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I'm Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table from APM.
As I am getting ready to record this, my dear friend, chef, farmer, and cookbook author their Aberbaerens is flying into town, or rather, she is sitting on a tarmac somewhere waiting for 600 thunderstorms to blow through.
Ah, the joys of traveling in summer.
But summer also means meals in the backyard. We'll get to a really great one later on with Chef Jihyo Kim.
And it means extending your creativity to find new ways of dealing with the zucchini in your garden, a mix of produce in your CSA box, what's popping at the farmer's market, or really, just what looks good at the supermarket.
So I love to eat a little lighter in the summer.
I really love eating fresh vegetables, and today we've got a whole bunch of ways to do just that.
And to start, we're actually going to go a few weeks back in time, back before Abra was thinking about setting up camp at the airport, when she and I took a few of your cooking questions together.
Have a listen. Hey, Abra, it's so great to see you.
Oh my gosh, Francis, I love seeing you.
Well, thank you. I feel the same.
I am especially excited to talk with you because summer's here, and we're definitely going to talk about summer produce.
And I think, you know, because you're on a farm, people always want to talk to you about, like, tomatoes and stuff, but I'm actually curious about the garlic you grow.
Hey, guys, just leave it to Francis Lam to ask me a question that I, like, really, really want to answer.
Because garlic is the, literally, it is the crop that changed my life.
life um and that's like i'm not even being like hyperbolic but so garlic cloves if you'll allow me the dalliance uh garlic cloves are planted usually for us middle of october and then they're you know mulched with straw they overwinter and then they're the first kind of green shoot that comes up in the spring and so that's uh what's considered green garlic so green garlic is the the shoot from that clove of garlic and you can we usually go through and harvest the ones that are skinnier, um, because they're never going to make great full heads of garlic.
And we want that garlic flavor straight away.
And so you can, we grow a hardneck garlic.
And so as soon as it, the garlic itself starts to scape, which is its flower shoot, uh, alliums will propagate both by their flower.
That's their preferred method, or they will propagate through their bulb.
So when When the garlic starts to put up its flower shoe, which is that curly Q, that's when the neck of the garlic is too stiff or too tough to cut and use as green garlic anymore.
So we pull all of those scapes out because then what it does, the plant says, oh, I can't propagate by flower.
And so instead, I'll put all of my energy into creating a head of garlic underneath.
And so it encourages larger growth for the whole head.
and then usually garlic scapes come for us kind of second week of June is when we're starting to harvest them and then we'll harvest the garlic heads at the end of June, early July.
It's usually right around 4th of July and then they get tied up into bundles of 10 and hung in the barn for ideally six weeks which is called curing it and so that's when the paper that's kind of quintessential garlic paper forms and you can use those cloves straight away as uncured garlic that's what the phrase that i know it as um but that uncured garlic i it the flavor dissipates when it's heated so it's perfect for like bruschetta or making garlic bread by scraping the clove of garlic over grilled bread or toasted bread but when you add it to a cooked item it that flavor seems to go away a little bit
um so we usually which is nice because that's the time of year when you're just making a bunch of salads and things like that.
So it's sort of perfectly timed for that.
And then after it's cured, we take them down from the barn, hand brush off all of the dirt and clean them up, trim them up.
And that's when they go for sale.
Usually that's like middle of August if we wait that long.
And then that's all of the garlic that we will have until the next year.
Yeah. So we save back our biggest heads to replant for the next year.
So we continue to improve that seed stock, but then that's why once that garlic starts to get a little shrively or a little soft in kind of December, January, we have a mad dash in the greener kitchen to preserve it all so that we can use it until we have that green garlic in April.
Uh, so the way that we preserve it is we confit a lot of cloves, uh, so slow cook them in oil and then keep them just in the fridge that way.
We'll pulse them up with a little bit of olive oil and salt and put that in really small small containers in the freezer, just like you would buy the jarred stuff at the store.
Fresher, more delicious.
Exactly. Yeah. And we've pickled it.
We've made garlic kraut, all sorts of stuff.
Tum, we'll make a ton of tum in the fall and winter to have that, things like that.
Oh, that's like that fluffy garlic.
It's almost like a mayonnaise made entirely of garlic.
It's the most incredible thing.
It's the most incredible thing.
I still don't really understand the science behind it.
But But yeah, exactly that.
You take garlic cloves, whiz them up in the food processor.
I usually put a little bit of vinegar and salt and then just drizzle in water and some oil.
And it makes, yeah, an emulsification that is like beautiful and delicious.
And yeah, we put it on everything.
And hardcore. I didn't realize that when I'd call you this morning, Abra, that I'd get the entire life cycle of garlic in the field and on the farm.
But that's what you get when you talk to Arab Barons.
She's written three books.
She's written 1 ,200 pages worth of cookbooks.
Ask me a simple question and you'll get a 45 -minute answer.
