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It may sound like obscure praise to say someone is an icon in the world of milling, but the folks at King Arthur Baking Company definitely are that, and they are definitely very proud of it.
This unique company built itself on selling flour to bakers, but has since grown to have a whole baking education business, a massive online collection of thousands of recipes, these classic cookbooks, a baking hotline, you can call, and even several actual baking schools.
But through all of that, they never had a cookbook devoted solely to bread.
Until now. The King Arthur Baking Company's Big Book of Bread is a landmark publication.
I just love this book.
Now, I'm not actually a big bread baker myself, but I do dabble, and I really understand how it becomes an obsession for people.
There's something beautiful about, you know, just stirring some things together, making a dough and then giving it time and watching it rise and develop.
It feels like you're nurturing something and in the end, you get to have fresh bread.
It's something I definitely see myself getting more and more into.
And this book is a great place to start.
It's got days -long, hardcore sourdough projects, if that's what you're into, and it also features breads you can whip up for dinner tonight, and everything in between.
So today, we are joined by two of the book's three authors, Jessica Badalana, staff editor, and Martin Phillips, King Arthur's head bread baker.
So hey, Jessica. Hey, Martin.
Thanks for coming by today.
I'm stoked. Oh man, totally a pleasure.
Happy to be here. Well, OK, so like I think literally millions of people.
I grew up seeing King Arthur flour like in the grocery store my whole life.
And I guess I didn't actually quite realize that you do a lot more than sell flour until like everyone else.
I discovered that you can actually bake bread at home during the pandemic.
pandemic. I distinctly remember where I was when I found all these recipes on your website, created by seemingly extremely nice people.
So tell us a little bit about how King Arthur came to be and actually what you do today.
Yeah. I mean, I think flour remains sort of our, oh God, I'm already going to get into a pun.
It remains our kind of bread and butter.
I think people know us for the lines of, right we'll be here all day uh they know us for the flours that they see in the grocery store um but I think it's true that a lot of people don't sort of know you know the breadth and depth of the company I mean we're over 200 years old um but we continue to sort of evolve it's wild it's really really long time for any company um you know and of course yes we have the flours but lots of other baking supplies but more than that it's like we have this very deep resource source of recipes, all of which are free on our website, rigorously tested.
We have baking schools in Vermont and in Washington.
We have a YouTube channel.
We have cookbooks, which we'll talk about, I know, today.
We have a podcast that we're going to launch this spring.
So there's a lot happening beyond just the flour.
Yeah. Well, so the company is 200 years old.
It's 200 plus. It's It's actually almost as old as this country.
There just aren't that many companies that are that old, really.
And, I mean, I guess we've just had flower needs for a long time, but how has it survived?
How has it evolved?
Martin, you've been there a long time.
Maybe you can tell us a little about that.
Yeah, I've been here 150 years.
No, I get in June, I have my 19th anniversary, which seems amazing because, you know, So it's like a lifetime, right?
That's more than a chapter.
It's like a book or two.
Yeah, so how did that work?
Well, it started with the Sands, Taylor & Wood Company.
They were an importer, and it just came down through the family.
And Frank and Brenna Sands are still here, right here in the Upper Valley.
And still, I think, inform us in many ways culturally.
It's really, you know, we were talking about the way that we're a flower company.
And while that's true, and in addition to the – you know, the content, the schools and all of those things, I feel like beneath all of that sort of foundationally is this culture of, um, people who love to make things and share with others, people who celebrate the simple joy of baking.
Right. And I feel like the way that that ties to Frank and Brenna is that very much the ethos of this company was informed by those foundations that they brought.
Um, in, you know, the past 30 years or so, 20 years, the company has transitioned out of that private ownership into the hands of employees.
We're now employee owned.
And so in that sense, we continue their legacy by supporting it with this beautiful culture that we have that also includes things like 1 % for the planet, or we're a certified B corporation, meaning that we have these values that relate to company, employees, our environment, and all of those things.
So that's how a company, I think, stays successful, successful continues to evolve produces something that is a values -based business that we love to share you know with others so I think that's how you do it so there it is there's the secret easy as that okay first have 200 years of ownership in the same family and then decide to turn it over to the employees um that is a really awesome story though and I think that I think I think we're in a period where the relationship between corporate owners and labor is, you know, it's always there's always a kind of tension there.
But right now, I think it feels especially challenging and strained to see a company that is so old and so iconic being out employee owned is it's pretty special.
It's super special.
Yeah. I mean, and I think we all feel like we lift each other up, you know, I mean, and that's not just lip service.
It's like there's parts of the business that I have nothing to do with.
There's parts of the business that Martin has nothing to do with.
But I think, you know, you have this real sense.
We're only, you know, 400 and something employees and you have the sense of like, oh, these people have my back.
Like, we're all looking out for the good of the company.
We're all looking out for the success of our projects.
And man, that feels good, you know?
And I think it's kind of rare, as you said, in a corporate setting.
That's really awesome.
