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Optimal minimal.
Like this attitude, I can run flat out
for a half mile before my hands start shaking.
So now I'll see you close some questions.
Now I just see you in a perfect time.
What if I did the hour?
I'm a cybernetic organism living this show
where metal and post gore.
Ladies and gentlemen, Ferris Show.
Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs.
This is Tim Ferris.
Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show
where it is my job to sit down with world class performers
from every field imaginable to tease out the habits,
routines, favorite books and so on that you can apply
and test in your own lives.
This episode is a two for one
and that's because the podcast recently hit
its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about
and past one billion downloads.
To celebrate, I've curated some of the best of the best.
Some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes
over the last decade.
I could not be more excited to give you
these super combo episodes.
And internally we've been calling these the super combo
episodes because my goal is to encourage you to yes,
enjoy the household names, the super famous folks,
but to also introduce you to lesser known people,
I consider stars.
These are people who have transformed my life
and I feel like they can do the same for many of you.
Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle.
Perhaps you missed an episode.
Just trust me on this one.
We went to great pains to put these pairings together.
And for the bios of all guests,
you can find that and more at Tim.log slash combo.
And now without further ado, please enjoy
and thank you for listening.
First up, Dr. Jane Goodall, English primatologist
and anthropologist,
considered the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees
and founder of the Jane Goodall Institute
and the Roots and Shoots Program,
building a better tomorrow by empowering young people
to affect positive change in their communities.
You can find Dr. Goodall on Twitter and Instagram
at Jane Goodall INST.
I would love just to spend a moment
and we don't have to spend a lot of time on this,
but discussing Lewis Leakey.
And I've read various accounts of how you connected
with him, but I'd like to hear it directly from you.
And perhaps you could describe what it was that he saw in you,
but that initial contact and how that came to be
is of great interest to me.
So if you could speak to that, I would appreciate it.
Okay, well, I'd been staying with my friend
for about, we'd suppose, a couple of months.
And somebody said to me, he had a party.
He feel interested in animals.
He really should meet Lewis Leakey.
He was curator at that time of the natural history museum.
But of course, he's best known as a very eminent paleontologist.
He spent his life with his second wife, Mary Leakey,
searching for the fossils of Stone Age,
and there's stills across Africa.
I was very shy back then that I rang the museum
and said, I'd love to make an appointment to meet Dr. Leakey.
And a boy said, I'm Leakey, what do you want?
But anyway, and I was so passionate about animals.
Like anyway, I went to see him and he took me all around.
He asked me many questions about the stuffed animals
that were there.
And I think he was impressed that because I'd read
everything I could about Africa,
I could answer so many of these questions.
Well, I mentioned earlier that boring secretarial course
that I did.
Two days before I met Leakey, his secretary had suddenly quit.
He needed a secretary.
And there I was, he'd never known in this life.
So I'm suddenly surrounded by people
who can answer all my questions about the mammals
and the birds and the reptiles and the amphibians,
the insects, the plants.
It was heaven.
Oh, he was Leakey's.
What did he see in me?
He had a feeling that women made better observers.
He thought they were more patient.
He also wanted somebody to go and study chimpanzees
because of his interest in human evolution.
So the fossils of early man that he was uncovering
can tell a lot from that fossil,
whether the creature walked upright
and muscle attachments, the wear of the tooth
shows you roughly the kind of diet
but behavior doesn't fossilize.
So he reckoned there was an ape-like human-like
common ancestor about six million years ago,
just now generally accepted.
And that he thought, well, if Jane finds behavior
and chimps and humans today that is similar or the same,
maybe it came directly from the common ancestor
and has been with us through our long separate
evolutionary journeys, in which case
he could have a better way of imagining
how his early humans used to behave.
So he wanted a mind uncluttered by the reductionist thinking
of the animal behavior people at the time.
It was a very new science.
They were anxious to make it a hard science,
which it shouldn't be.
And so the fact I hadn't been to college was a plus
and the fact that I was a woman was a plus.