Well, speaking of simple questions, we have some.
Well, maybe they're not that simple.
Let's find out what they are.
I want to turn to our first caller, Paula.
Hi, Paula. Hi, Francis.
Hi, Abra. Hi, Paula.
It's so great to talk with you.
What do you want to talk about?
Yeah, I have some questions about zucchini.
zucchini. Um, so we live in Michigan.
Oh, an hour and a half.
Great. Well, I have a list so we can work through all of them.
Just one question, but it's, it's kind of a big question.
Um, so we live in Michigan.
We have a, a fairly decent size vegetable garden.
And by, um, late July, early August, we're just swimming in zucchini.
Um, and I'm kind of at a loss to know what to do with it all.
Especially by late summer, you know, I've, we've made a lot of frittata, zucchini bread.
We've left it on neighbors' porches.
We just don't know what to do with it.
We've tried pickling and that's resulted in some like pretty subpar results.
We'll pee, fly any spears.
So I'm curious, Abra, if you have any tips around using up zucchini, a lot of zucchini um especially during this time of year when it's just so abundant um whether that's preservation tips or um cooking tips yeah interested in and anything you have to offer absolutely I mean I think zucchini is one of those like bounty crops I don't know every time I plant it I'm like just plant one plant Abra just only one and I ended up planting six and then there's so much um and it is a tricky vegetable to hold on to I see that uh you said you're in Michigan, and you're from Ann Arbor area.
Is that right? Are you in that area still?
Yeah, a little bit east of Drent.
And I know that you're kind of from this area originally.
Yeah, literally Drent.
Yeah. And so, well, I started cooking at Zingerman's Deli and my chef, Roger Bowser, always kind of bemoaned zucchini as nature's styrofoam.
And And, uh, get away with words that one.
And, um, but you know, what I think about with that is that that's what you're coming up against with zucchini is that, uh, there is a lot of moisture and it is a fairly, um, it's a, it's not a dense vegetable, so it can be tricky to pickle or to preserve because you're managing the amount of acid that it can absorb and also how much water is in them naturally.
So I do a couple of things.
Um, one is that my favorite way, I mean, um, Judy Rogers has a zucchini pickle recipe in the Zuni cafe book.
That is very good. Um, and that I, I usually make that as a fridge pickle, um, but it is very acidic to balance out the density and the, the water content of the zucchini.
So that's a good one.
Um, but then what I end up doing a lot is what's called escabeche.
And so I will, anytime I've got the grill on, I'll grill or roast kind of big planks of zucchini.
And then while it's still warm, you cover it with a vinaigrette or anything that is like tangy.
And it won't last as long as a pickle pickle, but it kind of marinates and gets soaked up and it will live in your fridge for, you know, definitely over a month.
I don't want to to tell you how long I've had it in my fridge, but I'm still here and it does stay delicious.
And it's great to add to like pasta salads or to top grilled meats because it's tangy, but it's still, I don't know, it's still kind of rich. And so it allows, it like goes with stuff really well.
So that's one way that I'll do it.
It's kind of a middle ground of preservation that at least it will get you to like September, October, out of zucchini season.
And then as far as preservation for using in the winter, um, I will try to make a lot of, um, zucchini soup where I just steam it with whatever aromatics, but you do have to add a lot of aromatics to it to balance out that styrofoam quality.
Um, and then also what I'll do is, uh, roast it pretty hard or I don't know.
I mean, at the restaurant we would use the deep deep fryer and just cube it up into kind of, you know, half inch cubes, deep fry it until it's golden Brown and then let that cool.
And then just put that in a Ziploc bags or zipper bags and freeze it.
Um, and then you can pull that out in the winter and either add it to something.
Like if you're making, you know, if you're roasting chicken, you could put it underneath the chicken.
You could put it into soup.
You could top pasta with it, things like that.
But But I try to keep it pretty neutral in flavor so that you can then add seasoning when you're going to use it.
So those are kind of my go -tos.
But Francis, what do you think about zucchini?
What do I think about zucchini?
I ask myself, why is zucchini such a thing?
I don't dislike it, actually.
I don't want to be a label of a zucchini hater.
I just think it's kind of funny that anyone who has a garden has this problem, Paula.
And we're like, why did everyone choose this lifestyle?
I don't really know.
Yeah. It makes me feel like a really good gardener.
So that's a plus, I guess.
Oh, there you go. That's about it.
What you don't get in sort of nutritive and culinary value, you get in emotional value.
That's valuable. Right.
Yeah. It looks nice in the garden.
Yeah. We're talking with Abra Behrens, author of the cookbooks Roughage, Grist, and Pulp.
And we'll be back with more of your cooking questions.
I'm Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table from APM, American Public Media.
Fox Creative. This is advertiser content brought to you by Vitamix.
I just believe in simplicity in everything, simplicity in food, simplicity in tools.