Cool. Well, actually, let's get to, we have a bunch of callers that that we're gonna talk to with you guys um super excited for them to come on the show and i think janine has a question that is really uh at the heart of what you do so hi janine where you calling from yes hi thanks so much for having me i'm calling from the dc area um and uh my question is about the differences with bleached and unbleached flowers um i i've been baking for a long time and i've tended to use the king arthur um the regular all -purpose unbleached flours but i've come across some recipes where they specifically not king
arthur recipes mind you but recipes in general that will state to use bleached flour and i i never buy it so i you know tend not to ever really replicate that recipe exactly and i'm wondering am i missing something, by not using, um, bleached flour, uh, whether that's the bleached cake flour or bleached all purpose flour.
And what is the effect that it has on, um, a baked good, like a cake or a cookie?
Um, what exactly does using bleached versus unbleached do?
Um, that, that's my question.
Yeah, that's a good one.
I have no clue. you want to take that one brandon yeah so so what does that mean unbleached and unbromated so you know you'll see that on our bags of flour um and the reason i mentioned bromate too is because they're often sort of tied together in flowers which are bleached they're often bromated as well out in the out in the world as you come across them and the reason that that's often done is for reasons of strength.
So effectively, you can take a lower protein flour and sort of make it act a little bit more like a high protein flour through the use of those chemicals.
The problem is that they're chemicals and many countries have banned the use of bromate.
So it's not something that we're sort of looking to ingest. In terms of bleach though, Janine, the most commonplace that you'll see that.
I mean, you'll see it in some cake flours, right?
And the reason that they're doing that again is for strength.
But you'll also see it in some of the other white flours that are available at retail.
And again, it's a way for companies to sort of get more out of a lower quality flour.
And I would say that what we are sort of interested in is making flour, flour, which is most beautiful and most delicious.
And so when you bleach the flour, you actually blanch out the carotenoid pigments.
These are pigments that exist in the wheat in the field.
You know, it's like beta carotene.
It's what brings that beautiful yellow hue to a lot of the foods that we eat, you know?
So when a bread comes out of the oven and it has that golden quality, not only is that from the bake, but when you open the bread up, the interior is also yellow.
it's not actually white even though we also often you know call it white bread right and so for us you know choosing a flour which is not bleached um leaves it a little bit closer to the way it was when it was milled it's beautiful in color and it also retains those flavor qualities that we really want you know if you think about bread bread most often is you know there are a few ingredients flour water salt sometimes yeast right right and so what we want to do is start with the highest quality sort of substrate or flour to give us the best quality bread.
So you're basically saying that the reason why people would use bleach is for to make something stronger?
Yeah. So in a cake environment, you know, a beach, a bleached flour would sort of firm the structure.
But there are examples of some unbleached flours out there that do work well for cake.
And I don't want to to get on my soapbox, but King Arthur does have one that I think does work very well.
Which I have, which I currently have in my pantry.
I think it's true. And Martin, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're seeing a recipe that calls for bleached flour, you know, bleached all purpose flour, say bleached cake flour, you can swap in an unbleached flour and nothing bad is going to happen.
Okay. I mean, cause that's what I've done because I never have the bleached varieties, varieties, but I've always wondered.
So, yes, that was helpful.
So I appreciate your answer.
The one other thing that I would add, Jeanine, is that we're really fortunate here, and this goes back to the sort of cultures of the company, to have a baker's hotline.
And basically, it's a team of trained bakers, many of them with lots of professional experience, that are answering phones and sort of addressing questions just like that.
So if as you, you know, get into your cake baking and everything else, you have some follow -up questions.
We'd love to hear from you.
Yes, and I've actually utilized that on your website.
Yeah, it's real people.
Yeah, real people waiting to answer the question, when does that ever happen?
You know, Janina, I also want to let you know you said you're in the D .C.
area, and we're opening a store down in Alexandria this spring.
Are you really? We are.
We have a pop -up right now.
In Fairfax. In Fairfax, yep, but we're opening in Alexandria.
So I hope you'll come and visit us.
It's going to have a little baking school there and you can come hang out, ask Martin all your questions.
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
I'm so excited. Come on by.
Yeah. You don't need to twist my arm.
Yeah, you got to go visit when they open.
Well, thanks so much for the call, Janine.
Yes. Well, thanks for answering.
I appreciate it. Jessica Badalana and Martin Phillips are co -authors of The King Arthur Baking Company's Big Book of Bread.
We'll be back with more of our conversation and your questions in just a minute.
I'm Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table from APM.
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about you. Around 10 ,000 years ago, humans started farming, which accidentally created a rodent hunting bonanza.
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I'm Francis Lam, and this is the show for curious cooks and eaters.
We're spending the hour today with Jessica Batilana and Martin Phillip, co -authors of the King Arthur Baking Company Big Book of Bread.
And we're taking your baking questions.
Get back to it with them.
them. So obviously, you know, when you go and buy flour, most people buy AP all -purpose flour for all purposes, literally in the name, that's the point.
