometimes it's a big push to be a photographer.
What does productivity look like?
And the rise of the that girl...
Oh yeah. Trend on Instagram.
Which we can talk about for hours so we won't go into it.
We'll do it on our other episodes.
But... That's also tied to like professional success.
And like having everything put together.
And like a big part of that is like having the job.
Or like working towards the job.
And I think what we're really talking about here is like...
If we took the job out of the equation or the 9 -5 job.
Would everything really fall apart?
Or would everyone get a little bit happier?
Like... Universal Basic Income.
Just look at the studies done with Universal Basic Income.
And how those that want to work work.
People who find joy in working work.
And people who don't.
Get to pursue what they actually love.
And I feel like everyone falls into place of doing things that like...
You know. That they would enjoy.
Like and that would actually they'd be good at.
They'd be specialised at.
You would have more productivity and efficiency I think.
Because you wouldn't have a bunch of people who feel compelled to work.
But not motivated to work.
Which is a huge thing I'm sure you've seen.
Like so many people who are like...
Oh I've got to go to work.
And when they get to work.
Do you really think they're going to be there like...
Yeah I'm at work. Like let me put in everything I've got.
Let me really commit to this.
No. They're not going to flip and do that.
Especially when you're in your 20s or in your 30s or when you're young.
And you have so much other shit that you want to do.
And I just think like...
Yeah I just don't think that it necessarily works.
And I think with what you were saying about that equation.
You've got these four things you need to prioritise.
Do you find it easier to do it on days when you're not working?
Or days when you are.
Oh I don't think about it on days I work.
Because I simply do not have time.
There we go. Because by the time I have woken up.
Yeah. I've got myself to work.
Being at work. Come home.
I've got what three or four hours left in the day.
And most of that is spent eating dinner or having to cook dinner.
So you're home by five.
You want to be in bed by ten.
Yeah. Yeah you want to be in bed by ten.
So you don't feel like absolute crap the next morning.
You've got to shower.
You've got to tidy up.
Do whatever you need to do in your house.
Yeah. Take care of yourself.
Take care of yourself.
Eat. So what I'm at the end of the day often as somebody who is a little bit introverted.
I often just sit and watch television.
Because I'm like I do not have the mental capacity to do anything else that is slightly challenging.
Or you know you go and do something that is good.
Like you go to netball.
There's your physical thing and there's your joy thing.
Not really practical but yeah.
Like physical and joyful.
There's two things that are really nice.
Somewhat cognitive.
But it's also like but then you have less time to take care of yourself.
Completely. So it's this whole thing of it's like when eight hours of your day are gone.
And the first three hours, two hours I've spent just fucking getting ready and going to work.
Well I lie in bed for an hour because I literally don't want to go to work.
Oh terrible. I always get my alarm ten past seven but I get up at seven forty.
Yeah. Because I like to wake up and then be like I get to snooze a little bit.
Because if I wake up at seven forty I'm going to be like.
It's just not going to go well.
Yeah and I've really been cutting it thinner and thinner.
Like today I woke up at seven fifty and I was like shit.
Yeah. I got forty minutes to get out the door.
Like I've actually I managed to perfect it down to fifteen minutes getting out of the door at one stage when I just was so sad about going to work.
I couldn't get out of bed.
Which is not a that's not a good space to be in and I'm not there anymore.
When I first started working my nine to five job.
And there have been occasions as well that I have literally had to like I've not been able to get out of bed in the morning and I've slept in and then I've woken up at eleven.
And I've had to call work and have a chat to them and be like hey this is going on.
My mental health is not great at the moment.
And luckily they've been really understanding.
How much of that do you think was tied to work or do you think it was just like a balance of other things?
I think it really it really was tied to work and it was tied to the fact that I had no time for myself and I was just so exhausted.
And my mind was just not able to cope at all.
And I think as well like if you have a mental illness like I find it really important to have time to prioritize just looking after myself.
Because sometimes looking after yourself is quite difficult and sometimes it does like take time to do things that other people could do quite quickly.
So part of that is like if I have more time on the weekend it is easier to do stuff like that.
No that's a really big thing and I'm glad that you kind of recognized that and kind of took control and were like yeah this needs to change.
But it's you know and you were really lucky that they were somewhat flexible around that.
But do you think if you weren't working your nine to five what do you think you would be doing?
Or is that too much of a scary question?
No. Sorry I'm taking a moment to think.
I had a concept at one stage of really wanting to be able to do wolfing which is like working on an organic farm.
What's a wolfing? W -O -O -F?
F? Maybe just one F.
And so basically you work on an organic farm for free in exchange for like shelter and food.
Wow this is a real socialist episode.
Universal basic income free accommodation.