I think just having one really good knife is a total game changer.
I love using mini whisks.
I love my microplane grater.
I absolutely love my Vitamix.
I use it all the time.
My name is Lily. I work at Vox Media, and I have two teenagers.
They are hungry literally all the time.
I grew up in a Lebanese household.
Both my mom and dad made hummus probably every couple days, and I've just continued that tradition.
I think a lot of hummus recipes are too complicated, and I think the best ones are very simple, but I think there are some very important tips that I think are essential.
The ingredients you need to make hummus are a couple cans of chickpeas.
I always, always, always wash my chickpeas.
Two to three lemons.
I like hummus very lemony.
I would say, like, two to three cloves of garlic.
It's always raw. Tahini and salt, of course.
And then my other secret weapon is ice cubes.
It feels so wrong when you're putting them in because you're just like, how is this science going to work?
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I'm Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table, the show for curious cooks and eaters.
We're talking with chef, farmer, and cookbook author, Abra Barans, and taking your summer cooking questions together.
Let's get back to it with her and with you.
ever as you said like one of the things with zucchini is it has so much water but not a ton of flavor so i think about when i'm dealing with like very wet produce like tomatoes peppers i just love slow cooking them for a super long time until so much of the moisture evaporates um you know when they're very stewy or tomatoes you know obviously tomato paste exists so like you can it all the way down to that concentration would that work with zucchini if you just like slow cooked it for a super long time got rid of that water and like concentrate the flavors um i have tried that and it makes a really
what it has going for it is its texture um so it gets very very silky especially with the addition of some olive oil and the thing that will impede that silkiness is the skin of it because the skin seems to get kind of tough um and so it never seems seems to totally break in and peeling a bunch of zucchini to cook it down.
It sort of loses that, that extra little bit that the skin adds.
And so what I'll do with that is use like a big, um, kind of Rondo or big Dutch oven onions, garlic, uh, fennel seed, chili flake, things like that.
And then add that zucchini cook it down and then I'll blend it, uh, to make almost like a Alfredo sauce.
You can make some good like kind of vegan Alfredo sauces with it.
and that freezes well too.
And the way I came to that is because I was making a zucchini lasagna and wanted a little bit more stability in the layers.
So if you mix that zucchini's like slow cooked sauce that's been blended with a little bit of tomato sauce, it holds better.
And that also freezes well.
So you could, I mean, I don't know, Paula, how much freezer space you have. If you're in Michigan and you're like me, you probably have like two chest freezers and a fridge in the the basement um but you can make those in like disposable lasagna pans and then just stack them up in your freezer and then you'll have them all winter um but it is something that like it takes some work uh when the garden is already busy and everything is busy with summer but then you have them for you know midweek wheels in the winter sure yeah yeah and our that's really helpful my producer sally is chiming in by saying
she grates it and slow sauces and butter with a little bit of tarragon and loves that so delicious yum oh that sounds great paula i hope you enjoy this zucchini season and yeah i'm looking forward lots of good things ahead thanks for taking my call thanks for calling in i'll probably see you on 94 oh yeah yep i'll be waving all right let's hop over to annie hi annie hi you guys how are you both today great how are you We're doing good.
Thank you. Thank you for calling.
Yeah, what would you like to talk about?
Thank you. So I participate in a CSA box every summer, and receiving that box is like the best part of my week.
I normally get pretty creative with the offerings, but I struggle to find something delicious to make with turnips, kohlrabi, radishes especially, and rutabaga.
So I'm wondering if you have any ideas.
Yes. I mean, I think you would put on this earth to answer this question.
Well, I feel like this is yeah, this is like the driving motivation of my work is that, you know, farmers like to grow these things, especially in it looks like you're are you also in Michigan?
Yes, I live in Charlevoix.
OK, I was going to say two, three months up there.
And, you know, there's a tremendous amount of food that's grown in northern Michigan, especially in the summer.
or the days are longer.
And so we get a ton of great food, but it often stays a bit colder.
And all of the things that you've listed are brassicas and do better in cold weather temperatures.
And so they're really, really useful for vegetable farms in our area, but they can be trickier to do.
And I feel like this is my driving motivation is to connect those dots a little bit.
So thank you for calling in and for asking this.
um for all of these it's a I kind of think about it a little bit based on what time of year it is usually brassicas do best in the spring and then again in the fall and so a lot of times these end up being sort of fall vegetables that we have in in quantity specifically the rutabaga and the turnips um kohlrabi is I think of it as midwestern jicama that it is very crunchy and juicy and uh I use it a lot in the summer or in the spring when it's out to dip into, like on a vegetable platter.
So if you make a tasty dip, have some kohlrabi cut up and, you know, anything in that sort of raw preparation is great for it.
Also in the fall pairs really well with apple.