But there's cake flour, there's pastry flour, there's bread flour.
And my understanding is the difference between all of those, at least in terms of use for the customer, is the protein percentage, like how strong those flours are.
And you mentioned bleaching has to do with the strength through.
Can you tell us a little bit what that means?
And if you have, quote, the wrong flour for a recipe, are there ways you can adapt, adjust, or you just got to go buy that flour the recipe calls for?
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, a few years ago, we started talking about flour IQ, and it was really something that we were trying to do to just bring awareness to folks around the idea that protein content in the U .S. is what we're using as the largest metric to determine sort of grades of flour, like beyond just sort of all -purpose and whole wheat.
Within the all -purpose varieties or the white flour varieties, we have these sort of gradations of protein content.
And the best way that I can sort of describe that is to say that if you think of protein as sort of building material, like it's the thing that we're going to use to build our skyscraper in the case of something like a nice big sourdough loaf, or, you know, we're going to build something nice and low which needs less structural integrity, right?
So in the sourdough environment, if I want to make a nice high -rising loaf, I'm probably going to use bread flour, you know, especially for the sourdoughs that have what we would call like high hydration, you know, where water is a high ratio of the percentage of what sort of formulates the batch, right?
And Martin, the protein level of bread flour is 12 point?
Yeah, just over 12.
yeah just over 12 uh whereas all purposes you know 11 7 um pastry can be down in the eight or nine range even up to 10 in some cases but basically if we go from sort of weakest to strongest it goes something like you know cake and then pastry and then all purpose and then bread if we're just looking at the sort of big categories um and so francis in terms of like can can you substitute, uh, you know, within reason you can make some substitutions.
I wouldn't try and make, you know, my like big open hole tartine style sourdough loaf with, you know, with a cake flour or pastry flour.
Right. But there are some tricks for how I could achieve that using all purpose flour.
Um, a lot of it relates to the sort of moisture holding capacity.
So how much water can that flour hold by weight?
Um, bread flour has more absorption, so it can take more water.
You can have better holes, all of those things.
Some of that's a little bit maybe, we're getting into nerdy territory here, and it's kind of where I like to live, but I understand that some people's eyes may be crossing.
Suffice it to say that white flour exists on a continuum with sort of lower protein up to higher protein, and if you want to make a high bread, use a high protein.
If you're looking at lower things, scones, cookies, shortbreads, things like that, use more tender flour.
Yeah, exactly. I do think it's always sound advice, right, if you're a beginner baker or just not a very experienced baker to stick to what the recipe says.
You may not understand why, but that's all the more reason to sort of follow the guidelines, especially when it comes to baked stuff, because I think there's less wiggle room there than there is when you're cooking something.
something and so you know not only do you not want to use like a cake flour for a loaf of bread but also like you don't want to use bread flour for a cake that you want to be nice and tender like so there's a reason that the recipes i feel like i'm always like follow the recipe like people are like do i really have to you're like yeah follow just follow the recipe and then you know once you have a better understanding of baking particularly bread baking like can you experiment then like sure but you have a sense like you know you're sort of scaffolding yourself to get to a place of like, oh, I
understand what these flours are doing.
And therefore, if I swap in a freshly milled one that has a similar protein level, like chances are good it's gonna work.
But if you don't have that understanding, like just do what the recipe tells you to do.
Just follow orders.
Just follow the recipe.
Hey, okay, let's go to Sarah.
Hey, Sarah, where are you calling from?
Hi there, I'm calling from Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Ah, the wonderful city of Minneapolis.
Cool, what's your question?
My question is, I've heard baking powder Butter and baking soda are essentially the same ingredients, but one has an acid and the other needs an acid added in order to leaven a baked item.
So why are there so many recipes that call for both when sufficient amounts of one could do the trick?
That is a great question.
That's a good question.
I'll take this one.
Sarah's my wife's name, so I feel like, you know, I'm meant to answer Sarah's question here.
I mean, you're right that baking soda needs acid to activate it.
that creates the carbon dioxide.
You know, we all remember that from making the volcanoes in kindergarten, right?
But you only want to use enough soda to neutralize the acid in the recipe because too much soda makes things taste bad.
Like if you've ever bitten into something that has too much baking soda and you're like, what's that weird, gross, metallic flavor?
Yeah, it's terrible.
I hate it so much. And then you're also right, the baking powder is already acidic.
So you don't have to have acid in your recipe be in order for baking powder to work.
Baking soda also, you know, works more quickly.
Baking powder has kind of a slower burn.
But as to your question about, like, why you would use both, I mean, sometimes the amount of soda that you would need to, like, leaven the thing you're trying to leaven, you wouldn't be able to add enough of it without getting that disgusting flavor, right?
So if you, so you add powder, which gives you sort of a little bit of insurance and kind of bolsters the rise.
And conversely, if you use only baking powder, your baked good might taste too acidic because, you know, as we said, it already has, you know, the acidic element added to it.
So that's why you use a mix.
And baking soda also helps with browning, helps with spreading.