So I was just fishin' it, not key.
He seems to have picked the winning lottery ticket
or at least a very formidable combination of traits
and if we take that mention of patience
or his belief that in part women make better observers
because of more patience,
if we flash forward then to you landing in Gombe,
stream national park, Tanzania,
from getting the pronunciation correct.
I was watching the first Nat Geo,
or maybe not the first, but one of the more recent
Nat Geo documentaries about you, title Jane.
And in that, and also in your writing,
I believe it took something like five months
of constant effort and having chimpanzees flee
from your presence to finally be what we might call accepted.
And I've two questions related to that.
The first is, what do you think made the difference?
Why did they go from fleeing to accepting?
And second is when you first really had the opportunity
to look deeply into a chimpanzee's eyes.
What did you see and just as importantly,
what did you feel?
Well, the acceptance in the movie
sort of looked just as they suddenly accepted me.
It wasn't like that. It was very gradual.
And it was partly thanks to this one male
who began to lose his fear much ahead of the others.
My called him David Graeby,
he said, a lovely white beard.
And because he began to let me get closer
and closer, I think if I came to a group in the forest
and he was with that group,
because they separated into separate small groups
and sometimes they learned.
But if he was there, then the others were ready to run
but he was sitting calmly.
And I suppose that made them feel
well she can't be so dangerous after all.
So gradually I could get closer.
And the first time I came close to a group
that didn't run away, I think,
was one of the proudest moments of my life.
You know, it made it just in time
for the six months money ran out.
So the fact that I'd seen David Graeby
and use and make tools, the Pishka termites,
thought to be something only humans were capable of.
That's what brought the geographic invite
to the beginning, six months after the study began.
They agreed to go on funding it.
It was David Graebyer, the first chimpanzee
that you were able to get close enough
to sort of connect eye to eye with.
Definitely.
What did you see in feel when you had that opportunity?
Well, I saw that I was looking to the eyes
of a thinking-feeling being.
And it was not so surprising as you might think
because I'd always felt that animals
were thinking-feeling-beans.
But with a chimpanzee, they're so like us,
behaviorally and biologically,
that it's not like looking at another human.
It's different and I can't explain how it's different,
but it was a very magical moment
because he looked back.
That was the thing.
He didn't run, he just sat there and looked back at me.
I would love to ask questions
about what we might learn and what perhaps you've learned
about human nature or even questions
that have been raised in your interactions
and observations of chimpanzees.
And you mentioned it briefly,
but it's hard to overstate just how incredible
and shocking and world-shattering for many people.
It was that you observed chimpanzees,
not just using tools, but constructing tools
for, in this case, consuming term.
I mean, it made news around the world.
You had many other observations, I believe also,
that the belief that chimpanzees were purely vegetarians.
Also, you observed not to be the case
with their consumption of other primates exactly.
And you noted, and I know this was a real,
in some eyes, a faux pas at the time,
real personalities, and you might have been accused
of anthropomorphism at all these things.
But you observed different personalities
in different chimpanzees.
And I thought perhaps we could just start with a story.
And that is the story of old man and Mark Kusano,
if I'm getting the pronunciation right.
And then I have questions about a few other chimpanzees
you personally had quite a bit of interaction with.
Mark Kusano and Old Man, so on an island
in line countries, a re-inploritor.
And Old Man had been in a medical research lab.
He'd been captured from the wild, his mother was shot.
And he was called Old Man because an infant chimpanzee
distressed and frightened.
They have wrinkled faces and they huddle only.
They don't look very old.
And he was lucky, he was about 12.
And for some reason he was now more used to the lab.
And he was put on an island with three females,
two of them from medical research, one from a searchers.
And Mark Kusano was employed to look after them.
And he was told, don't go anywhere near them,
they're vicious, they hate people.
It might stronger than you, they'll kill you.
So he threw food from his little paddle boat
onto the island.
And began watching them, and a baby was born,
so Old Man was the father.