And so I'll do a lot of like a grain bowl or a salad that has kohlrabi and apple and maybe lentils or farro or something like that.
but it really is just its kind of primary thing is that it is mild and crunchy um it also stores very well which most people don't realize with kohlrabi it is a it is a true storage crop so if you cut that shock of leaves that's it's kind of like you know mohawk on the top cut those off you can use those leaves just like you would kale or collards or something like that um and then put put your kohlrabi in a paper bag or a plastic bag with a paper towel in it to kind of moderate the moisture.
Stick it in the back of your fridge.
It'll last for two, three months.
And then you can just take it out, peel the skin away, and use it for any number of things like that.
It also grates really well to make a coleslaw kind of vegetable salad in that way.
When you said apple, I have had such a hard time putting my finger on what it reminds me of and that the texture like you're saying that snappiness kind of fibrousness um it definitely reminds me of an apple so it makes sense that you could shred it pair it like in salads and that sort of thing to that end both kohlrabi and turnips and rutabaga I think pair very well with apple that's why I think of them as fall vegetables in a lot of ways and one of my favorite things in this whole world is to roast all of those together underneath you underneath a roast chicken or underneath like a cut of pork,
like a pork shoulder or something like that.
Cause then you get that kind of fattiness from the meat as well.
And all of a sudden they'll, what'll happen is that they all kind of look the same.
So you have this like lovely monochrome visual, but then when you eat them, they all taste different and the apple will be very surprising and very tangy with it.
And if you aren't eating meat, you can also just roast roast them as one big roast like that.
And usually around that time, cranberries are coming into season two.
And so some pop of roasted cranberry with that is really, really lovely as like kind of a autumnal side dish for it.
Perfect. Great idea.
The other thing that I really love about both rutabaga and turnips is that they kind of can also play well with potatoes.
And so any place that you see potatoes, you can usually substitute a turnip or a rutabaga.
And I really like making au gratin roots.
I'm still workshopping the name on that.
But if you slice it thinly and layer them and then pour a little bit of heavy cream and salt and pepper between the layers, sometimes I'll put some lemon zest or some thyme.
And then that makes a great thing that you can bake and serve of along with just about anything.
Yeah. I like those vegetables pureed too.
I mean, if you roast them, they have that, you know, they develop that beautiful caramelized flavor.
Or like if you do them pretty simply, you can like, you know, boil them first and then, but you just puree them with olive oil or butter, salt, and it's delicious.
And to that end too, you know, they don't get gluey the way that potatoes can when you like truly puree them.
But one of my favorite things to do too is, again, I make a lot of kind of like one pot all cooked together dinners.
So I'll sear chicken thighs and then take the chicken thighs out of the Dutch oven, add some onion and garlic and whatever herbs and a little bit of white wine or apple cider is really nice with that to deglaze the pan.
And then I'll put in chunks of rutabaga and turnip and some broth and then then put the chicken on top and then you know kind of you simmer the liquid out of the dish and so it's steaming the chicken from underneath and it's softening those turnips and rutabagas and then a lot of times i'll just kind of mash them so it's like a chunkier mash and that's really it's like super comfort food for me but yeah and then the last one oh i'm sorry the last one on your uh you can't stop the last one on your list is radishes which is like i mean i feel like a radish's fate is just as a garnish constantly.
You know, it's like the bright pop of red against a salad or, you know, I love them on the top of tostadas or tacos or things like that.
But I worked for a really brilliant chef, Sky Gingle, when I was in London, right out of cooking school.
And there's a day I'll never forget where we would put up, you know, staff meal and it was a new menu.
So we had cooked everything on the menu and it was this beautiful food and we put it out for everybody to eat.
And then Skye had to take a call or do something.
And by the time she came back, the entire spread had just been decimated by cooks and servers.
And she was just like, okay.
And she, you know, instead of being annoyed, just went into the kitchen and had a, you know, probably eight red and pink radishes and put them with a little bit of stock and mounted it with a little bit of butter and just poached them.
And then had that with like kind of this brothy, buttery chicken stock with radishes poached in it.
And it was this lovely color pink.
And then she just sopped it up with really nice sourdough.
And like that with a green salad is I think as close to elegant as I will ever get.
But I try all the time and it is so good.
And it is like definitely a, I'm home alone.
This is what I'm having for dinner.
And I I love it. Oh, that sounds great.
Yeah, something so simple, too.
And, of course, the chef would make it feel so specialized and delicious.
Yeah, that's really helpful because radishes are, especially with my family, they like them, but they're kind of like they're just eating them because they know they're good for them.
So I might try that.
I also really love like radish toasts or radish sandwiches, you know, where it's like nice butter or like a dill cream cheese or something like that, And then you just do a big stack of radishes on top, especially with like pumpernickel bread.
That can be a really like winning like lunch for folks.
And if they are too spicy, a lot of times if you peel them, especially on the storage radishes like daikon or watermelon or those beer radishes, the spice lives more towards the skin.