And I have some time, I don't know, way back early in my cooking career, I was taught powder for puff, soda for spread, which is partially true.
So I kind of, you know, I kind of bear that in mind.
But that's why some recipes will have both, you know, powder and soda and some you can get away with just one or the other.
So I hope that's helpful.
You were totally on the right track.
That's a really great mnemonic advice, yes.
Yeah. And again, you know, follow the recipe.
If it tells you to use, you know, one or the other, just do what it says.
Absolutely. Thank you.
All right. Yeah, thanks for calling.
Sarah? So Jessica, you mentioned the sort of flavor effect of baking soda, baking powder.
Obviously, you know, bread needs to rise in some way, right?
And sourdough is because it's naturally fermented.
And so like wild yeast in the air creating the carbon dioxide bubbles in your dough.
When you add yeast to a dough, then you're adding the yeast. It's not a wild yeast that you're waiting to reproduce, right?
The yeast will start to eat the sugars and create those bubbles and then if we use these chemical leaveners like baking soda baking powder um they're just chemicals and they create those bubbles i want to get to a recipe that you have both on your site and in the big book of bread it was actually the first king arthur recipe i ever made i am obsessed with it is the english muffin toasting bread and it's so easy and it It is a loaf of bread, but it tastes just like English muffins, which I love.
What makes this recipe work?
What is the English muffin flavor?
And the reason why I'm bringing it up now is because I think there is both yeast and I forget which chemical leavener, but I think baking soda has both of them.
But what makes that distinct English muffin flavor?
That's a good question.
I mean, I do think of it as the flavor of fermentation, right?
right? Like when I think about English muffins, I think about them as being like, you know, even if they're not sourdough as being like a little sour, right?
Like a little acidic.
So I mean, we have a recipe in the book for straight up English muffins.
And I think that natural fermentation will give you that sort of like sour, acidic flavor.
This English muffin toasting bread is like, you know, it's a shortcut bread, right?
Like it is one of the the easiest breads in the book it's a dump and stir essentially which um i think is sort of a relief for a new bread baker it has the baking soda which i think gives you that sort of acidic english muffin flavor but you have the yeast to ensure like a nice rise um the pan gets coated in cornmeal the loaf gets coated in cornmeal so i also think like that sort of sensory experience of like the crusty cornmeal you know with a soft interior is very evocative of um english muffins And it also gives you that nice, like, it's not an open texture, like a holy piece of sourdough bread,
but it does have like an openness to the crumb that you don't get in, you know, some of the other pan breads in the book, for example, that have like, you know, a tighter, you know, maybe softer crumb.
This one's a little bit more open and a little bit more like, you know, a craggy sort of nook and cranny situation.
Yeah. Martin, you were like nodding your head, like vehemently through this.
That means I got it right.
Right. I passed Martin's test. I'm like, is that right?
No, no. Flying colors.
If he's so shaking his head.
I get nothing. But I also know that you are a huge advocate of, hey, if the bread didn't turn out exactly the way you want, try toasting it.
And, you know, this bread is also unique because you're calling it a toasting bread.
You know, I'm sure it's plenty good, fresh, cut a slice on its own.
But there seems to be some sort of magic when you take this bread and toast it or breads in general.
like I feel almost like a stupid person like being like tell me about toast but I can talk for an hour about toast honestly but you were you were putting your hand to your mouth like you were salivating but but what is the magic of toast I just said that oh my god well the magic of toast is simple our next cookbook that's what we'll call it yeah no the magic of toast is simple because you know not everybody realized that toast is a food group right I mean I don't know at least at my house, almost everything gets toasted.
I've even seen my kids take bagels like, you know, within an hour of them coming out of the oven, slice them and throw them in the toaster.
It's just like the toaster adds this textural level that can't be replicated otherwise, you know?
And so to me, that English muffin bread starts great, slices well, put some soft butter on there and a little bit of jam and, you know, you're ready to go.
But if you toast it, you're You're bringing in that Maillard reaction through some additional browning.
You're deepening it.
You're adding that textural crunch that we all want when we get a great English muffin.
And so toasting sort of next levels it.
You know, and there's a little bit of sugar in the dough proper, which, you know, will brown well.
There's a lot of milk.
You know, the hydration in that bread is largely milk.
And so you've got milk solids in there and all of that stuff when it toasts.
It only gets better.
So toast your bread, y 'all.
Let's go to another caller We have Kai calling from my home state of New Jersey Hey Kai Oh hi, I'm so glad to be connected Hi Thank you for the call What's your question?
So my question is about croissants And I'm very happy to say that I have Over the past few months After many failed attempts I have learned how to make somewhat decent croissants And I wanted to know because I've worked so hard for that dough and I wanted to know what else I can make besides chocolate croissants, almond croissants.
I kind of want to use that dough as a base to expand the variety of things I can make in terms of different flavors or different kinds of pastries.
Oh, God, I love that I worked so hard for the dough.