Yeah well because I think I really enjoy doing things where they're super practical.
And whilst I did not grow up in a farm by any shape or form I love plants which you know.
Yeah she does. I own a lot of house plants.
I'm staring at them all right now it's about 15.
They are very hard to miss.
They are in your face.
Well there's 15 on that one table alone.
I know it's just the whole houses green.
And then you just look around and there's even more.
But yeah I just love the concept of like maybe living a commune.
Yeah. Oh gosh that's a terrible thing to say.
No it's not it's not at all.
I feel like it's very like basic.
No it's not but if it's basic we have to also examine like why do so many people want to do like how many people listening have those fantasies dropping everything and going and living in a van or traveling the world or moving to a new country or like living in a commune.
I think it's super stigmatized because it's the absolute other end of the spectrum from what a capitalist society expects of you.
And sometimes that's like you're trying to be like unique.
Like look at you go.
It's like actually maybe you're just doing the thing that's right for you and you just are scared that you can't do it.
Well who who is meant to be living in an office.
No one not living sorry.
Well practically. Yeah.
If you consider you're spending how much.
Well 35 percent of your waking hours at work but that does not include you know the time spent getting ready for work the commute.
Like I'm what like an hour commute every day.
Oh my goodness. Like I have to leave 30 minutes earlier and then it takes me 30 minutes to get home.
It's another hour. Then you have to fucking get ready for work.
Then you have to depress from work and you have to have a shower.
And then you know if you want to go to the gym like it's just all these things that become so much more limited.
Whereas if you worked on a commune you really have a lot more time just to actually exist and know yourself.
And I think that's so important.
And what working in an office does not do is allow you space or time to be an individual be an individual because that's the last thing that capitalism will want.
Can you imagine the world will fall apart.
If people actually realize that.
And again if this is your golden life I'm not dissing it but moving up in a workplace.
What is it like what is it going to serve you.
What are you going to get from that.
Yeah. Apart from like a weird narcissistic sense of power.
And money. And money obviously.
Yeah I thought this as well because I think when I was in high school I was really like all I want to do is make heaps of money and be super successful and everyone admire me.
And I did. Why did you want to do that.
Because I didn't have anything else that I thought would bring me meaning.
Wow. So when I. That's the thing because I was like this is what I've been taught will bring me meaning.
This is what I imagine people admire people who are rich people admire people who are successful and I'm so dependent on people admiring me.
And then I got to uni and about my second third year I was like really restructured that whole idea.
And I was I just had this moment where I was just like that is actually not going to work for me.
It's not going to work for me because I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I do work nine to five now.
But is your life goal to become the CEO.
Hell no. Hello. No.
You're not a hypocrite you just exist within a capitalist society.
But also I'm working because I know that I need money to go off and do the things that I want to do.
And I think I've also been able to do other stuff alongside it.
Like I do this podcast like have heaps of time for other things in my life.
But yeah I think that that was a huge thing that I had in my mind like I this is what I need for my life.
This is what I want.
And then I had to completely rethink it.
And I used to always be like I can't imagine people who like you're just going to be a bum all day.
I was very conservative.
I'm not now. Obviously discussed in the last episode.
Yeah yeah done a full 180.
But I really think it's like restructuring your priorities and I think a lot of people hit that point where they have that conundrum.
And why do you think people have a midlife crisis.
Yeah exactly. That's I mean like because life crisis is a life crisis because you realize that like what you're doing.
What's it actually.
I think actually quickly.
Covid has had a huge huge like generated huge societal shift into Wow OK life's actually quite short.
Yeah. Life is really uncertain.
We don't know what's going on.
Yeah. So you better do something that you actually enjoy.
Yeah. And family spend time with family spend time with family.
I actually think that as well.
And also just like how many workplaces you know how much we realize that actually you could take time off.
That you could work from home quickly be flexible half pay leave with half pay.
What was that. I don't know that's available to you but it's a bit of a thing in the APS.
If you take leave take leave with half pay if you can afford it because basically for that day of leave or days of leave you will get half your pay.
But that means you get twice as much leave.
Oh if you can afford it.
If you can afford it concept.
I didn't know that was something people could do until like eight months into working in this job.
I want to do that. I don't get what you don't get leave.
Are you your contractor.
Well yeah I just get.
I'm not on a permanent contract.
Yeah. So I'm technically casual but I work.
Well I don't know. But I'm on a semi permanent basis working nine to five.
Oh my goodness. But I think it's just because I started out there as someone who was like just there as like a support person like as a researcher and then I got like promoted not promoted but they didn't get you.
That's how they get you.
I love my workplace but like it's not the workplace that I don't like.
It's the concept of the work life.
Yes. That's a really big thing to distinguish.