And so you can take it kind of to cut it away.
That's a great tip.
You feel well prepared for all the new roots in your life, Annie.
I do. Thank you for all that information.
Take care. Have a good day.
You too. Bye. Let's take one more call.
We have Lum on the line.
Hey, Lum. Hey. Hello, Francis.
Thanks for the call.
What can we talk about?
My question is, my partner and I love cooking, especially trying out recipes around the world.
Unfortunately, this leaves us with a lot of unused spices for those specific dishes.
For example, we made Ethiopian food recently, but now have a lot of berberi left. Do you have any recommendations on how to incorporate berberi into everyday cooking?
Also, do you run into this issue as well?
Well, actually, I'm curious what you made first. Oh, we made dorowat, and then also a side of lentils, and then also some greens and carrots and potatoes.
Delicious. Yeah, Ethiopian food is, I think, really, not a ton of people in our country know it.
I mean, there are, you know, communities tend to be in pockets.
But the food is so delicious.
And the style of Ethiopian cuisine, I love so much. It's often these like sort of braised vegetables or like deeply braised meats with spices like the berberi mixture.
But you eat it with injera, which I just adore.
It's this very tangy, fermented flatbread.
I guess a frame of reference is almost like if you would imagine a pancake, but chewy and very bubbly, and sometimes it's very sour, very fermented, and I love that.
And it's just a great match with all these stews, and you pick it up, a bit of the bread, and then you use it almost as a wrapper in your hand, and then you grab a piece of the meat or grab some vegetables, and you just, oh, God, I love just sitting around a table eating that.
that. Anyway, do I have a lot of leftover spices?
Yes, all the time. And I'm not great about using them.
Abra, what do you do?
I'm like, no, I just want to go out for Ethiopian food or come to Lum's house and have it made.
Yeah, we have the same issue.
And I think what I try to do, this is going to sound like a little woo woo, but let's just hear me out, which is that I will will often just taste those spices, either like I'll fry a little bit in oil and taste it or, you know, at some point just taste it and then close your eyes and think about what other flavors it's bringing up in your mind.
And then I just pair those spices with that, even if it seems incredibly unconventional or like it won't work or it won't make sense.
If there's something in your mind that's matching those, then it might, it'll work probably.
And so for brewery spice, you know it's a flavor palette that I don't tend to know very well or use very well and I am not a huge warming spice person but it has such an important place in the kind of flavor you know spectrum of a dish that you're looking for you're looking for something that's anchoring that flavor and those tight base notes but then also something that's bringing it kind of up high and acidic and there's places where that can come in so for this particular spice mixture I tend to add them to things like you're saying lentils or something that's going to be able to absorb the intensity
of that spice because it's not it's i mean sometimes they're really spicy but oftentimes it's just very spiced yeah yeah it's not hot right like with chilies yeah i mean berberi um i'm not an expert on it but i think it has like it has chilies and it can be hot but it's usually not like searingly hot it's more like a mellow heat and it has cardamom black pepper a lot of fenugreek um and it has like you said a very warming effect and and almost like a floral but like a dried flower is kind of aroma um and i do think you know the spice cultures and cuisines that are very heavily into spices many
indian cuisines a lot of middle eastern cuisines like Like the specifics of using the mixture of, you know, the ratios of this spice and that spice to create the blend is so detailed and delicate.
And to be completely honest, I didn't grow up with a lot of that food.
I'm not an expert in it.
So often to me, I'm like, wow, it tastes spiced.
You know, like I'm not good at picking out, oh, this has a higher ratio of this versus that.
There are some basic things that I do find work well.
Oftentimes, if you do just sort of like toast, you don't even need to toast it necessarily because a lot of the spice blends are already pre -toasted spices.
But I mean, you can like flavor or infuse an oil or a butter.
Marcus Samuelsson actually, who grew up in Sweden, was born in Ethiopia, but like didn't learn Ethiopian food because he was adopted and raised in Sweden, but that came to him as an adult.
And he talked about how he loves brown butter with berbera in it.
and you can use that like and just like that's almost like a sauce you can put on top of fish or you can season a meat or a fish or or poultry with it before like almost like a spice rub then you cook it and then you like finish it with a butter with that same spice mixture so you kind of get the long cooked version of it the version that's been absorbed and cooked into the food and then the sort of like fresher version at the end or even just sprinkle it on top he has this thing where you can like, use beribera with fruit.
So almost like you would in like Mexican cuisine, we use like chili and lime to season fruit.
You can use some of the spice mixture and like, put it on fruit.
And like, I think of like pineapple with beribera, that would sound so delicious.
So you can play with the spices that way.
Yeah. And I think, I think what I would do is I would think about it, like Francis is saying about something that you're adding to the base.
So we make a lot of lentils, and we make a lot of couscous at our house.