I'm a you know Kai I'm with you I feel like um you know to make a great croissant is a noble goal right I mean it's it's one of those things like people who are into croissants I don't know I feel like we should have our own category in a way it's like because we love the minutiae we love the accuracy we love the beauty of it but we also love the flavor the texture the ways that fermentation is managed the way that the butter works all of these different factors which sort sort of come together at the top of this mountain, which is like Mount Crisant, right?
If you can make it there.
You'll make it anywhere.
You'll make it anywhere, right?
So I feel like before we even get to your question, I feel like you should reach around, you know, to your back and give yourself a pat because getting to the top of that is no joke.
You know, it means that you've worked hard. So in terms of what are some additional things that you can do with laminated doughs.
I mean, in bakeries, the way that we look at laminated dough is sort of as a foundational item.
So we have our, you know, we have our lean doughs, we have our baguettes, we have our sour doughs, we have our laminated doughs in the form of what we call viennoiserie.
And we will make base doughs, we'll make, you know, big batches of that sort of croissant dough, and then we'll use it for literally a thousand things.
You know, it could be cinnamon buns, it could be croissant loaves, like actual loaves of bread made from croissants.
My friend, Roger Gural, used to take a baguette and wrap it inside of croissant dough and then score it at Arcade Bakery in New York City.
The place is incredible.
Incredible. That baguette is unbelievable.
Sorry, go on. Incredible.
It was worth stopping for, for sure.
So, rather than giving you like one sort of answer, I would say that really the world is your oyster if you have a well -laminated, yeasted, you know, croissant base dough.
Some of my favorite things to make with croissants are actually danishes.
I love to cut squares like you would for your pommes chocolat.
And then I fold the point of each square to the middle and then press to sort of make it adhere and then let them proof up.
And then right before baking, I'll add a big tablespoon or so of a pastry cream that I think is delicious.
And then I'll add a streusel to it and maybe a piece of fresh fruit.
and it's so versatile that you can also use that for savory as well.
So, you know, you could put, you know, a duck cell of mushroom in there and then add some beautiful cheese and then after it comes out, maybe you give a little bit of like a tomato confit and some fresh herbs or something like that.
Maybe one more, you know, a trend that I've seen lately is for people to pretzel some of their croissant work or their laminated dough work.
So, when you, you know, know, have your croissant dough made.
You decide on a form that you want.
Maybe you roll it up around a piece of ham and a piece of cheese or something like that.
And then you can brush it with a reduction of, you know, bicarbonate soda and water as you would with maybe a pretzel or something, and then sprinkle it with some sesame seeds.
And you get that like incredible browning and it sort of like is a pretzel version of croissant.
So, you know, there are a couple options that you might consider just for sort of continuing your love i love that wait let me ask you a question so okay a laminated dough a croissant dough is a dough you make by um making a very lean dough and then you basically take a slab of butter and lay it on top right and then they're the same shape and then you fold them together and then you fold them again And then you fold them again.
And so what happens is like, oh, there ends up being like dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of layers of like a little bit of butter, a little bit of dough, a little bit of butter.
And then when you bake it, that butter melts, it creates steam and then puffs the whole thing up.
And that's why you have all these different layers, right?
So that's how it works.
works. So my question is, knowing that it's all about that puff and making sure those layers are still separate until you bake it, like our scraps, like, can you like ball them up or does that ruin the whole effect?
If you like ball them up and roll them out again, can you do other stuff with them or are you basically defeating the purpose?
Yeah. What we would do in a bakery is if we know that we're making Danish, for example, we would take all of our trim you open up your baton of dough your sort of dough block where you have these you know many many layers of dough butter dough we would open it up and then we would put our scrap in there put it back together and then roll it out because in a danish you are not going to be as sort of worried about the structure as i will be when i go to cut open my croissant and see if i have a nice honeycomb structure right and so in a bakery when we potentially can have a fair amount of scrap,
we'll open the block up, we'll put our scrap in, put it back together, and then roll them out.
Now, at home, what I would do is I would just take those end pieces, those small bits that I've trimmed, throw them into a nice Ziploc, press the air out, and then throw them in the freezer.
And then the next time that you go to mix your base dough, just add those scraps in and mix them in.
Bakers do that all the time to sort of...
It's almost like you you know, you have this little remnant and then that goes into the next batch and you just, it incorporates right in.
Because if you think about it, that base dough has ingredients, which are flour, water, salt, yeast, butter, right?
It's all the ingredients that are in the trim, just in a slightly different ratio.
So take that trim, you throw it into the batch next time, and then there's no waste.
And there's like some sort of like, probably like a spiritual thing happening where like the ghosts of croissants pass right now.
No, and I mean, if you think about it, that dough has had some fermentation too.
So you're not only not wasting, you're adding flavor.
You're adding a dough that's got some experience, which is going to just add more flavor.
I like a dough with some experience.
Everyone looks for youth and beauty, but I like a dough with some experience.
I think that's me. You've seen some stuff in some places.
All right, well, thank you for the question, Kai.
Kai. Thank you for the answers, and I look forward to making all the things that you suggested.