And he felt, these are such amazing beings.
I must have some kind of relationship with them
if I'm to look after them.
So began going closer and closer.
One day he held out a banana in his hand.
When Old Man took it, he said, I know how you felt
when David went banana from you.
When they went onto the island, one day he groomed Old Man
one day they played an Old Man.
And they became basically little friendship.
And then one day Mark slipped it to being raining,
fell flat on his face.
Unfortunately, it's right in this infant
who is the another Old Man's life.
Old Man needs to protect him and carry him and share food.
Well, the mother hearing her child scream,
raced and attacked Mark biting into his neck.
The other two females to support her ran in,
one bit his rest, one bit his leg.
And Mark thought, well, how am I going to get away from them?
Because it might stronger than us.
He looked up, he saw Old Man thundering across the island
with a furious scour on his face.
And he thought his time had come to die
and come to protect his precious infant.
But what Old Man did was to pull those three screaming
roused females off Mark and keep them away
while Mark drank himself to safety.
And I met Mark when he came out of hospital.
He said, no question.
Old Man saved my life.
And so you know, I always think if a chimpanzee
who's been abused by people can reach out
to help a human friend in time up need,
then surely re with our greater capacity of compassion
can do the same to the chimpanzees
in that time of need.
Thank you for telling that story.
To what extent if we take an example
from your personal experience,
and I know very little about Frodo,
but Frodo seems to have been amongst the chimpanzees
you had exposure to, one of the more aggressive.
But I'd love to hear you speak to this.
And how would you explain the variance among chimpanzees?
Was it also in a peer to be innate?
Did it seem to stem from some type of trauma?
How did you think about that and perhaps Frodo specifically?
Well, they're all different.
Some are much more aggressive than others,
just like we are.
And Frodo was spoiled.
He was a spoiled brat.
His mother was the highest ranking female
for the time, Peafie.
He had one older brother who always came to his defense
as did Peafie.
And so he always got his own way.
And he was a real bully.
So it's true, young ones playing.
Same age as him, perhaps.
And he came to join them.
They would stop playing immediately
because they knew if he entered the game,
he'd suddenly become rough and cause one of them to be hurt.
So it wasn't just humans feel the systems,
and especially me, that he targeted
with his displays, hitting over, dragging.
I got it worst of all.
I was stamped upon none.
But he was not trying really to hurt me.
He was trying to assert his dominance.
And I guess they don't realize quite how strong they are.
I mean, if he wanted to kill me,
I wouldn't be speaking to you now, that's for sure.
Is the assertion of dominance, and I don't know how much
of this is conscious, and I don't know how one would even
know, but is that a conscious, or potentially conscious,
political maneuver to get better access to resources
and so on, or is it really just a conditioned behavior
based on, as you said, being spoiled,
and that just being some type of primitive drive
that they have, and perhaps even we have.
No, because Frodo's brother, before him,
became the top-ranking male.
And Freud had a very different character.
He was reflective.
He became dominant not through aggression,
but through being smart.
Some of the males get to the top by share aggression,
by bullying, by swaggering about, waving their arms.
They remind me so much of some human politicians.
It's not true.
But there are other males who get to the top by skillfully
forming alliances, and they only tackle a higher ranking male
when their allies there to support them.
And then there are some who just persist.
They persist in charging towards groups of superior males
who are grooming each other, startling them
so that they run away.
And in the end, this was globbled into the end.
I think the other male, so he's just
going to go on doing this, all right, let's just let him
get to the top.
We don't care anymore.
That's how it's seen.
And he ran 10 years, and he was small.
And he wasn't very aggressive at all.
I recall a few years ago speaking with a friend of mine
who I consider to be a good father, a good parent.
And I asked him what advice he would have for someone
like me, considering having children.
I have none of my own yet.
And his advice he had a number of pieces of advice,
but his first was teacher children to be optimists.
And it seemed like a precursor or a prerequisite
for so many other things.
And I'm.