And what I'll do is is fry off some of the spice mixture in oil and then add those grains to it very simply with water.
The other thing you can do is, like Frances is saying, infuse it with stuff.
And one of the things I've made with berberi specifically is sort of an infused honey.
It pairs well with honey in my mind.
And so I'll warm honey with a little bit of water to make it looser, add the spice mixture, and then, you know, kind of let that sit.
And then that, you know, is great just over yogurt, over ice cream.
It weirdly makes a great baklava replacing the cinnamon for it.
I mean, I use less of the berberi than cinnamon for a baklava, but that sort of thing, you know, works really well.
You could also use it for the butter, you know, for that.
And what you're seeing in all of these kind of references is that heat will make the flavor of those spices more accessible, which becomes ever more important as the spices age because they lose those flavor components.
And it takes away kind of any of the like raw flavor from, from that spice mixture.
One last thing with this is that if you ever find that the spices are more intense than you want, as you start to work with them, adding a fat to it will help dampen that flavor.
So if you say were to put it in with the lentils and then find that that was like, you're like, oh, this is too too intense from what I wanted.
Add something like coconut milk and that fat will just dampen those flavors and make it a little bit balanced.
It's like kind of an escape hatch if you need it.
Yeah, gosh, thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for the call.
Perfect, all right.
And thanks, Abra. Oh my gosh, this is like the best. I love talking about food.
I love answering questions.
I feel honored that you all included me.
So thank you. you that's abba barron's author of three wonderful cookbooks roughage grist and pulp and coming up a conversation with chef jiho kim and a cook -along of a beautiful summery korean dish i'm francis lamb and this is the splendid table from apm Fox Creative.
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I'm Francis Lam, and you're listening to The Splendid Table.
So a few months ago, I got to have dinner at a beautiful little jewel box of a restaurant in New York City called Jumak.
The chef, Korean -born Jiho Kim, was actually the pastry chef of Michelin -starred places before.
Then he opened his own restaurant, where he brings his high -flying techniques.
But at the heart of some of my favorite dishes were these really simple preparations, like his dongchimi, a kind of fresh kimchi that you make just by dunking radishes and, in his case, apples, in some saltwater brine for a couple days.
So I wanted to see what a technical chef like him makes for himself at home in the summer.
We got together in the dining room of the restaurant while they were prepping for dinner.
We talked about his culinary journey and then he walked me through making this beautiful, refreshing summertime dish of daikon radish that was spiralized into noodles and he topped it with this simple buckwheat broth and some fish marinated overnight in soy sauce.
It was so delicious.
I can't wait for you to make it.
Have a listen. There's so much about your food that feels unique.
And I can't tell if it's because of, you know, just your own personal creativity or because of the path you took to get here.
But you were a pastry chef, a very esteemed pastry chef for many years before deciding you wanted to switch over and take over the whole kitchen, the savory kitchen.
So why was that? Why did you make that switch?
so uh I'm sure like a lot of pastry chefs will agree uh I spent like a almost plus 10 years as a pastry chef uh top tier restaurants and then I kind of filled kind of like I'm hitting the limit to grow I was there like six and a half years I believe and then after four years uh I kind of settled kind of like uh too comfortable at work I don't feel kind of like a challenge there and And then every day when I come to work, everything is smooth, and then my team did great.
And then I think, it is nice, sounds very nice, but also, I'm the kind of person who loved the challenge.
So at that time, actually, I asked the savory chefs if we can work together at the savory side.
And then also they did need the extra hands, so I offered them my extra hands.
So that's how I end up doing some savory like a culinary start.
Yeah What about savory cooking?
Was new or challenging to you?
So This is all about the formula which is a recipe and then you follow the recipe correctly Then it always comes like a same as you expected it.
Mm -hmm, but the savory Let's say steak, even if you buy a steak, but the steak is of all different shapes, and also there's a recipe, yes, of course, but also a lot of things actually don't have a recipe.
You need to make a decision how you cook it, how you want to do it.
So it's a little bit more exciting.
Patients, yes, there's a lot of art, there's a lot of fun part, but cooking, you need to make judgment a la minute.
And then also that judgment like whatever comes to the situation you need to make success.
And then you will definitely fail some overcooked fish or some over seasoned something.
So every single hurdle we are just jumping over and I like that way too.
So once again you don't like it to be too easy on you.
You like it a little harder.
I'm a very challenged person.
You grew up in Korea.
You came to the United States.
But when you came, you didn't grow up with dreams of being a chef.
You didn't have dreams of being a cook, even.
It was almost by accident that you got a job in a bakery, and then that's what started your culinary career.
Your food definitely has Korean influences, but if you didn't grow up intending to be a chef, I'm guessing you didn't grow up learning to cook Korean food with this goal in mind.
So, how do you educate yourself on Korean flavors, Korean techniques, and how much does that inspire your cooking?