Thank you so much. Thanks, Kai.
And congratulations on climbing Croissant Mountain.
The maps are not easy to come by, so you found one and went with it.
I'm very excited. Thank you.
No, it's a pleasure.
Thank you. We're spending the hour with co -authors of the King Arthur Baking Company's Big Book of Bread, Jessica Badalana and Martin Phillip.
More coming up. I'm Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table from APM.
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You're basking on a beach in the Bahamas.
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We're spending this episode talking with two gifted baking teachers, Martin Phillip and Jessica Batalana, co -authors of The Big Book of Bread by the King Arthur Baking Company.
Let's get back to it with them.
I want to ask about the proofing process, because that's very confusing to me.
um it's like kind of how you watch the dough while it sort of rests and as the yeast get to their work okay so we watch like we have watched many thousands of hours of like the great british baking show in our home oh yeah but i feel like every episode it's like a constant string of the judges saying like that's overproofed that's underproofed that's overproofed that's underproofed what do those things mean and and how do you know when something's overproofed or or something's under proofed?
That's a super, super good question.
And it's one of those bits of like empirical knowledge that I think that it takes time to sort of come around to, you know?
The way that I would describe proofing is as the final stage before breads or rolls or anything leavened goes into the oven, right?
It's like the penultimate stage of the baking process.
process. And the quantity of proof that you want to have on any given item varies by product.
And I think that's one of the things that is challenging is that what determines a full level of proof on my challah is different than what might put, you know, my rolls or my ciabatta or my pan de cristal or another bread into that same category or my baguettes to be sure, right?
You know, baguettes may not proof as far as something that's in a pan, for example, that has the support of the pan and won't be scored.
You want it to be nice and high before it goes into the oven.
And so I think maybe that's where some of the confusion comes in is just the variability.
I think this is a major pain point.
Actually, I think it's a pain point that people don't even realize is a pain point.
And I say this because when Martin and Mellie and I were working on this bread book, I tested all the recipes in my home kitchen, and I'm not the baker that they are.
Like I bake lowercase B, they're capital B bakers.
And so, you know, I was baking these breads in my kitchen here in Maine in the winter.
And I just was like struggling.
I sent all these text messages and photos.
I'm like, it's not rising.
The dough is not moving.
Like it's supposed to do this.
It's not happening.
And, you know, we realized it's because I'm like way too abstemious with the heat in my house.
Like my kitchen was just not at the optimal like temperature for proofing.
and so that's the other piece of it and then i found a hack that fixed it which martin's gonna like wince when i say this to all the listeners out there but i now proof my bread in my in the winter in my dryer huh so i run my dryer for a little while with or without clothes doesn't matter and then i just set my proofing either like when i bulk fermenting my dough or once it's in the pan or like you know about ready to go in the oven i just put it in you know my by descending in temperature drier.
And it's a perfect proofing box.
You know, proofing boxes.
Normal people will buy proofing boxes or like dough, you know, rising mats.
But once I sort of, like, understood that temperature was a part of proofing, like that to me, you know, because I think old bread recipes say, like, put in a warm place until doubled in size.
Well, like, how warm?
You know, I don't like – I don't know what doubled in size means.
Well, and that's the other thing.
yeah yeah if something is three inches tall you don't wait till it becomes six inches tall that's like that's like 12 exercise because that's not well yeah exactly and when we were talking about the pan breads especially like we have in the book like you know we tell you how high over the edge of the pan it should rise like should rise one inch over the lip of the pan and i think i might have even left in the book manuscript like don't guess measure it like get out a ruler and actually hold it next to the pan and look like, cause I'm very guilty of being like, yeah, close enough.
Like I do it with like money.
I do it with size. I'm like, yeah.
And I think, yeah, exactly.
You know? Um, so I do encourage people to actually like look for those visual cues and, and, you know, there's visual cues beyond the pans.
It's like, you know, does your dough look happy?
Like, is it jiggly like a marshmallow when you shake it?
Like all of those things, you know you start to like develop your sort of spidey sense um for that but until you do develop it it's like nice to have those cues like written into a recipe or written into a book to kind of like guide you along your way yeah okay but then let's go to the over and under uh sort of aspect if you eat something you're like wow that was overproofed or you eat something and go that was underproofed what does that mean like what does the overproofed thing taste like what does the underproof thing taste like?
That's a great question because the judgment of underproof versus overproof is entirely, again, dependent on the type of bread that you're making.
So if it's collapsed, then you're obviously overproofed.
If it looks tight and it's sort of blown seams out where it tried to expand, that may be a sign that you're looking at something that's underproofed.
But in terms of flavor, my thing is that mostly home bakers are under Under -fermenting.
Most of the time, the sort of air is on the side of under -fermentation because, and this gets to Jessica's point a little bit, around managing fermentation.
Really, you want to remember that while that dough is working, while it's rising, first rise, second rise, final proof, whatever it is, you want to create an environment where the dough feels nurtured, supported, sort of cheered on as it goes to work.