Well I truly and I have had a serious existential breakdown about this before now in front of my mom and my brother where I literally lay on the kitchen floor and I cried because I was like why can I not simply receive money for existing.
Why why do I need money.
Why do I need money.
And why do I have to work to a good ist and I can like I can hear the economic bros shouting at me as I say this shut up Brad and that's your name.
Gosh. Something lame like that.
But why. Why. Yeah.
Why do humans like we've created obviously this you should do.
Yeah. But why why did like why did we choose a better one.
Nothing about me existing actually requires dollar dollar bills.
Yeah. Nothing. It obviously facilitates things like health care and somewhere to live.
But then again why does that require dollar dollar bills that require dollar dollar bills.
Yeah we've got to go.
It wouldn't. Well once upon a time it wouldn't have.
I mean you also would have died at thirty five but I also would have died.
Oh I would have died very early on I got sick as a very young child.
I would have been killed off early.
Oh. We do not condone infanticide on the school.
No no no no I'm sorry.
I'm teasing you. No but you're right.
Like why does everything require money.
And that's what I think we were really getting at.
What's the pressure.
The pressure is money.
The pressure is two things actually like kind of what I was saying the pressure to be need to be to be conforming and to be doing what you think is going to give you meaning and work is what has given so many generations of people meaning because that was really a necessity and also money.
And money requires allows you to do other things.
But it's like that it's like another equation where it's like at what point do you not even have the time to spend the money that you are earning because you wanted to spend money on things that you like.
And at what point are you just accumulating wealth and for who.
Yeah where's that going to go when you're dead.
Where's that going to go when you're dead.
And if we throw into this the good old little climate crisis.
Exactly. Working in the background.
If we only have like how much amount of time that we have left.
Which is probably not a lot.
Before things really.
Hit the fan. Hit the fan.
Am I going to spend 20 of the best years that we have left on this planet as human beings before we go extinct.
Sitting in an office.
Staring at a computer screen.
It's like an episode of Black Mirror.
It is like we are living in an episode of Black Mirror.
We really are. But seriously I'm like so I mean if this is a motivation to anybody.
Quit your job. Are you going to quit your job.
Look I need to figure out what I want to do that is not working nine to five and then I will be seriously considering.
And I'm locked in the job that I'm in right now requires a certain period of time.
Yeah to do things in.
So to do things in.
It's like a set a set contract we'll say.
So it's kind of like but if you have the opportunity also if there's younger people who are like.
Because I remember last year I had this whole thing I was like I just want to get a normal job.
I just want to work nine to five and I thought that was going to make me happy.
I was like I just want to do it like that.
No no no no no. Spend as much time as you can.
A center link. If you have that option or B just like doing other things working jobs that are you know might be different hours but like a lot more suitable for your lifestyle.
Having a nine to five job fitting into that lifestyle doesn't actually bring meaning.
It doesn't make you a more mature person.
You don't need to rush to grow up and fit into that.
Because you just give away so much of your freedom.
And even though you might have been told your whole life that that's something to aspire to and work towards sometimes.
It's just not. It's just not.
And you know the grass is always growing on the other side.
But yeah exactly that's what obviously.
But if you seriously like seriously consider what is it that brings you meaning and value.
And joy. And joy. For probably 80 percent of people it is it is not working in an office.
No. Um. It's not for me.
No it's not for you.
Yeah. Oh it is. There we go.
There's a hundred percent out of our sample of two.
So. So obviously. Lessons left.
Peer reviewed research.
Yeah literally peer reviewed because we are peers.
Um. We need to say goodbye because we have recorded 45 minutes.
Oh my goodness. Of this.
But we hope. Well I hope especially that this was kind of an informative look into what it's like transitioning into 9 to 5 work when you're in your 20s.
The psychological shifts and changes that you undergo.
And yeah what it means for your health.
What it means for your sanity and your sense of self.
And why it's probably not all it's cracked up to be.
And yeah I think it was just a good discussion of the pressures that you face to fit into that mold.
Yeah. Even if it's against your own well -being.
Yeah. So thanks Erin.
Thanks for having me.
No worries. You know I love a good chat about work.
Yeah. Oh. No more work chat.
No more work chats.
No more work chats.
Ever again. Can we ban them?
I think we should. I think we definitely should.
Anyhow I hope you enjoyed this episode.
We'll have a new episode next week.
It's the psychology of the breakup.
And yeah spicy spicy.
Juicy episode. Oh yeah.
It's juicy indeed. Everyone's giving me a knowing look.
But thanks for tuning in.
Follow us on Instagram and Facebook and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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To ask burning questions about technology.
From high tech to low culture and everywhere in between.
Join us. Listen to Tech Stuff on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