So, I wasn't really inspired by being a chef, no. But I'm sure pretty much everybody loves eating.
So, when I eat Korean food, actually, Korean food is normally rice and some protein, and then we call it banchan, which is side dishes.
And then side dishes, you can just eat as it is, or you can make dishes with the side dishes too.
So there's a lot of ways to kind of create your own meal.
That's the way I cook the food here as well too.
The way I want to eat.
Yeah, so it's the style of Korean eating that really influenced you.
Because the banchan could be very elaborate or they can be very simple like some pickles or some vegetables and quickly cooked.
Or it could be potato salad with mayonnaise Ines or it could be...
Korean potato salad with sugar.
Very weird sound, but actually it's delicious too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that.
So you grew up sort of training yourself because you might have six or seven of these to go with some meat and protein.
And every bite is different.
Yeah, the way I like to eat, yes.
So you're going to do a demo for us.
What are we going to taste together?
What are you going to show us?
So first, I want to give you my summertime.
Actually, I love eating at home.
Like, summertime, so hot.
I want something refreshed.
So today, I'm gonna make a Soba dashi.
So we have a beautiful soba, toasted buckwheat seed.
And then I'm gonna infuse it with kombu, mushroom, and bonito, and then we make dashi.
And then normally, people are makin' dashi, it's like bonito, kombu, and mushroom.
Yeah, it's like a broth.
Yeah. But I wanna give it a little toasted flavor, so I am adding buckwheat.
Oh, cool. So, soba.
And then also radish, I'm going to slice into the noodle.
And then that's going to be like my soba noodle.
Oh, cool. So, soba noodle is actually not like buckwheat noodle.
Soba is going to be the broth.
And then radish is going to be the noodle.
So, that's my soba noodle dashi with salmon. Soy cured salmon. Delicious.
Let's go check it out.
Okay. okay so now we are we are closer to your kitchen you're set up in the beautiful bar of your restaurant um your cooks are working hard right behind this door and so you mentioned you're doing adashi which is a a broth of um in this case kombu seaweed shiitake mushroom you have Bonito flakes smoked so smoked shaved fish flakes and the unique thing is you're infusing toasted buckwheat seeds.
Yeah, so Buckwheat in summertime like it's kind of like a one of like my favorite kind of like a soba tea like cold soba tea It's very good.
And then and also Korea when you order some restaurant like you order the in cold noodle soup and then they give it like little broth from the like the noodle broth Almost like the pasta water.
Yeah, pasta water. Like noodle water.
So the way we eat is like actually it's very classic, traditional.
We put a little bit of soy inside.
And then some people just drink as it is.
Or some people like a little season as kind of like a soup too.
So that's what I get the inspiration.
So I made a little soba tea with a little dashi.
I have to say, when you say buckwheat, it sounds like oh it's just buckwheat just a grain it's not very exciting but then right now I'm standing next to it the smell of it is so beautiful it's very toasty and nutty and you don't have a lot it's just yeah you don't have a lot so I bring it up to boil with like a mushroom and everything and the final I'm going to just add a little bit of bonito the dried bonito flakes yeah and then I will infuse these like a like a one minute oh very short yeah very short Because the beunil is very smoky, so it will be...
Yeah, smoky. Like 30 seconds or one minute should be fine.
And then after the one minute, we're going to strain it.
And then this guy, we need to make ice cold.
So, give me just a second.
So he's disappearing back into the kitchen.
so with the soba i'm going to serve the salmon we cured in soy so soy sauce and that little dashi and a little sugar and then some allium like whatever that's like scallion scallion onion whatever like an alien we put it in and also we put some little bit lemon zest as well and then we cured normally uh 24 hours okay and then so i actually talked about this because i think at home people don't know you can do this but so you buy some beautiful raw salmon and here you've cut it into a fillet.
Not very big maybe like an 8 ounce fillet.
And so you can just let it soak in a combination of soy sauce like you said.
How would you when you make that marinade do you just know by taste that it tastes good?
Normally what I do equal part soy and water like dashi.
Soy and dashi equal part we like bring to boil and then I I normally do 25 % sugar.
And then, you know, allium, whatever.
Here you have two slices of onion and a little bit of scallion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, this is what it is.
And just let it sit 24 hours.
Yeah, 24 hours, I think that's the perfect timing.
And then I have a little filet, it's called a flouk.
And the flouk also, I cured it with a kombu, with a little sugar and salt.
So these two fish will be on top of the dish.
Beautiful. So you just take the fish out of that marinade you pat it dry with some paper towels.
Because it's gonna be a slippery so you need to dry it out.
You should try just as it is for now.
Oh my god you would guess it would be very salty but it's not it's not very Very sweet, still very tender, and silky, but it's a really nice texture.
Thank you. Curing the fluke in kombu.
And the kombu you buy is just the kombu you use to make dashi.