And for doughs, what we're talking about is really like mid 70s, you know, low to mid 70s, even up to say 78 degrees or 80 degrees.
In that zone, you've got a balance between the ways which the dough will develop flavor and also gas, right?
It will rise. When you get up, you know, into the 80s and high 80s into the low 90s, gas production will outrun flavor production.
And then you have this sort of imbalance.
So in that situation, you can get into overproofing.
But what I would say is that generally speaking at home, home bakers tend to under ferment during what we call bolt fermentation, which is before shaping.
And then after shaping, you just want to continue to nurture, make sure that the dough's in a moist environment and able to rise to its sort of full potential.
Let's go to another caller we have. This is Charlotte.
Hi, Charlotte. Hi, how are you?
Great, thanks. How are you?
Where are you calling from?
I'm calling from Los Angeles.
Well, thanks for the call.
And what's your question?
My question is what type of gluten -free flour makes best focaccia?
Okay, I'm not going to say anything about the fact that the one caller we have from Los Angeles is asking about gluten -free bread.
That's slightly on brand, but that's fine.
I know. Something we should learn about anyway.
So what kind of gluten -free flour makes the best focaccia?
Yes. Yeah, it's a good question.
But before we get to that, Charlotte, are you making other things gluten -free?
Like is everything gluten -free?
Have you done some gluten -free baking?
Tell me about your experience or what you're doing for baking.
Yeah, I'm mostly baking like muffins or cookies, that sort of thing, and have found that those are easier with gluten -free flour mixes boxes, but have not really had a lot of success or have tried very many times to make breads with gluten -free flours.
Yeah, it's challenging, right?
The reason that it's challenging is that, you know, we're talking about flour types and we're saying, you know, lower protein makes flat things.
That's great. Higher protein supports higher rise.
And, you know, in the scheme of things, focaccia is one of those breads that we want to be high rising, right?
Its sort of signature characteristics are open structure, high rising, puffy, crisp, all of those things.
And so when we remove the gluten, which is sort of the structural material that we're literally using to build this like bread skyscraper, things get challenging.
Things do get challenging.
challenging, um, because of the variability between, so each company like King Arthur, we have our own blend of flours that we use to compose our, you know, for example, like gluten free red flour, for example.
Right. And if you go to another company, the flours that they're going to choose for that product are going to change.
And so within the marketplace, it's not not like we have any sort of standard across between companies for making that flour.
And so, you know, my recommendation would be if a company has a gluten -free bread flour, then I would use their focaccia recipe, basically.
Or, you know, if you're going to make focaccia and you have like the King Arthur, you know, gluten -free bread flour, for example, then I would use our recipe because the quantity of water, And maybe this is getting too nerdy, and so I apologize.
But the quantity of water required for different blends of gluten -free flours will change by company.
There's no standard. And so if you take the quantity of water that one recipe has and then use another gluten -free flour to produce that, you may find yourself with too much hydration, too much moisture, a dough that just doesn't move in the way that you're hoping for.
And so if a company has a gluten -free flour, use the recipe that they have for their focaccia and plenty of olive oil and coarse salt, and I think you'll be happy.
Amazing. Thank you so much. That's really helpful.
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
Send us a picture. Yeah, for sure.
Thank you so much. Well, thanks for the call, Charlotte.
Actually, while we're talking about gluten -free things, it reminds me of another recipe you have in the book, which I've never heard of, super interested in.
It's the masa honey toasting bread.
Oh, yeah. And masa is corn dough, is the corn dough that you make corn tortillas out of.
And it's not a gluten -free bread, but you take masa and fold it into a dough for a bread.
That sounds super interesting.
How did you come up with that?
Man, I think that was the creation of our co -author, Melanie.
Melanie, we all love the sort of aroma and flavor of masa, you know, and thinking about it like functionally, right?
Like it doesn't have the gluten that a wheat flour has.
So, you know, to make an all masa bread, well, I mean, that's a tortilla, right?
But, you know, the idea of like, could we use a portion?
And what portion of, you know, masa could we get into a bread dough for a pan loaf where it would still have like that corny sort of fragrance, that beautiful color, but would still bake and slice like, you know, a beautiful sandwich loaf.
When you toast slice of that, it gets this like very thin sort of crisp crust. And it really like highlights the aroma of toasted corn.
And I love that bread so much. And it's got some honey in the dough too.
Best corn flavor of any bread I've ever had.
That's amazing. anything i've eaten a lot of bread with corn in it and that that one i mean to me it's like i'm in l you know east la and we're like tamale hopping you know we're like going from place to place eating tamales and it's like that one with the corn and honey in it it to me it's like those elements but in a pan loaf form it's really not to be missed that's cool so we've mentioned a pan loaves um and i you know it's funny because i think when people talk about oh hey i started baking bread at home like a lot of people are talking about sourdough and how psyched people have been to you
know get you know in their sourdough lifestyle it's kind of a lifestyle because you're basically um creating like a pet you now have to like feed and nurture with the sourdough starter you're constantly having to feed it um but a lot of the pan loaves are yeasted breads or something you can make in an afternoon there's something you can make even in a few hours and a few cases and I never thought about this but making bread in a pan is actually probably a lot easier for beginners than a sourdough that you have to you know form the loaf or there's just a lot less you have to do you kind of like
can just drop it in the pan and then put it in the oven eventually I mean even a sourdough loaf baked in a pan is easier because the pan is like providing structure yeah sure right right so thinking of like you know know, there's like a hundred, 125, I think recipes in the book.