Yeah, yeah. Seaweed that you typically use to steep.
Some chefs they wash it out, and then use it.
But I prefer to use the straight because there's a little salt that is like to me is a more umami flavor.
I mean, it is from the ocean.
So, I think that's better.
So, here, I have some, we call it noodle, which is a radish.
Oh, yeah. So, what kind of radish do you use?
It's just like a daikon radish.
So, you slice it very thin in a noodle.
And then, I'm going to put, this is Shiro Kombu, which is a little softer kombu.
I mean shiro kombu you can buy easily.
Like you can get any place easily.
It's like a pre -shredded kombu.
And then I use a little bit of soy brine from here.
From the salmon? Salmon brine.
Just season it. And then I have some little bit of ponzu.
Okay, so ponzu is a combination of soy sauce dashi and yuzu.
Which is like a Japanese citrus.
Yeah, some people using a lime.
So now, I just stir together the little radish noodles, Yeah, the radish noodles.
Shio kombu. Exactly.
And then let me... Some of this dressing?
Yeah, let me taste it.
Okay, so now what I do, normally, I like to drench the olive oil for the fish.
Okay. Olive oil gives them like, kind of, a little peppery flavor.
and also sometimes when you use a little bit of acid or something kind of oil kind of like a little protect a some texture too okay nice all directly salt on top a little bit of mildew or this half sea salt okay a little bit of a little bit of lemon yeah Okay, so that soba -infused dashi is now cold.
You've been letting it sit in an ice bath.
Yeah. So it's very simple.
Yeah. Just a little bit of radish put in the middle.
Okay. Radish in a bowl?
Like a noodle. So now what we're going to do is just nicely array the fish.
Beautiful. So the radish noodles are in a nice little nest in the bowl and you're putting these beautiful slices of fish on top.
And so you're shaving horseradish.
Horseradish. Give it a little wasabi kick.
Yeah. Now we just need a little garnish.
Herbs. Nasturtium leaves.
Yeah, nasturtium. It looks like a little lily pad.
Yeah. And then a little shiso as well.
You're really going all out on the micro herbs right now, Chef.
And some pea shoots.
Yeah, pea shoots. And then final, which is a little sobadashi.
Here's your cold sobadashi.
Just pour it right in the bowl.
just little bit of pickled ginger this is done okay please try and then share the feedback wow it's so good so there's a lot of texture in that in this dish like you give like you know the kombu like give a little bit kind of kind of jelly texture and the radish give it like a little a little bit of the crunch texture too.
There's a lot of fond texture into it.
So it makes very, like, a kind of pleasant summertime, you know, when it's hot.
It's better, like, perfect dish to try.
No, totally. The radish, I love these radish noodles.
I've never had daikon radishes like this.
But it's so crisp, so it keeps, like, every bite, it just feels so fresh.
And it's sweet, but the savory flavor is from the soy sauce and the dashi.
And then you have this very silky cured fish to go with it.
This is really beautiful summer meal.
Thank you. Of course.
And then I have one more bite for you.
I made it this kimchi years ago.
And then today, first time I open it and then this is like three years old, like we call it Baek Kimchi.
This is very simple.
So the Napa cabbage like we just salt cure and then we just just rest it.
And then... When people think kimchi, they think fiery red chili.
This is not that at all.
This is just salt and a little bit sugar.
So this is what we call Mubeunji, which is three years.
So for the first time today, I opened.
I was very excited when I opened it.
My heart was beating a little bit, little bit.
I hope this is okay, but this is really amazing.
So I'm going to make you a bite.
So cool. What a gift. You've been waiting for three years for this.
Yeah, maybe I knew these days coming How was that it's so beautiful, and you know what because I know it's three years old hmm.
I expected a lot of funkiness But it's not it just has a very deep Mild flavor it keeps going.
Yeah, like the flavor Just keeps going and going going it's a very long flavor.
Yeah, there's not a lot of ingredients You know so plain flavor, but also there's like a depth of the flavor.
Like it's Thai, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, this is not pastry, but it's very scientific.
Yeah, I'm so glad you get to try.
Oh, me too. Thank you so much, that was such a delight.
My pleasure. Thank you.
Jihyo Kim is the Chef of Jumouk in New York City and he shared, well he shared a whole bunch of recipes for us to make that dish.
You can make as many or as few of them as you want.
It'll be delicious however you mix it up.
Find Jiho Kim's Summer Salad with Cured Fish and White Kimchi at SplendidTable .org.
Well, that is our show for this week.
We hope you enjoyed it.
We'll talk to you again next week.
The Splendid Table was created by Sally Swift and Lynne Rosetta Casper.
It's made each week by technical producer Jennifer Lubke, producer Erica Romero, digital producer James Mapoli, and managing producer Sally Swift. Lauren Humpert is our senior podcast production manager.
I'm Francis Lam, and this is APM, American Public Media.