What are some recipes that you really recommend for folks who are more in the beginner side of their bread learning?
You know, we spent a lot of time thinking about how to put together a bread book that would feel like a really comprehensive resource for, for bakers, like no matter where they were coming from, like there are lots of sourdough exclusive bread books out there.
And, you know, right from from the very start, we were like, we don't want to do an only sourdough bread because there are lots of beautiful breads out there.
And sourdough bread, I think while very trendy and very delicious, it's not the only delicious bread out there.
And it's not a morally superior type of bread, right?
I think people are like, I make sourdough.
I don't make a yeasted loaf, which is ridiculous.
I mean, they're both yeast, right?
So I think you want to find find recipes that sort of meet you where you are.
You know, the book sort of leads off with a very robust section about like techniques and those techniques basically get applied throughout the book.
So I feel like you can practice these techniques on simpler breads.
But then as you start to make quote unquote more complex breads, you're like, oh, hey, I know how to do that.
And you can continue to sort of like deepen and evolve your skills as you work your way, you know through baking projects through the book love that let me ask you one last question what are your tips for bread storage does it depend on the loaf do you just go this one can really last two weeks and I guess what I'm really driving at is at what point do you put a bread in the refrigerator oh Francis stop it everybody knows that the best place to store bread is in your belly, Francis.
Yeah, so there are a lot of considerations.
Some of them relate to, you know, what is the bread type?
Is it something that's enriched like a challah or something like that?
Is it a long skinny baguette that's got a lot of sort of exposure to air and it's going to pretty quickly?
Is it a dense German sourdough loaf like our full corn or something like that that's, you know, could last for probably a year on your counter as long as it had a little bit of plastic around it I'm not exaggerating or even like the some of the breads with fruits and things like that in them so when do you put it in the fridge the truth for me is is never it either stays on the counter and if it's you know a dry season make sure that you loosely wrap it in something like a plastic bag or some other thing that's moisture proof or you put it into the freezer and the reason for that is that in the fridge
it actually stales more quickly than it will on the counter.
You know, we have this thing called starch retrogradation where the starches will sort of, the bread crumb will actually stale more quickly at those temps.
So, you know, slice it up, throw it in your freezer, pull out a slice as you need it and pop it in the toaster and you're good to go.
Or put it on your bench and open to the part of the book that Jessica wrote and Melanie too called, you know, things to do with bread.
And it's basically like, okay, I've got some remnants.
What do I do? Okay.
Here's a bread pudding.
Here's a salad. Here is, you know, here are a hundred other the things that you can do.
So that was a fun section to write.
I mean, and, and it spoke to a real hazard of writing this book.
Like we had a lot of bread kicking around and, you know, and I think if you're a bread baker, you know, you get enthusiastic, right.
And you're like, oh, I baked two loaves of bread.
And then it's like, you're looking at your family of four, like, okay, it's go time.
I also think one like little sort of dumb tip, but I think is, is helpful.
If you think like, I'm going to eat this loaf of bread, my family's going to eat this loaf of bread in the next few days.
Right. So I'm not, I don't want to freeze it.
I'm going to leave it out.
You know, you start slicing not from the end, but from the middle, right?
So you take, you cut the bread in half and you take your first slice out of the middle and then you push those two ends together.
So the cut sides are now touching one another.
That crust forms like a nice barrier to prevent the bread from drying out.
And I think that will slow the staling process too.
And that's what you want to do when you bake a loaf of bread.
Anyway, you want to cut it in half and just like, just to see like how to work out.
So well, thank you guys so much for the time this is a lot of fun for me oh such a treat um i hope we get to break bread together real soon francis i love that yeah i appreciate this time jessica botulana is staff editor at the king arthur baking company and martin phillip is their head bread baker together with melanie wanders they are the authors of a big book of bread and they left us with a recipe for that masa honey toasting bread we talked about find it at splendidtable .org and while you're there you You can win a copy of some amazing new cookbooks this month just by signing up for our free
newsletter, Weeknight Kitchen.
Every Wednesday, you'll get a recipe sent straight to your email from some of the best people working in food today.
Go to SplendidTable .org slash giveaway and have a great week.
We'll talk to you soon.
APM Studios are run by Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith.
The Splendid Table was created by Sally Swift and Lynn Rosetta Kasper, and it's made each week by technical producer Jennifer Lupke, producer Erica Romero, digital producer James Napoli, and managing producer Sally Swift. I'm Francis Lam, and this is APM Studios.
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